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A letter to the developers
rraakan
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 3 Arc User
Cryptic, et al.,
First, I would like to thank you for creating a game in which I truly enjoy the mechanics of the combat system. I wish I could bind more abilities, but I think that would honestly overpower my characters. The balance in the number of abilities you can use and the choices you have to make going into a combat situation make the learning curve just steep enough to make the game challenging. I appreciate that.
Second, I would like to thank you for creating an immersive D&D based environment that actually works. I played Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter Nights, and really didn't like either of them ... and as a D&D fan from way too long ago, I really yearned for a D&D game I could play with my friends and enjoy. This game gave me that opportunity.
Third, I would like to thank you for trying to come up with a solution to the flood of epics on the auction house. I'm not sure I really like your solution, but you put thought to it. That's more than some game developers will do.
Now to the real important part of the letter. You are losing players. Period. It isn't the BoP issue that is really making you lose your player base. It's a contributing factor, but it isn't the cause. You are making the content in dungeons overpowered at the end for the level/"quality" of player that you advertise to. Let's take epic Pirates for example ... the Surgeon fight spawns so many adds that a solid group of 5 individuals geared with high T2/CN gear, who team together on a regular basis, and all in voice comms with one another, struggle through the fight with multiple deaths, running back from the starting campfire just to manage adds. And adds continue to spawn even after the boss is dead, making it frustrating to continue through the dungeon. The second boss is more of the same. The final boss is actually the most manageable of the fights ... which is exactly the opposite of the progression you should expect in a dungeon. Now, I'm not saying the dungeon is impossible, but how will a moderately geared player, with no access to a full T2 set and/or CN gear (much less high end Sharandar gear), in a pick-up group of other casual players manage to get to the end boss to even choose something from the chest?
You are alienating your casual player base.
Then let's talk Castle Never. Who can beat Valindra? Can a team of devs group together and beat the current mechanics as players? Nobody even bothers to fight Valindra any more (that I know of). Even the people with the gear don't do it. First, people who need the gear (and no, I do not have an Ancient set, so I "need" the gear as an improvement over what I have) can't get there. One of the best mixes of players in my guild couldn't come close to killing the second boss, and I have died there horribly the few times I have tried it. Second, the people who already have the gear have no reason to do the fight ... they can't trade the items to guildies or sell them on the AH, so why bother going through the pain?
You are alienating your more capable player base.
Malabog's Castle. Show me a video of the devs beating the dragon/Valindra fight. Please. I want to see that it can be done with 5 people in T2/T2.5 gear with some mix of Ancient sets and some other sets. Show me the math on drop rates so I know I'm not wasting my time. Running dungeons is all we have left. Yeah, dailies are cool, and the boons from Sharandar are nice, but they don't excite a player nearly as much as getting into a dungeon, getting ready for a fight and working over a boss ... even if it took 3 or 4 or 5 tries. But after 5 tries, it starts to get frustrating, and that isn't fun. And if it isn't fun, I won't buy zen any more. I won't buy the rez scrolls or the health stones, because even with all that stuff, we still can't beat your boss. Hell, we need the gear from the boss to even start beating the boss. Tell me how that makes sense ...
You are alienating even your more hardcore player base.
I play almost every night. Sometimes it pisses my wife off that I play so much. I played UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, Warhammer online, EvE online ... hell, I can't even keep track of all the MMO games I've played ... and I was really enjoying this game, probably even more so than the others, but I'm starting to lose interest. I can go with a vast array of groups and beat the first two bosses in MC, but the mechanics of the real end-game bosses (Valindra and Fulminorax) are unbeatable. Why? If the gear from the delve chest is BoP, and the drop rate on good items from the boss is so low, why make the boss unbeatable? I'm to the point now, and I KNOW there are a lot like me, that I'm just not willing to put the effort in if I can't get any reward back out of it.
Free to play is amazing. I'm even willing to spend more in cash on a FtP game through the transaction environment than I am on a subscription game, but only if there is some reward I get from spending my cash. Right now, there isn't any reward.
My suggestions -
Either show us that the bosses can be beaten with characters geared appropriately for that dungeon (Spellplague - people who need T2 helms and don't have 4 piece sets or T2.5 weapons yet ... Castle Never - people who don't have Ancient gear except in a spot or 2 - ring or neck - but no Ancient weapon sets ... Castle Malabog - people who don't have Fomorian Fabled or Ilyanbruen (sp?) sets - or hell, anyone for that matter), OR ratchet back on the stupid meter for difficulty. Difficult and impossible are not the same thing. Show us it can be done, or make it so we can do it.
If you intend to leave the difficulty where it is, get the other 2 classes into the game and add 2 more slots to parties. If you aren't at the point where the 2 new classes are ready for prime-time, get the 2 additional party slots in first.
Don't take out the Bind on Pickup mechanism, but up the drop rate some ... not massively, but remember that when 1 epic item drops, only 1 out of 5 people gets it. Why make us run the dungeon 8 times to get 1 epic item that only 1 out of 5 people can have? Bump it a couple of percentage points and give us some hope to get something. And let us finish the damned dungeon for the epic chest we actually need ... not make us go back and farm dungeons for BoP items we already have better than.
Put useful combat items in the zen store. Low cost, multi-stat combat potions in addition to heal stones and rez scrolls would make a huge difference. Yes, I know I can get those through invoking, but I would like an angel one day ...
I think you guys have a game with amazing potential. I have enjoyed playing greatly, I like collecting pets and lore, and I really like the combat system. I like that new content was so fast to the streets (although the bug issues have been a little frustrating). The graphics are well done, and the storyline is enjoyable, but the end game doesn't offer much for experienced players. A grind in a free to play game doesn't keep your player base for long. Picking flowers and herding pigs will only hold attention for so long. People are already looking for the next game ... I don't want to, but I'm getting there myself.
Rraakan
First, I would like to thank you for creating a game in which I truly enjoy the mechanics of the combat system. I wish I could bind more abilities, but I think that would honestly overpower my characters. The balance in the number of abilities you can use and the choices you have to make going into a combat situation make the learning curve just steep enough to make the game challenging. I appreciate that.
Second, I would like to thank you for creating an immersive D&D based environment that actually works. I played Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter Nights, and really didn't like either of them ... and as a D&D fan from way too long ago, I really yearned for a D&D game I could play with my friends and enjoy. This game gave me that opportunity.
Third, I would like to thank you for trying to come up with a solution to the flood of epics on the auction house. I'm not sure I really like your solution, but you put thought to it. That's more than some game developers will do.
Now to the real important part of the letter. You are losing players. Period. It isn't the BoP issue that is really making you lose your player base. It's a contributing factor, but it isn't the cause. You are making the content in dungeons overpowered at the end for the level/"quality" of player that you advertise to. Let's take epic Pirates for example ... the Surgeon fight spawns so many adds that a solid group of 5 individuals geared with high T2/CN gear, who team together on a regular basis, and all in voice comms with one another, struggle through the fight with multiple deaths, running back from the starting campfire just to manage adds. And adds continue to spawn even after the boss is dead, making it frustrating to continue through the dungeon. The second boss is more of the same. The final boss is actually the most manageable of the fights ... which is exactly the opposite of the progression you should expect in a dungeon. Now, I'm not saying the dungeon is impossible, but how will a moderately geared player, with no access to a full T2 set and/or CN gear (much less high end Sharandar gear), in a pick-up group of other casual players manage to get to the end boss to even choose something from the chest?
You are alienating your casual player base.
Then let's talk Castle Never. Who can beat Valindra? Can a team of devs group together and beat the current mechanics as players? Nobody even bothers to fight Valindra any more (that I know of). Even the people with the gear don't do it. First, people who need the gear (and no, I do not have an Ancient set, so I "need" the gear as an improvement over what I have) can't get there. One of the best mixes of players in my guild couldn't come close to killing the second boss, and I have died there horribly the few times I have tried it. Second, the people who already have the gear have no reason to do the fight ... they can't trade the items to guildies or sell them on the AH, so why bother going through the pain?
You are alienating your more capable player base.
Malabog's Castle. Show me a video of the devs beating the dragon/Valindra fight. Please. I want to see that it can be done with 5 people in T2/T2.5 gear with some mix of Ancient sets and some other sets. Show me the math on drop rates so I know I'm not wasting my time. Running dungeons is all we have left. Yeah, dailies are cool, and the boons from Sharandar are nice, but they don't excite a player nearly as much as getting into a dungeon, getting ready for a fight and working over a boss ... even if it took 3 or 4 or 5 tries. But after 5 tries, it starts to get frustrating, and that isn't fun. And if it isn't fun, I won't buy zen any more. I won't buy the rez scrolls or the health stones, because even with all that stuff, we still can't beat your boss. Hell, we need the gear from the boss to even start beating the boss. Tell me how that makes sense ...
