The harder the dungeons the less people who can do them.
The less people who can do them the harder it is to find a group.
The harder it is to find a group the longer you sit in town spamming.
The longer you sit in town spamming the more you get bored.
The more you get bored the more you look for a new game.
In theory there are any number of ways to improve your skill with your character, so the suggestion to get better at playing the dungeons is not all that unreasonable, in theory. The best way to get better is to practice in the dungeons, accepting you will wipe a number of times before you get it right. There are number of problems with this theory/plan.
1)Actually finding a group that will allow you practice. Finding a group just run a dungeon is a chore. Queue times take an hour or more, drastically cutting into game time. Using the LFG chat may get you one or two people willing run with you, but that takes even longer than the queue, because nobody likes running with a ****. When the queue does pop and you admit to being inexperienced, you will find yourself kicked before the electrons you disturbed with your message have even had chance to settle back down. These PUGs also tend to be such speed groups, that you really have no time figure what it is you did right or wrong before you are in the next fight. They also tend to filled with ragequitters that leave as soon as they figure out you aren't an expert, thereby ending that "practice" session.
2)Find friends to practice with. Considering nobody even bothers to talk outside of the festival zone, and the PE zone chat is filled
griefers, this isn't very easy either. New players aren't likely to have found 5 players to be friends with, let alone ones that are all on at the same time.
3)Find a guild. Most guilds won't accept you unless you are highly geared with experience. Of course the whole point of joining the guild is gain that experience so you can become highly geared. Apart from that finding a good guild in an MMO is a minefield unto itself.
4)Find a mentor. Now with all of the players that say the "dungeons are easy" and if "you can't beat it your not good enough" this should be easy, right? All of these L2P posters should be stepping up to show the new players how to play you would think. I haven't seen any of them offering this service though. You can read the guides here in the forum, but it still takes actual practice to get good at it.
In the end, between bad dungeon mechanics, exploiters, and unfriendly players learning is not the easiest thing in the world. The unfriendly players will always be here, but the bugs, mechanics, and exploits can be fixed so that new players can have fun trying to make it through a dungeon even with a number of unsuccessful attempts.
The harder the dungeons the less people who can do them.
The less people who can do them the harder it is to find a group.
The harder it is to find a group the longer you sit in town spamming.
The longer you sit in town spamming the more you get bored.
The more you get bored the more you look for a new game.
As the req for malabog is 9.2k, i would like to see a video of party around 9.2k gs doing valindra and fulminorax.
people are looking for bugs just because doing bosses normal way is too hard. Even if u manage to do it somehow, u get crappy item or no item at all, so u think twice before next time- "should i queue this dungeon again?it was so hard last time and i get nothing, if this happen again?"
Deep in ur head u know that going to that dungeon will not be fun,great and entertaining. This will be frustrating and time consuming.
That way u stop to like the game, more and more, then u quit.
The general purpose of every game is to be fun,to let you spend time in pleasant way, to let u chill after work or school, not to make u more frustrated.
Its sad that some developers forgot it and serve players nonstop-hardcore-grind.
1)Actually finding a group that will allow you practice. Finding a group just run a dungeon is a chore. Queue times take an hour or more, drastically cutting into game time. Using the LFG chat may get you one or two people willing run with you, but that takes even longer than the queue, because nobody likes running with a ****. When the queue does pop and you admit to being inexperienced, you will find yourself kicked before the electrons you disturbed with your message have even had chance to settle back down. These PUGs also tend to be such speed groups, that you really have no time figure what it is you did right or wrong before you are in the next fight. They also tend to filled with ragequitters that leave as soon as they figure out you aren't an expert, thereby ending that "practice" session.
Yeah, this is my main gripe with all these things that people tell us to do like: "just play more to get experienced and find a group". Of course, if you then say you have difficulty finding a group, they'll throw their anecdotical evidence/experience at you saying that they didn't find it hard, and therefor you shouldn't either. That's one part bull**** and another part rude.
Meanwhile, people in PE ALWAYS, and I repeat ALWAYS, ask for experienced people when running dungeons like MC and CN. I'm pretty sure if someone were to type in "LFG CN, want to learn the dungeon" or something along those lines, it would either get ignored or griefed/flamed on. Because people want experienced guys, and if all the experienced guys are taken, then anyone who is not experienced is left in the dark. It happened with Fardelver as well. I had to pretend to be experienced when people were inviting me, or I simply would not be able to get into a group (even as a DC!). So yeah, it happened with FD, it's happening with CN and MC right now as well. I even remember people yelling for experienced players for MC on the first day you could get to it! (Which is about 3 days after release?) I mean, sure it was on the preview shard but still..you expect people to already know what the hell to do on day one? Be realistic people.
Anyway, say this trend continues. My guess is eventually all the "experienced" players have their loot, and the unexperienced ones run the dungeon by themselves, failing several times(or just not getting in at all b/c inexperienced and such). Meanwhile, the experienced guys call it quits, and leave. And then no one knows how to play the dungeon anymore. And then people ***** about inexperienced people. The funny thing is, if you play with experienced people a lot, you should be getting the rewards pretty regularly. So why not spend some time teaching others how to play? Not only will it help them out, because they'll get phat lewtz, but it'll also help YOU out, because next time, you'll have a slightly bigger chance of getting a response to your "need exp people for CN", because there's simply MORE people around who know what to do. In short: Help people out when they need it, and you'll improve on both sides. Your part of the improvement will also be that you're learning how to deal with inexperienced people, and guiding them through the dungeon. Of course, there'll have to be a mentality of patience on their side as well, as they need you to run them through the dungeon, so they can't exactly Leeroy it up. But that depends on the person, and if I was trying to help someone through a dungeon, and they would refuse to listen, I would throw them out (and rightly so if I may say so).
Just my 2 cents though.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
Anyway, say this trend continues. My guess is eventually all the "experienced" players have their loot, and the unexperienced ones run the dungeon by themselves, failing several times(or just not getting in at all b/c inexperienced and such). Meanwhile, the experienced guys call it quits, and leave. And then no one knows how to play the dungeon anymore. And then people ***** about inexperienced people. The funny thing is, if you play with experienced people a lot, you should be getting the rewards pretty regularly. So why not spend some time teaching others how to play? Not only will it help them out, because they'll get phat lewtz, but it'll also help YOU out, because next time, you'll have a slightly bigger chance of getting a response to your "need exp people for CN", because there's simply MORE people around who know what to do. In short: Help people out when they need it, and you'll improve on both sides. Your part of the improvement will also be that you're learning how to deal with inexperienced people, and guiding them through the dungeon. Of course, there'll have to be a mentality of patience on their side as well, as they need you to run them through the dungeon, so they can't exactly Leeroy it up. But that depends on the person, and if I was trying to help someone through a dungeon, and they would refuse to listen, I would throw them out (and rightly so if I may say so).
