I didn't say that. CW who have builds around Oppressive Force can also be considered control. What I meant to say was traditional "control" mages WHO HAPPEN TO USE Arcane Singularity usually lead the group in total dps output as well.
Well, if you use Arcane Singularity and the shield bump combo, CW will usually lead in dps charts and also in controlling the mobs. You can label it whatever you want. I prefer labelling it as a "control" wizard. You can label it as a "dps" wizard. Either way, Arcane Singularity is the best daily that could provide control as well as catapult wizards to the top of the dps chart.
Every decent CW uses Singularity + Shield pulse. No one argued the viability of Singularities.
CC wise, there are definitely other and better ways, or at the very least ways that work in conjunction with Singularities to "control", providing party damage mitigation that Singularity alone can never provide.
DPS wise, you can not possibly maintain a chain of Singularities + Shield pulses without enough adds. While Shield pulse can be the biggest burst a CW can muster, a 0 CD shield pulse cycle is not sustainable under normal conditions. Also considering the time spent recharging your shield (while dodging reds), the insane threat you generate from one shield pulse, time spent dodging because you're not doing any other form of CC, mobs that plaster overlapping red circles underneath your Singularity that can one-two shot even fully stacked GFs, is not only an overall dps loss, but a high risk of deaths or complete wipes. Applying high damage DOTs like CoI and adding additional chill stacks, storm proccing, Stunning + freezing effects in a 20' radius, all this while still making use of a normal cycle of Singularity+Shield (which would also be doing more damage through debuffs/damage buffs applied), will yield more dps while leading to smoother runs. No one can convince me that spamming EF on tab + Sing + Shield yields to more efficient encounters, because I have tried it. Is it viable? Of course. And I am sure many CWs can clear CN with only these powers slotted. Is it the most efficient? not in my book. I am not what "dps" CWs you run with, but they are definitely missing out on something to do less damage than EF+Sing Spam+Shield. And that is why I dont use labels to differentiate between CWs. There are those that can CC, and others that can CC and dps, and it can be done with any spec.
You didn't post any reasons and didn't name any feats you claim to use. You even took kerrovitarras statement about the target limit of Arcane Singularity and edited your post. "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."
Even as a Thaumaturge specced CW, I can slot Entangling Force and use Arcane Singularity back-to-back, if I need to. But the chill effects I gain from Icy Terrain, Conduit of Ice and Chilling Cloud just add more benefits for the whole group. This is no single player game and if we're talking about epic dungeons--which you claim to do--, there are always 4 other players with you.
That is because I don't want other people to become misinformed by a mistake in my post.
I don't know the names of the feats off of the top of my head but they are the three feats on the bottom row of the heroic feat tree... 6% aoe dmg, additional arcane dmg, and 9% more aoe dmg. See my earlier post regarding synergy and target limits for the reasons that you're requesting.
Every decent CW uses Singularity + Shield pulse. No one argued the viability of Singularities.
CC wise, there are definitely other and better ways, or at the very least ways that work in conjunction with Singularities to "control", providing party damage mitigation that Singularity alone can never provide.
DPS wise, you can not possibly maintain a chain of Singularities + Shield pulses without enough adds. While Shield pulse can be the biggest burst a CW can muster, a 0 CD shield pulse cycle is not sustainable under normal conditions. Also considering the time spent recharging your shield (while dodging reds), the insane threat you generate from one shield pulse, time spent dodging because you're not doing any other form of CC, mobs that plaster overlapping red circles underneath your Singularity that can one-two shot even fully stacked GFs, is not only an overall dps loss, but a high risk of deaths or complete wipes. Applying high damage DOTs like CoI and adding additional chill stacks, storm proccing, Stunning + freezing effects in a 20' radius, all this while still making use of a normal cycle of Singularity+Shield (which would also be doing more damage through debuffs/damage buffs applied), will yield more dps while leading to smoother runs. No one can convince me that spamming EF on tab + Sing + Shield yields to more efficient encounters, because I have tried it. Is it viable? Of course. And I am sure many CWs can clear CN with only these powers slotted. Is it the most efficient? not in my book. I am not what "dps" CWs you run with, but they are definitely missing out on something to do less damage than EF+Sing Spam+Shield. And that is why I dont use labels to differentiate between CWs. There are those that can CC, and others that can CC and dps, and it can be done with any spec.
This thread is about using Arcane Singularity instead of trying to DPS with frost dailies... I think it got a little re-railed but you seem to agree that Singularity is probably the most important daily to be using.
Every decent CW uses Singularity + Shield pulse. No one argued the viability of Singularities.
CC wise, there are definitely other and better ways, or at the very least ways that work in conjunction with Singularities to "control", providing party damage mitigation that Singularity alone can never provide.
DPS wise, you can not possibly maintain a chain of Singularities + Shield pulses without enough adds. While Shield pulse can be the biggest burst a CW can muster, a 0 CD shield pulse cycle is not sustainable under normal conditions. Also considering the time spent recharging your shield (while dodging reds), the insane threat you generate from one shield pulse, time spent dodging because you're not doing any other form of CC, mobs that plaster overlapping red circles underneath your Singularity that can one-two shot even fully stacked GFs, is not only an overall dps loss, but a high risk of deaths or complete wipes. Applying high damage DOTs like CoI and adding additional chill stacks, storm proccing, Stunning + freezing effects in a 20' radius, all this while still making use of a normal cycle of Singularity+Shield (which would also be doing more damage through debuffs/damage buffs applied), will yield more dps while leading to smoother runs. No one can convince me that spamming EF on tab + Sing + Shield yields to more efficient encounters, because I have tried it. Is it viable? Of course. And I am sure many CWs can clear CN with only these powers slotted. Is it the most efficient? not in my book. I am not what "dps" CWs you run with, but they are definitely missing out on something to do less damage than EF+Sing Spam+Shield. And that is why I dont use labels to differentiate between CWs. There are those that can CC, and others that can CC and dps, and it can be done with any spec.
