ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2013
I have run with more conquerors than I care to count. They have all been squishy.
If you've managed to overcome that, great.
I've never seen it.
My Guardian Fighter is a Protector. Two close friends are Tacticians.
Both Tacticians were Conquerors which switched after determining Conquerors are inferior to the other two trees.
One was a die hard conqueror fan who kept saying he would get me to switch to conqueror, I ended up getting him to switch to Tactician by being far, far superior in threat generation.
If you think Conquerors are the only viable build you are very much mistaken.
And the ability to maintain threat is much easier on a tactician and protector. That does not mean conqueror isn't viable but it's far less viable in my experience. For those who think otherwise I invite you to try protector or tactician or try running a dungeon with one.
ambis, instead jumping to the conclusion that the gf was inferior because of his tree choice, how but actually laying out your method for for the rest of our education? the poster never once mention that it was the GF that was dying for all you know he could of been the last one standing, and the other classes wipe on the boss.
both your comments are BS and useless.
Enhanced Mark (a Power) - at max lvl builds generates passive threat to marked targets + an additional 99% when striking a marked target
Potent Challenges (heroic feat) - You generate 15% more threat
These are 2 skills accessible to all for a 114% additional threat generation plus what ever threat is generated automatically while the target marked. your "passive" threat still require physical damage to be dealt. I'd bet you a nice hard lash from a conqueror is still superior to any additional threat either of the 2 other trees can generate. the other trees have their benefits but one of those benefits is not threat generation. fact is a conqueror can generate more threat with less attack than the other trees. with that said GFs may need to understand the trade off in survivability or squad support which is what protector and tactician offer. Protector has 1 skill with additional threat boost that's 10% to enforce threat. Tactician has 2, Battle trample 25% of weapon damage as threat to mobs effected as by trample the fallen and a 20% threat increase to lunging strike. neither of these are game changers. so dont try to mislead with your false reasoning that either of these 2 paths have an easier time at aggro control.
You try to make it sound like protectors are so big and bad at soaking up damage, which i am sure probably isn't the case, and by the way 2 great feats in the protector tree are 5% deflect and +5 armor class are also the first 2, easily taken by a conqueror if he wants since they are the first 2 feats in the lower row. its easy enough for a conqueror to have similar or at least more that adequate survivability from gear.
for me the key to having fun playing a conqueror and being successful in pve is simple - dont get hit - you may not be the most mobile class but you still are mobile so avoid what you can. movement and positioning goes along way, when i am kiting mobs i jump alot i find its fast to get away from red circles and damage many situations than turning your back and running or backing away with your shield up for it to get diminished or broken then moments later you could really use it. try it the next time you kiting a large group turn around and hop thru the middle of them like a rabbit, as you approach the mobs they are going start to cast, you jump hop on by leaving them stuck in the animation and giving yourself a bit of room to play when they catch up just jump by again works great for mobs with red circles like the ones in Karr. mobs wit frontal attacks like in spell i tend to side step them a lot more instead of of trying to jump pass forcing them to use their attacks as you maneuver your way around them. Think of the mobs as bulls and you are the matador, evade and watch the bull fly by, fun til that bull clips you and starts to gore your *** but even then you general get out of bad situation easier that if you stand and take it head on. As you move always try to keep your camera position towards the mobs as much as possible so if something does go wrong you just have to hit the block and you are already facing the incoming damage, i assign block to my right mouse button i so i can react quicker than reaching for shift.
as for marking mobs attacking the group while kiting tab mark should be fine as long as you have enhanced mark slotted it generally is strong enough even if the mob took a hit, if you have to go to psychically grab a mob or 2 off a teammate i use into the fray to put some distance between me and the pack mark the mobs as i approach and either use front line surge or threatening rush, i opt for front line surge because sometimes mobs from the pack get in front you as you are about to rush or if the mob is close to the boss and you lock on the boss instead plus you can hit it at range and not run the risk of taking the mob pack too close to anyone else. If your teammate accidentally or is silly enough to keep hitting the mob a quick cleave or two on a mark target should be enough, i try not to use enforced threat especially around the boss because i usually try to keep them marked for the damage debuff and i dont want him to aggro me and i dont like that lost of momentum. DC and CWs should be your priority when catching mobs, CW often end up being your priority whether it be from not switching out aoe skills for single target on the boss or they panic when they see a mob coming at them and attack it instead of dodging/kiting.
Men and their BS. One person say they can use t1 gear and rank 5 enchants/no wipe and another say just stand in as. lol
Video or it didn't happen.:)
Thank you for this. Theres always some internet hero, that will always claim something incredible.