It's a young game, it's a young community. People will learn to learn, and learn to teach with time.
Then again the "experienced" people got there through trial and error, so that still works, we just need time for people to stop b*tching about BoP, or for new blood who hasn't seen pre-BoP NW to flow in.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
As the req for malabog is 9.2k, i would like to see a video of party around 9.2k gs doing valindra and fulminorax.
people are looking for bugs just because doing bosses normal way is too hard. Even if u manage to do it somehow, u get crappy item or no item at all, so u think twice before next time- "should i queue this dungeon again?it was so hard last time and i get nothing, if this happen again?"
Deep in ur head u know that going to that dungeon will not be fun,great and entertaining. This will be frustrating and time consuming.
That way u stop to like the game, more and more, then u quit.
The general purpose of every game is to be fun,to let you spend time in pleasant way, to let u chill after work or school, not to make u more frustrated.
Its sad that some developers forgot it and serve players nonstop-hardcore-grind.
Thing is... having destroyed a dungeon and getting epic loot to me is NOT rewarding and thus NOT fun. What is there to do if you go through all the dungeons as cake, get all the loot you want easily? I don't know about you, but I like a challenge... this isn't meant to be a 30 hour single player game. It's meant to be a game that continually challenges you so you come back and feel good when you finally get something accomplished.
I mean.. If you want a quick fix, then an MMO is probably not the right genre for you. If you think they devs can keep creating content at will to keep you happy creaming through dungeons and getting epic loot... I mean REALLY?! That is if anything LESS fun... what would be the point if you got everything you wanted handed to you? You'd play get it, have to wait for the devs to do something more and would probably do something else in the mean time. I mean it just DOESN'T make sense.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
edited September 2013
so reading more and more posts... What I'm seeing in the trend here is people don't want to join a guild (kind of a core theme in D&D MMOs, and PnP) and are frustrated with the single player experience. I got news for you guys... plenty of free RPGs on Facebook that are REALLY **** good.
I mean even table top, you have to have a group of "friends" to play with. You don't randomly walk up to someone of the street and ask them to play with you. You don't play PnP D&D by yourself or with random people... You play with friends!
Get some! You don't have to form a guild... AND you only need 5 people! Come on how hard can that be!
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
In theory there are any number of ways to improve your skill with your character, so the suggestion to get better at playing the dungeons is not all that unreasonable, in theory. The best way to get better is to practice in the dungeons, accepting you will wipe a number of times before you get it right. There are number of problems with this theory/plan.
1)Actually finding a group that will allow you practice. Finding a group just run a dungeon is a chore. Queue times take an hour or more, drastically cutting into game time. Using the LFG chat may get you one or two people willing run with you, but that takes even longer than the queue, because nobody likes running with a ****. When the queue does pop and you admit to being inexperienced, you will find yourself kicked before the electrons you disturbed with your message have even had chance to settle back down. These PUGs also tend to be such speed groups, that you really have no time figure what it is you did right or wrong before you are in the next fight. They also tend to filled with ragequitters that leave as soon as they figure out you aren't an expert, thereby ending that "practice" session.
2)Find friends to practice with. Considering nobody even bothers to talk outside of the festival zone, and the PE zone chat is filled
griefers, this isn't very easy either. New players aren't likely to have found 5 players to be friends with, let alone ones that are all on at the same time.
3)Find a guild. Most guilds won't accept you unless you are highly geared with experience. Of course the whole point of joining the guild is gain that experience so you can become highly geared. Apart from that finding a good guild in an MMO is a minefield unto itself.
4)Find a mentor. Now with all of the players that say the "dungeons are easy" and if "you can't beat it your not good enough" this should be easy, right? All of these L2P posters should be stepping up to show the new players how to play you would think. I haven't seen any of them offering this service though. You can read the guides here in the forum, but it still takes actual practice to get good at it.
In the end, between bad dungeon mechanics, exploiters, and unfriendly players learning is not the easiest thing in the world. The unfriendly players will always be here, but the bugs, mechanics, and exploits can be fixed so that new players can have fun trying to make it through a dungeon even with a number of unsuccessful attempts.
See now I agree with everything you said here... that's why my guild Wyld Ones and our sister guild Avatars of Discord take people of all skill and levels. We help gear people up, and we practice dungeons all the time with our less geared guildies. We pick up PUGs all the time... and if they listen will gladly friend them.
I don't join groups that run regular dungeons and REQUIRE you to be a certain gear score... elitest ******bags that probably suck anyway. I've had PUGS with lowered GS people that went smoothly, then joined a few of these "required" groups and all they want to do is exploit and can't handle a real fight. So now I avoid them.
That being said AoD recruits anyone including casual players. Wyld Ones ONLY recruits people we have played with (and yes we PUG ALOT) that are going to want to grind for gear etc, and will play just about everyday. Why? Because we believe the guild that plays together, stays together...
So to anyone on Dragon server here is your invitation to come play with us. Do not randomly invite us, send us a tell... (it does not have to be during a delve) and ask us if we have room.... Need to do a T1 so that you can get up to a T2... we will help! We use Teamspeak to communicate and have guest channels. US based hours 6PM to 1AM typically.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited September 2013
Now, I have done pretty much everything in the game (OK, I have not managed to beat the final MC boss, or do epic DV with a PUG) and I have pretty decent gear (DC with over 13K GS), but I have pretty much stopped doing DD, except occasionally to join in helping some guildmates who just reached lvl 60 and are gearing up.
For me, it is all about enjoyment, and the dungeons just don't provide that any more...some of them are really too easy, others are too tedious. Then there is the whole reward/effort ratio - if I spend an hour of my life doing a dungeon, that's an hour that is not coming back, so what do I get for it? Sure, I may be lucky and get a BoE drop that can be sold for a decent amount, but most of the time I just get some blues and BoP purples. Sure, I can vendor the blues, but why? I already have over 300 gold - really don't need any more. As for the BoP purples - I really don't need more rough AD. I have hit the 24K limit every day for the last two months, and currently have around 400,000 waiting to be refined - I have no need to add to that pile.
Sure, I may get some (useless) seals, or maybe a enchantment shard, but really ... if I spent that hour playing the AH instead, I would make enough AD to buy several shards.
So, to me, it's not about difficulty - it is about being fun, and giving appropriate reward for the effort - and that's where the problem is (well, MC final boss excluded, but that feels really more like a bug to me).
Hoping for improvements...
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As easy as this game is to me... I fail to understand a lot of the complaints. I mean... how much easier can the boss fights get? I know plenty of people who kill Valindra on Dragon. The people that tend to exploit / farm / etc on bosses, usually are the worst players I come across... and when I'm in groups that actually require them to fight, do they fail... yeah a large percentage of the time.
If people actually took the time to get good at their classes... run a dungeon and learn how to master their enemies... the boss fights would seem just as easy.
Now does this game support the casual player... yeah... by adding events like Midsummer, etc. However, most dungeons are not for Casual players... and that's why they fail. If you don't have the mindset to dig out a dungeon... you should really be focusing on the other stuff, crafting, skirmishes, GG supporting the PVP players etc. Otherwise suck it up.
Neverwinter is by and far the EASIEST mmo I've have ever played. EQ -> DAoC -> AC -> Beta (WOW) hated it -> DDO -> LOTRO (hated it) -> Neverwinter. However, if has one of the BEST combat systems of any of them.
This game was released early remember (my guess was to cash back some of the money for development, or be cancelled), it has a lof of potential and it's onyl a few months old.
+10000
The casual and exploit players always think this game is hard.
They tested the content for difficulty before release... and then they doubled it... LOL ok for serious comments..
What really needs to happen Cryptic is that there is NO reward for killing trash. What NEEDS to happen is in T1 trash drops r5-r6 enchants and T2+ Trash can drop R6-R7s. This solves the issue of people not wanted to do trash.
The other BIG factor here is that the boss mechanic IS to spawn tons of adds. Please remove HALF of the boss spawn adds and let the boss himself actually dish out more damage.
T1s should be dooable with a group of the min gear score. T2 should be doable with a group of min gear score.
Please adjust the difficulty of these and if you want an insanely hard PVE dungeon make an insane GS requirement. But DONT make it hard BECAUSE of adds, make it hard BECAUSE of mechanics.... I mean how hard is it to create an ability that is an aoe with decent range with a 5-6 second RED warning area that will one shot players (or close to it)
hey there is a tough mechanic! avoid the red or you die. THAT is the fun type of thing that requires some teamwork. Not having CWs chain throw things...
Or other machanics like you have to burn the boss to X% in X time or the boss gets a buff... Or hey, give a 4 phase boss where its increasingly harder each phase so the idea is to burn her as much as possible during the lighter phases... I mean SO many options here I just cant see how its only "OOOO I know! Spawn MORE adds!"
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focusmanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
Ok I already made some comments on this thread but:
- Someone reacted that Midsummer = nice. Well I don't know but spending time chasing pigs.......no further comments. But thats my opinion.
- People who complain about dungeons to hard but forget it is F2P stop whining. If you dont want wipes 2 things can be done:
1. Pay for Zen, exchange for AD > Buy GEAR
2. Spent more time on it to farm AD etc and collect the gear yourself.
- Why GS 9200 on dungeons and dont make the final boss? Guess what Cryptic wants you to pay so you can get the gear actually needed for it!!
- Note: It can be done with 10k gs parties but not with random pugs/ques (or be lucky)
So stop whining and find good people to play with? Oh **** you don't have the gear so other ppl don't want to play with you? Well ..pay something and get the gear so you can join well-geared parties who make every dungeon a piece-of-cake. Or as said before start farming, spend more time on it but don't whine.
+1 to OP.
T1s should be dooable with a group of the min gear score. T2 should be doable with a group of min gear score.
Having a week and a half just power leveled a CW to 60 non-twink... running 90% of the time with PUGs in dungeons with green and blue gear to get my T1s... I don't see the issue. I had to PVP to get 2 pieces of Gear (as you can no longer transport from another toon) I ran CT and CC to raise my score... before that... with green and blues (which frop liek crazy now btw) My gear score was 7200. I had 0 problems running T1s with PUGs. Fast forward to this week, playing with some new guildies all at least 8K plus... and highest at 12K+ we failed Lair of Mad Dragon 3 times.
Why do you think that is?
1) 3 people were brand new to the dungeon.
2) Party imbalance we had 3CWs, DC, and a 1st timer rogue
Would we fail again in a week or 2 don't count on it...
mind you pugging... I completed it with ease with only one person above/around 10K and the rest between 5K and 8.5K GS... they all had alt toons and were experienced players.
You don't play PnP D&D by yourself or with random people... You play with friends!
You are right. The only problem is, I don't need Neverwinter to play DnD with friends. I have alot of options (free shards, coop mode of single player games, or just lfg in a PnP forum and meet for "real" DnD with a game master) that give me more variety then endless grind against stupid KI NPCs.
The only reason for me to play a MMORPG is the MMO aspect.
They tested the content for difficulty before release... and then they doubled it... LOL ok for serious comments..
What really needs to happen Cryptic is that there is NO reward for killing trash. What NEEDS to happen is in T1 trash drops r5-r6 enchants and T2+ Trash can drop R6-R7s. This solves the issue of people not wanted to do trash.
The other BIG factor here is that the boss mechanic IS to spawn tons of adds. Please remove HALF of the boss spawn adds and let the boss himself actually dish out more damage.
T1s should be dooable with a group of the min gear score. T2 should be doable with a group of min gear score.
Please adjust the difficulty of these and if you want an insanely hard PVE dungeon make an insane GS requirement. But DONT make it hard BECAUSE of adds, make it hard BECAUSE of mechanics.... I mean how hard is it to create an ability that is an aoe with decent range with a 5-6 second RED warning area that will one shot players (or close to it)
hey there is a tough mechanic! avoid the red or you die. THAT is the fun type of thing that requires some teamwork. Not having CWs chain throw things...
Or other machanics like you have to burn the boss to X% in X time or the boss gets a buff... Or hey, give a 4 phase boss where its increasingly harder each phase so the idea is to burn her as much as possible during the lighter phases... I mean SO many options here I just cant see how its only "OOOO I know! Spawn MORE adds!"
The reward for killing the monsters is, getting to the bosses...
or else the developers could just leave the dungeon empty and place a boss right at the entrance.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
They tested the content for difficulty before release... and then they doubled it... LOL ok for serious comments..
What really needs to happen Cryptic is that there is NO reward for killing trash. What NEEDS to happen is in T1 trash drops r5-r6 enchants and T2+ Trash can drop R6-R7s. This solves the issue of people not wanted to do trash.
The other BIG factor here is that the boss mechanic IS to spawn tons of adds. Please remove HALF of the boss spawn adds and let the boss himself actually dish out more damage.
T1s should be dooable with a group of the min gear score. T2 should be doable with a group of min gear score.