Time spent dodging? Insane threat from Shield bumps? The purpose of CONTROL spells such Arcane Singularity is to hold off mobs while you regenerate AP. As long as there are several mobs on the field, Entangling Force on tab + shield bumping + steal time will keep them controlled as well as enable you to AOE dps them.
Now for the scenario you say that there aren't a lot of mobs left.....debuffing skills, the Thaum build/feats comes into effect and your party should mow down those few adds anyways. Who said that Singularity means you cannot use Conduit of Ice anyways?
I don't know if you have been playing with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> GFs or you do not understand how to time Arcane Singularities or as you previously posted you liked to waste your daily to kill the last mob instead of saving it for the next big encounter but I haven't wiped doing dungeons runs (mostly CN) whilst speedrunning it (aka clumping a few groups of mobs to at least reach the 15-mob limit of Arcane Singularity).
If you want to keep this crusade of using other less-viable, less-efficient control/dps/whatever label build you want suit yourself. No one can convince me nor has anyone proven that there is another build that has the combination efficiency, control AND DPS of the Arcane Singularity/Shield combo.
However, Neverwinter is about RP for some people and if avoiding the use of cookie-cutter builds makes you feel good and unique that is your call.
I have explained my points, my counterpoints, what newbies typically do with Singularity, why it is the best daily for control and dps combo. If you still cannot grasp the logic, then we shall just agree to disagree. This is just going around in circles. Have fun in your preferred build as I will in mine.
NEXT!
However, Neverwinter is about RP for some people and if avoiding the use of cookie-cutter builds makes you feel good and unique that is your call.
I have explained my points, my counterpoints, what newbies typically do with Singularity, why it is the best daily for control and dps combo. If you still cannot grasp the logic, then we shall just agree to disagree. This is just going around in circles. Have fun in your preferred build as I will in mine.
NEXT!
This whole discussion, from the very beginning, was based more on misunderstanding and/or semantic stubbornness than on any real, practical disagreement. Everyone acknowledges Arcane Singularity's primacy among CW dailies. Full stop.
Everyone acknowledges that Arcane Singularity can be a great control tool in combination with various other tools (among them Steal Time and Shield pulse).
Almost everyone (including you) in this thread acknowledges that there are some situations in which Arcane Singularity isn't necessarily the best tool for the job. Not a lot, but some.
Most everything else is noise, as far as I'm concerned. Some people fixated on the phrase, "not the best control power," and decided to have a small rhetorical war on behalf of Arcane Singularity. But whether or not you believe that phrase to be semantically accurate, you appear to agree with the argument behind it, at least in principle. Substitute the phrase, "not the best stand-alone control power," or perhaps, "not the only useful daily power," if it suits you. Or don't. But let's not pretend that there's a vast philosophical difference here that can only be explained by incompetence or inexperience on one side or the other.
It is a peculiar quirk of internet debates that they so often devolve into senseless repetitions of the same points, over and over again, in increasingly strident terms -- even when both sides are essentially arguing the same things.
This whole discussion, from the very beginning, was based more on misunderstanding and/or semantic stubbornness than on any real, practical disagreement. Everyone acknowledges Arcane Singularity's primacy among CW dailies. Full stop.
Everyone acknowledges that Arcane Singularity can be a great control tool in combination with various other tools (among them Steal Time and Shield pulse).
Almost everyone (including you) in this thread acknowledges that there are some situations in which Arcane Singularity isn't necessarily the best tool for the job. Not a lot, but some.
Most everything else is noise, as far as I'm concerned. Some people fixated on the phrase, "not the best control power," and decided to have a small rhetorical war on behalf of Arcane Singularity. But whether or not you believe that phrase to be semantically accurate, you appear to agree with the argument behind it, at least in principle. Substitute the phrase, "not the best stand-alone control power," or perhaps, "not the only useful daily power," if it suits you. Or don't. But let's not pretend that there's a vast philosophical difference here that can only be explained by incompetence or inexperience on one side or the other.
It is a peculiar quirk of internet debates that they so often devolve into senseless repetitions of the same points, over and over again, in increasingly strident terms -- even when both sides are essentially arguing the same things.
In my opinion, building a skill spec and feat around Arcane Singularity is the most efficient spec in terms of control and damage but I agree with a lot of what you said.
Just because I believe Arcane Singularity is the most efficient daily does not mean other builds are not viable nor does it mean that Arcane Singularity is the best daily to use in 100% of all scenarios. There are some rare times where Ice Storm is the better option with examples as seen at the start of this thread.
Maybe its just because I am fixated in min-maxing, in pure efficiency, in thinking about the group and not just yourself, in controlling mobs. Maybe because most of the top-tier dungeons promote the use of Arcane Singularity. In any case, although I do advocate using Arcane Singularity and would heavily promote its use, I understand and I hope others who are reading this thread too that other builds are also viable and possibly much more fun or at least unique.
If you want to keep this crusade of using other less-viable, less-efficient control/dps/whatever label build you want suit yourself. No one can convince me nor has anyone proven that there is another build that has the combination efficiency, control AND DPS of the Arcane Singularity/Shield combo.
Arcane Singularity + Shield isn't a build. It's a tactic that's available to all Wizards. You describe a divide that doesn't exist.
In my opinion, building a skill spec and feat around Arcane Singularity is the most efficient spec in terms of control and damage but I agree with a lot of what you said.
