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why was gwf nerfed?
axis40
Member Posts: 125 Bounty Hunter
i started to play tr got to level 60 made a vorpal,skulker the ussual stuff.i must say tr is very fun and very op class.it has a number of devastating skills.impact shot just crazy,lashing lol,itc lol again,smoke bomb the list goes on,easy to farm easy to kill got my head hunter at lvl 35.only class i cant kill is gwf sent well played, some gf(mostly i lose to lack of skill tho) and i can count those on fingers.im not by far the best tr there not even close my gear is so so my skill is still ****.just to mention i had maybe the best gwf on server if not top 2,3 for sure.now i cant see who in the right mind can complain abouth gwf unstoppable that was the biggest unnececary nerf ever.gwf is a sitting duck so easy to hit its a joke cant evade at all.gwf with low hp is easyest to kill then any class in the game.i have no hiden agenda i play just tr not calling for nerfs but tr has it all and you left the gwf with nothing just sayin.real balance were that only much better geared tr can beat gwf.that would be fair coz no class has so much trouble farming.
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Well for PVE a well played GWF blows away all TR. It seems like your wall of text is referring to PVP which Cryptic doesn't seem to care about. Remember, any change they make is going to be for PVE.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
There was a combination of abilities and stats during late beta which allowed a GWF player who could keep even a half-closed eye on his rotation to be almost completely invulnerable. This invulnerability applied in PvE and PvP, and made us a better tank than GF's could ever hope to be, because it was a straight damage resistance/immunity chain, even to those that were damage spec'd into the full Destroyer line.
This chain included aoe encounter and daily powers like Weapon Master Strike and Roar for quick AP and Unstoppable generation, and the chaining of the daily power slam (which fires, generates ap, and allows the player to continue attacking) with a five second damage immunity from Steel Defense, following almost assuredly with a bout of unstoppable, including a spike heal that some reported could regenerate up full health, from which we could repeat the chain and have a daily ready about one second after unstoppable finished.
Our skill cap was too low, and required neither max gear nor boons and high level enchants. This, of course, was the height of overpowered and made GWF the 'easy mode' of Neverwinter.
They nerfed several elements, all having the same general purpose. They reduced how much unstoppable we could gain from hitting multiple targets. They also destroyed our AP gain. And they nerfed Slam. All in all, probably too much of a nerf for the problem.
But it hasn't killed our class. It removed players who didn't really fit in with the class and were simply playing GWF because it was so easy, and this angry bunch has made it hard for GWF's to get into dungeons, that's for sure. It doesn't matter that there are plenty of fully capable GWF's out there, if the plethora of PUG's believe they are useless from secondhand rumors, we'll never get picked.
In PvP, we're still great, but to attain that nigh-invulnerable state requires a lot more gear and enchants and work than it did before. The gap between poor players (poor in gear or poor in skill) versus good players has been greatly increased, which is a good thing. Players SHOULD know when they got hit by a good player, and the vast majority of GWF's right now are trash at best, which helps the good ones stand out better.
All in all, I would like either my AP gain returned a bit or my dailies increased in power to be something worth using once a day. AND, I would love to see more mechanics like they have in MC that give GWF's a more solid role in dungeons (as mini-boss tanks and spell interrupters).
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
And in fact, at least two reviewers from outside MMO sites that I read strongly recommended GWF for rookie NWO players, citing ease of play, survivability, plus fair damage as primary reasons.
Unfortunately this ease of play and utility did/doesn't transfer well to the DD format. The effects of the nerfs there have seriously curtailed the GWF's team usefulness in dungeons, and added noticeably to the current sorry state of NWO's end game.
*providing my gear score is higher, there isn't a control wizard push pulling (like that is not going to happen ever:rolleyes:) and it is a target rich environment(lots of mobs).
Should AOE DPS be what makes GWF's superior? I personally disagree, but I realize that many GWF's feel this way and recognize that it's possible the Instigator line should be reworked to focus exclusively on this role to allow a GWF this capability.
I keep wondering where we'll stand when new classes come out. Take Warlocks and Archer Rangers, for instance. Will they become king of the DPS chart? Warlocks are generally (in video games, at least) a debuff and pet class, and Archer Rangers are generally built for pets and control. While the pet category will be unique to them, they will both be stepping on some other classes toes.
I have a feeling that, before the year is out, GWF will no longer be unique in not being the king of any particular mound. Our mobility and diversity of playstyles will probably be our strongest point for a long time.
I'm not personally worried about the end-dungeon or end-skirmish leaderboards. A lot of players are. Hell, watch some of the videos, and you see they keep that leaderboard up constantly. I think that this is pantamount of a selfish solo player who is more worried about their own record than the capabilities of the whole team, but them again I'm sometimes prone to be a team player.