Please adjust the difficulty of these and if you want an insanely hard PVE dungeon make an insane GS requirement. But DONT make it hard BECAUSE of adds, make it hard BECAUSE of mechanics.... I mean how hard is it to create an ability that is an aoe with decent range with a 5-6 second RED warning area that will one shot players (or close to it)
hey there is a tough mechanic! avoid the red or you die. THAT is the fun type of thing that requires some teamwork. Not having CWs chain throw things...
Or other machanics like you have to burn the boss to X% in X time or the boss gets a buff... Or hey, give a 4 phase boss where its increasingly harder each phase so the idea is to burn her as much as possible during the lighter phases... I mean SO many options here I just cant see how its only "OOOO I know! Spawn MORE adds!"
"What really needs to happen Cryptic is that there is NO reward for killing trash. What NEEDS to happen is in T1 trash drops r5-r6 enchants and T2+ Trash can drop R6-R7s. This solves the issue of people not wanted to do trash." - No because people will just farm the trash instead. This will devalue the economy.
"The other BIG factor here is that the boss mechanic IS to spawn tons of adds. Please remove HALF of the boss spawn adds and let the boss himself actually dish out more damage." - Ridiculous. With the right party you don't even have to worry about the adds in most fights. You can simply group them all on the boss and AOE mow them down.
"Please adjust the difficulty of these and if you want an insanely hard PVE dungeon make an insane GS requirement. But DONT make it hard BECAUSE of adds, make it hard BECAUSE of mechanics.... I mean how hard is it to create an ability that is an aoe with decent range with a 5-6 second RED warning area that will one shot players (or close to it)" - Most fights are not hard because of adds, they are hard because you have bad players, players with low gear, and players that stand in red circles.
This game already has a set difficulty, but I can tell you from MMO experience it isn't near as hard as other games I have played. You can learn these fights pretty easily and get to the point they feel like cakewalk. You need to put more time and effort into the game.
This game already has a set difficulty, but I can tell you from MMO experience it isn't near as hard as other games I have played. You can learn these fights pretty easily and get to the point they feel like cakewalk. You need to put more time and effort into the game.
Yep... I think it's because this game is free, maybe a lot of first time MMOers are jumping in. I've said it more than once.... by FAR the easiest MMO I have ever played. The reason I like it... the combat system, and it's potential based on it.
I can't even find a full group for NC lol. Queue system sucks. Anyway, I'm in t1 epic gear, bought it off ah, and have lost a lot of interest in this game. Been trying other games. I log in still and do pvp dailies and the fey dailies, thats it. Oh, and manage professions. At lower levels I would play the game like 24 hrs straight lol I loved it so much. I'm rooting for this game, and hope to be back if I do leave.
- People who complain about dungeons to hard but forget it is F2P stop whining. If you dont want wipes 2 things can be done:
1. Pay for Zen, exchange for AD > Buy GEAR
2. Spent more time on it to farm AD etc and collect the gear yourself.
- Why GS 9200 on dungeons and dont make the final boss? Guess what Cryptic wants you to pay so you can get the gear actually needed for it!!
- Note: It can be done with 10k gs parties but not with random pugs/ques (or be lucky)
So stop whining and find good people to play with? Oh **** you don't have the gear so other ppl don't want to play with you? Well ..pay something and get the gear so you can join well-geared parties who make every dungeon a piece-of-cake. Or as said before start farming, spend more time on it but don't whine.
This is absolute bullcrap. You shouldn't be excluded from content just because you didn't pay for high level gear. If there is a minimum gear score amount for a dungeon, it should be HARD to complete the dungeon at that level, but not impossible. Something people also need to remember is that the actual number means very very little. Sure it means something but people think that if they have a 15k GS GF that they're cool and awesome and super powerful. Yes, they probably have a very specific build (actual DPS iirc) but that's not exactly what a GF is for. Sure you want to do damage, but your main role is to tank. If I'm looking for a tank, I don't want a DPS. If I want DPS, I'll get a GWF or a TR, not a GF turned DPS.
Also, paying for gear because you don't have it? Guess where you get most of the gear you need: In Dungeons. So you shouldn't need to pay. This game is F2P as you said yourself. This means that you should be able to play and complete all the content for this game without having to pay anything. Paying for things might get you stuff faster, but you still won't have the skills to complete dungeons, because the main reason people are being refused is because of lack of experience. Guess how you get it? Run dungeons. Guess what they can't do? Dungeons. See a pattern here?
Now finally, I saw someone say people don't want to join guilds. This is not always true. While some guilds are nice, others can be downright brutal, like having a few rules on activity, which is still understandable, but when it starts being GS related and dungeon completion related, it starts getting worse. Not to mention often times people just do whatever they want. Not everyone searches for the same things in a guild. Add to that the fact that some people are actually not comfortable communicating with others online (which brings up the question of why they're playing an MMO but that's not the point here)
All in all, the experienced players should, imo, pass on their knowledge to the inexperienced if they can. They don't HAVE to party up with new players, I'm not forcing them. Just..be nice to them and it might pay off in the long run.
I don't even bother trying to get groups any more. To me the game is a single player game now. Log in do some dailies, call it a day.
The standard BS answers:
Find a guild - Been there done that. Watched a half a dozen die and not once have I've done a full guild run in this game. Not sure where this mythical, magical guild where everybody is an awesome player and I can get a group anytime I want is but I've never found it in any game.
L2P - I can play just fine thank you and completed just about everything in the game legit and have my share of world/server firsts from back in the day (whoop de do). No matter how good I get I still need a few other players. The problem is now is that it's hard to get a group at all let alone one with good, highly geared players. So great we got "hard" content that nobody plays.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I can't even find a full group for NC lol. Queue system sucks. Anyway, I'm in t1 epic gear, bought it off ah, and have lost a lot of interest in this game. Been trying other games. I log in still and do pvp dailies and the fey dailies, thats it. Oh, and manage professions. At lower levels I would play the game like 24 hrs straight lol I loved it so much. I'm rooting for this game, and hope to be back if I do leave.
Well there you go. You get back what you put into this game. You only log in for pvp and feywild dailies and you are expecting to be decked out in high end gear. Play the game, learn the dungeons, farm the dungeons, meet other players -- this is how you will advance in this game.
I don't even bother trying to get groups any more. To me the game is a single player game now. Log in do some dailies, call it a day.
The standard BS answers:
Find a guild - Been there done that. Watched a half a dozen die and not once have I've done a full guild run in this game. Not sure where this mythical, magical guild where everybody is an awesome player and I can get a group anytime I want is but I've never found it in any game.