Right, and I don't think that's a bad approach. The thing is that there's a continuum of build options ranging from full-on AS machine to full-on personal-DPS machine. For an example of the former, you might do something like this guy -- who eschewed CHA and even INT in favor of CON and WIS, and who eschewed basically all DPS stats in favor of overstacked recovery + HP + Regen. The entire build revolves (basically) around tossing mobs over ledges. And by all accounts, it's an extremely effective build given its creator's preferences.
On the other hand, I haven't seen a guide that suggests ditching Arcane Singularity or WIS/Recovery entirely, but I'm sure you could make one. As it happens, we don't really have any decent AoE attacks that aren't also decent control powers, so it'd be hard to focus a power loadout exclusively on DPS at the expense of control.
Those are the two extremes. Everyone else is somewhere in between. And thanks to Entangling Force (in tab), most everyone can choose to become a Singularity bot almost regardless of his other build choices when the situation calls for it. To the extent that this is a build discussion at all, the matter boils down to whether it's better to slot EF in tab by default, and thusly have maximum uptime on Singularity, or whether it's better to have maybe 10-15% fewer Singularities (because, for example, you've tab-slotted Thaumaturge-empowered Conduit instead) in favor of better control/damage otherwise.
That's it. That's the big source of build disagreement. This is not a matter of one side being slick and informed and high-end and uber-guilded, and the other playing clueless, goofy, off-the-wall RP builds.
All of that is only scarcely even relevant to the original point of contention here, though. We were talking about the usefulness of AS itself relative to other dailies. And on that score, near as I can tell, scarcely anyone really disagrees.
In my opinion, building a skill spec and feat around Arcane Singularity is the most efficient spec in terms of control and damage but I agree with a lot of what you said.
I agree with you.
Still this thread isn't about builds it's about whether or not a CW should use Arcane Singularity over damaging frost dailies in control situations.
In my opinion, building a skill spec and feat around Arcane Singularity is the most efficient spec in terms of control and damage but I agree with a lot of what you said.
Control - maybe. Damage - no. OF does more damage and counts as control power for sets (AS - no).
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
I don't know the names of the feats off of the top of my head but they are the three feats on the bottom row of the heroic feat tree... 6% aoe dmg, additional arcane dmg, and 9% more aoe dmg.
Easy to help you out: you're refering to "Wizard's Wrath", "Arcane Enhancement" and "Focused Wizardry", but they are available to all paragon feat builds.
This thread is about using Arcane Singularity instead of trying to DPS with frost dailies...
I'm sorry, I got confused with your posting about that the Thaumaturge build is inferior to "your" build--which, I suppose, is based on the Renegade paragon feat tree. But as I was saying in my first paragraph in this posting: using Arcane Singularity is not limited to any build.
And just to clear something up: I'm not saying that you should not use Arcane Singularity. But to maximize control, DPS and help out your group, you should accompany Arcane Singularity with Conduit of Ice, Steal Time and Icy Terrain!
Easy to help you out: you're refering to "Wizard's Wrath", "Arcane Enhancement" and "Focused Wizardry", but they are available to all paragon feat builds.
I'm sorry, I got confused with your posting about that the Thaumaturge build is inferior to "your" build--which, I suppose, is based on the Renegade paragon feat tree. But as I was saying in my first paragraph in this posting: using Arcane Singularity is not limited to any build.
And just to clear something up: I'm not saying that you should not use Arcane Singularity. But to maximize control, DPS and help out your group, you should accompany Arcane Singularity with Conduit of Ice, Steal Time and Icy Terrain!
You have me all wrong. I don't believe any build to be, "My build," aside from meaning that it is the build that I'm using.
Those feats I mentioned synergize perfectly with Arcane Singularity and Shield Pulse, which I had already stated in a prior post.
I disagree on the use of CoI and Icy Terrain. I prefer to use RoE and Steal time along with my Shield and EF Mastery. There's usually one tough mob in a pack for me to put RoE on.
Time spent dodging? Insane threat from Shield bumps? The purpose of CONTROL spells such Arcane Singularity is to hold off mobs while you regenerate AP. As long as there are several mobs on the field, Entangling Force on tab + shield bumping + steal time will keep them controlled as well as enable you to AOE dps them.
Now for the scenario you say that there aren't a lot of mobs left.....debuffing skills, the Thaum build/feats comes into effect and your party should mow down those few adds anyways. Who said that Singularity means you cannot use Conduit of Ice anyways?
I don't know if you have been playing with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> GFs or you do not understand how to time Arcane Singularities or as you previously posted you liked to waste your daily to kill the last mob instead of saving it for the next big encounter but I haven't wiped doing dungeons runs (mostly CN) whilst speedrunning it (aka clumping a few groups of mobs to at least reach the 15-mob limit of Arcane Singularity).
If you want to keep this crusade of using other less-viable, less-efficient control/dps/whatever label build you want suit yourself. No one can convince me nor has anyone proven that there is another build that has the combination efficiency, control AND DPS of the Arcane Singularity/Shield combo.
However, Neverwinter is about RP for some people and if avoiding the use of cookie-cutter builds makes you feel good and unique that is your call.
I have explained my points, my counterpoints, what newbies typically do with Singularity, why it is the best daily for control and dps combo. If you still cannot grasp the logic, then we shall just agree to disagree. This is just going around in circles. Have fun in your preferred build as I will in mine.
NEXT!
Very well, agree to disagree. Apparently either we're playing two different games, or somehow your Singularity is different than mine and has the ability to suspend all attacks, frontal, cleaves, AoE circles/Cones, and any lingering AoEs that still do damage even after the mobs is sucked in. Many of us noobs actually still have to teleport and move out of reds. Many of us noobs often run T2s without GFs/GWFs.
I am available on Dragon any time, if you care to show me this amazing cycle of insane dps with EF+Sing+Shield. I have had the pleasure of running with a few CWs in this forum, some of which have their own threads/specs/guides. I am not challenging you. It is purely for educational purposes, much of which would be for my benefit since you seem to have it all figured out.
Very well, agree to disagree. Apparently either we're playing two different games, or somehow your Singularity is different than mine and has the ability to suspend all attacks, frontal, cleaves, AoE circles/Cones, and any lingering AoEs that still do damage even after the mobs is sucked in. Many of us noobs actually still have to teleport and move out of reds. Many of us noobs often run T2s without GFs/GWFs.
I am available on Dragon any time, if you care to show me this amazing cycle of insane dps with EF+Sing+Shield. I have had the pleasure of running with a few CWs in this forum, some of which have their own threads/specs/guides. I am not challenging you. It is purely for educational purposes, much of which would be for my benefit since you seem to have it all figured out.
The Shield Pulse is what stops the attacks from mobs while Singularity is charging to burst. Also, Steal time. Or, SotEA. - For my rotation.
Control - maybe. Damage - no. OF does more damage and counts as control power for sets (AS - no).
I'm not sure if I remember it correctly, but aren't mobs being dazed by OF can still move or attack? And the overall time OF stuns mobs seem to be short; while AS pulls mobs away from you so they can't attack you and the duration is longer than OF.
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readytoredrumMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 65Arc User
I'm not sure if I remember it correctly, but aren't mobs being dazed by OF can still move or attack? And the overall time OF stuns mobs seem to be short; while AS pulls mobs away from you so they can't attack you and the duration is longer than OF.
I think the mobs dazed cannot attack. I prefer Singularity over Oppressive Force though
The Shield Pulse is what stops the attacks from mobs while Singularity is charging to burst.
Could you please elaborate, in which order you use Shield Pulse and Singularity? You sound like you cast Singularity and directly after casting it, you use shield pulse, so the mobs get pushed back further before sucked into the black hole? And how does that help with aggro?
Control - maybe. Damage - no. OF does more damage and counts as control power for sets (AS - no).
Only does more damage considering the HV bug. arcane singularity in many cases will do more damage because it will maximise the effectiveness of shield and other aoe spells (conduit for example). reducing the downtime/waiting time needed to use these spells again.
Oppressive force is still great though, I love using it in spellplague final phase to just kill all the zombies in a handful of seconds.
but specialising around one spell is rather silly. Speed > Damage. Not that you really can, because our feats are rather flexible (apart from the +aoe ones). Im one of those people who think single target damage is more important than aoe damage anyway, you kill bosses far more often than having to kill trash. And the feats/enchants you can take instead of +aoe only will benefit both instead of just one.
If you want to be the most efficient CW ever, you need to be able to be a pro clicker and be able to switch spells on the fly.
Singularity, Shield and then Steal Time in sequence gives everyone enough time to read the morning paper before mobs attack again.
Could you vets explain the best timing for this? Do you pop Shield before mobs get sucked up in the black hole? Do you cast Steal Time right as the black hole is bursting? Not being sarcastic...I really do want advice on the best way to do this.
I am a brand new level 60 CW. Just bought 3 pieces of HV set last nite. Rather than start a new thread, I thought it best to ask this question here.
Could you vets explain the best timing for this? Do you pop Shield before mobs get sucked up in the black hole? Do you cast Steal Time right as the black hole is bursting? Not being sarcastic...I really do want advice on the best way to do this.
I am a brand new level 60 CW. Just bought 3 pieces of HV set last nite. Rather than start a new thread, I thought it best to ask this question here.
You pop shield before mobs get sucked in so that the knocking off of the mobs is compensated by singularity scooping them up and placing them in the desired position. Something Oppressive Force cannot do.
If you are moderately geared (11k gs) and very experienced, you should technically have no time to cast Steal Time since you should be in almost endless Arcane Singularity/Shield Bump cycle but casting Steal Time is a good idea right after the bubble burst. Keep in mind to remember the timing so you can have the Steal Time effect coincide right after the short daze effect of Singularity wears off. Keep playing, have experience and you will get the timing of all these spells. I would suggest putting Entangling Force on tab because as the mobs get killed and you need more AP for the current/next encounter, that will be very useful for gaining AP. The last skill depends on your build/preference. Ray of Enfeeblement, Conduit of Ice and Icy Terrain are good choice. That last skill/s should only be used if there is a downtime.
High Vizier is a very very good set, if not the best set for CW. Try to get the 4th piece ASAP.
No one here is trying to say that singularity isn't a very useful or powerful daily. It's the first spell a CW has to learn to use, with shield and steal time. It doesn't mean it's the best spell in every single situation. There are times you need a confuse effect without a pulling effect, then you use OF. Sometimes, you want some brutal damage, especially when encounter spells can do enough CC.
The best advice i could give to new CWs is: never, ever use singularity for the sake of using a daily, or because your party is asking you to do that. Always use singularity + something else, be it shield to push or charge AP, icy terrain to freeze the whole pack, or whatever comes to your mind. In itself, it's a terrible CC spell. The only important thing is what you do with the pack of mobs you created: you can dps it (icy terrain + shield), push it (shield), or control it and play with it in a corner (icy terrain + steal time + shield to charge APs).
I like your part on "not letting people tell you what to do". Some people out there are just out to boss people around, while others do offer contructive insights to better synergy in a dungeon run, for instance. How a character plays is entirely of his/her own choice. I have seen DPS clerics that outdo mages, i have seen guardian fighters thrash rogues in damage, so control wizard is versatile ~ a DPS, a controller, a hybrid... its our own choice.
I have done some reading and experimenting and 5 respecs so far, and I can safely say that ALL the skills, and dailies each have their own uses (for CW in my case), none are actually thrash. Singularity is very group friendly, but so can oppressive. The latter works faster, in a more urgent situation, or in a smaller battlefield where theres no where you can drag mobs. Maelstrom~ don't forget the damage/control immunity that comes with it..and the high damage, despite people condemning it for being "small area".
Bottom line ~ yeah, anyone can do things that annoy the group: selfish wizards repelling mobs to inaccessible parts out of reach of the melees, clerics bouncing nice tight mobs with their divine sunbursts etc. *BE SURE OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING, AND DON'T LET OTHERS SWAY/CONTROL YOUR GAMING EXPERIENCE.
Well this is another point as to why despite the raw dps of Singularity not being as good as Ice Storm, it is still effectively a better DPS and control tool than Ice Storm. Clumping mobs helps you (shield bumps, conduit of Ice) and your party focus AOE the mobs by gathering them up and putting them in a desirable position to be nuked on.
With that said, you cannot stereotype Arcane Singularity as purely a "control spell". Why can't battle mages use Singularity? Because the raw dps isn't as good? It actually puts you AND your party in a position to deliver more damage. There is a reason why "control, not dps" mages using Singularity and Shield bump are almost always at the top of the damage chart at the end of the dungeon.
You make a very good point. The potential for group synergy is no doubt one of the best! I myself adopted it as an endgame daily, and NOT because it is needed to drag mobs off edges. No arguments there, rashylewizz. However, perhaps if you run in dungeons often enough, you will sense a whole new element in the epic scene ~ competitive atmosphere. Unless you are playing in a guild or with friends, I can sense people - tricksters, GWFs, GFs, wizards and even the occasional cleric - all trying to outdo one another. You see people rushing into the next scene ahead of others just to have a headstart. The point i am trying to make here is: group synergy is quite idealistic here... if, say, the wizard is out to be competitive, is Singularity still an ideal choice? i'd say no (and no to ice storm also, of course, since it scatters mobs). Damage is way too low, and for selfish wizards, it "benefits" the rest of the team. Its the sad truth, but i experience such scenarios all the time [i don't care, and i am not one of them though]
I've ran a few dungeons where the CW kept spamming ice storm. It was frustrating with my TR because that DF attack is just wasted but then I realized something and stopped chasing the mobs. Who the hell cares?! When the CW constantly blasts all the mobs away I just chill and wait for them to come back. The daily almost always increases the CW's threat level so a portion of the mobs go after him. I take this opportunity to build up my stealth or take out some mobs busy trying to kill the CW. As a TR it works for me so keep it up. Party dynamics be dammed do what you want buddy!
Works for you, but probably not for other classes, bro. As a CW myself, if I have a co-CW who does this, I get VERY annoyed. It screws up everyone's AoEs and will significantly lower the overall DPS of the team. They are either ignorant, oblivious to group dynamics or plain selfish (hoping to do more personal damage to outperform others also by inconveniencing others). In a dungeon, some people see a team fighting the boss, but also, some see a battlefield with 4 other rivals. Unless its a coup de grace, or it knocks mobs off edges, Ice storm is a BAD BAD idea.
I'll plead guilty about the competitive about my damage numbers...but I think you guys are pushing this too much toward thoughtless e-peen waving.
When I try to outdo my team-mates, it's not to diminish them - it's to try and squeeze out the most out of me and make sure I'm the most useful I can be to my team.
Ice storm is great for Karr final boss and the bridges in CN with spiders/fireball skellies (since it behaves just like a clerics divine sunburst). Other than that I use OF for everything, because HV+daze.
Telling people that Arcane Singularity is bad control power is downright misinformation. Arcane Singularity is in fact the best CW control power because it can do the one thing very few powers in the entire game can do - it allows the player to reposition mobs. Considering that about 50% of being a good player is knowing how to dodge special attacks or red circles, positioning in this game is EXTREMELY important. Don't EVER call yourself a control wizard if you can't cast Arcane Singularity. You're just a ranged DPS wannabe, nothing more. Oppressive Force just for the daze? Are you effing serious? If I wanted a DPSer with a good AoE daze I'd get a rogue with SMOKE BOMB.
Arcane Singularity wasn't meant to work by itself so stop telling people that it "sucks by itself". That is irrelevant. Are you also going to start telling people that healing powers suck because you can't kill monsters with them? LOL.
It's one thing to be a wizard in a team that does not need more control. If that's the case then feel free to slot whatever the hell you want because in the end it's all just a DPS race. This applies to most normal dungeons, most T1s, some T2s if you have a good team/good gear and just about everything if your a f***ing exploiter. It's a completely different story when you are actually expected to control mobs. Ever since the patch I've been forced to team up so many wizards who can't even handle shutting down just a handful of non-normal mobs, and they probably thought they were doing "alright' because of idiotic "be whatever you can be" advice from threads like this one. You know what's a decent CW? Someone who can easily shut down around 6+ non-normal mobs. Good CWs can easily handle at least twice as many mobs as that or a small group + a semi-boss.
Whether you are good CW or not has really nothing to do with your effing DPS since your DPS affected more by GEAR than SKILL. Give even a pure control wiz good armor pen/tenebs/plaguefire/whatever and just like that you're suddenly topping DPS charts.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
I have no trouble charging my AP bar, really. So i don't need to "save" it for the next encounter.
There are some other examples. It's just hard to make a comprehensive list. I use it all the time in Frozen heart (except during boss fights ofc), it's a great help to kill golems. Really, a lot better than ice knife. You can pull two golems, use ice storm, hit them for 7 to 15k each, charge your daily, do it with the next golem or get to a cliff with your daily up...
In epic DV, you also want thoon hulks to fly all over the place. The CW and the GF can take care of that. Chilling them is suicide. Singularity won't do much, unless you have a cliff, but using shield only should be a better choice even in this situation. So, ice storm is again a great help in there. It's the only spell allowing you to take care of 2 hulks at the same time. It's an interrupt, a bump and a stun. All you need to stop the black hole effect.
It is a good spell, better than ice knife for dps. But you have to learn to use it, because the bumps can be a negative side effect. Or a good one, depending on the situation.
Ahh, I thought that was you. the irritating second CW in FH. There is no excuse to use IS in a group dungeon, there is always a better tool that doesn't interfere with everyone else. There is nothing worse than another CW hamstringing you in a dungeon. You ar pulling your rotation setting up the mobs to burn down, you have them lined up sudden storm about to blaze through them, when Ice Storm is cast and you hit one archer, wtf. Then when your Steal Time is being cast IS hits and no mobs are there to fill your AP. A CW should know better, but not all do. Explain this to me though, if IS is so great for dmg how come you end up 3rd in damage on the charts after me and TR.
Because apparently very few wizards even know that IS has a 5 target limit. And that if there are a lot more than 5 hostiles around you can easily end up missing all your intended targets, including the above-mentioned Thoon. IS is very, very situational. Adding to the above example there's the worst case scenario that you can cause clerics to miss their Sunburst/chains/etc, preventing them from generating divinity/AP and making it impossible for them to drop a life-saving divine Astral Shield or Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor. Good job, you just guaranteed yourself a wipe.
"Singularity won't do much?" How about using Arcane Singularity to reposition all the Mind Flayers away from the Thoon Hulks so your group doesn't get randomly wiped by a hulk vacuum + mind flayer mind blast combo? That way you can actually keep the mind flayers busy while every other person with significantly better single-target DPS can work on killing off/disabling the Thoon Hulk in peace.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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Every decent CW uses Singularity + Shield pulse. No one argued the viability of Singularities.
CC wise, there are definitely other and better ways, or at the very least ways that work in conjunction with Singularities to "control", providing party damage mitigation that Singularity alone can never provide.
DPS wise, you can not possibly maintain a chain of Singularities + Shield pulses without enough adds. While Shield pulse can be the biggest burst a CW can muster, a 0 CD shield pulse cycle is not sustainable under normal conditions. Also considering the time spent recharging your shield (while dodging reds), the insane threat you generate from one shield pulse, time spent dodging because you're not doing any other form of CC, mobs that plaster overlapping red circles underneath your Singularity that can one-two shot even fully stacked GFs, is not only an overall dps loss, but a high risk of deaths or complete wipes. Applying high damage DOTs like CoI and adding additional chill stacks, storm proccing, Stunning + freezing effects in a 20' radius, all this while still making use of a normal cycle of Singularity+Shield (which would also be doing more damage through debuffs/damage buffs applied), will yield more dps while leading to smoother runs. No one can convince me that spamming EF on tab + Sing + Shield yields to more efficient encounters, because I have tried it. Is it viable? Of course. And I am sure many CWs can clear CN with only these powers slotted. Is it the most efficient? not in my book. I am not what "dps" CWs you run with, but they are definitely missing out on something to do less damage than EF+Sing Spam+Shield. And that is why I dont use labels to differentiate between CWs. There are those that can CC, and others that can CC and dps, and it can be done with any spec.
That is because I don't want other people to become misinformed by a mistake in my post.
I don't know the names of the feats off of the top of my head but they are the three feats on the bottom row of the heroic feat tree... 6% aoe dmg, additional arcane dmg, and 9% more aoe dmg. See my earlier post regarding synergy and target limits for the reasons that you're requesting.
This thread is about using Arcane Singularity instead of trying to DPS with frost dailies... I think it got a little re-railed but you seem to agree that Singularity is probably the most important daily to be using.
Time spent dodging? Insane threat from Shield bumps? The purpose of CONTROL spells such Arcane Singularity is to hold off mobs while you regenerate AP. As long as there are several mobs on the field, Entangling Force on tab + shield bumping + steal time will keep them controlled as well as enable you to AOE dps them.
Now for the scenario you say that there aren't a lot of mobs left.....debuffing skills, the Thaum build/feats comes into effect and your party should mow down those few adds anyways. Who said that Singularity means you cannot use Conduit of Ice anyways?
I don't know if you have been playing with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> GFs or you do not understand how to time Arcane Singularities or as you previously posted you liked to waste your daily to kill the last mob instead of saving it for the next big encounter but I haven't wiped doing dungeons runs (mostly CN) whilst speedrunning it (aka clumping a few groups of mobs to at least reach the 15-mob limit of Arcane Singularity).
If you want to keep this crusade of using other less-viable, less-efficient control/dps/whatever label build you want suit yourself. No one can convince me nor has anyone proven that there is another build that has the combination efficiency, control AND DPS of the Arcane Singularity/Shield combo.
However, Neverwinter is about RP for some people and if avoiding the use of cookie-cutter builds makes you feel good and unique that is your call.
I have explained my points, my counterpoints, what newbies typically do with Singularity, why it is the best daily for control and dps combo. If you still cannot grasp the logic, then we shall just agree to disagree. This is just going around in circles. Have fun in your preferred build as I will in mine.
NEXT!
This whole discussion, from the very beginning, was based more on misunderstanding and/or semantic stubbornness than on any real, practical disagreement. Everyone acknowledges Arcane Singularity's primacy among CW dailies. Full stop.
Everyone acknowledges that Arcane Singularity can be a great control tool in combination with various other tools (among them Steal Time and Shield pulse).
Almost everyone (including you) in this thread acknowledges that there are some situations in which Arcane Singularity isn't necessarily the best tool for the job. Not a lot, but some.
