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Alleged "speed runs"
xezzu
Member Posts: 3 Arc User
I don't get it.
Well, I guess in theory, I do. But for the most part, no.. I don't.
It seems to me that these "speed runs", where someone will race to the next campfire/rez point and 'unlock' it and have everyone relog or die to spawn there is exploiting the game. I may be wrong, but I'm quite sure that the game was not designed with that in mind. It also takes away from the dungeon itself. I mean, what exactly are players playing for if they are just going to skip by all the content to 'earn' their gear.. which, frankly, in my opinion, they aren't really earning.
Maybe this is appealing to some players - the idea of a gaggle of monsters running after you, threatening to kill you outright if they catch you before you finish your race to the campfire. I guess.. I can see that. Well, not really. Maybe we should just petition Cryptic to take all the monsters out of dungeons so we can just walk right up to the bosses and down them. I imagine they could put out a lot more content that way. Certainly wouldn't take as much time. Then again, I imagine a great deal of those same players that exploit this would complain about a lack of content at that point as well.
This is not to say that it isn't efficient. For those times where it actually does work, and everyone gets to the boss and someone doesn't leave out of aggravation, yes.. it is a more efficient way of farming gear. It's also an efficient way of ruining the game.
I digress.
I simply wonder what other players think about it. Clearly I expect some, if not that majority, to share their thoughts supporting the exploitative method, but I;m also curious if there are others who feel the same as I do about it. Maybe I'm the lone-wolf here. I'm also curious if Cryptic intended this, and if not, perhaps they could shed some light and a remedy for it.
Well, I guess in theory, I do. But for the most part, no.. I don't.
It seems to me that these "speed runs", where someone will race to the next campfire/rez point and 'unlock' it and have everyone relog or die to spawn there is exploiting the game. I may be wrong, but I'm quite sure that the game was not designed with that in mind. It also takes away from the dungeon itself. I mean, what exactly are players playing for if they are just going to skip by all the content to 'earn' their gear.. which, frankly, in my opinion, they aren't really earning.
Maybe this is appealing to some players - the idea of a gaggle of monsters running after you, threatening to kill you outright if they catch you before you finish your race to the campfire. I guess.. I can see that. Well, not really. Maybe we should just petition Cryptic to take all the monsters out of dungeons so we can just walk right up to the bosses and down them. I imagine they could put out a lot more content that way. Certainly wouldn't take as much time. Then again, I imagine a great deal of those same players that exploit this would complain about a lack of content at that point as well.
This is not to say that it isn't efficient. For those times where it actually does work, and everyone gets to the boss and someone doesn't leave out of aggravation, yes.. it is a more efficient way of farming gear. It's also an efficient way of ruining the game.
I digress.
I simply wonder what other players think about it. Clearly I expect some, if not that majority, to share their thoughts supporting the exploitative method, but I;m also curious if there are others who feel the same as I do about it. Maybe I'm the lone-wolf here. I'm also curious if Cryptic intended this, and if not, perhaps they could shed some light and a remedy for it.
Post edited by xezzu on
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if you are in the position where your fun is compromised...... put yourself out of that situation and take another route that is more satisfying.
simple.
---- FIRE EVERYTHING ! ----
These are just my feelings, and I know plenty of people who have differing opinions, but this is normal =3
Learn your Speed run terms.
Thanks,
These posts sum up how I feel. Full clears are fun the first few times, but since the dungeons are static and there's only so many...you get bored, typically before you get the drop you want.
So you want as many loots as possible to get rewards to play content you don't enjoy. My conclusion is that you're either stupid and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> or you're not telling the whole story. My assumption is that you're attracted by the cash shop stuff, don't want to spend money on the game, don't want to admit it, and will just ruin other people's fun for this very selfish purpose.
And yes, when you exploit, you're devaluating loot, and ruining the fun of people not cheating, since loots are now mostly worthless.
Who said we didn't enjoy it. Problem is the RNG dictates that I must run this specific dungeon 500 times to get lucky for a drop.
Sorry folks, just because you want to stop and smell every ********* rose on the planet does not require me to do so.
You play your way and I will play mine. In fact why don't you join the "Smell Roses All Day" guild. You know...like minded people.
I spent money on this game, how about you?