L2P - I can play just fine thank you and completed just about everything in the game legit and have my share of world/server firsts from back in the day (whoop de do). No matter how good I get I still need a few other players. The problem is now is that it's hard to get a group at all let alone one with good, highly geared players. So great we got "hard" content that nobody plays.
A guild is like finding a girlfriend / boyfriend... you don't just jump in and commit to one. You go out on dates in the Dungeons and feel them out... If you've added them to your friend's list and never get them to go out on another date, well you don't commit.
So what I'm saying is find people of like minds... not size, but quality, and of the same mindset.
"What really needs to happen Cryptic is that there is NO reward for killing trash. What NEEDS to happen is in T1 trash drops r5-r6 enchants and T2+ Trash can drop R6-R7s. This solves the issue of people not wanted to do trash." - No because people will just farm the trash instead. This will devalue the economy.
"The other BIG factor here is that the boss mechanic IS to spawn tons of adds. Please remove HALF of the boss spawn adds and let the boss himself actually dish out more damage." - Ridiculous. With the right party you don't even have to worry about the adds in most fights. You can simply group them all on the boss and AOE mow them down.
"Please adjust the difficulty of these and if you want an insanely hard PVE dungeon make an insane GS requirement. But DONT make it hard BECAUSE of adds, make it hard BECAUSE of mechanics.... I mean how hard is it to create an ability that is an aoe with decent range with a 5-6 second RED warning area that will one shot players (or close to it)" -Most fights are not hard because of adds, they are hard because you have bad players, players with low gear, and players that stand in red circles.
This game already has a set difficulty, but I can tell you from MMO experience it isn't near as hard as other games I have played. You can learn these fights pretty easily and get to the point they feel like cakewalk. You need to put more time and effort into the game.
First, when you are queuing you don't get "the right party" you get A party. Why do I need "the right party" to beat it? Why can't I just have a party who can still beat it just takes more patient? Second, the fights are hard BECAUSE of adds. If you take the boss spawns away I'd say all bosses are easy. A boss fight should be about the boss not the unlimited spawned adds with massive hp. Third, if the min GS 8300 and you can't beat it with 8300 GS why is that the min?
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
First, when you are queuing you don't get "the right party" you get A party. Why do I need "the right party" to beat it? Why can't I just have a party who can still beat it just takes more patient? Second, the fights are hard BECAUSE of adds. If you take the boss spawns away I'd say all bosses are easy. A boss fight should be about the boss not the unlimited spawned adds with massive hp. Third, if the min GS 8300 and you can't beat it with 8300 GS why is that the min?
Some good questions here. I will answer them all for you.
1. The right party comes from making your own party. I have to be really bored late in the morning hours (3-4 am) to try and do a random pug. During the peak hours of my guild, we can run anything we like. The right party makeup really depends on what you prefer to play with. Our group usually runs with: 1 of each class OR 1/2 GWF, 1/2 CW, 1 TR, 1 DC depending who is online.
2. The adds do not make the boss fight hard. The adds make poor/inexperienced players panic and not know how to handle them. You have to understand that each player has a role during boss fights. Sometimes you will want to group them up and burn them down with the boss (like Pirate or Spider) or sometimes you will want to have 1 group fight them while another person is on the boss (like Spellplague or Karr).
3. The minimum GS being 8300 is the minimum to zone in and start working on it. Just like any other progression game, you get better as you go. The more you do the dungeon, the better your gear gets, the more experienced, and the easier it becomes.
Let me just say that, I have never pug'ed a dungeon since 60. And we have guild groups run all of the T1-T2 DD's and CN/MC. And we pat ourselves on the backs getting to the 3rd boss. And that was before the fix. Now we're proud of ourselves for getting to the 2nd boss. And our common team has a GS of at least 10.5k. Our tank has a 15k GS. And I've passed all of two epic dungeons. The hardcore members of my guild refuse to do Epic Mad Dragon. Straight out refuse. It isn't worth the money bled into it. It's frustrating. When I got to 60, I went out of my way to get my GS up, (and yes, I worked for almost all of it) and now I find myself having to talk myself into doing a DD that isn't Dread Vault. Non-epic.
I would echo everything that letter has said. I am struggling to find reasons to stay in this game right now, and this letter highlights many of the reasons I am ready to throw in my towel.
With the OP and the statement above and guild i was in dissolved for same reasons, been away 3 weeks rme total war 2, comapny of heroes 2, nothing really to come back to at this point, new class(es) and paragons a must.
End game dungeons t2 based on level difficulty would work better as 10 man raids cant say ive pug'd a successful one yet.
While i agree with most of what players have been saying here I would like to see more fights relying less on adds and more on other mechanics. Maybe a boss that shields himself forcing 3 players to flip switches to drop the shield before something happens, or something other than wave after wave of adds. This is D&D after all, it should involve some kind of "on the fly" thinking and not thinking of how to position the adds to be burnt down. If you keep using adds then make them interesting, and require some coordinated effort for example vanilla wow molten core hounds, 4 adds needed to die at the same time, that in itself took effort and coordination.
Exploitation of the game has ruined it, and I refuse to pug any higher end dungeons due to people that want to bug / exploit things, I am in a very good guild that does not do those things, and it does not matter if our progression runs in to CN 2nd boss takes several hours and many many deaths, cause that is what progression is all about. I enjoy being challenged I love being forced to take things slow and steady and dealing with a learning curve for content.
However with that being said, I am getting tired of being told "you dont need a GF, just take 2 CW's" I have been told on many different occasions that guardian fighters have NO place in CN, the group make up should be 2 CW, 1 TR, 1 DC.
I am a tank, I am proud to be a tank, I am here to protect my guild mates / friends from the evils that lurk in the shadows. I am a good player and have been playing MMO's since ultima online days, I spend hours reading and researching my class, and working in game on how to always better my skills, GOOD tanks in this game are some of the hardest working / patient players I have ever met, and people in this community just dont understand that we can not just walk in to a room push one button and hold aggro all day long while we afk, we have to fight for it, always move and doing our best to make sure you dont get punched in the face.
So if you want us to gather adds and run around in circles while your TR tanks the boss, well if that is required than so be it, maybe we need to blow all our cool downs during add phases and hold the boss and adds so you all can do you work, thats fine too, because it is our job.
What is not fine is easily being replaced by a control wizard, feeling constantly "clunky" because we are the slowest moving class in the game, guard meter being destroyed in 1 or 2 hits and then waiting for a long time for it to regenerate any other class can dodge and have stamina back rather quickly, even have feats or powers that return it back quite fast.
with all that being said, I have not been able to complete the final boss in epic spider with out the group (pug group as my guild does not even want to run that place 95% of the time because it isnt worth the headache) either:
a) get so frustrated after the 5th attempt they just log / leave
b) convince everyone that the only way to do it, is to exploit her in which case I leave cause I dont believe in it.
The game is mostly fine, it needs some fine tuning but it is still beta, I would like to hear much better communication from the devs on problems they are aware of and are working on fixing (I hear the GWF and TR community are still having bug issues with their class)
I will continue to play, I do enjoy the game, I just hope that it shows come kind of commitment to getting better, and not about what new item they want you to buy in the zen store this week.
Comments
The less people who can do them the harder it is to find a group.
The harder it is to find a group the longer you sit in town spamming.
The longer you sit in town spamming the more you get bored.
The more you get bored the more you look for a new game.
1)Actually finding a group that will allow you practice. Finding a group just run a dungeon is a chore. Queue times take an hour or more, drastically cutting into game time. Using the LFG chat may get you one or two people willing run with you, but that takes even longer than the queue, because nobody likes running with a ****. When the queue does pop and you admit to being inexperienced, you will find yourself kicked before the electrons you disturbed with your message have even had chance to settle back down. These PUGs also tend to be such speed groups, that you really have no time figure what it is you did right or wrong before you are in the next fight. They also tend to filled with ragequitters that leave as soon as they figure out you aren't an expert, thereby ending that "practice" session.
2)Find friends to practice with. Considering nobody even bothers to talk outside of the festival zone, and the PE zone chat is filled
griefers, this isn't very easy either. New players aren't likely to have found 5 players to be friends with, let alone ones that are all on at the same time.
3)Find a guild. Most guilds won't accept you unless you are highly geared with experience. Of course the whole point of joining the guild is gain that experience so you can become highly geared. Apart from that finding a good guild in an MMO is a minefield unto itself.
4)Find a mentor. Now with all of the players that say the "dungeons are easy" and if "you can't beat it your not good enough" this should be easy, right? All of these L2P posters should be stepping up to show the new players how to play you would think. I haven't seen any of them offering this service though. You can read the guides here in the forum, but it still takes actual practice to get good at it.
In the end, between bad dungeon mechanics, exploiters, and unfriendly players learning is not the easiest thing in the world. The unfriendly players will always be here, but the bugs, mechanics, and exploits can be fixed so that new players can have fun trying to make it through a dungeon even with a number of unsuccessful attempts.
A very well put together post with all points being not only valid but actionable.
Too bad ESO and Wildstar isn't beta yet.
people are looking for bugs just because doing bosses normal way is too hard. Even if u manage to do it somehow, u get crappy item or no item at all, so u think twice before next time- "should i queue this dungeon again?it was so hard last time and i get nothing, if this happen again?"
Deep in ur head u know that going to that dungeon will not be fun,great and entertaining. This will be frustrating and time consuming.
That way u stop to like the game, more and more, then u quit.
The general purpose of every game is to be fun,to let you spend time in pleasant way, to let u chill after work or school, not to make u more frustrated.
Its sad that some developers forgot it and serve players nonstop-hardcore-grind.
Yeah, this is my main gripe with all these things that people tell us to do like: "just play more to get experienced and find a group". Of course, if you then say you have difficulty finding a group, they'll throw their anecdotical evidence/experience at you saying that they didn't find it hard, and therefor you shouldn't either. That's one part bull**** and another part rude.
Meanwhile, people in PE ALWAYS, and I repeat ALWAYS, ask for experienced people when running dungeons like MC and CN. I'm pretty sure if someone were to type in "LFG CN, want to learn the dungeon" or something along those lines, it would either get ignored or griefed/flamed on. Because people want experienced guys, and if all the experienced guys are taken, then anyone who is not experienced is left in the dark. It happened with Fardelver as well. I had to pretend to be experienced when people were inviting me, or I simply would not be able to get into a group (even as a DC!). So yeah, it happened with FD, it's happening with CN and MC right now as well. I even remember people yelling for experienced players for MC on the first day you could get to it! (Which is about 3 days after release?) I mean, sure it was on the preview shard but still..you expect people to already know what the hell to do on day one? Be realistic people.
Anyway, say this trend continues. My guess is eventually all the "experienced" players have their loot, and the unexperienced ones run the dungeon by themselves, failing several times(or just not getting in at all b/c inexperienced and such). Meanwhile, the experienced guys call it quits, and leave. And then no one knows how to play the dungeon anymore. And then people ***** about inexperienced people. The funny thing is, if you play with experienced people a lot, you should be getting the rewards pretty regularly. So why not spend some time teaching others how to play? Not only will it help them out, because they'll get phat lewtz, but it'll also help YOU out, because next time, you'll have a slightly bigger chance of getting a response to your "need exp people for CN", because there's simply MORE people around who know what to do. In short: Help people out when they need it, and you'll improve on both sides. Your part of the improvement will also be that you're learning how to deal with inexperienced people, and guiding them through the dungeon. Of course, there'll have to be a mentality of patience on their side as well, as they need you to run them through the dungeon, so they can't exactly Leeroy it up. But that depends on the person, and if I was trying to help someone through a dungeon, and they would refuse to listen, I would throw them out (and rightly so if I may say so).
Just my 2 cents though.
It's a young game, it's a young community. People will learn to learn, and learn to teach with time.
Then again the "experienced" people got there through trial and error, so that still works, we just need time for people to stop b*tching about BoP, or for new blood who hasn't seen pre-BoP NW to flow in.
Thing is... having destroyed a dungeon and getting epic loot to me is NOT rewarding and thus NOT fun. What is there to do if you go through all the dungeons as cake, get all the loot you want easily? I don't know about you, but I like a challenge... this isn't meant to be a 30 hour single player game. It's meant to be a game that continually challenges you so you come back and feel good when you finally get something accomplished.
I mean.. If you want a quick fix, then an MMO is probably not the right genre for you. If you think they devs can keep creating content at will to keep you happy creaming through dungeons and getting epic loot... I mean REALLY?! That is if anything LESS fun... what would be the point if you got everything you wanted handed to you? You'd play get it, have to wait for the devs to do something more and would probably do something else in the mean time. I mean it just DOESN'T make sense.
I mean even table top, you have to have a group of "friends" to play with. You don't randomly walk up to someone of the street and ask them to play with you. You don't play PnP D&D by yourself or with random people... You play with friends!
Get some! You don't have to form a guild... AND you only need 5 people! Come on how hard can that be!
See now I agree with everything you said here... that's why my guild Wyld Ones and our sister guild Avatars of Discord take people of all skill and levels. We help gear people up, and we practice dungeons all the time with our less geared guildies. We pick up PUGs all the time... and if they listen will gladly friend them.
I don't join groups that run regular dungeons and REQUIRE you to be a certain gear score... elitest ******bags that probably suck anyway. I've had PUGS with lowered GS people that went smoothly, then joined a few of these "required" groups and all they want to do is exploit and can't handle a real fight. So now I avoid them.
That being said AoD recruits anyone including casual players. Wyld Ones ONLY recruits people we have played with (and yes we PUG ALOT) that are going to want to grind for gear etc, and will play just about everyday. Why? Because we believe the guild that plays together, stays together...
So to anyone on Dragon server here is your invitation to come play with us. Do not randomly invite us, send us a tell... (it does not have to be during a delve) and ask us if we have room.... Need to do a T1 so that you can get up to a T2... we will help! We use Teamspeak to communicate and have guest channels. US based hours 6PM to 1AM typically.
For me, it is all about enjoyment, and the dungeons just don't provide that any more...some of them are really too easy, others are too tedious. Then there is the whole reward/effort ratio - if I spend an hour of my life doing a dungeon, that's an hour that is not coming back, so what do I get for it? Sure, I may be lucky and get a BoE drop that can be sold for a decent amount, but most of the time I just get some blues and BoP purples. Sure, I can vendor the blues, but why? I already have over 300 gold - really don't need any more. As for the BoP purples - I really don't need more rough AD. I have hit the 24K limit every day for the last two months, and currently have around 400,000 waiting to be refined - I have no need to add to that pile.
Sure, I may get some (useless) seals, or maybe a enchantment shard, but really ... if I spent that hour playing the AH instead, I would make enough AD to buy several shards.
So, to me, it's not about difficulty - it is about being fun, and giving appropriate reward for the effort - and that's where the problem is (well, MC final boss excluded, but that feels really more like a bug to me).
+10000
The casual and exploit players always think this game is hard.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
They tested the content for difficulty before release... and then they doubled it... LOL ok for serious comments..
What really needs to happen Cryptic is that there is NO reward for killing trash. What NEEDS to happen is in T1 trash drops r5-r6 enchants and T2+ Trash can drop R6-R7s. This solves the issue of people not wanted to do trash.
The other BIG factor here is that the boss mechanic IS to spawn tons of adds. Please remove HALF of the boss spawn adds and let the boss himself actually dish out more damage.
T1s should be dooable with a group of the min gear score. T2 should be doable with a group of min gear score.
Please adjust the difficulty of these and if you want an insanely hard PVE dungeon make an insane GS requirement. But DONT make it hard BECAUSE of adds, make it hard BECAUSE of mechanics.... I mean how hard is it to create an ability that is an aoe with decent range with a 5-6 second RED warning area that will one shot players (or close to it)
hey there is a tough mechanic! avoid the red or you die. THAT is the fun type of thing that requires some teamwork. Not having CWs chain throw things...
Or other machanics like you have to burn the boss to X% in X time or the boss gets a buff... Or hey, give a 4 phase boss where its increasingly harder each phase so the idea is to burn her as much as possible during the lighter phases... I mean SO many options here I just cant see how its only "OOOO I know! Spawn MORE adds!"
- Someone reacted that Midsummer = nice. Well I don't know but spending time chasing pigs.......no further comments. But thats my opinion.
- People who complain about dungeons to hard but forget it is F2P stop whining. If you dont want wipes 2 things can be done:
1. Pay for Zen, exchange for AD > Buy GEAR
2. Spent more time on it to farm AD etc and collect the gear yourself.
- Why GS 9200 on dungeons and dont make the final boss? Guess what Cryptic wants you to pay so you can get the gear actually needed for it!!
- Note: It can be done with 10k gs parties but not with random pugs/ques (or be lucky)
So stop whining and find good people to play with? Oh **** you don't have the gear so other ppl don't want to play with you? Well ..pay something and get the gear so you can join well-geared parties who make every dungeon a piece-of-cake. Or as said before start farming, spend more time on it but don't whine.
Black Lotus
http://nl.twitch.tv/wixardofoz
Having a week and a half just power leveled a CW to 60 non-twink... running 90% of the time with PUGs in dungeons with green and blue gear to get my T1s... I don't see the issue. I had to PVP to get 2 pieces of Gear (as you can no longer transport from another toon) I ran CT and CC to raise my score... before that... with green and blues (which frop liek crazy now btw) My gear score was 7200. I had 0 problems running T1s with PUGs. Fast forward to this week, playing with some new guildies all at least 8K plus... and highest at 12K+ we failed Lair of Mad Dragon 3 times.
Why do you think that is?
1) 3 people were brand new to the dungeon.
2) Party imbalance we had 3CWs, DC, and a 1st timer rogue
Would we fail again in a week or 2 don't count on it...
mind you pugging... I completed it with ease with only one person above/around 10K and the rest between 5K and 8.5K GS... they all had alt toons and were experienced players.
You are right. The only problem is, I don't need Neverwinter to play DnD with friends. I have alot of options (free shards, coop mode of single player games, or just lfg in a PnP forum and meet for "real" DnD with a game master) that give me more variety then endless grind against stupid KI NPCs.
The only reason for me to play a MMORPG is the MMO aspect.
The reward for killing the monsters is, getting to the bosses...
or else the developers could just leave the dungeon empty and place a boss right at the entrance.
"What really needs to happen Cryptic is that there is NO reward for killing trash. What NEEDS to happen is in T1 trash drops r5-r6 enchants and T2+ Trash can drop R6-R7s. This solves the issue of people not wanted to do trash." - No because people will just farm the trash instead. This will devalue the economy.
"The other BIG factor here is that the boss mechanic IS to spawn tons of adds. Please remove HALF of the boss spawn adds and let the boss himself actually dish out more damage." - Ridiculous. With the right party you don't even have to worry about the adds in most fights. You can simply group them all on the boss and AOE mow them down.
"Please adjust the difficulty of these and if you want an insanely hard PVE dungeon make an insane GS requirement. But DONT make it hard BECAUSE of adds, make it hard BECAUSE of mechanics.... I mean how hard is it to create an ability that is an aoe with decent range with a 5-6 second RED warning area that will one shot players (or close to it)" - Most fights are not hard because of adds, they are hard because you have bad players, players with low gear, and players that stand in red circles.
This game already has a set difficulty, but I can tell you from MMO experience it isn't near as hard as other games I have played. You can learn these fights pretty easily and get to the point they feel like cakewalk. You need to put more time and effort into the game.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Yep... I think it's because this game is free, maybe a lot of first time MMOers are jumping in. I've said it more than once.... by FAR the easiest MMO I have ever played. The reason I like it... the combat system, and it's potential based on it.