Most everything else is noise, as far as I'm concerned. Some people fixated on the phrase, "not the best control power," and decided to have a small rhetorical war on behalf of Arcane Singularity. But whether or not you believe that phrase to be semantically accurate, you appear to agree with the argument behind it, at least in principle. Substitute the phrase, "not the best stand-alone control power," or perhaps, "not the only useful daily power," if it suits you. Or don't. But let's not pretend that there's a vast philosophical difference here that can only be explained by incompetence or inexperience on one side or the other.
It is a peculiar quirk of internet debates that they so often devolve into senseless repetitions of the same points, over and over again, in increasingly strident terms -- even when both sides are essentially arguing the same things.
In my opinion, building a skill spec and feat around Arcane Singularity is the most efficient spec in terms of control and damage but I agree with a lot of what you said.
Just because I believe Arcane Singularity is the most efficient daily does not mean other builds are not viable nor does it mean that Arcane Singularity is the best daily to use in 100% of all scenarios. There are some rare times where Ice Storm is the better option with examples as seen at the start of this thread.
Maybe its just because I am fixated in min-maxing, in pure efficiency, in thinking about the group and not just yourself, in controlling mobs. Maybe because most of the top-tier dungeons promote the use of Arcane Singularity. In any case, although I do advocate using Arcane Singularity and would heavily promote its use, I understand and I hope others who are reading this thread too that other builds are also viable and possibly much more fun or at least unique.
Arcane Singularity + Shield isn't a build. It's a tactic that's available to all Wizards. You describe a divide that doesn't exist.
Right, and I don't think that's a bad approach. The thing is that there's a continuum of build options ranging from full-on AS machine to full-on personal-DPS machine. For an example of the former, you might do something like this guy -- who eschewed CHA and even INT in favor of CON and WIS, and who eschewed basically all DPS stats in favor of overstacked recovery + HP + Regen. The entire build revolves (basically) around tossing mobs over ledges. And by all accounts, it's an extremely effective build given its creator's preferences.
On the other hand, I haven't seen a guide that suggests ditching Arcane Singularity or WIS/Recovery entirely, but I'm sure you could make one. As it happens, we don't really have any decent AoE attacks that aren't also decent control powers, so it'd be hard to focus a power loadout exclusively on DPS at the expense of control.
Those are the two extremes. Everyone else is somewhere in between. And thanks to Entangling Force (in tab), most everyone can choose to become a Singularity bot almost regardless of his other build choices when the situation calls for it. To the extent that this is a build discussion at all, the matter boils down to whether it's better to slot EF in tab by default, and thusly have maximum uptime on Singularity, or whether it's better to have maybe 10-15% fewer Singularities (because, for example, you've tab-slotted Thaumaturge-empowered Conduit instead) in favor of better control/damage otherwise.
That's it. That's the big source of build disagreement. This is not a matter of one side being slick and informed and high-end and uber-guilded, and the other playing clueless, goofy, off-the-wall RP builds.
All of that is only scarcely even relevant to the original point of contention here, though. We were talking about the usefulness of AS itself relative to other dailies. And on that score, near as I can tell, scarcely anyone really disagrees.
I agree with you.
Still this thread isn't about builds it's about whether or not a CW should use Arcane Singularity over damaging frost dailies in control situations.
I'm sorry, I got confused with your posting about that the Thaumaturge build is inferior to "your" build--which, I suppose, is based on the Renegade paragon feat tree. But as I was saying in my first paragraph in this posting: using Arcane Singularity is not limited to any build.
And just to clear something up: I'm not saying that you should not use Arcane Singularity. But to maximize control, DPS and help out your group, you should accompany Arcane Singularity with Conduit of Ice, Steal Time and Icy Terrain!
You have me all wrong. I don't believe any build to be, "My build," aside from meaning that it is the build that I'm using.
Those feats I mentioned synergize perfectly with Arcane Singularity and Shield Pulse, which I had already stated in a prior post.
I disagree on the use of CoI and Icy Terrain. I prefer to use RoE and Steal time along with my Shield and EF Mastery. There's usually one tough mob in a pack for me to put RoE on.
Very well, agree to disagree. Apparently either we're playing two different games, or somehow your Singularity is different than mine and has the ability to suspend all attacks, frontal, cleaves, AoE circles/Cones, and any lingering AoEs that still do damage even after the mobs is sucked in. Many of us noobs actually still have to teleport and move out of reds. Many of us noobs often run T2s without GFs/GWFs.
I am available on Dragon any time, if you care to show me this amazing cycle of insane dps with EF+Sing+Shield. I have had the pleasure of running with a few CWs in this forum, some of which have their own threads/specs/guides. I am not challenging you. It is purely for educational purposes, much of which would be for my benefit since you seem to have it all figured out.
The Shield Pulse is what stops the attacks from mobs while Singularity is charging to burst. Also, Steal time. Or, SotEA. - For my rotation.
I think the mobs dazed cannot attack. I prefer Singularity over Oppressive Force though
Red
Cafè Crêpe•Control Wizard
Only does more damage considering the HV bug. arcane singularity in many cases will do more damage because it will maximise the effectiveness of shield and other aoe spells (conduit for example). reducing the downtime/waiting time needed to use these spells again.
Oppressive force is still great though, I love using it in spellplague final phase to just kill all the zombies in a handful of seconds.
but specialising around one spell is rather silly. Speed > Damage. Not that you really can, because our feats are rather flexible (apart from the +aoe ones). Im one of those people who think single target damage is more important than aoe damage anyway, you kill bosses far more often than having to kill trash. And the feats/enchants you can take instead of +aoe only will benefit both instead of just one.
If you want to be the most efficient CW ever, you need to be able to be a pro clicker and be able to switch spells on the fly.
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Could you vets explain the best timing for this? Do you pop Shield before mobs get sucked up in the black hole? Do you cast Steal Time right as the black hole is bursting? Not being sarcastic...I really do want advice on the best way to do this.