Karrundax too hard? Dude i soloed the whole dungeoun naked and just dodging! So easy!
Lol......
No need for quotes anymore. Lost City's eyes are wide open now. Thank god!b:victory
I don't know about anyone else's playstyle but I know for a fact that the kiting strategy that inthefade462 describes works 100% of the time for both the first and 2nd bosses with a GF in the group.
GF's can kite in any gear and any spec and should be very familiar with it from other boss encounters. Therefore, GS is almost irrelevant.
The 2nd boss is actually much easier than the first boss because the ranged adds when the giant appears on the first boss are very powerful and require a CW under protection of a DC to keep them busy (Shard and Steal Time being particuarly useful). Also, any class with aoe can kite on the 2nd boss. It does not have to be the GF, but GF with the right Powers are the strongest kiters in the game.
Note. If you have enough dps, you can still (i.e. post patch) just nuke both of those bosses and not worry about fight mechanics.
I have run with more conquerors than I care to count. They have all been squishy.
If you've managed to overcome that, great.
I've never seen it.
My Guardian Fighter is a Protector. Two close friends are Tacticians.
Both Tacticians were Conquerors which switched after determining Conquerors are inferior to the other two trees.
One was a die hard conqueror fan who kept saying he would get me to switch to conqueror, I ended up getting him to switch to Tactician by being far, far superior in threat generation.
If you think Conquerors are the only viable build you are very much mistaken.
And the ability to maintain threat is much easier on a tactician and protector. That does not mean conqueror isn't viable but it's far less viable in my experience. For those who think otherwise I invite you to try protector or tactician or try running a dungeon with one.
I think we disagree on the importance of threat generation in endgame content. I even discarded Potent Challenge a while ago and have no threat issues whatsoever the way I run dungeons.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Thank you for this. Theres always some internet hero, that will always claim something incredible.
Karrundax too hard? Dude i soloed the whole dungeoun naked and just dodging! So easy!
Lol......
Actually...
For the longest time their was a console command that made you permanently dodge everything, and once enabled it lasted until you zoned or manually dodged. So yes, every dungeon has been solo'd by basically naked characters dodging everything :P
Reported it repeatedly and they didn't fix it until a few weeks ago (well after FotF was released). I want to say ppl got banned for using it in PVP but only because they made it obvious by leaving it on all the time. people thought there was some kind of "dodge" bug, all kinds of theories about weird power combinations that would "bug people out" and give them the dodge immunity for way "longer than normal". People argued that it was totally an accident/coincidence/etc and you couldn't blame players for being "lucky" and getting the dodge bug, etc etc. ofc that was bs, it was a console command.
if ads are a problem to manage with 3 just do it with 4. boss only needs one.
it s not fast but better then wiping in your case.
can t believe it s so hard for your groups gs, but learned the gs uselessness(if that s a word) the hard way a long time ago.
actualy with blues better then purps if you want to focus a stat, weapon and armor enchants do not even count for the gs.
classes gs are faulty and admitted, but not fixed.
it should be removed till it s fixed, but ok, then again it still doesn t mean anything.
choice of powers count along also, same goes for repair kits and hp pots hehe.
some are just to cheap to bring any.
have to quote myself, how lovely
forgot to say ofcourse people don`t spec well ofcourse too.
so feats count along too for a big part.
but anyway, why bother on a dying game.
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't know about anyone else's playstyle but I know for a fact that the kiting strategy that inthefade462 describes works 100% of the time for both the first and 2nd bosses with a GF in the group.
GF's can kite in any gear and any spec and should be very familiar with it from other boss encounters. Therefore, GS is almost irrelevant.
The 2nd boss is actually much easier than the first boss because the ranged adds when the giant appears on the first boss are very powerful and require a CW under protection of a DC to keep them busy (Shard and Steal Time being particuarly useful). Also, any class with aoe can kite on the 2nd boss. It does not have to be the GF, but GF with the right Powers are the strongest kiters in the game.
Note. If you have enough dps, you can still (i.e. post patch) just nuke both of those bosses and not worry about fight mechanics.
Frankly, the "run in a circle" mechanics for the FH and Karru fights are the reason I don't take my GF out to those dungeons anymore. I'd rather grab my CW and just burn everything with AOE.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Frankly, the "run in a circle" mechanics for the FH and Karru fights are the reason I don't take my GF out to those dungeons anymore. I'd rather grab my CW and just burn everything with AOE.
Funny cus those are the only dungeons i ever run on my GF. The only challenging thing on a GF is kiting adds. I mean it's not hard but if you are in an undergeared party its a test of endurance. I've kited all adds on FH for 40 minutes straight because party basically wiped on the first 2 boss aoes and the only ones left were an undergeared TR and gwf on boss. Me and the gwf split the 4 archers and just tanked them while tr and gwf killed boss. You can say "shoulda just wiped and started over" but these same people kept wiping, like they did not understand the concept that you should not be standing in red.
Theres only so many 20min cn/mc runs you can do before sht just gets old and you just need to pug with some bads, just to change things up.
Theres only so many 20min cn/mc runs you can do before sht just gets old and you just need to pug with some bads, just to change things up.
That's the funniest thing I read.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
Well I finally got to see the "improved" Karru few times. We went in with 3 guys that are pretty geared and knowledgeable and play together often, and 2 guys from /lfg.
1st boss: ****loads of red. Since we usually have at least 2xHV, we most of the times stack on bosses. This had so much red zones around it we wiped 2 times. 3rd time everybody kept running back so we kinda zerged it to death.
2nd boss: for some reason, this was less annoying and we killed it fast. There was a new "safe" zone which we decided it's not worth our time and we did it legit.
My conclusion?
Undoable at 8300 GS. Doable if you have good GF that can stay alive, good CWs that can constantly CC adds and have HV set to shorten the encounter.
As long as this instance is not doable at proposed GS with people from queue, it means it's bad design for me. Doesn't have to be easily doable, but should be OK after a few wipes. At 8300 GS players are so fragile and their damage output so low, there's no way it can be done.
As long as this instance is not doable at proposed GS with people from queue, it means it's bad design for me. Doesn't have to be easily doable, but should be OK after a few wipes. At 8300 GS players are so fragile and their damage output so low, there's no way it can be done.
You talk design now? You get Users to design dungeons...
Comments
If you've managed to overcome that, great.
I've never seen it.
My Guardian Fighter is a Protector. Two close friends are Tacticians.
Both Tacticians were Conquerors which switched after determining Conquerors are inferior to the other two trees.
One was a die hard conqueror fan who kept saying he would get me to switch to conqueror, I ended up getting him to switch to Tactician by being far, far superior in threat generation.
If you think Conquerors are the only viable build you are very much mistaken.
And the ability to maintain threat is much easier on a tactician and protector. That does not mean conqueror isn't viable but it's far less viable in my experience. For those who think otherwise I invite you to try protector or tactician or try running a dungeon with one.
both your comments are BS and useless.
Enhanced Mark (a Power) - at max lvl builds generates passive threat to marked targets + an additional 99% when striking a marked target
Potent Challenges (heroic feat) - You generate 15% more threat
These are 2 skills accessible to all for a 114% additional threat generation plus what ever threat is generated automatically while the target marked. your "passive" threat still require physical damage to be dealt. I'd bet you a nice hard lash from a conqueror is still superior to any additional threat either of the 2 other trees can generate. the other trees have their benefits but one of those benefits is not threat generation. fact is a conqueror can generate more threat with less attack than the other trees. with that said GFs may need to understand the trade off in survivability or squad support which is what protector and tactician offer. Protector has 1 skill with additional threat boost that's 10% to enforce threat. Tactician has 2, Battle trample 25% of weapon damage as threat to mobs effected as by trample the fallen and a 20% threat increase to lunging strike. neither of these are game changers. so dont try to mislead with your false reasoning that either of these 2 paths have an easier time at aggro control.
You try to make it sound like protectors are so big and bad at soaking up damage, which i am sure probably isn't the case, and by the way 2 great feats in the protector tree are 5% deflect and +5 armor class are also the first 2, easily taken by a conqueror if he wants since they are the first 2 feats in the lower row. its easy enough for a conqueror to have similar or at least more that adequate survivability from gear.
for me the key to having fun playing a conqueror and being successful in pve is simple - dont get hit - you may not be the most mobile class but you still are mobile so avoid what you can. movement and positioning goes along way, when i am kiting mobs i jump alot i find its fast to get away from red circles and damage many situations than turning your back and running or backing away with your shield up for it to get diminished or broken then moments later you could really use it. try it the next time you kiting a large group turn around and hop thru the middle of them like a rabbit, as you approach the mobs they are going start to cast, you jump hop on by leaving them stuck in the animation and giving yourself a bit of room to play when they catch up just jump by again works great for mobs with red circles like the ones in Karr. mobs wit frontal attacks like in spell i tend to side step them a lot more instead of of trying to jump pass forcing them to use their attacks as you maneuver your way around them. Think of the mobs as bulls and you are the matador, evade and watch the bull fly by, fun til that bull clips you and starts to gore your *** but even then you general get out of bad situation easier that if you stand and take it head on. As you move always try to keep your camera position towards the mobs as much as possible so if something does go wrong you just have to hit the block and you are already facing the incoming damage, i assign block to my right mouse button i so i can react quicker than reaching for shift.