I do wish they'd give us more importance in some dungeons, like they did in MC. It is nice to have some niche.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I also think the devs have kinda come to the conclusion that the current paragon paths of GWF are seriously flawed.. And rather than tweaking them to improve the class they are probably more focusing on the new paragon paths that are ment to be released before Christmas.. I think here is where they might try and address the issues GWF have... In saying that when they are introduced the destroyer/instigators probably come extinct.. Which sentinel being the line survivor..along with the new paths
But destroyer plays well as a single-target DPS line. Very well, when combined with the heroic feats. It just doesn't tank. I personally feel that many players will find that any AOE dps king rating they give us, especially if it's a dedicated feat line, will come with a lack of tanking as well. Two dps lines, one tank line, and you'll see lots of players angry that we're not capable of doing it all.
Isn't that what most of the complaints are about? Players wanting the tanking capabilities of Sentinel, while also doing significant damage? Players wanting the best of both worlds, as it was in late beta?
I'm not saying our AOE capabilities couldn't use a huge improvement. I'm just saying that, if it happens to improve AOE but not survivability as well, any AOE feat line will still be seen as a failure and waste, the same way many players look at the Destroyer line right now. And if they do give it AOE and tank, we'll be op and broken again, easy-mode for players who don't really know how to play.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
But -> This is, how people feel about the slam nerf.
Yes a destroyer can have good dps.. But it needs insane gear to do so.. And as a destroyer myself with what I consider very elite dps, seems suddenly my Agro has increased with the higher dps.. But now I'm
you don't 'balance' with a sledgehammer. you BREAK
I've got a 60 of every class, CW actually benefitted this round IMO, though not totally, TR got its invisi-ranged cropped, not that they were that stealthy anyway, I mean, when you sneak past a spawn , and are 100 feet away, stealth ends, THEN they agro and come after you. ??? SIGH. DC and GF got their bursts clipped, which really slows down leveling- you do the minions in 20 seconds then the boss takes 2 minutes :P -and yeah I know that's exaggerating, but you get my drift.
But nobody got it like the GWF. And I for one don't think they were that overpowered to begin with.
But then , maybe if you are a cryptic number cruncher, looking at mined data that says that far fewer than expected characters are dying in the DDs, and LOOK.. almost NO GWFs at all, these nerfs seem reasonable. But the reality is that exploiters, respawn traveling, Singularity/Force field sweeps, and the famous re-entry strategy were bypassing 90% of the mobs. And as we've all been told GWFs are useless for that , let's get a 3rd CW....
Fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place very often ends up really breaking it.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
I don't agree.. Rather than making adjustments to the sentinel tree which is what all the complaints were about the drastically nerfed the whole lot.. I have never send anyone complain that destroyer or instigator is OP.. But the whole lot copped it.. I think this is a mistake.. Because now they have a group of unhappy customers.. And I know for a fact that nerf lost them a whole lot of players.. Some GWfs in my guild felt so broken by it.. Afterwords the announced there retirement and since have never logged back on. So they close clients.. Which isn't good business.. At all. And shelling out large sums of cash to make an OP toon.. Well that's most mmo's in a nutshell.. And lets be honest that is good business.. Drop the same cash into the other classes and suddenly you are OP as well.. It's all the same.
Good business is keeping your customers happy and insulating them from as much discomfort as possible.. Like a nerf...
Instead they chose to go to the forums.. Announce they were improving the GWF for pve.. As they did in the barracks you can go see.. Release a patch notes that contained only a small portion of the damage they were doing to the class... Then go ahead and nerf the dps, survivability and most important a drastic AP gain nerf.. After saying they were improving it.. Then after woods they refuse to make any comment it.. Now no one can call that good business.. In fact that's the exact recipe to destroy a business
It seems like having a skill that can possibly kill people in pvp for a GWF is an issue.. People seem to think they shouldn't be able too kill people.. I don't see GWfs 1 shorting anyone in pvp... I still see TRs and CWs doing it all the time.. I just don't get it
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
in pvp it never costs a lot cash for gwf get t1 pvp set spec sent stack def dodge rejen blues and gem def dodge it did not cost much and had nothing to do with cash ppl just like to complain about g tene and they where not the issue.
t1 set bonus is biggest issue for pvp troll it heals to much.
any class that has 40 mill + of gear will own in pvp in this game as they don't match pvp so you can have full end game gear and be vs some one in greens is another big issue with pvp and gwf.
Cant say I agree.
Take down with 30' range, Cresendo that wraps around corners and goes through LoS, near impossible to dodge encounters(as of lately) most of which stun+prone you. I see no problem at all with GWF. Other then because of this game every single ability they have is bugged to all 9 hells.
PS: I'd rather have your Sprint ability then my 2 dodges as a TR.