I am a brand new level 60 CW. Just bought 3 pieces of HV set last nite. Rather than start a new thread, I thought it best to ask this question here.
You pop shield before mobs get sucked in so that the knocking off of the mobs is compensated by singularity scooping them up and placing them in the desired position. Something Oppressive Force cannot do.
If you are moderately geared (11k gs) and very experienced, you should technically have no time to cast Steal Time since you should be in almost endless Arcane Singularity/Shield Bump cycle but casting Steal Time is a good idea right after the bubble burst. Keep in mind to remember the timing so you can have the Steal Time effect coincide right after the short daze effect of Singularity wears off. Keep playing, have experience and you will get the timing of all these spells. I would suggest putting Entangling Force on tab because as the mobs get killed and you need more AP for the current/next encounter, that will be very useful for gaining AP. The last skill depends on your build/preference. Ray of Enfeeblement, Conduit of Ice and Icy Terrain are good choice. That last skill/s should only be used if there is a downtime.
High Vizier is a very very good set, if not the best set for CW. Try to get the 4th piece ASAP.
I like your part on "not letting people tell you what to do". Some people out there are just out to boss people around, while others do offer contructive insights to better synergy in a dungeon run, for instance. How a character plays is entirely of his/her own choice. I have seen DPS clerics that outdo mages, i have seen guardian fighters thrash rogues in damage, so control wizard is versatile ~ a DPS, a controller, a hybrid... its our own choice.
I have done some reading and experimenting and 5 respecs so far, and I can safely say that ALL the skills, and dailies each have their own uses (for CW in my case), none are actually thrash. Singularity is very group friendly, but so can oppressive. The latter works faster, in a more urgent situation, or in a smaller battlefield where theres no where you can drag mobs. Maelstrom~ don't forget the damage/control immunity that comes with it..and the high damage, despite people condemning it for being "small area".
Bottom line ~ yeah, anyone can do things that annoy the group: selfish wizards repelling mobs to inaccessible parts out of reach of the melees, clerics bouncing nice tight mobs with their divine sunbursts etc. *BE SURE OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING, AND DON'T LET OTHERS SWAY/CONTROL YOUR GAMING EXPERIENCE.
You make a very good point. The potential for group synergy is no doubt one of the best! I myself adopted it as an endgame daily, and NOT because it is needed to drag mobs off edges. No arguments there, rashylewizz. However, perhaps if you run in dungeons often enough, you will sense a whole new element in the epic scene ~ competitive atmosphere. Unless you are playing in a guild or with friends, I can sense people - tricksters, GWFs, GFs, wizards and even the occasional cleric - all trying to outdo one another. You see people rushing into the next scene ahead of others just to have a headstart. The point i am trying to make here is: group synergy is quite idealistic here... if, say, the wizard is out to be competitive, is Singularity still an ideal choice? i'd say no (and no to ice storm also, of course, since it scatters mobs). Damage is way too low, and for selfish wizards, it "benefits" the rest of the team. Its the sad truth, but i experience such scenarios all the time
Works for you, but probably not for other classes, bro. As a CW myself, if I have a co-CW who does this, I get VERY annoyed. It screws up everyone's AoEs and will significantly lower the overall DPS of the team. They are either ignorant, oblivious to group dynamics or plain selfish (hoping to do more personal damage to outperform others also by inconveniencing others). In a dungeon, some people see a team fighting the boss, but also, some see a battlefield with 4 other rivals. Unless its a coup de grace, or it knocks mobs off edges, Ice storm is a BAD BAD idea.
When I try to outdo my team-mates, it's not to diminish them - it's to try and squeeze out the most out of me and make sure I'm the most useful I can be to my team.
Arcane Singularity wasn't meant to work by itself so stop telling people that it "sucks by itself". That is irrelevant. Are you also going to start telling people that healing powers suck because you can't kill monsters with them? LOL.
It's one thing to be a wizard in a team that does not need more control. If that's the case then feel free to slot whatever the hell you want because in the end it's all just a DPS race. This applies to most normal dungeons, most T1s, some T2s if you have a good team/good gear and just about everything if your a f***ing exploiter. It's a completely different story when you are actually expected to control mobs. Ever since the patch I've been forced to team up so many wizards who can't even handle shutting down just a handful of non-normal mobs, and they probably thought they were doing "alright' because of idiotic "be whatever you can be" advice from threads like this one. You know what's a decent CW? Someone who can easily shut down around 6+ non-normal mobs. Good CWs can easily handle at least twice as many mobs as that or a small group + a semi-boss.
Whether you are good CW or not has really nothing to do with your effing DPS since your DPS affected more by GEAR than SKILL. Give even a pure control wiz good armor pen/tenebs/plaguefire/whatever and just like that you're suddenly topping DPS charts.
Ahh, I thought that was you. the irritating second CW in FH. There is no excuse to use IS in a group dungeon, there is always a better tool that doesn't interfere with everyone else. There is nothing worse than another CW hamstringing you in a dungeon. You ar pulling your rotation setting up the mobs to burn down, you have them lined up sudden storm about to blaze through them, when Ice Storm is cast and you hit one archer, wtf. Then when your Steal Time is being cast IS hits and no mobs are there to fill your AP. A CW should know better, but not all do. Explain this to me though, if IS is so great for dmg how come you end up 3rd in damage on the charts after me and TR.
"Singularity won't do much?" How about using Arcane Singularity to reposition all the Mind Flayers away from the Thoon Hulks so your group doesn't get randomly wiped by a hulk vacuum + mind flayer mind blast combo? That way you can actually keep the mind flayers busy while every other person with significantly better single-target DPS can work on killing off/disabling the Thoon Hulk in peace.