This is absolute bullcrap. You shouldn't be excluded from content just because you didn't pay for high level gear. If there is a minimum gear score amount for a dungeon, it should be HARD to complete the dungeon at that level, but not impossible. Something people also need to remember is that the actual number means very very little. Sure it means something but people think that if they have a 15k GS GF that they're cool and awesome and super powerful. Yes, they probably have a very specific build (actual DPS iirc) but that's not exactly what a GF is for. Sure you want to do damage, but your main role is to tank. If I'm looking for a tank, I don't want a DPS. If I want DPS, I'll get a GWF or a TR, not a GF turned DPS.
Also, paying for gear because you don't have it? Guess where you get most of the gear you need: In Dungeons. So you shouldn't need to pay. This game is F2P as you said yourself. This means that you should be able to play and complete all the content for this game without having to pay anything. Paying for things might get you stuff faster, but you still won't have the skills to complete dungeons, because the main reason people are being refused is because of lack of experience. Guess how you get it? Run dungeons. Guess what they can't do? Dungeons. See a pattern here?
Now finally, I saw someone say people don't want to join guilds. This is not always true. While some guilds are nice, others can be downright brutal, like having a few rules on activity, which is still understandable, but when it starts being GS related and dungeon completion related, it starts getting worse. Not to mention often times people just do whatever they want. Not everyone searches for the same things in a guild. Add to that the fact that some people are actually not comfortable communicating with others online (which brings up the question of why they're playing an MMO but that's not the point here)
All in all, the experienced players should, imo, pass on their knowledge to the inexperienced if they can. They don't HAVE to party up with new players, I'm not forcing them. Just..be nice to them and it might pay off in the long run.
The standard BS answers:
Find a guild - Been there done that. Watched a half a dozen die and not once have I've done a full guild run in this game. Not sure where this mythical, magical guild where everybody is an awesome player and I can get a group anytime I want is but I've never found it in any game.
L2P - I can play just fine thank you and completed just about everything in the game legit and have my share of world/server firsts from back in the day (whoop de do). No matter how good I get I still need a few other players. The problem is now is that it's hard to get a group at all let alone one with good, highly geared players. So great we got "hard" content that nobody plays.
Well there you go. You get back what you put into this game. You only log in for pvp and feywild dailies and you are expecting to be decked out in high end gear. Play the game, learn the dungeons, farm the dungeons, meet other players -- this is how you will advance in this game.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
A guild is like finding a girlfriend / boyfriend... you don't just jump in and commit to one. You go out on dates in the Dungeons and feel them out... If you've added them to your friend's list and never get them to go out on another date, well you don't commit.
So what I'm saying is find people of like minds... not size, but quality, and of the same mindset.
First, when you are queuing you don't get "the right party" you get A party. Why do I need "the right party" to beat it? Why can't I just have a party who can still beat it just takes more patient? Second, the fights are hard BECAUSE of adds. If you take the boss spawns away I'd say all bosses are easy. A boss fight should be about the boss not the unlimited spawned adds with massive hp. Third, if the min GS 8300 and you can't beat it with 8300 GS why is that the min?
Some good questions here. I will answer them all for you.
1. The right party comes from making your own party. I have to be really bored late in the morning hours (3-4 am) to try and do a random pug. During the peak hours of my guild, we can run anything we like. The right party makeup really depends on what you prefer to play with. Our group usually runs with: 1 of each class OR 1/2 GWF, 1/2 CW, 1 TR, 1 DC depending who is online.
2. The adds do not make the boss fight hard. The adds make poor/inexperienced players panic and not know how to handle them. You have to understand that each player has a role during boss fights. Sometimes you will want to group them up and burn them down with the boss (like Pirate or Spider) or sometimes you will want to have 1 group fight them while another person is on the boss (like Spellplague or Karr).
3. The minimum GS being 8300 is the minimum to zone in and start working on it. Just like any other progression game, you get better as you go. The more you do the dungeon, the better your gear gets, the more experienced, and the easier it becomes.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
With the OP and the statement above and guild i was in dissolved for same reasons, been away 3 weeks rme total war 2, comapny of heroes 2, nothing really to come back to at this point, new class(es) and paragons a must.
End game dungeons t2 based on level difficulty would work better as 10 man raids cant say ive pug'd a successful one yet.
Exploitation of the game has ruined it, and I refuse to pug any higher end dungeons due to people that want to bug / exploit things, I am in a very good guild that does not do those things, and it does not matter if our progression runs in to CN 2nd boss takes several hours and many many deaths, cause that is what progression is all about. I enjoy being challenged I love being forced to take things slow and steady and dealing with a learning curve for content.
However with that being said, I am getting tired of being told "you dont need a GF, just take 2 CW's" I have been told on many different occasions that guardian fighters have NO place in CN, the group make up should be 2 CW, 1 TR, 1 DC.
I am a tank, I am proud to be a tank, I am here to protect my guild mates / friends from the evils that lurk in the shadows. I am a good player and have been playing MMO's since ultima online days, I spend hours reading and researching my class, and working in game on how to always better my skills, GOOD tanks in this game are some of the hardest working / patient players I have ever met, and people in this community just dont understand that we can not just walk in to a room push one button and hold aggro all day long while we afk, we have to fight for it, always move and doing our best to make sure you dont get punched in the face.
So if you want us to gather adds and run around in circles while your TR tanks the boss, well if that is required than so be it, maybe we need to blow all our cool downs during add phases and hold the boss and adds so you all can do you work, thats fine too, because it is our job.
What is not fine is easily being replaced by a control wizard, feeling constantly "clunky" because we are the slowest moving class in the game, guard meter being destroyed in 1 or 2 hits and then waiting for a long time for it to regenerate any other class can dodge and have stamina back rather quickly, even have feats or powers that return it back quite fast.
with all that being said, I have not been able to complete the final boss in epic spider with out the group (pug group as my guild does not even want to run that place 95% of the time because it isnt worth the headache) either:
a) get so frustrated after the 5th attempt they just log / leave
b) convince everyone that the only way to do it, is to exploit her in which case I leave cause I dont believe in it.
The game is mostly fine, it needs some fine tuning but it is still beta, I would like to hear much better communication from the devs on problems they are aware of and are working on fixing (I hear the GWF and TR community are still having bug issues with their class)
I will continue to play, I do enjoy the game, I just hope that it shows come kind of commitment to getting better, and not about what new item they want you to buy in the zen store this week.