The scenario you mentioned only occurs in pvp, but against the dumb mobs in PVE, a GWF will be consistently out dps by similarly geared and specialized built Rogues, CWs, and even Guardian fighters, especially if there aren't that many mobs to swing at. The GWF speed and tricks and survivability are geared far more towards pvp, in PVE, it's a master of none, especially since the nerf to the AP generation, from abilities like roar, and the nerf to unstoppable, the spamming of spinning blade daily no longer work well in the equation of survivability. In PVE it's utterly pointless to pull those pvp tactics you described. A GWF can neither out DPS mobs and will always lose to a CW, and for dps on single or up to 3 mobs will always lose to a TR and GF, these are basic facts in the game mechanics. Neither can a GWF out agro a Cleric or a GF. So the main utility of a GWF is to apply some debuff to mobs like armor resistance debuff for the party which is always under appreciated anyways. The only fix to this is to allow GWF to hold better agro on the minor mobs and cluster of mobs in dungeons, there are several feats that allow this only temporarily like come get it or that roar that applies mark to targets, but it's only a very temporary agro, not enough to pull in large group of mobs to alleviate pressure on your party. In fact a CW can do both the DPS and alleviate mob pressure better. GWF utility in dungeons as a matter of fact is the lowest of any of the classes, it's neither a pure dps, a pure AOE, a pure tank, a pure healer, or the best at holding agro. It just does a little bit of everything which is no good when dungeons needs specialization to be more effective. The only GWFs that are good are the ones that completely outgears the other classes and have a proper build, with proper balancing of their stats, like a 14k + GWF with level 30 stone that knows how to build their stats for instance. From my experience, in the pecking order a CW = DC -> rogue
>GF ->GWF in epic dungeons in terms of utility, and that is all that matters. A jack of all trades sounds nifty, but too bad the PVP portion of this game completely suck and a complete waste of time, with no open world pvp and crappy rewards, this game is exclusively PVE centric and exclusively hostile to GWFs.
for you is normal to kill 47 people in one match and that is skill lolol.for me it was normal never to lose from tr like you with my gwf sent (and i never did once) and that is normal.
to save some time now you say:
i could kill you easy np blablabla ussual ego stuff.
now i say:
if you can kill top 3 gwf on server with lesser vorpal(saw your build) or even vorpal how can you say gwf is fine since my gwf is much better geared then yours.
so eather you admit i am better pvp player then you or admit that gwf is bad right now lol.
which one ?
now you say you have better gear so you kill me,with same gear i kill you.
well that was my point all along tr can beat same gear gwf which is not fair coz you have 47 kills and even 1v1 you can win that is just crazy lol
by the way i like your video very tough to use dazing and amazing skill but you will never match me at logic never not one from this forum ever did
now you say who cares...abouth the logic this is gaming site
now i say sure but logic should dictate class balance lol i have to force to stop lol i can go for days
I'm not the type to say I can beat anyone, let alone everyone. Your entire post made no sense whatsoever, just random blabbering.
Saying every TR can beat the same geared GWF is an ignorant comment from the mouth of a baby crying because he sucks fighting vs TRs. <---Thx for the laugh
I'm terrible at PvP, and you are way better then me. Does that help your precious feelings now?
aaah did i ofend you coz reading your mind.i was writing from tr stand of point no gwf same gear can beat me ever lol. so skilled gwf vs skilled tr gwf no chance lose again lol.or even if it were the same and its not it should be at least 70 to 30 for gwf.and you are no humble i put you there myself lol before you was puting scren shots of 47 kills and vids now you say you are not that type lolololol.
what is now you humble or killa or both lolololol silent killa humble posting kills type tr
or now you say you dont undestand a single thing i wrote my gramar is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Near impossible to understand what your point is, but...
Put yourself on the test server, I know plenty of GWF's who will gladly embarrass you.
I'll be happy to record and post the video
I never revived no one coz i loze my dps then and 8 gs cw beats me at karrundax lol
sure im making a new build right now.when i finish in a week or 2 need skulkers i pm you but only the same gear t2 and same enchants to be fair. nice ty i like a challenge.
and you better post that coz i aint playin for nothing i will embaras you and your gwf friend to
Lol ok kiddo. Soon as you get your pampers in order you let me know
Find it hilarious how you run your mouth saying you beat everyone 1 vs 1, I post a challenge to you, then you come up with all sorts of silly <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and stipulations.
You don't get to openly call someone out, then critique the gear they have, and require they are the exact same as you.
/facepalm
I know your being funny, and I laughed too. But this isn't the truth for a skilled GWF. We can perform the roles of two other classes almost as well (we can tank the boss or tank the adds, and we can do enough damage to take down the bosses solo if need be, just takes longer), and in a pinch we can stand in for a second CW heading to the boss (wouldn't suggest it unless you had to, but come and get it and roar are like a kids version of singularity and push).
We don't generate threat, though, so we can't tank adds near as well as a GF can (our damage/threat generation is enough for bosses, but not a mass of adds), which I personally feel needs improved. And our outright damage isn't as high as a TR, meaning we take longer to kill the boss off.
To me, it doesn't matter who topped the charts as long as the team pulls the run off successfully and in appropriate time. And the GWF is simply more capable of doing many roles than others.
And @Axis: I try really hard to be understanding of those for whom English isn't a first language. For most of us in the US of A, English isn't really our first language either. That said, I can't understand a **** thing your mumbling about or saying, besides it sounding a little arrogant and generally off topic.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
True story.
Easy to figure out that since then, the devs hate the Melee classes in this game. The gwf pays for the lack of skill of the devs in their own game.
This is a very ignorant comment. If people are dying it is either their fault or the cleric's fault.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting