Not true. You have to run the same dungeon at most 15-20 times to get the T2 item you want. Some people might need more run but it's just bad luck. You can get a BiS char within 1 month if you play for 1h30 every evening. That's definitely not much.
Oh by the way, you don't need anything. It's just a game. You want some specific drops, or ADs, but in no way you "need" or are "forced" (by who?) to cheat. That's a choice, and i see many people with a full T2 set cheating just to milk dungeons, like i said earlier. I remember seeing a lot of threads about cryptic being greedy, but i guess the most greedy people here are just players.
By that logic, why do you even care if it's "just a game" and nothing in this game is going to impact anyone. I mean I think you are just asking for attention now like any attention *****.
Also, people will always find the most efficient way to run things. ALWAYS there is no exception to that rule. As long as people have a competitive mindset which we do in nature nothing will ever change on people finding quick ways to do things. Speed running dungeons is one of the things.
Why play hard? Play smart!
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah, but are you literally going to have fun exploring the same dungeon for 10000 times?
It's the same dungeon and nothing in that dungeon is new after the first couple runs. What is exciting about it after a week of running the dungeons?
The fun of the game for me is the entire aspect... the game mechanics... fighting through the trash... killing the boss. It is all part of the experience. Sometimes I wonder why people even play this game... they want to cheat to farm the best gear... yet they do nothing when they have the best gear... a lot of that gear helps during trash, during the boss fights, etc... that they never experience.
The fun of the game for me is the entire aspect... the game mechanics... fighting through the trash... killing the boss. It is all part of the experience. Sometimes I wonder why people even play this game... they want to cheat to farm the best gear... yet they do nothing when they have the best gear... a lot of that gear helps during trash, during the boss fights, etc... that they never experience.
No, the difference is progression speed where some people progress way quicker than other people because either
1. More time
2. Play Smarter than Harder
3. That experience you are describing is like a one week since game released experience for Veteran MMO players.
What you described is something for someone who has never played an MMO as got a "wow" factor out of this.
I mean this game isn't even optimally designed and still has so many and I repeat SO MANY bugs.
Also, why would anyone even care how others feel about what is fun for them?
If the way you described is fun for you why discriminate other people in the first place on how they have fun?
****, some people spend all their days in Foundry's.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No, the difference is progression speed where some people progress way quicker than other people because either
1. More time
2. Play Smarter than Harder
3. That experience you are describing is like a one week since game released experience for Veteran MMO players.
What you described is something for someone who has never played an MMO as got a "wow" factor out of this.
I mean this game isn't even optimally designed and still has so many and I repeat SO MANY bugs.
Also, why would anyone even care how others feel about what is fun for them?
If the way you described is fun for you why discriminate other people in the first place on how they have fun?
****, some people spend all their days in Foundry's.
Have you even read anything that I have posted? I have played plenty of MMOs and have played this game since Beta. I have not needed to do any cheating with my friends... the only time I have encountered it is during pug runs when I offer to heal for random players.
Cheating ruins the fun in this game. Clearing mobs effectively is one thing.... sneaking to a boss to avoid trash is another. Kiting a boss to a certain part of the room is one thing... standing on top of a statue where the boss can't reach you is another.
Like I said... weak players that like to cheat should be put on their own shard... there they can queue up, zone in... all bosses will be at the beginning and fall over dead. They can drop the entire tier set for everybody that is there. That is what they are looking for at the end of the day.
Have you even read anything that I have posted? I have played plenty of MMOs and have played this game since Beta. I have not needed to do any cheating with my friends... the only time I have encountered it is during pug runs when I offer to heal for random players.
Cheating ruins the fun in this game. Clearing mobs effectively is one thing.... sneaking to a boss to avoid trash is another. Kiting a boss to a certain part of the room is one thing... standing on top of a statue where the boss can't reach you is another.
Like I said... weak players that like to cheat should be put on their own shard... there they can queue up, zone in... all bosses will be at the beginning and fall over dead. They can drop the entire tier set for everybody that is there. That is what they are looking for at the end of the day.