There are multiple solutions to fix the inherent flaw in this design, by redoing the design. I'm not a big fan of pulling ideas from other games; however Rift had a good idea with their dungeons that could be incorporated here. Remove the DD event, and every player has a set number of DD chests that are useable every 24 hours. (I would go along the lines of maybe 8, figure the average is 2-3 dungeons per DD, 4 DD's per day, but the number doesnt not truly matter for the sake of discussion). This allows players to get a 'DD' chest during the day, without being penalized for not being on during 1 specific hour of the day. After the chests are 'used' you no longer get chests for the day.
Now of course this has an inherent flaw, being one of 'people will only run 8 (or however many its set to), dungeons a day, but unfortunately there is no 'fool proof' system that accommodates both hard core and casual players adequately.
The second underlying problem is the amount of bugs and glitches within the game itself that are exploited. Insta Kill Temple of the Spider, 2 of the bosses, TR's running the entire Frozen Heart Dungeon to the last boss, Graphical bugs that allow skipping of content (leading up to 3rd boss in Castle Never for example). Before you can stop or eliminate 'speed runs' or label them as exploitative, you have to remove the true exploits in the game first. Temple of the Spider for example, Speed run 12 minutes due to bugs within the game itself that allow that time to be achievable. Remove those, and the speed run now jumps probably up to 18-19 minutes, (eliminating 1 run). Fix what is truly broken, then evaluate how the game is working before making any further changes.
Changes to fix cheating, I think, would be highly welcomes by hard core and casual players alike. While some may grumble that they no longer can run certain things as efficient as they once could, are also delighted to see the game be less broken.
Changes to fix a challenge (speed runs for example), are only to pacify those who do not have time to play the game as much as they would like , are used as a way of 'dumbing' the game down even further and removing the necessity for skill, or are ultimately changes just to get players to be quiet in hopes that the next set of out-criers are less vocal than the ones they just pleased.
I don't do it (wow, you assume a LOT when you post, don't you??), but I think I do know *why* people do.
1. Dungeons get boring after a few runs of the same exact thing. They become a grind; and a long one at that.
2. They take long to run for only one drop off a boss when you are outside of the DD event. You have a team of people, after all. It's nonsense that only one person gets a drop; and to top it off, it's usually not anything worth using.
3. The DD event (the only time worth running for the whole team) only lasts one hour and unless you are jobless and have no life, you'll probably only see 2 of these in day if things line up just right.
4. Even during the DD event, it's rare that anyone gets the good item that they came for. It's usually a belt or necklace that everyone and their mom is already trying to sell on the AH.
5. There are numerous trash monsters that simply take too long to kill on the way to the boss. They aren't challenging, they just have tons of HP and even with a great DPSing party, they still take a while.
6. These super HP monsters don't drop enough loot. If a few rank 4 enchants popped out of each one, it wouldn't be so bad, perhaps. It takes a team to kill them, yet they drop loot like you're in a solo dungeon.
If some of these issues, not even all, were addressed, I think less people would be trying to skip to the bosses. I'm not arguing for or against skipping stuff. I'm just saying there are many factors that have lead people to it that could be addressed. Aside from just fixing the holes, that is.
I'm glad that experience is replicated in this game.
Also, for most of my guild's "speed runs," we find it faster to just kill everything than to use tedious exploits. That stuff works fine for pugs, but in well-geared and coordinated groups, just face-smashing ever encounter is almost always much faster.
Agreed. It is a learning curve for a group to know when to smash and when to toss or when to climb. Once you get it all min/maxed and folks relax a bit...the ride is fun.
1st Dungeon clear fun and time consuming,
2nd Not so fun, but you want to find ways to improve how to do it and speed up the time in the process,
3rd You want it to END ASAP.
4th You wanna get the best and fastest pay out possible.
5th No one really cares about earning their own loot in this game, you can just spend the AD in the AH and purchase it, it's not like the other MMO I play where you have to complete a Dungeon to unlock a Deed and have tons of Tokens to trade for gear, T1 and T2 sets that become BOUND to YOU. (T1 Dungeons, T2 Dungeons)
When DD goes up we only get 1 Hour to gain full Party loot. (Which the chests seem to have gotten worse)
Once that DD is appearing you wanna pre clear a big dungeon you can take your time or speed it up.
after you finish off the boss you want to start a smaller Dungeon where you can Speedrun it multiple times when DD event is up you wanna get the best pay out.
My last 15 DD Events have gotten me nothing good. (Belts/Rings/Necklaces) I normally do 3-5 Dungeons per DD add that up. This is a main reason why players want to not waste so much time in a Dungeon for useless loot.
I'm pretty sure you can't clear a T2 dungeon in under 12 minutes. That's about the current speed time for spider now, isn't it? I've heard 10, 11, and 12.
2. The entire party takes significantly increased Injury and Potion kit costs for this playstyle. Often Clerics and low Defense CWs will pay even more.
3. Gap between Dungeon Delves is 6 hours and you get one hour to maximise your "reward". What are most endgame players going to do the rest of that time, given their limited time already?
After a while, players feel they have no choice. You either do the same exact content with hundreds of trash times hundreds of runs and get nothing for all your effort (since trash provides nothing for endgame) or you just skip doing the exact same thing all the time for no gain and get to something that is not only far more interesting (boss encounter mechanics) but also rewarding (boss and chest drops).
It is just the design of the game. Human groups behave in the exact same way with the same incentives. If WoW content were designed like this, the same exact thing would happen there.
That's just how it is. None of us may like it, but that does not change the system.
With all due respect, and no offense meant, can you provide a link or something where this was said. I'd be very interested in its context.
Sure. The context was pre-clears, which uses the exact same campfire relogging mechanic. Here is one of many quotes, this one is from a dev I believe (could be a designer though):
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?316671-Dungeon-Delves-Preclearing-exploit-or-not&p=4088122&viewfull=1#post4088122
I have seen others from admins too.
Many people in this thread.
Not true. You have to run the same dungeon at most 15-20 times to get the T2 item you want. Some people might need more run but it's just bad luck. You can get a BiS char within 1 month if you play for 1h30 every evening. That's definitely not much.
Oh by the way, you don't need anything. It's just a game. You want some specific drops, or ADs, but in no way you "need" or are "forced" (by who?) to cheat. That's a choice, and i see many people with a full T2 set cheating just to milk dungeons, like i said earlier. I remember seeing a lot of threads about cryptic being greedy, but i guess the most greedy people here are just players.
This was an interesting read, I mean.. reading what people had to say in debate of the topic. It was also interesting to see the response Cryptic had to it. I appreciate you posting the link, but I don't feel it relates directly to the same thing this thread is for.
I guess what I mean is, pre-clearing a dungeon before the DD event is still clearing the dungeon. While trying to do this before the event is a questionable tactic by some players in the thread, even with the consent of Cryptic, the point I was getting at with the original post is more along the lines of B-lining through all the monsters from point A to point B, then dying or relogging, whichever is appropriate at the time, to skip all of the 'trash'.
I think the link you give is only relatable in tangent.
While it's not entirely the same, I believe our descriptions of the term follow the same principal. If the devs of the game have made it possible, it will be done. Simple as that. If they intended it any different they would have designed it different. I don't hate on those who can't, don't know how, or refuse to partake in 'pushing'. It's something that requires coordination and you can't always have that in a PUG. I think that in general we should respect one-another's decisions on how we play the game and either do it or don't, simple as that.
[EX]Officer - Order of the Raven
Preclears != campfire suicide runs. They may use a similar mechanic, but one is simply doing the dungeon legitimately, then logging to get credit for the DD event, while the other is an immersion-breaking "purposely dying" tactic to skip content.
Frankly, if they simply had DD or skirmishes trigger for folks who were already inside an instance, preclears wouldn't be needed.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
You must be dating RNG. She doesn't put out for me like she puts out for you.
If the dungeons WERE more fun and less stress-inducing, if the non-ending trash DID drop anything other than mediocre loot when you're LUCKY, if they didn't take SO LONG to complete, and if they happened more than a couple times a day where there's a chest at the end that actually has fantastic things in it that imply "GOOD JOB", then I'd be of a different mind-set. As it is, all I can do is shrug. They skip it, good for them.
Exploit or not, I do hope in future content they avoid this, BUT reduce the trash or make it valuable. After you've done the dungeon 3-4 times you'll want to skip trash too if it's possible.
You could clear CN in around 15 min before the last patch.