I don't agree with this at all.
I do agree with OP to a point. I have done most of the dungeons to completion, with pugs, but it does keep getting more difficult and just flat out more grindy. You up the stats of the trash so we have to pull fewer mobs at a time or get nailed. This makes the dungeons just take longer, which is not the same as adding content btw, and the final bosses more difficult to run before the adds overrun you. The t2's that i have finished I can usually still finish though. Yes you should learn to play as a team member, but you shouldn't have to join any guild. In an MMO the idea was originally that the was always someone to play with, the game was always on. You aren't supposed to have to wait till the same people are around and can play.I do 100% agree about the pig festival though.
I also don't like the adds, but with a well geared party you still melt them in seconds. A guild will help a lot in this game, I agree it shouldn't be a necessity but here in NW it does seem to help a lot. I have more then 4 friends on my list to play with .
I also don't like the adds, but with a well geared party you still melt them in seconds. A guild will help a lot in this game, I agree it shouldn't be a necessity but here in NW it does seem to help a lot. I have more then 4 friends on my list to play with .
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I have found time and time again the people that have the most heartburn about different aspects of this multiplayer game are the ones that play it alone.
Well thought out letter, but unfortunately the ONLY time you get a response
from someone in forums is when they are closing a thread. You missed that one,
but communication is a HUGE deal. At least let the players know the future direction
of the game (even vaguely).
Its still beyond me why you cant add people to a party at any point. Makes absolutely
zero sense. Zero.
Im not sold on the BOP situation. Look at the way things stand now. As a new
player to the game (which I have to imagine is key to keeping the game going)
they have very limited ways of making AD, and VERY few options outside of time
to gear up. The payers who have been around since day 1 had the liberty of gearing
their new 60s from accumulated AD, glory or GG coins.
IMO all your toons should share progress. If someone in the guild needs my X class
but I want to play Y, I should at least be able to keep the share the currency in order
to fit the role they need.
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kzlsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited September 2013
I agree with every single word of the OP here. As a 60 TR who's played since early beta, I'm continually frustrated that the endgame content is *so*overtuned that you either have to have a guild to run it, or you can wait in the eternal queue. And if you do get a queue to pop, you run a 50% chance of having a group who wants to exploit/bypass/use terrain "cheats" (usually involving a fair amount of dying) to get through, or the other 50% of the time, you either get kicked for not being the "right class" or have people drop out before the group even starts.
I think this is alienating not only the casual player base, but the more serious player group that doesn't want to sell out their friendships to guild up with a high-turnover, heartless "progression group" just to experience endgame.
I love this game, enough to have paid for the expansion and the founder pack. But between bugs and exploits and poorly tuned endgame, all my friends have left or are leaving. Please fix these things before pushing out any more new content, or this excellent idea of a game is going to crash and burn.
I've read through this post and I say, I agree with most of it. There definitely do need to be revisions to the dungeons. Not a fan of the potions on the Zen market idea, it seems like a bit too pay to win to me, but most everything else is sound.
I doubt this'll make a difference, but one can always hope. I had a friend who, last night, went into Epic Karrundax. He and his party didn't even have a wizard and it practically required them to cheese the first couple of bosses to get through it. I completed Helm's Hold entirely while he did this.
This kind of highlights why there's a lot of exploiting going on in these dungeons. Part of it is out of necessity due to how strong and how numerous the ads are.
*Sigh* But all that'll happen here is just a bunch of sarcastic people will comment and nothing will get done. Like usual.
Karrandax is miserable now.. Not fun at all... Doable yes. Fun.. no
Good topic and for the most part i agree with the OP, well kind of anyway.
When i read through this thred it becomes clear how difficult it is to tune the difficulty of this game "just right". I think you need some kind of challange. Make it too easy and any kind of accomplishment is gone. And i think it's good to have goals to work towards. Not only when it comes to the GS but also the skill.
Maybe today CN or MC is too much for you and your group (btw i am talking only legitimate, exploiters "beat" dungeons the same way as shoplifters "buy" from stores) but a few weeks of pratice will get you there. And of course, there are the pro gamers (not sure what percentage of the player base fall in that category) who think this game is already on the easy side and if they tune the difficulty down, they will lose them.
Still, i think for casual gamers, people who get in one or two hours after work and maybe a bit more on the weekends, the game at level 60 is pretty tough. It gets really frustrating when you can't finish a dungeon 5 time in a row. Sure a guild with skilled players or a good friend list might help but that can't be the sollution.
Another problem with the difficulty i think is that the leveling part is pretty short and not too much of a challange. People don't really get to learn the class before they hit max level and hardly ever get in a sticky situation where skill or teamplay is required. When they hit level 60 and the harder T1 or the T2 dungeons it's like going from 2 to 10.
I am not saying that you should be able to breeze through the epic dungeons with min GS and a PUG the first time you try it but a T2 dungeon should be manageable without 11k+ GS and a skill of the top 3%. I honestly don't have clue what difficulty would be the right one because it obviously seems to be very subjective what is difficult and what is not, so no matter what they do, they will <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> some people off, I guess it's just a matter of what part of population is most valueable to the devs.
You should not have to have gear that is already better than the reward to just beat the dungeon. Being in guild should have a benefit, but not be the difference between defeating the dungeon or being hopelessly beat. Not to mention finding a good guild that actually has active players can be challenge in and of itself, especially for the casual player. Having friends in the game helps, but again they need to be online when you are. It should be at least 50/50 that you can find 4 other players that you can beat a dungeon with, not be an exception. One problem that lies strictly at the feet of the player base is the lack of communication. Not speaking to one another while exploring a dungeon contributes greatly to the failure of a group. I find the lack of communication surprising cosindering MMOs are supposed to be social games. Another problem with the player base is they expect everyone to be experts in their class and the dungeon. There is no time given to actually learn your class or the dungeon. This is the only time you will hear from the other players, is if you are slow or inexperienced. Then you will get plenty of communication, albeit expletive filled, just prior to being kicked. As someone else mentioned the storyline really does not give you time to learn your class as you level far too quickly, even without Leadership, Foundries, PvP, and XP boosts.
In any case the dungeons do need to be tuned better to provide a doable challenge for the casual gamer, not just be a grind for the hardcore. The best solution would be to actually develop better mechanics for the bosses, but to lessen the number of adds would be a good intermediate step.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
Sorry if you cannot beat a dungeon with the minimum gear score requirement you really are not good enough to beat it.
Try playing some of the dungeons that you can handle with your skill level then gradually move up as your skill level gets higher.
No sarcasm here. I am by no means some sort of phenom at video games. I was able to deal with it. Nut up or shut up.
Take a look at the number of posters that have responded with "a well geared group" or some version thereof. Look at the LFG chat posts, that say 11k+GS required in order to join the run, no dungeon has a minimum that high. That is what I am referring to. This is the advice the OP is getting, over gear for the dungeon. He should not have to do that in order to have a chance of beating the dungeon. Not to mention the issue of getting a group together to run a T1 dungeon so you can learn, even if you are in a guild.
While your comment applies to my first sentence, what is your response to the rest of my post?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
Take a look at the number of posters that have responded with "a well geared group" or some version thereof. Look at the LFG chat posts, that say 11k+GS required in order to join the run, no dungeon has a minimum that high. That is what I am referring to. This is the advice the OP is getting, over gear for the dungeon. He should not have to do that in order to have a chance of beating the dungeon. Not to mention the issue of getting a group together to run a T1 dungeon so you can learn, even if you are in a guild.
While your comment applies to my first sentence, what is your response to the rest of my post?
No offense but your post you are referring to kinda meanders around. At the end of the day you are saying you should not have to overgear content to be able to beat it.
Good news you dont have to.
Pugging is what it is. Try it in any game whether its ranked in league, or raid in wow, or whatever it is doesnt matter it is always dicey. That is just nature of the beast.
Step your game up. If your game is stepped up and you still have problems then make friends. What else is there to say?
I am the definition of a casual player and i have no issues. Could the mechanics be better? Sure. They have already shown they want to work out of the adds mechanic as exhibited by their latest dungeon, they are not going to go back and retrofit old dungeons with new mechanics.
Well, they could take note of many players that are struggeling with the game in the current state and tone it down, I'm not saying this is the way to go but i know it's not fun not to be able to beat a huge chunk of the game. Saying "Get better!" or "Learn to play!" is maybe an advice not all can follow because lack of time or skill prevents it.
Of course it would make the really good players not very happy if they would for example reduce the HP of enemies globaly in dungeons by X% but they could just build mega hard foundrys to endulge themselfs. I'm not sure but maybe the offical game for the most part should be open for all players and not just the elite.
First, I would like to thank you for creating a game in which I truly enjoy the mechanics of the combat system. I wish I could bind more abilities, but I think that would honestly overpower my characters. The balance in the number of abilities you can use and the choices you have to make going into a combat situation make the learning curve just steep enough to make the game challenging. I appreciate that.
Second, I would like to thank you for creating an immersive D&D based environment that actually works. I played Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter Nights, and really didn't like either of them ... and as a D&D fan from way too long ago, I really yearned for a D&D game I could play with my friends and enjoy. This game gave me that opportunity.
Third, I would like to thank you for trying to come up with a solution to the flood of epics on the auction house. I'm not sure I really like your solution, but you put thought to it. That's more than some game developers will do.
Now to the real important part of the letter. You are losing players. Period. It isn't the BoP issue that is really making you lose your player base. It's a contributing factor, but it isn't the cause. You are making the content in dungeons overpowered at the end for the level/"quality" of player that you advertise to. Let's take epic Pirates for example ... the Surgeon fight spawns so many adds that a solid group of 5 individuals geared with high T2/CN gear, who team together on a regular basis, and all in voice comms with one another, struggle through the fight with multiple deaths, running back from the starting campfire just to manage adds. And adds continue to spawn even after the boss is dead, making it frustrating to continue through the dungeon. The second boss is more of the same. The final boss is actually the most manageable of the fights ... which is exactly the opposite of the progression you should expect in a dungeon. Now, I'm not saying the dungeon is impossible, but how will a moderately geared player, with no access to a full T2 set and/or CN gear (much less high end Sharandar gear), in a pick-up group of other casual players manage to get to the end boss to even choose something from the chest?
You are alienating your casual player base.
Then let's talk Castle Never. Who can beat Valindra? Can a team of devs group together and beat the current mechanics as players? Nobody even bothers to fight Valindra any more (that I know of). Even the people with the gear don't do it. First, people who need the gear (and no, I do not have an Ancient set, so I "need" the gear as an improvement over what I have) can't get there. One of the best mixes of players in my guild couldn't come close to killing the second boss, and I have died there horribly the few times I have tried it. Second, the people who already have the gear have no reason to do the fight ... they can't trade the items to guildies or sell them on the AH, so why bother going through the pain?
You are alienating your more capable player base.
Malabog's Castle. Show me a video of the devs beating the dragon/Valindra fight. Please. I want to see that it can be done with 5 people in T2/T2.5 gear with some mix of Ancient sets and some other sets. Show me the math on drop rates so I know I'm not wasting my time. Running dungeons is all we have left. Yeah, dailies are cool, and the boons from Sharandar are nice, but they don't excite a player nearly as much as getting into a dungeon, getting ready for a fight and working over a boss ... even if it took 3 or 4 or 5 tries. But after 5 tries, it starts to get frustrating, and that isn't fun. And if it isn't fun, I won't buy zen any more. I won't buy the rez scrolls or the health stones, because even with all that stuff, we still can't beat your boss. Hell, we need the gear from the boss to even start beating the boss. Tell me how that makes sense ...
You are alienating even your more hardcore player base.
I play almost every night. Sometimes it pisses my wife off that I play so much. I played UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, Warhammer online, EvE online ... hell, I can't even keep track of all the MMO games I've played ... and I was really enjoying this game, probably even more so than the others, but I'm starting to lose interest. I can go with a vast array of groups and beat the first two bosses in MC, but the mechanics of the real end-game bosses (Valindra and Fulminorax) are unbeatable. Why? If the gear from the delve chest is BoP, and the drop rate on good items from the boss is so low, why make the boss unbeatable? I'm to the point now, and I KNOW there are a lot like me, that I'm just not willing to put the effort in if I can't get any reward back out of it.
Free to play is amazing. I'm even willing to spend more in cash on a FtP game through the transaction environment than I am on a subscription game, but only if there is some reward I get from spending my cash. Right now, there isn't any reward.
My suggestions -
Either show us that the bosses can be beaten with characters geared appropriately for that dungeon (Spellplague - people who need T2 helms and don't have 4 piece sets or T2.5 weapons yet ... Castle Never - people who don't have Ancient gear except in a spot or 2 - ring or neck - but no Ancient weapon sets ... Castle Malabog - people who don't have Fomorian Fabled or Ilyanbruen (sp?) sets - or hell, anyone for that matter), OR ratchet back on the stupid meter for difficulty. Difficult and impossible are not the same thing. Show us it can be done, or make it so we can do it.
If you intend to leave the difficulty where it is, get the other 2 classes into the game and add 2 more slots to parties. If you aren't at the point where the 2 new classes are ready for prime-time, get the 2 additional party slots in first.
Don't take out the Bind on Pickup mechanism, but up the drop rate some ... not massively, but remember that when 1 epic item drops, only 1 out of 5 people gets it. Why make us run the dungeon 8 times to get 1 epic item that only 1 out of 5 people can have? Bump it a couple of percentage points and give us some hope to get something. And let us finish the damned dungeon for the epic chest we actually need ... not make us go back and farm dungeons for BoP items we already have better than.
Put useful combat items in the zen store. Low cost, multi-stat combat potions in addition to heal stones and rez scrolls would make a huge difference. Yes, I know I can get those through invoking, but I would like an angel one day ...
I think you guys have a game with amazing potential. I have enjoyed playing greatly, I like collecting pets and lore, and I really like the combat system. I like that new content was so fast to the streets (although the bug issues have been a little frustrating). The graphics are well done, and the storyline is enjoyable, but the end game doesn't offer much for experienced players. A grind in a free to play game doesn't keep your player base for long. Picking flowers and herding pigs will only hold attention for so long. People are already looking for the next game ... I don't want to, but I'm getting there myself.
Rraakan
Amen brother. Been playing games like this since EQ1. I have never played a game that has made me so angry with the end game content. its to hard try tanking 30 guys with a diminishing block meter. I can think of 40 man raids i have done that are easy then a T2 epic dungeon. But if they desingers of this game want to keep there job they need to balance the game out. Just did Epic frozen heart 8 tries later on last boss we called it. DD event 12 am start time 2:44 am we are calling it cause the last boss was just to darn hard. i HOPE THE DESINGERS READ THESE POST COOL IT BRING IT DOWN A NOTCH OR 10. STOP SNIFFING COMPUTER CLEANER. THINK ABOUT YOUR PLAYERS AND NOT JUST WIPING THE PEOPLE THAT PAY YOUR RENT. IAM GIVING IT MAYBE ANOTHER WEEK THEN IAM DONE. I WILL GO BACK TO STARWARS. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS A FINE LINE BETWEEN FUN AND FRUSTRATION. 2 60 LVL TOONS BOTH FULL T1 GEAR AND NIETHER HAS MANAGED TO COMPLETE A T2 DUNGEON.
Amen brother. Been playing games like this since EQ1. I have never played a game that has made me so angry with the end game content. its to hard try tanking 30 guys with a diminishing block meter. I can think of 40 man raids i have done that are easy then a T2 epic dungeon. But if they desingers of this game want to keep there job they need to balance the game out. Just did Epic frozen heart 8 tries later on last boss we called it. DD event 12 am start time 2:44 am we are calling it cause the last boss was just to darn hard. i HOPE THE DESINGERS READ THESE POST COOL IT BRING IT DOWN A NOTCH OR 10. STOP SNIFFING COMPUTER CLEANER. THINK ABOUT YOUR PLAYERS AND NOT JUST WIPING THE PEOPLE THAT PAY YOUR RENT. IAM GIVING IT MAYBE ANOTHER WEEK THEN IAM DONE. I WILL GO BACK TO STARWARS. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS A FINE LINE BETWEEN FUN AND FRUSTRATION. 2 60 LVL TOONS BOTH FULL T1 GEAR AND NIETHER HAS MANAGED TO COMPLETE A T2 DUNGEON.
Incoming "L2P" "find a guild" from the fanboi 5%.
And could the fanbois please explain why then open channel groups are always looking for players geared far beyond the minimum gs reqs for the zone they want to run.
In fact dont bother. Its like talking with politicians, pointless.
Well from what i see on lfg channel is mostly 10.5k-12k+ GS lf T2 even for t1 ppl ask 9.5k... 10k ++
so prolly as a low gs you gotta que up random party most of the times.
So its like,wait in que which lately does not even pop anymore for whole DD,and if it does you get a random party with mostly low gs random players that do not end up well.
When i leveled to 60 in july things werent excactly like this to be honest.Que times were much better and there were more high gs or average gs exp people queing up.Lately i hardly see this.(and by ''exp'' i do not mean exploit^^.)
To the people that say t2 are easy etc,yes the raids are doable with close to minimum gs,and if its a group of ppl that raided with each other abit and know what to do and know their class it can be ''easy''(easy in terms of doing the raid knowing you will finish it and you will not fail).
But the way raids are now,for a ''fresh'' 60 with low gs is pretty hard to ''learn'' his class and what to do in raids...to get to the point were raids will seem ''easy'' and fun...
(way raids are atm=long que time even when DD and sometimes u never get into pt,random pt mostly that no end up very well,lots of time spent for not so much reward)....
I dont agree with OP, what I noticed in Neverwinter:
- Make people read the forums more on how to play there class and which builds are good to use.
- Play as a team and not as 5 individuals.
- Don't get crazy if your not on a number 1 position in scores (dmg etc...). It's a team effort.
- Join a GOOD guild
- Practice dungeons with the same people, don't use the queue system (= instant waste of time)
- Use your **** voicechat if it isn't going well (pressing V is really hard.....if not using another program).
- Dungeons are easy, even at 10k GS. It's just a lack of skill combined with the selfishness of people bashing there keyboard and blaming others. If you have 2 people like this in your party, waste of time again.
- Draco + Fulmi farting lightning is an annoying bug indd.
- I stopped playing because I am just BORED at this game, I will keep an eye on the forums IF the devs start listening to the community
- Don't introduce a pig hording festival. Inroduce a festival with a BAD *** dungeon with an epic drop for every party member IF you can beat the boss (NO ADDS, some real mechanics like fulmi + vallindra, even though that can be done better since adds can still be spawned through the portal....)
I wouldn't hold my breath, lol. They haven't been listening for months despite saying that they listen to the community a lot.
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ufoalienMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 30Arc User
edited September 2013
Been trying the stupid SPELL PLAGUE to get HELMET for AGES and chest always give CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
WASTING MY TIME ON DD AND GETTING CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP won't spend my time anymore on this CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I wouldn't hold my breath, lol. They haven't been listening for months despite saying that they listen to the community a lot.
You're quite wrong, I'm positive they're listening, quite closely at that. They're not catering, however, which is a completely different conversations - though IMO it's the right thing to do.
- Don't introduce a pig hording festival. Inroduce a festival with a BAD *** dungeon with an epic drop for every party member IF you can beat the boss (NO ADDS, some real mechanics like fulmi + vallindra, even though that can be done better since adds can still be spawned through the portal....)
Lol no, leave that stuff to core content. Special evens are supposed to be special and fun. Summer festival is great fun, and is a nice diversion from other stuff. Even if you're too pretentiously "hardcore" to enjoy it, don't be a spoilsport for the rest of us.
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
And could the fanbois please explain why then open channel groups are always looking for players geared far beyond the minimum gs reqs for the zone they want to run.
In fact dont bother. Its like talking with politicians, pointless.
Of course people ask for high gear score.
"Hey LF mechanic to work on my car. Prefer one with really old broken tools and not much experience with transmission issues to fix my transmission."
Asking for a certain requirement and the dungeon requiring it are two way different things.
Lemme get this straight. You want Cryptic to nerf all dungeons not because they are too hard but because people in pugs and LFG are asking for too high of a GS requirement?
This just in... end game dungeons arent easy.
This just in... 5 mans take communication and understanding not usually prevalent in PuGs.
This just in... you dont deserve to win just because you try.
Please pick up your participation trophy at the door.
... which is exactly the opposite of the progression you should expect in a dungeon. Now, I'm not saying the dungeon is impossible, but how will a moderately geared player, with no access to a full T2 set and/or CN gear (much less high end Sharandar gear), in a pick-up group of other casual players manage to get to the end boss to even choose something from the chest?
You are alienating your casual player base.
Which is why I'll never bother with any sort of group-play in Neverwinter; skirmishes, dungeons, teams, because I have no interest in being a min-maxer like the devs want and expect me to be. I'll do it in STO and CO because the games there are far better balanced (and the gamer population *appear* to be a lot friendlier to helping others out).
I have been saying since closed-beta and Alpha: end bosses (in both: solo-PvE and group-PvE) are ridiculously over-powered *as compared to the rest* of the run. There should not be such a huge spike in skill-level-requirement. But this isn't really my complaint. My complaint (regarding SOLO-PVE) is with *how long it takes* to complete a stupid-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>$ boss fight.
My thoughts on it: Make the boss hit points weaker (easier to kill); but also make his/her strikes harder (able to kill the player in a two, or three-shot) and thin-out the stupid adds.
In other words: I love the challenging aspect of boss fights, but I hate the dumass amount of TIME it takes in that one stupid area of a solo-PVE instance: 20-minutes exploring and fighting my way to the boss, then 20-goddam-more-minutes to defeat the boss *IF* I don't have to respawn (which adds a dumass EXTRA three minutes for EACH dumass "injury" - okay, PUH-LEESE. If I do have to respawn... goodgawdalmighty - some of your solo-PVE instances can take 90-goddam-minutes to complete in some cases.
This is why I have been playing less and less the higher my player-rank-level gets. I have a DC at level 55. It'll probably be another three months before I decide to push that character into 60, if at all. It's more fun playing low-level alts into the 40's, then rinsing and repeating... until I get so tired of it that I stop playing altogether.
shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
whether fanbois think the difficulty level is fine (or needs to be even harder) is irrelevant. the fact is the majority of dungeons and MC in particular are bugged one way or another. infinte adds (even after you kill the boss), instakill random aoe, dmg outside red areas, and a range of other broken mechanics aren't there by design (even if Cryptic eventually changes the tool tip and insists they are). these things are just not working properly. which is going to happen in a game like this, but the amazing thing is that not only did these things get passed the QA team, they've been allowed to exist in game for weeks, sometimes even months. that's the part that makes Cryptic look bad.
Sorry if you cannot beat a dungeon with the minimum gear score requirement you really are not good enough to beat it.
Try playing some of the dungeons that you can handle with your skill level then gradually move up as your skill level gets higher.
No sarcasm here. I am by no means some sort of phenom at video games. I was able to deal with it. Nut up or shut up.
But that's the thing, if you need T2 gear to finish T2 dungeons but only get T2 gear from T2 dungeons, than that's a problem. And a lot of people, me included, feel that way.
A dev stated they do not play their own game at end-level, they're letting the players sort it out for themselves. If that's true it would explain the score of bugs and exploits in the dungeons, as well as the difficulty level. I think there's no way to justifiable say how difficult a dungeons really is, it's become all about which bugs work in your favor and how to exploit them.
I also think a lot of the posters who reply with stuff like "L2P", "get better gear" and "join a good guild" are forgetting that they got their experience gear, and guild when there were more exploits and stuff available to buy. In other words, they had it a lot easier than now.
I agree with the OP's sentiment, I loved the game initially, but post-60 is where it all starts to lose its luster. It doesn't have the same feeling of quality about it. To me it seems Perfect World bough a great solo-game and then ordered Cryptic to turn it into an MMO to make them a lot of money. I don't know who's dropping the ball or where, but a lot of the design decisions and coding priorities are silly at best and plain wrong at worst.
For me, I'd say they need to start by better communication and interaction with their playerbase. Cutesy remarks on twitter just don't cut it. The devs replying to selected threads at the forum is great, they need to expand on that. It shouldn't be frustrated players taking polls on which bugs needs to be fixed first or what improvement needs to be implemented. That's Cryptic's job!
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
edited September 2013
As easy as this game is to me... I fail to understand a lot of the complaints. I mean... how much easier can the boss fights get? I know plenty of people who kill Valindra on Dragon. The people that tend to exploit / farm / etc on bosses, usually are the worst players I come across... and when I'm in groups that actually require them to fight, do they fail... yeah a large percentage of the time.
If people actually took the time to get good at their classes... run a dungeon and learn how to master their enemies... the boss fights would seem just as easy.
Now does this game support the casual player... yeah... by adding events like Midsummer, etc. However, most dungeons are not for Casual players... and that's why they fail. If you don't have the mindset to dig out a dungeon... you should really be focusing on the other stuff, crafting, skirmishes, GG supporting the PVP players etc. Otherwise suck it up.
Neverwinter is by and far the EASIEST mmo I've have ever played. EQ -> DAoC -> AC -> Beta (WOW) hated it -> DDO -> LOTRO (hated it) -> Neverwinter. However, if has one of the BEST combat systems of any of them.
This game was released early remember (my guess was to cash back some of the money for development, or be cancelled), it has a lof of potential and it's onyl a few months old.
As easy as this game is to me... I fail to understand a lot of the complaints. I mean... how much easier can the boss fights get? I know plenty of people who kill Valindra on Dragon. The people that tend to exploit / farm / etc on bosses, usually are the worst players I come across... and when I'm in groups that actually require them to fight, do they fail... yeah a large percentage of the time.
If people actually took the time to get good at their classes... run a dungeon and learn how to master their enemies... the boss fights would seem just as easy.
Now does this game support the casual player... yeah... by adding events like Midsummer, etc. However, most dungeons are not for Casual players... and that's why they fail. If you don't have the mindset to dig out a dungeon... you should really be focusing on the other stuff, crafting, skirmishes, GG supporting the PVP players etc. Otherwise suck it up.
Neverwinter is by and far the EASIEST mmo I've have ever played. EQ -> DAoC -> AC -> Beta (WOW) hated it -> DDO -> LOTRO (hated it) -> Neverwinter. However, if has one of the BEST combat systems of any of them.
This game was released early remember (my guess was to cash back some of the money for development, or be cancelled), it has a lof of potential and it's onyl a few months old.
Coming from Everquest days, I agree that this MMO is by far has the best combat system and one of the easiest. Honestly without it, I would not be playing this. For those that played Everquest, think of the days of camping for your Jboots.
As easy as this game is to me... I fail to understand a lot of the complaints. I mean... how much easier can the boss fights get? I know plenty of people who kill Valindra on Dragon. The people that tend to exploit / farm / etc on bosses, usually are the worst players I come across... and when I'm in groups that actually require them to fight, do they fail... yeah a large percentage of the time.
If people actually took the time to get good at their classes... run a dungeon and learn how to master their enemies... the boss fights would seem just as easy.
Now does this game support the casual player... yeah... by adding events like Midsummer, etc. However, most dungeons are not for Casual players... and that's why they fail. If you don't have the mindset to dig out a dungeon... you should really be focusing on the other stuff, crafting, skirmishes, GG supporting the PVP players etc. Otherwise suck it up.
Neverwinter is by and far the EASIEST mmo I've have ever played. EQ -> DAoC -> AC -> Beta (WOW) hated it -> DDO -> LOTRO (hated it) -> Neverwinter. However, if has one of the BEST combat systems of any of them.
This game was released early remember (my guess was to cash back some of the money for development, or be cancelled), it has a lof of potential and it's onyl a few months old.
Yes but someone needs to actually do the raid,in order to learn what his class should do in raids and decide what skills to slot or what equip to go for etc..
I do not think the problem is the raids difficulty,but getting a party difficulty.
As i said in my other post it is not like some months ago,que times take really alot(at least on my server beholder) sometimes que does not even pop(even in DD..) or when it does some ''exp'' people just see the pt and cause someone has low GS leaves instant killing the pt...
When i leveled up in order to get some basic view on what my class do,how to spec my toon to be more efficient in raids etc i could find pt easily and ''farm'' exp now it is much harder for someone new(and if you dont want to exploit then you prolly gonna be kicked 100% most of the times...).
Also there is a problem with time as well,when it takes so much time to get a pt,and you prolly gonna get a pug one,raids take quite awhile if you wanna do full clear without exploiting(talking about a pt with close to minimum gs).
And time =/= difficulty imo.
i LOL so hard at all the people who are like, if you dont like it, leave, heard that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> back in eq2, funny thing is, i ended up out playing the fan bois in gameplay, irl years, and thus paid more to SOE via my subs lol.
just because you may be complacent and accept the bs here, doesn't mean the rest do and that your view on the matter is superior cause it is already in game.
what it comes down to, is risk vs reward, the rewards for t2 dungeons is t2 gear, but if you NEED full t2 set of gear before even attempting a T2, then what is the reward? satisfaction of completing it? yeh screw that for a joke...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
i LOL so hard at all the people who are like, if you dont like it, leave, heard that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> back in eq2, funny thing is, i ended up out playing the fan bois in gameplay, irl years, and thus paid more to SOE via my subs lol.
just because you may be complacent and accept the bs here, doesn't mean the rest do and that your view on the matter is superior cause it is already in game.
what it comes down to, is risk vs reward, the rewards for t2 dungeons is t2 gear, but if you NEED full t2 set of gear before even attempting a T2, then what is the reward? satisfaction of completing it? yeh screw that for a joke...
Are you serious? I've done EVERY dungeon EXCEPT CN in T1 gear in PUGS successfully about 80% of the time. It's not the gear that makes the player. I've seen people with 12K+ gear scores die in T1 dungeons...
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
what it comes down to, is risk vs reward, the rewards for t2 dungeons is t2 gear, but if you NEED full t2 set of gear before even attempting a T2, then what is the reward? satisfaction of completing it? yeh screw that for a joke...
The thing is it is only a small subset of people that are unable to complete a T2 dungeon without overgearing it.
If you are unable to finish it with T1, crafting or pvp gear then well then i dont know what to say.
I mean either the dungeons are completely way too high tuned and i am some sort of MMO prodigy or they are tuned fine and you are just not that good.
I would lean towards the latter. I dont think i am some sort of prodigy at this game.
You are losing players. Period. It isn't the BoP issue that is really making you lose your player base. It's a contributing factor, but it isn't the cause.
True, but they are losing players because all the exploiters, loot *****s and wanabe l33t no-skill players are gone, leaving a minority consisting of D&D/RPG fans and new players.
Let's take epic Pirates for example ... the Surgeon fight spawns so many adds that a solid group of 5 individuals geared with high T2/CN gear, who team together on a regular basis, and all in voice comms with one another, struggle through the fight with multiple deaths, running back from the starting campfire just to manage adds...The second boss is more of the same. The final boss is actually the most manageable of the fights ...
Epic PK is the easiest T2 dungeon in game. We do it all the time with my guild in less than 30m (our record is 15m) legit, usually without healer and without wipes. I can practically SOLO it (12,5K GS, can do it with 10K GS) if I have a DC with me for healing. It is also a very balanced dungeon because ALL boses aresimilar in terms of difficulty andthereisnobiggap. Verybadexample.
One of the best mixes of players in my guild couldn't come close to killing the second boss, and I have died there horribly the few times I have tried it. Very easy boss, first 2 bosses are easy, 3rd bossis hard and 4th boss is harder. Again bad example. Because you andyourguildcannotdo it does not mean it is too hard or broken or imbalanced...
Malabog's Castle. Show me a video of the devs beating the dragon/Valindra fight. Please. I want to see that it can be done with 5 people in T2/T2.5 gear with some mix of Ancient sets and some other sets. This fight is just a dps check becauseof valindra. Youjust need a group with highenough GS and most important highenough burst damage to nuke herbefore portals. Not a good fightdesign and I prefer skilled fights versusdps-checkfights, but that's the way they did it =/Your described group with T2+ gear and some experience can beat it.
I played UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, Warhammer online, EvE online ... but the mechanics of the real end-game bosses (Valindra and Fulminorax) are unbeatable. I loled. =D So you have played all these games, but you think NW is harder/has harder end bosses? This is the easiest MMORPG I have ever played, so easy that attracted all the super-casual players and exploiters/farmers and instead of making it more challenging...you want them to make it even easier? Am I missing something here?
Rraakan
I agree with all your other comments and suggestions, I just hope they won't make the game even more easy because of posts like this. NW needs more challenging content to attrack more hardcore/active players from other MMOs. And ofc the content needs to be balanced as well, and more open-world, non-linear, featuring things like exploration and discoveries. Just my thoughts on this...
Sorry if you cannot beat a dungeon with the minimum gear score requirement you really are not good enough to beat it.
Try playing some of the dungeons that you can handle with your skill level then gradually move up as your skill level gets higher.
No sarcasm here. I am by no means some sort of phenom at video games. I was able to deal with it. Nut up or shut up.
Ah yes, the inevitable "You're not good enough post.." So by all means don't be critical of the game - just put up with it? You know what? Feedback is a gift. If a lot of people aren't enjoying themselves, Cryptic ought to take notice. "sorry if you can't beat a dungeon..." I don't think that's the point. The point is... wait for it... Fun.. Some of us play games to have fun. It isn't a job. if you enjoy slogging through waves of adds in buggy instances while rubber-banding around the instance by all means, sing the praises of those who developed that experience and in your vernacular, "shut up." - opinion expressed.
Many of us however are finding this a little dull and are hoping the shortcomings get addressed or will in all likelihood move to something else.
Comments
I also don't like the adds, but with a well geared party you still melt them in seconds. A guild will help a lot in this game, I agree it shouldn't be a necessity but here in NW it does seem to help a lot. I have more then 4 friends on my list to play with
Black Lotus
http://nl.twitch.tv/wixardofoz
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I have found time and time again the people that have the most heartburn about different aspects of this multiplayer game are the ones that play it alone.
from someone in forums is when they are closing a thread. You missed that one,
but communication is a HUGE deal. At least let the players know the future direction
of the game (even vaguely).
Its still beyond me why you cant add people to a party at any point. Makes absolutely
zero sense. Zero.
Im not sold on the BOP situation. Look at the way things stand now. As a new
player to the game (which I have to imagine is key to keeping the game going)
they have very limited ways of making AD, and VERY few options outside of time
to gear up. The payers who have been around since day 1 had the liberty of gearing
their new 60s from accumulated AD, glory or GG coins.
IMO all your toons should share progress. If someone in the guild needs my X class
but I want to play Y, I should at least be able to keep the share the currency in order
to fit the role they need.
I think this is alienating not only the casual player base, but the more serious player group that doesn't want to sell out their friendships to guild up with a high-turnover, heartless "progression group" just to experience endgame.
I love this game, enough to have paid for the expansion and the founder pack. But between bugs and exploits and poorly tuned endgame, all my friends have left or are leaving. Please fix these things before pushing out any more new content, or this excellent idea of a game is going to crash and burn.
Karrandax is miserable now.. Not fun at all... Doable yes. Fun.. no
When i read through this thred it becomes clear how difficult it is to tune the difficulty of this game "just right". I think you need some kind of challange. Make it too easy and any kind of accomplishment is gone. And i think it's good to have goals to work towards. Not only when it comes to the GS but also the skill.
Maybe today CN or MC is too much for you and your group (btw i am talking only legitimate, exploiters "beat" dungeons the same way as shoplifters "buy" from stores) but a few weeks of pratice will get you there. And of course, there are the pro gamers (not sure what percentage of the player base fall in that category) who think this game is already on the easy side and if they tune the difficulty down, they will lose them.
Still, i think for casual gamers, people who get in one or two hours after work and maybe a bit more on the weekends, the game at level 60 is pretty tough. It gets really frustrating when you can't finish a dungeon 5 time in a row. Sure a guild with skilled players or a good friend list might help but that can't be the sollution.
Another problem with the difficulty i think is that the leveling part is pretty short and not too much of a challange. People don't really get to learn the class before they hit max level and hardly ever get in a sticky situation where skill or teamplay is required. When they hit level 60 and the harder T1 or the T2 dungeons it's like going from 2 to 10.
I am not saying that you should be able to breeze through the epic dungeons with min GS and a PUG the first time you try it but a T2 dungeon should be manageable without 11k+ GS and a skill of the top 3%. I honestly don't have clue what difficulty would be the right one because it obviously seems to be very subjective what is difficult and what is not, so no matter what they do, they will <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> some people off, I guess it's just a matter of what part of population is most valueable to the devs.
In any case the dungeons do need to be tuned better to provide a doable challenge for the casual gamer, not just be a grind for the hardcore. The best solution would be to actually develop better mechanics for the bosses, but to lessen the number of adds would be a good intermediate step.
Sorry if you cannot beat a dungeon with the minimum gear score requirement you really are not good enough to beat it.
Try playing some of the dungeons that you can handle with your skill level then gradually move up as your skill level gets higher.
No sarcasm here. I am by no means some sort of phenom at video games. I was able to deal with it. Nut up or shut up.
Take a look at the number of posters that have responded with "a well geared group" or some version thereof. Look at the LFG chat posts, that say 11k+GS required in order to join the run, no dungeon has a minimum that high. That is what I am referring to. This is the advice the OP is getting, over gear for the dungeon. He should not have to do that in order to have a chance of beating the dungeon. Not to mention the issue of getting a group together to run a T1 dungeon so you can learn, even if you are in a guild.
While your comment applies to my first sentence, what is your response to the rest of my post?
No offense but your post you are referring to kinda meanders around. At the end of the day you are saying you should not have to overgear content to be able to beat it.
Good news you dont have to.
Pugging is what it is. Try it in any game whether its ranked in league, or raid in wow, or whatever it is doesnt matter it is always dicey. That is just nature of the beast.
Step your game up. If your game is stepped up and you still have problems then make friends. What else is there to say?
I am the definition of a casual player and i have no issues. Could the mechanics be better? Sure. They have already shown they want to work out of the adds mechanic as exhibited by their latest dungeon, they are not going to go back and retrofit old dungeons with new mechanics.
Well, they could take note of many players that are struggeling with the game in the current state and tone it down, I'm not saying this is the way to go but i know it's not fun not to be able to beat a huge chunk of the game. Saying "Get better!" or "Learn to play!" is maybe an advice not all can follow because lack of time or skill prevents it.
Of course it would make the really good players not very happy if they would for example reduce the HP of enemies globaly in dungeons by X% but they could just build mega hard foundrys to endulge themselfs. I'm not sure but maybe the offical game for the most part should be open for all players and not just the elite.
Incoming "L2P" "find a guild" from the fanboi 5%.
And could the fanbois please explain why then open channel groups are always looking for players geared far beyond the minimum gs reqs for the zone they want to run.
In fact dont bother. Its like talking with politicians, pointless.
so prolly as a low gs you gotta que up random party most of the times.
So its like,wait in que which lately does not even pop anymore for whole DD,and if it does you get a random party with mostly low gs random players that do not end up well.
When i leveled to 60 in july things werent excactly like this to be honest.Que times were much better and there were more high gs or average gs exp people queing up.Lately i hardly see this.(and by ''exp'' i do not mean exploit^^.)
To the people that say t2 are easy etc,yes the raids are doable with close to minimum gs,and if its a group of ppl that raided with each other abit and know what to do and know their class it can be ''easy''(easy in terms of doing the raid knowing you will finish it and you will not fail).
But the way raids are now,for a ''fresh'' 60 with low gs is pretty hard to ''learn'' his class and what to do in raids...to get to the point were raids will seem ''easy'' and fun...
(way raids are atm=long que time even when DD and sometimes u never get into pt,random pt mostly that no end up very well,lots of time spent for not so much reward)....
I wouldn't hold my breath, lol. They haven't been listening for months despite saying that they listen to the community a lot.
WASTING MY TIME ON DD AND GETTING CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP won't spend my time anymore on this CRAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
You're quite wrong, I'm positive they're listening, quite closely at that. They're not catering, however, which is a completely different conversations - though IMO it's the right thing to do.
Lol no, leave that stuff to core content. Special evens are supposed to be special and fun. Summer festival is great fun, and is a nice diversion from other stuff. Even if you're too pretentiously "hardcore" to enjoy it, don't be a spoilsport for the rest of us.
Of course people ask for high gear score.
"Hey LF mechanic to work on my car. Prefer one with really old broken tools and not much experience with transmission issues to fix my transmission."
Asking for a certain requirement and the dungeon requiring it are two way different things.
Lemme get this straight. You want Cryptic to nerf all dungeons not because they are too hard but because people in pugs and LFG are asking for too high of a GS requirement?
This just in... end game dungeons arent easy.
This just in... 5 mans take communication and understanding not usually prevalent in PuGs.
This just in... you dont deserve to win just because you try.
Please pick up your participation trophy at the door.
Which is why I'll never bother with any sort of group-play in Neverwinter; skirmishes, dungeons, teams, because I have no interest in being a min-maxer like the devs want and expect me to be. I'll do it in STO and CO because the games there are far better balanced (and the gamer population *appear* to be a lot friendlier to helping others out).
I have been saying since closed-beta and Alpha: end bosses (in both: solo-PvE and group-PvE) are ridiculously over-powered *as compared to the rest* of the run. There should not be such a huge spike in skill-level-requirement. But this isn't really my complaint. My complaint (regarding SOLO-PVE) is with *how long it takes* to complete a stupid-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>$ boss fight.
My thoughts on it: Make the boss hit points weaker (easier to kill); but also make his/her strikes harder (able to kill the player in a two, or three-shot) and thin-out the stupid adds.
In other words: I love the challenging aspect of boss fights, but I hate the dumass amount of TIME it takes in that one stupid area of a solo-PVE instance: 20-minutes exploring and fighting my way to the boss, then 20-goddam-more-minutes to defeat the boss *IF* I don't have to respawn (which adds a dumass EXTRA three minutes for EACH dumass "injury" - okay, PUH-LEESE. If I do have to respawn... goodgawdalmighty - some of your solo-PVE instances can take 90-goddam-minutes to complete in some cases.
This is why I have been playing less and less the higher my player-rank-level gets. I have a DC at level 55. It'll probably be another three months before I decide to push that character into 60, if at all. It's more fun playing low-level alts into the 40's, then rinsing and repeating... until I get so tired of it that I stop playing altogether.
FIX.
THIS.
ROOT.
PROBLEM.
But that's the thing, if you need T2 gear to finish T2 dungeons but only get T2 gear from T2 dungeons, than that's a problem. And a lot of people, me included, feel that way.
A dev stated they do not play their own game at end-level, they're letting the players sort it out for themselves. If that's true it would explain the score of bugs and exploits in the dungeons, as well as the difficulty level. I think there's no way to justifiable say how difficult a dungeons really is, it's become all about which bugs work in your favor and how to exploit them.
I also think a lot of the posters who reply with stuff like "L2P", "get better gear" and "join a good guild" are forgetting that they got their experience gear, and guild when there were more exploits and stuff available to buy. In other words, they had it a lot easier than now.
I agree with the OP's sentiment, I loved the game initially, but post-60 is where it all starts to lose its luster. It doesn't have the same feeling of quality about it. To me it seems Perfect World bough a great solo-game and then ordered Cryptic to turn it into an MMO to make them a lot of money. I don't know who's dropping the ball or where, but a lot of the design decisions and coding priorities are silly at best and plain wrong at worst.
For me, I'd say they need to start by better communication and interaction with their playerbase. Cutesy remarks on twitter just don't cut it. The devs replying to selected threads at the forum is great, they need to expand on that. It shouldn't be frustrated players taking polls on which bugs needs to be fixed first or what improvement needs to be implemented. That's Cryptic's job!
If people actually took the time to get good at their classes... run a dungeon and learn how to master their enemies... the boss fights would seem just as easy.
Now does this game support the casual player... yeah... by adding events like Midsummer, etc. However, most dungeons are not for Casual players... and that's why they fail. If you don't have the mindset to dig out a dungeon... you should really be focusing on the other stuff, crafting, skirmishes, GG supporting the PVP players etc. Otherwise suck it up.
Neverwinter is by and far the EASIEST mmo I've have ever played. EQ -> DAoC -> AC -> Beta (WOW) hated it -> DDO -> LOTRO (hated it) -> Neverwinter. However, if has one of the BEST combat systems of any of them.
This game was released early remember (my guess was to cash back some of the money for development, or be cancelled), it has a lof of potential and it's onyl a few months old.
Coming from Everquest days, I agree that this MMO is by far has the best combat system and one of the easiest. Honestly without it, I would not be playing this. For those that played Everquest, think of the days of camping for your Jboots.
Yes but someone needs to actually do the raid,in order to learn what his class should do in raids and decide what skills to slot or what equip to go for etc..
I do not think the problem is the raids difficulty,but getting a party difficulty.
As i said in my other post it is not like some months ago,que times take really alot(at least on my server beholder) sometimes que does not even pop(even in DD..) or when it does some ''exp'' people just see the pt and cause someone has low GS leaves instant killing the pt...
When i leveled up in order to get some basic view on what my class do,how to spec my toon to be more efficient in raids etc i could find pt easily and ''farm'' exp now it is much harder for someone new(and if you dont want to exploit then you prolly gonna be kicked 100% most of the times...).
Also there is a problem with time as well,when it takes so much time to get a pt,and you prolly gonna get a pug one,raids take quite awhile if you wanna do full clear without exploiting(talking about a pt with close to minimum gs).
And time =/= difficulty imo.
just because you may be complacent and accept the bs here, doesn't mean the rest do and that your view on the matter is superior cause it is already in game.
what it comes down to, is risk vs reward, the rewards for t2 dungeons is t2 gear, but if you NEED full t2 set of gear before even attempting a T2, then what is the reward? satisfaction of completing it? yeh screw that for a joke...
Are you serious? I've done EVERY dungeon EXCEPT CN in T1 gear in PUGS successfully about 80% of the time. It's not the gear that makes the player. I've seen people with 12K+ gear scores die in T1 dungeons...
The thing is it is only a small subset of people that are unable to complete a T2 dungeon without overgearing it.
If you are unable to finish it with T1, crafting or pvp gear then well then i dont know what to say.
I mean either the dungeons are completely way too high tuned and i am some sort of MMO prodigy or they are tuned fine and you are just not that good.
I would lean towards the latter. I dont think i am some sort of prodigy at this game.
I agree with all your other comments and suggestions, I just hope they won't make the game even more easy because of posts like this. NW needs more challenging content to attrack more hardcore/active players from other MMOs. And ofc the content needs to be balanced as well, and more open-world, non-linear, featuring things like exploration and discoveries. Just my thoughts on this...
Holy Resurrector and Grand Master of OPUS DEI
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
http://opusdei.abyssportal.com
Ah yes, the inevitable "You're not good enough post.." So by all means don't be critical of the game - just put up with it? You know what? Feedback is a gift. If a lot of people aren't enjoying themselves, Cryptic ought to take notice. "sorry if you can't beat a dungeon..." I don't think that's the point. The point is... wait for it... Fun.. Some of us play games to have fun. It isn't a job. if you enjoy slogging through waves of adds in buggy instances while rubber-banding around the instance by all means, sing the praises of those who developed that experience and in your vernacular, "shut up." - opinion expressed.
Many of us however are finding this a little dull and are hoping the shortcomings get addressed or will in all likelihood move to something else.