Knocking off mobs with a no limit CW shield and skipping mobs is about the same thing except for the knock off taking 10 seconds longer.
Having people stand on terrain where mobs or AI doesn't get to the player is a design flaw. The fact that you can even walk on the outside terrain is questionable and was probably intended at first without thinking about the consequences.
If that was literally cheating then the devs would of put up more "invisible walls" or if they cared enough would section off terrains at boss fights. If anything it's the lack of testing where players can go on terrains.
Also, having mass spawns at bosses with no real play but seeing everything red on the ground isn't so much fun or anything. Having mobs hit you for 10k+ and have no way of actually doing counter-play on them is pretty stupid. Again, just my take on how the AI and design is in this game about mass spawning and mobs doing a **** ton of damage for no reason.
The fun of the game for me is the entire aspect... the game mechanics... fighting through the trash... killing the boss. It is all part of the experience. Sometimes I wonder why people even play this game... they want to cheat to farm the best gear... yet they do nothing when they have the best gear... a lot of that gear helps during trash, during the boss fights, etc... that they never experience.
1) Unfortunately the majority of players do not share the same likes/dislikes as you do.
For example, most people dislike having to constantly kill Ice Trolls that bug out & constantly spawn. <---THIS IS NOT FUN.
2) A lot of people don't "want to cheat." Rather they just want to farm the best gear. It's part of the fun of an MMORPG. I don't play MMOs to be a mindless button presser. (Like killing trash mobs...even if the buttons make things flashy. Derp.) For me, the fun in MMOs is the gameplay, theory crafting, & gear.
As an FPS gamer, the game mechanics can be extremely simple (point and click, move around) & I won't mind as long as the gameplay is good.
Half the time they can't kill the boss... they have to have an exploit like having the boss suicide or standing on top of a statue where the boss can't get to you, etc. Mindless players will have similar issues on trash... over pulling, running way ahead, lots of careless deaths. There are a lot of bad players in this game and cheating is a way for them to feel equal with the rest of the community.
Agreed there are a lot of bad players...in every game.
Heck, even entire countries are notorious for their bad players. (BRs)
Luckily you can simply kick them to the curb in most games, including Neverwinter.
& a game shouldn't cater to terribads like Neverwinter is currently doing. *Cough Balance Cough PvP Cough*
Yes, games should cater towards casuals. But not terribads. There's an important distinction here.
Have you even read anything that I have posted? I have played plenty of MMOs and have played this game since Beta. I have not needed to do any cheating with my friends... the only time I have encountered it is during pug runs when I offer to heal for random players.
Cheating ruins the fun in this game. Clearing mobs effectively is one thing.... sneaking to a boss to avoid trash is another. Kiting a boss to a certain part of the room is one thing... standing on top of a statue where the boss can't reach you is another.
Like I said... weak players that like to cheat should be put on their own shard... there they can queue up, zone in... all bosses will be at the beginning and fall over dead. They can drop the entire tier set for everybody that is there. That is what they are looking for at the end of the day.
1) TR stealthing to bypass is intentional game mechanics. (It's how Cryptic designed their stealth class) So is warping everyone together. (To keep parties together) Mixing the two is not & that's where we get exploits.
2) Great idea & good luck with that. /sarcasm. If you manage to implement a way to somehow segregate cheaters, you'll be an extremely rich person.
By that logic, why do you even care if it's "just a game" and nothing in this game is going to impact anyone. I mean I think you are just asking for attention now like any attention *****.
Also, people will always find the most efficient way to run things. ALWAYS there is no exception to that rule. As long as people have a competitive mindset which we do in nature nothing will ever change on people finding quick ways to do things. Speed running dungeons is one of the things.
Why play hard? Play smart!
Oh but i am having fun with the current game mechanics. I don't mind if it takes longer to get gear, i have what i want - 3 chars with a full T2 set, several greater enchants, and so on. My main char is around 11k gs, i don't need more, i'm doing fine in pvp and pve. What's fun is indeed killing stuff, going to the boss, then using the strat to kill it. I truely don't mind of other people have trouble getting their gear. Not my business, you see. All i want is enjoying the great combat mechanics.
Competition is never a good excuse to cheat. That's why people are tested for drugs in sport competitions. Cheating isn't allowed, because it ruins the competition itself. If you want to farm stuff, you better become a good player, kill stuff quickly and efficiently, in an ideal neverwinter game. I just hope the devs spend some time to redesign the dungeon system, to make mob killing/pushing mandatory to unlock the boss or something like that. Just to make it a real competition, not a mindless and stupid race to chests.
Most of the people who don't want to see exploits fixed always find silly reasons to justify their cheating ways, but my guess is that they aren't good at all, and would have to learn to play the game. It's definitely not about time. People complain about the time required to kill mobs before the boss, but it takes time because they suck hard and never learnt to play because they use exploits all the time. Not because dungeon design is terrible.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
I think that the thing that underlies these debates is that most people who play MMOs do not play them for the gameplay.
I'll say that again, using slightly different words. The attraction for most people in an MMO is extrinsic to the gameplay, independent of the gameplay. The motives vary greatly. Some people just like virtual worlds. Other people like exploration. Others like RP. Some people like to dominate other people in PvP. Others like to deck out their characters in BiS as quickly as possible. These are the main motives -- not that people actually *enjoy* the gameplay to a great degree in and of itself. (The one exception to this is the attraction that some seem to have to the YouTube kabuki-dance style of boss "mechanics" from WoW that some people seem to enjoy, at least for a while, but there again the main motive isn't the "fun" of the mechanics themselves, but being able to get the gear that comes from them by being a good dancer, so to speak, as compared with other players, and getting both tangible and visual rewards for that.)
This is to be compared with other genres of games that people play predominantly for the game play, because they enjoy it (especially single player games). Multiplayer games, by contrast, are often serving motives relating to competitiveness and comparative success relative to other players much more than the actual gameplay being enjoyable to the player. For this type of MMO player, it's often about the epeen and fashion show element of the game ("If you've got it, flaunt it!"), as a means of expressing relative success in a global competition with other players.
So in that context the kind of MMO player who is motivated by that aspect, the gameplay is always principally a means to an end. It isn't the main point of the game -- it's a means to expressing the point, which is displaying relative success as compared with the rest of the playerbase -- i.e., socially expressed competitive dominance. Some "means to an end" gameplay are more enjoyable, at least for a while, than others, but for this type of player they are never the point or the motive. And so because they are a means to an end, they will be shortened, cut-down, exploited and so on, because the gameplay isn't itself the point of the game for these players -- it's just a means to an end.
Kids these days... always trying to justify cheating... this almost makes me sad.
It is up to the game designer to determine what is cheating and also doing their job to prevent cheating. If "cheating" continues without the development doing anything to address or prevent it, then by that very thing, it is NOT cheating.
Some players want to think that pushing monsters off edges to their deaths is cheating. This same method has been used by Devs in the Dev demo videos. So if a dev uses this same method, why would players consider it cheating?
If areas are "skippable" and the devs do not "fix" the parts that can be skipped then by default they are not cheats until they are fixed. Expecting a player to change their behavior is not the solution. The solution is that the devs "patch the holes" where the cheats are. Until they are patched it is NOT a cheat.
I hear all the reasoning and justifications for cheating but i still don't get it. If you don't like to do a certain thing, why do it? Obviously "speed runners" (I am talking about cheaters not about people that play fast and efficient and everybody knows the difference so stop mixing the two) do not like the dungeons and in some or most cases they don't even like the boss fights because if there is a way to exploit they will.
I mean it's like running a marathon and taking the bus for the first 40 kilometers, just so you get your medal for participating. If you don't like to run marathon, if it is too hard and takes too long, stay at home.
And if you don't like to run a dungeon, stop. There are certain dungeons, that i don't want to see anymore, so i take a break and do something else. And if it is just about the gear, you don't need it. You don't put it to use anyway. You can cheat just as well with green gear. So again, I don't get it.
And if you insist on cheating, because for whatever twisted reason you came up with, do it in the privacy of your guild or with friends, no one stops you. The public space should be the place where the content is played without cheating, not the other way around.
But I know, as long as cheating is possible, people will cheat. It's the devs that have to step up and do something.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
If you don't like to do a certain thing, why do it?
Because that thing is a means to an end which you do want. That's the motive. It isn't how I play myself (I don't like dungeons much so I don't do them much), but I do understand that people want the "end" reward, and see the gameplay as a means to that end.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
It is up to the game designer to determine what is cheating and also doing their job to prevent cheating. If "cheating" continues without the development doing anything to address or prevent it, then by that very thing, it is NOT cheating.
Some players want to think that pushing monsters off edges to their deaths is cheating. This same method has been used by Devs in the Dev demo videos. So if a dev uses this same method, why would players consider it cheating?
If areas are "skippable" and the devs do not "fix" the parts that can be skipped then by default they are not cheats until they are fixed. Expecting a player to change their behavior is not the solution. The solution is that the devs "patch the holes" where the cheats are. Until they are patched it is NOT a cheat.
Don't blame the players for lazy development.
So it is your assertion that anything that is not directly prohibited by the game is *not* a cheat? Do you subscribe to the notion that "it's only illegal if you get caught"?
It is not hard to realize that certain behaviors are wrong - such as leaping to your death in order to respawn further ahead in the dungeon, or taking part in suicide runs.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh but i am having fun with the current game mechanics. I don't mind if it takes longer to get gear, i have what i want - 3 chars with a full T2 set, several greater enchants, and so on. My main char is around 11k gs, i don't need more, i'm doing fine in pvp and pve. What's fun is indeed killing stuff, going to the boss, then using the strat to kill it. I truely don't mind of other people have trouble getting their gear. Not my business, you see. All i want is enjoying the great combat mechanics.
Competition is never a good excuse to cheat. That's why people are tested for drugs in sport competitions. Cheating isn't allowed, because it ruins the competition itself. If you want to farm stuff, you better become a good player, kill stuff quickly and efficiently, in an ideal neverwinter game. I just hope the devs spend some time to redesign the dungeon system, to make mob killing/pushing mandatory to unlock the boss or something like that. Just to make it a real competition, not a mindless and stupid race to chests.
Most of the people who don't want to see exploits fixed always find silly reasons to justify their cheating ways, but my guess is that they aren't good at all, and would have to learn to play the game. It's definitely not about time. People complain about the time required to kill mobs before the boss, but it takes time because they suck hard and never learnt to play because they use exploits all the time. Not because dungeon design is terrible.
"Most of the people who don't want to see exploits fixed always find silly reasons to justify their cheating ways, but my guess is that they aren't good at all" BINGO
This is probably the best post I've read on this forum. You summed it up so well. Bravo.
It is up to the game designer to determine what is cheating and also doing their job to prevent cheating. If "cheating" continues without the development doing anything to address or prevent it, then by that very thing, it is NOT cheating.
Some players want to think that pushing monsters off edges to their deaths is cheating. This same method has been used by Devs in the Dev demo videos. So if a dev uses this same method, why would players consider it cheating?
If areas are "skippable" and the devs do not "fix" the parts that can be skipped then by default they are not cheats until they are fixed. Expecting a player to change their behavior is not the solution. The solution is that the devs "patch the holes" where the cheats are. Until they are patched it is NOT a cheat.
Don't blame the players for lazy development.
Cmon Krumple... you know straight up that it is cheating the content. Just because there are loopholes and bugs in the dungeon, does not mean it is okay to use them... just as if a person left their car unlocked, it is not okay to steal it. You know that you are cheating if you are participating in speed runs and boss glitches.
ikostusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited August 2013
TBH, fine and dandy if a group al needs gear really bad, but personally, I hate it, my friends always want to do it, and all they can say about the ones that are not usually speed run or bug abused, they consider to be to hard.
I say, lets take the challenge! Thats why I play this game, its not 100% about the loot or the speed of how I get it, I just want to do some teamwork and have some fun!
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
TBH, fine and dandy if a group al needs gear really bad, but personally, I hate it, my friends always want to do it, and all they can say about the ones that are not usually speed run or bug abused, they consider to be to hard.