as for marking mobs attacking the group while kiting tab mark should be fine as long as you have enhanced mark slotted it generally is strong enough even if the mob took a hit, if you have to go to psychically grab a mob or 2 off a teammate i use into the fray to put some distance between me and the pack mark the mobs as i approach and either use front line surge or threatening rush, i opt for front line surge because sometimes mobs from the pack get in front you as you are about to rush or if the mob is close to the boss and you lock on the boss instead plus you can hit it at range and not run the risk of taking the mob pack too close to anyone else. If your teammate accidentally or is silly enough to keep hitting the mob a quick cleave or two on a mark target should be enough, i try not to use enforced threat especially around the boss because i usually try to keep them marked for the damage debuff and i dont want him to aggro me and i dont like that lost of momentum. DC and CWs should be your priority when catching mobs, CW often end up being your priority whether it be from not switching out aoe skills for single target on the boss or they panic when they see a mob coming at them and attack it instead of dodging/kiting.
Thank you for this. Theres always some internet hero, that will always claim something incredible.
Karrundax too hard? Dude i soloed the whole dungeoun naked and just dodging! So easy!
Lol......
GF's can kite in any gear and any spec and should be very familiar with it from other boss encounters. Therefore, GS is almost irrelevant.
The 2nd boss is actually much easier than the first boss because the ranged adds when the giant appears on the first boss are very powerful and require a CW under protection of a DC to keep them busy (Shard and Steal Time being particuarly useful). Also, any class with aoe can kite on the 2nd boss. It does not have to be the GF, but GF with the right Powers are the strongest kiters in the game.
Note. If you have enough dps, you can still (i.e. post patch) just nuke both of those bosses and not worry about fight mechanics.
I think we disagree on the importance of threat generation in endgame content. I even discarded Potent Challenge a while ago and have no threat issues whatsoever the way I run dungeons.
For the longest time their was a console command that made you permanently dodge everything, and once enabled it lasted until you zoned or manually dodged. So yes, every dungeon has been solo'd by basically naked characters dodging everything :P
Reported it repeatedly and they didn't fix it until a few weeks ago (well after FotF was released). I want to say ppl got banned for using it in PVP but only because they made it obvious by leaving it on all the time. people thought there was some kind of "dodge" bug, all kinds of theories about weird power combinations that would "bug people out" and give them the dodge immunity for way "longer than normal". People argued that it was totally an accident/coincidence/etc and you couldn't blame players for being "lucky" and getting the dodge bug, etc etc. ofc that was bs, it was a console command.
have to quote myself, how lovely
forgot to say ofcourse people don`t spec well ofcourse too.
so feats count along too for a big part.
but anyway, why bother on a dying game.
Frankly, the "run in a circle" mechanics for the FH and Karru fights are the reason I don't take my GF out to those dungeons anymore. I'd rather grab my CW and just burn everything with AOE.
Funny cus those are the only dungeons i ever run on my GF. The only challenging thing on a GF is kiting adds. I mean it's not hard but if you are in an undergeared party its a test of endurance. I've kited all adds on FH for 40 minutes straight because party basically wiped on the first 2 boss aoes and the only ones left were an undergeared TR and gwf on boss. Me and the gwf split the 4 archers and just tanked them while tr and gwf killed boss. You can say "shoulda just wiped and started over" but these same people kept wiping, like they did not understand the concept that you should not be standing in red.
Theres only so many 20min cn/mc runs you can do before sht just gets old and you just need to pug with some bads, just to change things up.
That's the funniest thing I read.
1st boss: ****loads of red. Since we usually have at least 2xHV, we most of the times stack on bosses. This had so much red zones around it we wiped 2 times. 3rd time everybody kept running back so we kinda zerged it to death.
2nd boss: for some reason, this was less annoying and we killed it fast. There was a new "safe" zone which we decided it's not worth our time and we did it legit.
My conclusion?
Undoable at 8300 GS. Doable if you have good GF that can stay alive, good CWs that can constantly CC adds and have HV set to shorten the encounter.
As long as this instance is not doable at proposed GS with people from queue, it means it's bad design for me. Doesn't have to be easily doable, but should be OK after a few wipes. At 8300 GS players are so fragile and their damage output so low, there's no way it can be done.
You talk design now? You get Users to design dungeons...