You are alienating even your more hardcore player base.
I play almost every night. Sometimes it pisses my wife off that I play so much. I played UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, Warhammer online, EvE online ... hell, I can't even keep track of all the MMO games I've played ... and I was really enjoying this game, probably even more so than the others, but I'm starting to lose interest. I can go with a vast array of groups and beat the first two bosses in MC, but the mechanics of the real end-game bosses (Valindra and Fulminorax) are unbeatable. Why? If the gear from the delve chest is BoP, and the drop rate on good items from the boss is so low, why make the boss unbeatable? I'm to the point now, and I KNOW there are a lot like me, that I'm just not willing to put the effort in if I can't get any reward back out of it.
Free to play is amazing. I'm even willing to spend more in cash on a FtP game through the transaction environment than I am on a subscription game, but only if there is some reward I get from spending my cash. Right now, there isn't any reward.
My suggestions -
Either show us that the bosses can be beaten with characters geared appropriately for that dungeon (Spellplague - people who need T2 helms and don't have 4 piece sets or T2.5 weapons yet ... Castle Never - people who don't have Ancient gear except in a spot or 2 - ring or neck - but no Ancient weapon sets ... Castle Malabog - people who don't have Fomorian Fabled or Ilyanbruen (sp?) sets - or hell, anyone for that matter), OR ratchet back on the stupid meter for difficulty. Difficult and impossible are not the same thing. Show us it can be done, or make it so we can do it.
If you intend to leave the difficulty where it is, get the other 2 classes into the game and add 2 more slots to parties. If you aren't at the point where the 2 new classes are ready for prime-time, get the 2 additional party slots in first.
Don't take out the Bind on Pickup mechanism, but up the drop rate some ... not massively, but remember that when 1 epic item drops, only 1 out of 5 people gets it. Why make us run the dungeon 8 times to get 1 epic item that only 1 out of 5 people can have? Bump it a couple of percentage points and give us some hope to get something. And let us finish the damned dungeon for the epic chest we actually need ... not make us go back and farm dungeons for BoP items we already have better than.
Put useful combat items in the zen store. Low cost, multi-stat combat potions in addition to heal stones and rez scrolls would make a huge difference. Yes, I know I can get those through invoking, but I would like an angel one day ...
I think you guys have a game with amazing potential. I have enjoyed playing greatly, I like collecting pets and lore, and I really like the combat system. I like that new content was so fast to the streets (although the bug issues have been a little frustrating). The graphics are well done, and the storyline is enjoyable, but the end game doesn't offer much for experienced players. A grind in a free to play game doesn't keep your player base for long. Picking flowers and herding pigs will only hold attention for so long. People are already looking for the next game ... I don't want to, but I'm getting there myself.
Rraakan
Post edited by rraakan on
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But blue drops from epic (T2 and T2.5) dungeons are an insult to those who just put in the lengthy time to fight their way through all the trash and get lucky enough to beat them. Personally speaking, several end boss fights are simply impossible for me (after 50 attempts I eventually give up and move on) even with 13k+ GS and 30+ years of video gaming experience, or for heavily geared and experienced guild groups in voicechat with each other, much less for your more "typical" PUG/casual/undergeared player. Meanwhile, your most experienced and geared players now have zero reason to run these end-game dungeons, thanks to BOP and trash drops. Player numbers are falling, and once players finish the Sharandar campaign quest line and the midsummer festival concludes next week this game will be a virtual ghost town. LFG posts have dwindled, and PUG queues now stretch on until they timeout. Gauntlygrym is only being done for the AD dailies.
I've spent more $$ on this game than a two year subscription to WOW would have cost me, but like Rraakan, I've started looking for something else to play, even though I really don't want to. There is simply nothing left for me to do in Neverwinter under the current arrangement, and that saddens me. I hear others saying the same thing.
Amen. I could not agree more. I too am a veteran of many MMOs; since there have been MMOs. The game has lost the appeal it had at launch and you are losing players.
While some people posting to user boards seem to revel in a game's failure, I really don't want that to happen. Please tune your game before you lose too much of the player base.
I'm the leader of a guild with 180 players of which about 50 are very active on a daily basis (The rest more so on weekends) Frankly, it is the best group we have ever put together in a game and I don't want to see all of us lose interest.
I have spent more money on this game in the last 2 months than any MMO I have played. AoC, WarHammer, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, WoW, LOTRO....... I will not be spending any more money on zen and wasting my time playing this game if something is not changed about the drops and difficulty of end game dungeons.
I spent the entire day on Thursday of this week running the final boss in MC. We were in a group of experienced fully geared players all in T2 sets with fully enchanted everything rank6 or better. We could not get past the second phase of the fight for the life of us and final gave up after hours of trying. This is not fun and we play the game to have fun. So tell me why should we keep playing the game?
(I should say I find it annoying as Im constantly changing camera angles to find my boss target!)
The loot drops in the dungeons appear to be so random and of poor quality, some times I wonder why I just spent 45 minutes doing in this particular dungeon and I am only halfway through the game (level 44), I cannot imagine how bad the level 60 players must feel...
I also feel the economy is also driving away players as well, I am not a big MMO player of any BIG games, so I have no angst about games in general, just feel that the direction the developers are taking with this game seems to be the wrong one...
Also levelling is far too easy and needs to be rectified, the levelling curve needs to be adjusted down... I have only been here a week and Im already level 44 and I am not even trying...
I urge the developers to take these constructive points from all players seriously as its spoiling a game with a lot of potential...
I should honestly say that I am a new player and even I am starting to worry if getting to level 60 is even worth my time, it seems the more I read, the more players are being punished at the higher end of the gear spectrum. I dont mind earning my gear and working for it, but so far its seems to be sheer blind luck if you get anything at all in this game and that bothers me greatly...
I doubt this'll make a difference, but one can always hope. I had a friend who, last night, went into Epic Karrundax. He and his party didn't even have a wizard and it practically required them to cheese the first couple of bosses to get through it. I completed Helm's Hold entirely while he did this.
This kind of highlights why there's a lot of exploiting going on in these dungeons. Part of it is out of necessity due to how strong and how numerous the ads are.
*Sigh* But all that'll happen here is just a bunch of sarcastic people will comment and nothing will get done. Like usual.
New gen... Valindra--cn? I think ur in the wrong dungon. Full ancient speaking here... Goodjob patching exploits now it actualy take some brain to do cn. Also nothing in cn is bop beside DD ( who run for dd in cn anyway) so stop talking about cn plZ ur making urself look ****. Cant disagree for the rest
I might be wrong but from what I read in the OP, he hasn't actually gotten to Valindra, and thus does not realize who the final boss is. Might be wrong but that's what it seemed like. You need to calm down though. This guy is making a fair and level-headed post about a few things that are legitimately wrong with this game, and you go out and scream stuff like a chicken without a head. Tells a huge difference.
I agree with you about the final boss on MC and CN, not because they are hard, but because they have bugs in them, and every time they try to make changes to them, they introduce new bugs.
I remember to see Andy Velasquez (Lead Producer at Cryptic Studios) saying that they were making content and bosses that even the devs cant defeat them because players will be much better players than they are lol. Seems he wasnt joking about that lol
Im a full ancient/T2 with high rank ench and all thar <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>....for me and for my group its pretty easy to make all T2 CN and MC. Nowdays theres a bug with breath dragons attacks which is a problem when making MC and CN... CN is still doable but not MC. And MC last boss dont rly gives more loot than the 2nd boss. (i think is or was the same loot table which is stupid In my opinion)
I agree with u about the final boss of CN with the 2 CW throwing all mobs to crypts roof to avoid them to respawn.... for me thats not a good fight mechanics (and i believe thats the only way to do the dracolich), although i must agree the MC last boss is a rly cool fight with actually a good mechanic, no more 10000 adds coming non stop... And guess what, the fight is not easy at all
I didnt try to gear up with a new toon but i will rly soon, by then i will give my own opinion how hard dungeons are with low GS but to my group, the gear we already have and the experience so far the dungeons are not that hard like everyone claim to be.... But that can be a diferent story when i level my new toon with a lower Gear score, ill wait and see
Every T2 dungeon in the game is way to long for the little if any reward you receive upon completion. That is if the dungeon is even possible to finish with out using some exploit that will get you band from the game.
You Devs really need to make some major changes fast or this game is going to loose a lot more players. I would really hate to see this stuff not get fixed because I really like a lot about the game but end game dungeons and loot drops are killing it for me and many others
spellplaque, you can take any group in there and succeed, again you have to be smart about your powers and group makeup.
MC- well if i knew how to video tape the game you would see us complete that as well (again no ancient weapons) but we spent many many days doing the same dungeons over and over til we had them on farm status. Took a lot of time and effort on our part but we are now seeing the rewards because we didnt have a problem on MC after the first pull.. saw what was going on and next pull defeated it.
in my opinion people arent willing to figure out the fights, they just want to be able to go in with any pug group and get the loot.. that works when they were able to glitch the boss fights and not actually fight it, but that isnt how the fights are intended.
there is a definate learning curve involved with the dungeons, spend the time learning them.. join a good guild that does the content legitly, and you will become a better player..
I was surprised when peeps quit out of dungeons or just avoid side content, I wasnt expecting that....but your right...
Obviously something needs doing but:
1. Pirates is easily done with 9k GS group. It is one of the more easier epic dungeons in my opinion. Maybe you need to think about other things than just "tank & spank". For the first boss, you could draw him to the cave around the corner where this is a "ledge" that you can "push" the adds off ALL day long leaving you to kill the Surgeon like it was nothing.
2. You never get to fight Valindra in Castle Never, not that I am aware off and I've done it many times. However doing it without putting the adds on the ledge so you in affect don't kill them and they don't respawn is another matter.
3. Malabog Castle is OK and the last fight requires some co-ordination but doable with Valindra not bugged. What is not OK is the blue items we get. Not going to bother doing this instance.
Firstly, I say fix the que system so people aren't held to ransom by someone who rage quits, dc etc. etc. Let us get people in!!!!!
Bind on Pick-up is OK, however I would say that some tweaks need to be done. For example make the last boss ALWAYS drop the intended T2 item that is BOE that the "high-end" people can farm to "sell" to the newer players to help them out.
While yes that works, remember that Pirates requires 8.3k to get in, so players with the minimum requirements might have it a bit harder than 9k+ players. It's also easy to inflate one's GS with enchants (had a GF in karrundax that still had greens yet had 10k GS because of enchants, that should be fixed).
One thing I would like to mention is that some dungeons have bugged fights (like the respawning monsters after you beat Plague Reaver, or the bugged trolls in the Ice Dungeon).
Other things, like say, the Son of Magera, that has flame spikers and archers that spawn on a timer. It takes players a bit to kill the monsters, and they have to kill them quickly enough before more spikers spawn, leaving them very little time to attack the boss unless they either 1. have enough dps to burn adds and hit the boss a little. 2. have someone kite all the adds and everyone kills the boss. 3. ranged party members just sit on a rock and snipe the boss while adds stand around like idiots wondering why they can't do anything (I know flame spikers can jump up to that ledge, but there's a way around that too).
I do have some suggestions:
1. make adds spawn when a boss reaches a percentage of health instead of a timer, that way the group can manage the monsters easier and plan around this factor, instead of having to deal with a big pile of critters.
2. make the bosses the actual hard part of the encounter (Chartilifax, kinda sad when the Dragon isn't the scary part of the fight)
the most difficult i would say is doing CN without bugging out the adds.
The reason why people ask for "exped" members for groups is because they dont want someone who just wants to go into a dungeon to spam buttons without paying attention to whats going on, which im all for.
However the bugs and exploits people insist on using (since they are so readily available) isn't healthy for the game and when they ask for "exped members" they really mean "knows the bugs". This however is not the playerbase's fault, cryptic know about they bugs, or atleast should do since the majority of the community seem to know them. Its up to them to fix them. When they happen i do not know, there are some bugs that are still in the game since before launch.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
No.
MMOs lose players because players lose interest over time. It's a fact that affects every mmo. They have to combat it by adding new and interesting things and keeping new players coming in.
Turning this game into yet another boring casual mmo isn't going to fix anything. It would just ruin what little fun the game has to offer.
Too hard for you? Play another mmo, tons of ultra easy hold your hand ones out there. DDO for example if you want another DnD flavored one. It's ridiculously easy and offers tons of difficulty settings (all of which are easy except the highest).
The challenge at the endgame is the one good thing this game has going for it, and something the developers said they would try very hard to stick to there guns on when faced with whine posts like this. I really hope they have the resolve to hold out.
And yes, duh of course CN/Every T2 was beaten without already having the gear. I mean come on, exactly how do you think we got it in the first place. I certainly beat my first CN with T1 gear - everyone in the group had T1 gear in fact, and it was a pug. Was it easy? no, it was hard as hell and took us a ton of attempt, but we preserved and it felt that much more rewarding because of it.
I mean your position on it being so impossible is made pretty weak by the fact you asked "Who can beat valindra?" - in a dungeon where she can't be fought. Sounds like you never even faced the end boss.
One thing they can do to alleviate some of these concerns is add a lower difficulty mode with lower rewards. Cater to a wider audience. But they should NEVER destroy what the game has to offer the higher skilled players. Options are good, destroying what we have now isn't.
CN would be especially easy to do that since the achievement lists shows an achievement for beating the normal version - so they at some point obviously started work on that.. Only a matter of finishing a non-epic version to let players play it without as much challenge.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ojPnU5TQBc
:>
I feel like if i changed to a protector tank it might help but without the preview shard its just to much of a pain to try it out. Also protector doesnt gi e a huge increase to my survivability and or utility in its current state.
Rising Star, fun friendly, community focused guild on mindflayer. We strive to help each other and enjoy the game together. Talk to me for info, or feel free to check and join our community at risingstarneverwinter.enjin.com
And here is why. You see, while every dungeon seems to use the same tactics, spawning enormous amounts of adds, certain dungeons' individual kinds of adds function differently and are because of that easier or harder to beat. Someone up there posted that Lair of the Pirate king is one of the easier epic dungeons. And they would be right. The reasons for that are simple:
1. None of the adds there have CC immunity.
2. The ones that use attacks that rush at you and knock you back give you a window of time to dodge them, they all telegraph their attacks fairly obviously and with enough Crowd Control it's easy to keep them under wraps (people shouldn't ignore Oppresive Force)
Now, compare those adds with the ones in Temple of the Spider.
1. The Blademasters there rush at you without a charge-up period of telegraph, dealing a hefty bit of damage and rooting you in place. If 2-3 of those jump at you at the same time, things get hairy.
2. Assassins and Blademasters have a spinning AoE attack that doesn't show a red telegraph that it's happening and characters can easily just walk into it because they don't see it happening with everything else going on around them, the chaos of battle.
3. Especially in the last boss' arena, in my experience what usually kills off most parties are the sheer number of Blademasters jumping in, rooting people in place for the boss to smack. (don't quote me on that, it's usually way too chaotic to tell) Add to that 2k+ damage a hit from Auto Attacks (as I like to call them) that cannot be avoided simply by walking away from the attacker.
But here's the funny part. I've actually passed most dungeons legitimately (except for Epic Dread Vault). I've done Temple of the Spider, Pirate King's Lair, Frozen Heart, etc. all with queue-assigned parties. How? Honestly, I couldn't tell you. Sometimes it just ~works~. And more often than not, I can't seem to replicate that same flawless result.
I don't know if I like that random element. Lets just say that it's all possible and leave it at that. We just have to work (as players, getting better at the game) to make the results from dungeons less "It just happened that way" and more "It happened this way because of XYZ".
We can only do this as a community, not worrying about "losing players" as some kind of excuse to justify one man's desire to see the game's content changed in specific ways, but rather, as a collective, trying to make the game ~fun~. Those changes might involve "nerfs" to this or that and I'd be among the first to cheer when adds stop coming in hordes every minute, just springing up from the woodwork before the last wave was even half-way dead.
It just takes some patience, and not fighting with the developer or telling them what they've made is ****.
have you tried them after the patch, i want to see a video of MC and CN after the partch with a GS average of 11k
i have run every dungeon in the game and i have finished every instance in pugs with friends and in guild, however afte rthe last patch not sure if my skills decreased a lot but cannot finish CN and MC. btw i am a GF with 16.5K GS and i am not using ancient set for weapons(i have them but not use them) probably i could reach 17k GS with that, my point is that is pretty difficult to finish them off currently, MC last figth we reach the 3rd part of the figth and the dang dragon kill some due to bugged red lines