I say, lets take the challenge! Thats why I play this game, its not 100% about the loot or the speed of how I get it, I just want to do some teamwork and have some fun!
Yep that is all it comes down to. They want to cheat because the game is too Hard. Sadly, the game is too hard for a big majority of the players it seems.
To all the people that do Cheat.. I feel bad for you. I have spent hours learning this game and learning all of the dungeons to complete them without cheating. It is possible to clear all of the content... and yes you will get faster and better the more times you do it.
Cmon Krumple... you know straight up that it is cheating the content. Just because there are loopholes and bugs in the dungeon, does not mean it is okay to use them... just as if a person left their car unlocked, it is not okay to steal it. You know that you are cheating if you are participating in speed runs and boss glitches.
This is true, and I also agree in that I do not like cheating, either. But in order for that to stick the devs need to nip it -- otherwise it will be presumed to be okay. I remember in relatively early WoW when there was a certain ueber/elite guild which had figured out how to exploit a dungeon using LOS tricks so as to pull a boss but not his adds. Blizzard intervened almost immediately, and warned them that if they did not stop doing this, they would be banned, and this got around as well so that others didn't do it (and GMs were watching what was happening in that instance with the elite guilds, as well). But if you mosey along and don't do anything, it leads players to understand that it's ok. I'm not talking about CWs and GFs punting mobs ... that DOES seem like intended design ... but campfire rez bypasses, terrain exploits and the like ... it isn't going to be accepted by the players doing these things that they are exploits unless the developer comes out and strongly says that they are and penalizes people who continue to do them. I don't think PWE will do so, honestly, because there isn't an upside to doing so for them.
TBH, fine and dandy if a group al needs gear really bad, but personally, I hate it, my friends always want to do it, and all they can say about the ones that are not usually speed run or bug abused, they consider to be to hard.
I say, lets take the challenge! Thats why I play this game, its not 100% about the loot or the speed of how I get it, I just want to do some teamwork and have some fun!
Yep i remember some exploiters i made clearing the way to the boss Karrundax - you know, the open zone before the arena. There has been several wipes, probably 2-3, on easy forgecallers. One of them because they dodged to random places, taking aggro on additional NPCs. That's basic mistakes players playing since OB shouldn't do anymore. Yet they still do that.
I also know some guildies (who aren't good players either) saying it's too hard, we've just wiped once, so let's use exploits. TBH i don't see the point of all that, but i guess i'm too busy trying to keep everyone alive to be bored.
Cmon Krumple... you know straight up that it is cheating the content. Just because there are loopholes and bugs in the dungeon, does not mean it is okay to use them... just as if a person left their car unlocked, it is not okay to steal it. You know that you are cheating if you are participating in speed runs and boss glitches.
What are we comparing? Real life again to a video game? Seriously? How about we keep the same terms? In a game if a car is unlocked sure as hell you can take the car. Was it intended by the developers to be able to steal the car? That is the question. So lets actually keep the perspective. Comparing real life behavior to in game behavior is completely different. I mean if you really want to insist that real life is a legitimate comparison, then why are you fine with killing other players? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of murder? But you don't seem to have a problem with that. Seriously it is laughable any time someone compares a video game to real life to make a point.
So it is your assertion that anything that is not directly prohibited by the game is *not* a cheat? Do you subscribe to the notion that "it's only illegal if you get caught"?
It is not hard to realize that certain behaviors are wrong - such as leaping to your death in order to respawn further ahead in the dungeon, or taking part in suicide runs.
Yes, I'm absolutely certain the devs will *love* the idea of players committing suicide in order to skip large portions of the dungeons they put so much effort into, and make it a standard, intended part of the game. :rolleyes:
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What are we comparing? Real life again to a video game? Seriously? How about we keep the same terms? In a game if a car is unlocked sure as hell you can take the car. Was it intended by the developers to be able to steal the car? That is the question. So lets actually keep the perspective. Comparing real life behavior to in game behavior is completely different. I mean if you really want to insist that real life is a legitimate comparison, then why are you fine with killing other players? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of murder? But you don't seem to have a problem with that. Seriously it is laughable any time someone compares a video game to real life to make a point.
It was a metaphor. People who enjoy cheating are weak/bad players.
How come whenever I want to finish a dungeon and am sick to death of dying in the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> PuG I end up in, I never get a skilled cheater in the next queue, or the one after that, or the one after that. There's apparently plenty around but I've never found one when my moral compass was broken from being pissed off and could have been so easily swayed to the dark side.
Comments
By that logic, why do you even care if it's "just a game" and nothing in this game is going to impact anyone. I mean I think you are just asking for attention now like any attention *****.
Also, people will always find the most efficient way to run things. ALWAYS there is no exception to that rule. As long as people have a competitive mindset which we do in nature nothing will ever change on people finding quick ways to do things. Speed running dungeons is one of the things.
Why play hard? Play smart!
The fun of the game for me is the entire aspect... the game mechanics... fighting through the trash... killing the boss. It is all part of the experience. Sometimes I wonder why people even play this game... they want to cheat to farm the best gear... yet they do nothing when they have the best gear... a lot of that gear helps during trash, during the boss fights, etc... that they never experience.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
No, the difference is progression speed where some people progress way quicker than other people because either
1. More time
2. Play Smarter than Harder
3. That experience you are describing is like a one week since game released experience for Veteran MMO players.
What you described is something for someone who has never played an MMO as got a "wow" factor out of this.
I mean this game isn't even optimally designed and still has so many and I repeat SO MANY bugs.
Also, why would anyone even care how others feel about what is fun for them?
If the way you described is fun for you why discriminate other people in the first place on how they have fun?
****, some people spend all their days in Foundry's.
Have you even read anything that I have posted? I have played plenty of MMOs and have played this game since Beta. I have not needed to do any cheating with my friends... the only time I have encountered it is during pug runs when I offer to heal for random players.
Cheating ruins the fun in this game. Clearing mobs effectively is one thing.... sneaking to a boss to avoid trash is another. Kiting a boss to a certain part of the room is one thing... standing on top of a statue where the boss can't reach you is another.
Like I said... weak players that like to cheat should be put on their own shard... there they can queue up, zone in... all bosses will be at the beginning and fall over dead. They can drop the entire tier set for everybody that is there. That is what they are looking for at the end of the day.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Knocking off mobs with a no limit CW shield and skipping mobs is about the same thing except for the knock off taking 10 seconds longer.
Having people stand on terrain where mobs or AI doesn't get to the player is a design flaw. The fact that you can even walk on the outside terrain is questionable and was probably intended at first without thinking about the consequences.
If that was literally cheating then the devs would of put up more "invisible walls" or if they cared enough would section off terrains at boss fights. If anything it's the lack of testing where players can go on terrains.
Also, having mass spawns at bosses with no real play but seeing everything red on the ground isn't so much fun or anything. Having mobs hit you for 10k+ and have no way of actually doing counter-play on them is pretty stupid. Again, just my take on how the AI and design is in this game about mass spawning and mobs doing a **** ton of damage for no reason.
1) Unfortunately the majority of players do not share the same likes/dislikes as you do.
For example, most people dislike having to constantly kill Ice Trolls that bug out & constantly spawn. <---THIS IS NOT FUN.
2) A lot of people don't "want to cheat." Rather they just want to farm the best gear. It's part of the fun of an MMORPG. I don't play MMOs to be a mindless button presser. (Like killing trash mobs...even if the buttons make things flashy. Derp.) For me, the fun in MMOs is the gameplay, theory crafting, & gear.
As an FPS gamer, the game mechanics can be extremely simple (point and click, move around) & I won't mind as long as the gameplay is good.
Agreed there are a lot of bad players...in every game.
Heck, even entire countries are notorious for their bad players. (BRs)
Luckily you can simply kick them to the curb in most games, including Neverwinter.
& a game shouldn't cater to terribads like Neverwinter is currently doing. *Cough Balance Cough PvP Cough*
Yes, games should cater towards casuals. But not terribads. There's an important distinction here.
1) TR stealthing to bypass is intentional game mechanics. (It's how Cryptic designed their stealth class) So is warping everyone together. (To keep parties together) Mixing the two is not & that's where we get exploits.
2) Great idea & good luck with that. /sarcasm. If you manage to implement a way to somehow segregate cheaters, you'll be an extremely rich person.
Oh but i am having fun with the current game mechanics. I don't mind if it takes longer to get gear, i have what i want - 3 chars with a full T2 set, several greater enchants, and so on. My main char is around 11k gs, i don't need more, i'm doing fine in pvp and pve. What's fun is indeed killing stuff, going to the boss, then using the strat to kill it. I truely don't mind of other people have trouble getting their gear. Not my business, you see. All i want is enjoying the great combat mechanics.
Competition is never a good excuse to cheat. That's why people are tested for drugs in sport competitions. Cheating isn't allowed, because it ruins the competition itself. If you want to farm stuff, you better become a good player, kill stuff quickly and efficiently, in an ideal neverwinter game. I just hope the devs spend some time to redesign the dungeon system, to make mob killing/pushing mandatory to unlock the boss or something like that. Just to make it a real competition, not a mindless and stupid race to chests.
Most of the people who don't want to see exploits fixed always find silly reasons to justify their cheating ways, but my guess is that they aren't good at all, and would have to learn to play the game. It's definitely not about time. People complain about the time required to kill mobs before the boss, but it takes time because they suck hard and never learnt to play because they use exploits all the time. Not because dungeon design is terrible.
I'll say that again, using slightly different words. The attraction for most people in an MMO is extrinsic to the gameplay, independent of the gameplay. The motives vary greatly. Some people just like virtual worlds. Other people like exploration. Others like RP. Some people like to dominate other people in PvP. Others like to deck out their characters in BiS as quickly as possible. These are the main motives -- not that people actually *enjoy* the gameplay to a great degree in and of itself. (The one exception to this is the attraction that some seem to have to the YouTube kabuki-dance style of boss "mechanics" from WoW that some people seem to enjoy, at least for a while, but there again the main motive isn't the "fun" of the mechanics themselves, but being able to get the gear that comes from them by being a good dancer, so to speak, as compared with other players, and getting both tangible and visual rewards for that.)
This is to be compared with other genres of games that people play predominantly for the game play, because they enjoy it (especially single player games). Multiplayer games, by contrast, are often serving motives relating to competitiveness and comparative success relative to other players much more than the actual gameplay being enjoyable to the player. For this type of MMO player, it's often about the epeen and fashion show element of the game ("If you've got it, flaunt it!"), as a means of expressing relative success in a global competition with other players.
So in that context the kind of MMO player who is motivated by that aspect, the gameplay is always principally a means to an end. It isn't the main point of the game -- it's a means to expressing the point, which is displaying relative success as compared with the rest of the playerbase -- i.e., socially expressed competitive dominance. Some "means to an end" gameplay are more enjoyable, at least for a while, than others, but for this type of player they are never the point or the motive. And so because they are a means to an end, they will be shortened, cut-down, exploited and so on, because the gameplay isn't itself the point of the game for these players -- it's just a means to an end.
It is up to the game designer to determine what is cheating and also doing their job to prevent cheating. If "cheating" continues without the development doing anything to address or prevent it, then by that very thing, it is NOT cheating.
Some players want to think that pushing monsters off edges to their deaths is cheating. This same method has been used by Devs in the Dev demo videos. So if a dev uses this same method, why would players consider it cheating?
If areas are "skippable" and the devs do not "fix" the parts that can be skipped then by default they are not cheats until they are fixed. Expecting a player to change their behavior is not the solution. The solution is that the devs "patch the holes" where the cheats are. Until they are patched it is NOT a cheat.
Don't blame the players for lazy development.
I mean it's like running a marathon and taking the bus for the first 40 kilometers, just so you get your medal for participating. If you don't like to run marathon, if it is too hard and takes too long, stay at home.
And if you don't like to run a dungeon, stop. There are certain dungeons, that i don't want to see anymore, so i take a break and do something else. And if it is just about the gear, you don't need it. You don't put it to use anyway. You can cheat just as well with green gear. So again, I don't get it.
And if you insist on cheating, because for whatever twisted reason you came up with, do it in the privacy of your guild or with friends, no one stops you. The public space should be the place where the content is played without cheating, not the other way around.
But I know, as long as cheating is possible, people will cheat. It's the devs that have to step up and do something.
Because that thing is a means to an end which you do want. That's the motive. It isn't how I play myself (I don't like dungeons much so I don't do them much), but I do understand that people want the "end" reward, and see the gameplay as a means to that end.
So it is your assertion that anything that is not directly prohibited by the game is *not* a cheat? Do you subscribe to the notion that "it's only illegal if you get caught"?
It is not hard to realize that certain behaviors are wrong - such as leaping to your death in order to respawn further ahead in the dungeon, or taking part in suicide runs.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
"Most of the people who don't want to see exploits fixed always find silly reasons to justify their cheating ways, but my guess is that they aren't good at all" BINGO
This is probably the best post I've read on this forum. You summed it up so well. Bravo.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Cmon Krumple... you know straight up that it is cheating the content. Just because there are loopholes and bugs in the dungeon, does not mean it is okay to use them... just as if a person left their car unlocked, it is not okay to steal it. You know that you are cheating if you are participating in speed runs and boss glitches.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
I say, lets take the challenge! Thats why I play this game, its not 100% about the loot or the speed of how I get it, I just want to do some teamwork and have some fun!
Yep that is all it comes down to. They want to cheat because the game is too Hard. Sadly, the game is too hard for a big majority of the players it seems.
To all the people that do Cheat.. I feel bad for you. I have spent hours learning this game and learning all of the dungeons to complete them without cheating. It is possible to clear all of the content... and yes you will get faster and better the more times you do it.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
This is true, and I also agree in that I do not like cheating, either. But in order for that to stick the devs need to nip it -- otherwise it will be presumed to be okay. I remember in relatively early WoW when there was a certain ueber/elite guild which had figured out how to exploit a dungeon using LOS tricks so as to pull a boss but not his adds. Blizzard intervened almost immediately, and warned them that if they did not stop doing this, they would be banned, and this got around as well so that others didn't do it (and GMs were watching what was happening in that instance with the elite guilds, as well). But if you mosey along and don't do anything, it leads players to understand that it's ok. I'm not talking about CWs and GFs punting mobs ... that DOES seem like intended design ... but campfire rez bypasses, terrain exploits and the like ... it isn't going to be accepted by the players doing these things that they are exploits unless the developer comes out and strongly says that they are and penalizes people who continue to do them. I don't think PWE will do so, honestly, because there isn't an upside to doing so for them.
Yep i remember some exploiters i made clearing the way to the boss Karrundax - you know, the open zone before the arena. There has been several wipes, probably 2-3, on easy forgecallers. One of them because they dodged to random places, taking aggro on additional NPCs. That's basic mistakes players playing since OB shouldn't do anymore. Yet they still do that.
I also know some guildies (who aren't good players either) saying it's too hard, we've just wiped once, so let's use exploits. TBH i don't see the point of all that, but i guess i'm too busy trying to keep everyone alive to be bored.
What are we comparing? Real life again to a video game? Seriously? How about we keep the same terms? In a game if a car is unlocked sure as hell you can take the car. Was it intended by the developers to be able to steal the car? That is the question. So lets actually keep the perspective. Comparing real life behavior to in game behavior is completely different. I mean if you really want to insist that real life is a legitimate comparison, then why are you fine with killing other players? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of murder? But you don't seem to have a problem with that. Seriously it is laughable any time someone compares a video game to real life to make a point.
Skiing:
http://tribes.wikia.com/wiki/Skiing
Yes, I'm absolutely certain the devs will *love* the idea of players committing suicide in order to skip large portions of the dungeons they put so much effort into, and make it a standard, intended part of the game. :rolleyes:
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
It was a metaphor. People who enjoy cheating are weak/bad players.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting