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  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    mconosrep wrote: »
    TLDR: The objections given don't hold up, and this is still the easiest solution I have seen.

    Easier fix: a progression bar based on damage, just to prevent bosses and adds suicide. You have to actively do something to progress, and tools are already in game (the scoreboard). You have to do x damage to make the final boss spawn. It's easier to understand and you don't get tricked, once you get your damage score, do whatever you want to do.
  • vrtesseractvrtesseract Member Posts: 631 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    im betting its because people are coming back for faywild and trying to sell all their old stuff to save up for faywild stuff

    youll also notice the conversion rate between ad and zen fluxtuates similar to prices whenever there is a double ad weekend prices go up,

    also a lot of people have been loading their zen into chance prof bags lowering a lot of AH goods as people are spending money on chance objects to get pet rather than finished goods.

    after faywild comes out youll notice a huge upswing in prices/zen as the people with 600kad start buying up stuff that was added via the chance bags combined with the fact the pet will no longer be in bags.
  • notmuchleftnotmuchleft Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Two words: Dragon Eggs
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  • degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I, for one, love deflation. Imagine what PVP would look like if everyone had equivalent gear?

    A crazy, crazy thought. Keep prices plummeting.
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  • xcom43xcom43 Member Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    But still two things that i would like to see in this game.

    One fix the freaking rubber banding issue.

    And two lower the cost on AD on some of the items.I am not saying to lower all of them just some.
    The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.
  • enneaennea Member Posts: 41
    edited August 2013
    As some have noticed, the games economy is deflating. Whether that is good or bad, deflation will always destroy the entire games economy in the long run. Why is this happening?

    Now before we go into that lets quickly identify the current state of economy. Most T2 sets are now able to be bought for under 10k a piece, with the best sets at only 150-300k. This is in fact the most pressing issue and part of the reason why Dev's have wanted to introduce Bind On Pickup. When new players can buy the best gear for under 50k ad, or for only 1.2mil ad which is under a 100 dollars real life money, Your economy is in trouble as player goals are too easily reached.

    Bots and enchantment prices. In my opinion , bots are the only things keeping enchantment prices in check as lets be honest, needing roughly 450k pieces of enchantment is blatantly a stupid sink and a flawed system, that aside, besides enchantment prices, Bots are siphoning out the economy AD through the auction house cut. Most bots do not put back into the economy but encourage spending, meaning perishable items does not return and the ad trade goes one way, OUT. If you cannot understand this, just think of it this way, a player buys item, but also does daily/dungeon/etc to sell items and make ad. A bot sells items but never buys. So new AD does not get shared but gets filtered mainly into a stockpile , a bottleneck per se until a real life player buys the AD with RL cash.

    Effectively, New ad introduced into the game are only through dailies and leadership. BUT the average player does not finish both the pvp / foundry / dungeon daily everyday. Thus at best, the average player gains roughly 2k (praying) + 4k + lets average 2k for foundry and Dreadvault dungeon per day. SO only 8k through quest, then unless you have high leadership, lets increase the daily gain to 10k daily.

    Now lets go back to why the economy is deflating. In simple terms, The average player makes 10k new ad a day, However even though say 2k players log on a day, and new 20 million ad is introduced, ALMOST all that ad is going into the AH cut fees , or enchant removal/ zen store / keys / pets. Meaning there is negative inflation. Now couple that with a badly bid/undercut/snipe AH system , what you have is players are unable to sell goods that deserve a premium price, as NOONE has any AD , and everything gets undercut. But yet items which deserve to have premium prices, are unable to be sold as there is also not enough new players adding to the pool of fresh AD , thus deflation is still occuring. Give it another 2 months, and your games economy will thus be dead.

    TLDR: Economy is failing not just because of supply and demand. The average player makes 10k ad, almost all are being siphoned out but games badly designed cash shop agenda ( zen store/ unbinding runes/ mount upgrades/ pets and STEEP AH cut) T2 sets cost less than 20k for 4 pieces, and the most premium sets can be bought at less than 100 real life dollars. effectively, in 2 months time, baring supply and demand, the games economy will be dead.

    BTW. Gift of Tymora was exploited like mad by many players doing foundry farming, and yet that huge surplus of AD has not even combated the steep deflation rate. Barring Crafted shirt/pants; CN / T2 gear are now at 300k and going down. Effectively Cryptics main source of income which is about 5 % of the pop which spends money, will soon have NO MORE REASON TO SPEND RL MONEY. add in decreasing player base, you have a soon to be non profitable business model.
  • tharsoniusvbtharsoniusvb Member Posts: 43
    edited August 2013
    There are many reasons for the collapsing economy, most of them were already mentioned:

    - Holiday season - a big chunk of players with the means to buy is gone for a while.

    - Dungeon exploits - makes it very easy and fast to get loot and so even some T2 set pieces are worth nothing. On top, the exploits make good gear obsolete, nobody needs good gear to do T2 dungeons, you only have to know how to cheat. And the few that don't want to cheat were either lucky to find likeminded friends or they left (I guess many did) and so more potential customers are gone.

    - Dungeons give way too much loot - the dd chest is overkill, especially combined with exploits. An epic item guaranteed, plus maybe one or two drops from the bosses is way too much. Epic items are so common, there are hardly any goals left to work towards.
    Epic items should imho be removed from the dd chest, maybe be replaced with a few ad or something else. Boss drops should be it. Maybe adjust them in quality (not in number). And yes, that would mean that you will do some dungeons and get hardly anything but when you look at the prices of a belt you might find in Karrundax now, it won't be much of a loss. And maybe over time purple stuff would have the value it should have.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    It is not collapsing! It is called stabilization.

    Example - People put up refugees (leadership resource) for like 5k. They are not worth 100.

    Example - People put up a helm for 1.2mil when it is the only one listed. Once more helms get listed the prices become more reasonable.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    There are many reasons for the collapsing economy, most of them were already mentioned:

    - Holiday season - a big chunk of players with the means to buy is gone for a while.

    - Dungeon exploits - makes it very easy and fast to get loot and so even some T2 set pieces are worth nothing. On top, the exploits make good gear obsolete, nobody needs good gear to do T2 dungeons, you only have to know how to cheat. And the few that don't want to cheat were either lucky to find likeminded friends or they left (I guess many did) and so more potential customers are gone.

    - Dungeons give way too much loot - the dd chest is overkill, especially combined with exploits. An epic item guaranteed, plus maybe one or two drops from the bosses is way too much. Epic items are so common, there are hardly any goals left to work towards.
    Epic items should imho be removed from the dd chest, maybe be replaced with a few ad or something else. Boss drops should be it. Maybe adjust them in quality (not in number). And yes, that would mean that you will do some dungeons and get hardly anything but when you look at the prices of a belt you might find in Karrundax now, it won't be much of a loss. And maybe over time purple stuff would have the value it should have.

    You are out of your mind. RNG would kill this game then. How would you like to run a bunch of dungeons and get ZERO loot? Yeah RNG is related to Karma... both of em are (female dogs).
  • brendan03usbrendan03us Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    You are out of your mind. RNG would kill this game then. How would you like to run a bunch of dungeons and get ZERO loot? Yeah RNG is related to Karma... both of em are (female dogs).

    I agree -- no-one likes a pure RNG system like the one vanilla WoW had. People at the very least would want a token system so that at least they are working toward an eventually guaranteed goal.

    The problem is multifaceted. Having endgame gear be BOE has resulted in a flood of items on the AH, which leads to oversupply and depressed prices for the best gear in the game. It's a supply issue, I think. The stuff that is in short supply (tippity top enchants, very rare pets, etc.) have very high prices in the AH, as one would expect due to the small supply of them. If they were to nerf the supply of T2s by making some of them BOP (I know that's already been considered and nixed, but just in theory), this would cut supply, but really would cut it to zero -- instead of a restricted supply, which would boost prices, you would have no supply, and therefore no market at ll for these items because they would not be sellable. So it's not really a fix (and is also unattractive to PWE because of the potential impact on Zen sales which are motivated by people wanting to buy T2/CN gear). You would still have the rest of the items on the AH in oversupply, with lowish prices.
  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 1
    edited August 2013
    estopectro wrote: »
    Someone else has noticed a sharp decline in the overall price of virtually all items? An example I give is elegant shirt GWF 3 days cost almost 10k today is costing 4k.

    Another thing I have noticed is that it is much more difficult to sell any item currently over 3 days ago. (Same place as you lower the price of AH).

    I know the trade gradually becomes saturated, but I also expect this gradual transition, but from what I could see happening is a drastic change in the economy in such a short time.

    And I wonder why that is? All playes already have all the items? The working population is decreasing? All are guarding AD for expansion? Speculation trade?

    Hasn't been my experience at all. Everything I put into the AH has sold in the same day. Perhaps people need to stop and look at how ridiculous their prices are before posting?
  • alphatapiralphatapir Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Dungeons give way too much loot - the dd chest is overkill, especially combined with exploits. An epic item guaranteed, plus maybe one or two drops from the bosses is way too much.

    Loot-quota is nerfed constantly. Purple items - even those off-class - are more and more BoP. Tell me why I should run a dungeon. For what reason? The loot is not only useless, it is also worthless (try selling lvl60 green on AH). Dungeons drop about one or two ID-scrolls for me per run vs ~10 green. To ID all items I would have to buy 8 ID-S for 125 from AD-store or ~100 off AH. Now thats a "win". Add about 1 or 2 enchs I get from "need" rolls. Ever sold Rank 4 Encs on AH? REALLY? I honestly envy you. Boss-drop on non DD is 1 item which is either "can be used by everybody" (chance of 1 in 5 to get it by roll vs. need), my class (chance of 1 in number of partymembers in my class) or a roll vs greed that auto-fails if any one rolls need. So in the end i have (roughly) a chance of 1 in 5 to get a "reward". If that "reward" is BoP I can sell it for ... how much? 1.5 gold on average? Now THAT's a reason to spend an hour with people not knowing what they are doing (let alone what they SHOULD be doing), complaining about others being OP and trying to be the wise guy on campus and calling you an idiot because you know the deal (and I am not talking about "the run" in GG T1 or the exploits in CN / Kar / SP etc) only to beg you for pots and kits two minutes later because they "forgot" to get some at the shop. You are really trying to tell me that there is too much loot? Have you ever played real D&D? Pen&Paper? Have a look at the loot tables in the MH2 or the FF. Loot in this mmo"rp"g is a joke and a bad one, too. (hint: remember the question why dungeon queues take so long to trigger?) The "reward" factor of NW in it's current state is constantly dwindling away: Classes get nerfed, loot is nerfed, AD-income is nerfed, monsters are nerfed... currently it's a game that doesn't root on reward but instead on "take it away from them". Gaming is all about satisfaction. If the game doesn't satisfy players will turn their backs on it. But aside from that I'm still surprised by how "taking away" is considered a "reward" here.
  • sasheriasasheria Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    to me, the "proper way" (this is my personal opinion and outlook on how loot should be in THIS game)

    is that you run a dungeon and you get a token for a boss and all clear token (for kill all bosses in order)
    the token can be traded for ANY BoE epic (that way can preserve the AH market) Items can varies from 3-5 tokens per piece.
    The all clear token can be traded for higher level BoP epic or Enhancement (epic level of course)
    All Clearn token can also be traded for rare mount (higher token required) that can be BoE (again for AH market)

    This can make season vet to run higher level dungeon and clearing it for AH items.

    This doesn't solve the "pay to win in AH" but I don't have a solution for that unless we change the system to make it all BoP with token system (simlar to above but make it all BoP instead of BoE)
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  • brendan03usbrendan03us Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    sasheria wrote: »
    to me, the "proper way" (this is my personal opinion and outlook on how loot should be in THIS game)

    is that you run a dungeon and you get a token for a boss and all clear token (for kill all bosses in order)
    the token can be traded for ANY BoE epic (that way can preserve the AH market) Items can varies from 3-5 tokens per piece.
    The all clear token can be traded for higher level BoP epic or Enhancement (epic level of course)
    All Clearn token can also be traded for rare mount (higher token required) that can be BoE (again for AH market)

    This can make season vet to run higher level dungeon and clearing it for AH items.

    This doesn't solve the "pay to win in AH" but I don't have a solution for that unless we change the system to make it all BoP with token system (simlar to above but make it all BoP instead of BoE)

    Something like that would be good, I think.

    The game will never completely eliminate P2W, it's always a part of PWE games, but I think the above approach or something like it would encourage players to play the game rather than game the game.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    sasheria wrote: »
    to me, the "proper way" (this is my personal opinion and outlook on how loot should be in THIS game)

    is that you run a dungeon and you get a token for a boss and all clear token (for kill all bosses in order)
    the token can be traded for ANY BoE epic (that way can preserve the AH market) Items can varies from 3-5 tokens per piece.
    The all clear token can be traded for higher level BoP epic or Enhancement (epic level of course)
    All Clearn token can also be traded for rare mount (higher token required) that can be BoE (again for AH market)

    This can make season vet to run higher level dungeon and clearing it for AH items.

    This doesn't solve the "pay to win in AH" but I don't have a solution for that unless we change the system to make it all BoP with token system (simlar to above but make it all BoP instead of BoE)

    No. You kill the market and you make the runs boring seeing as you won't get that HOLY **** I just got ****!!!

    A better way is to implement salvaging where you get materials from epics that can be used in crafting.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Well it looks like they're moving towards a token/reputation system, like in STO. You get the best gear, which is BoP, with tokens, there are hard caps and time gating, so you might do 150 dungeons runs in one day, you won't get your gear faster. You can't sell it, you don't even need to look for exploits - no problem and no drama in groups because a 12yo wants to skip everything. I guess it's not a bad solution, provided we get enough new ways to earn resources to unlock this gear, which is quite expensive atm. Getting ADs with dailies/skirmishes only would put an end to this.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Well it looks like they're moving towards a token/reputation system, like in STO. You get the best gear, which is BoP, with tokens, there are hard caps and time gating, so you might do 150 dungeons runs in one day, you won't get your gear faster. You can't sell it, you don't even need to look for exploits - no problem and no drama in groups because a 12yo wants to skip everything. I guess it's not a bad solution, provided we get enough new ways to earn resources to unlock this gear, which is quite expensive atm. Getting ADs with dailies/skirmishes only would put an end to this.

    It would also end the game.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    It would also end the game.

    No, not if they add more dailies.
  • sasheriasasheria Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    It would also end the game.

    How would it end the game? I have play many mmo and this is one of the few that end game equipment are sold on AH (other games that are F2P usually have Pay to win where you CAN buy epic directly)

    This will be more in line with other games and allow players to get the gear they want with play time instead of going with RNG method where you can "hope" to get a drop after X runs (A LA WoW style but even WoW start going with some Token method)
    To grow old is inevitable, to grow up is optional.
    Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    sasheria wrote: »
    How would it end the game? I have play many mmo and this is one of the few that end game equipment are sold on AH (other games that are F2P usually have Pay to win where you CAN buy epic directly)

    This will be more in line with other games and allow players to get the gear they want with play time instead of going with RNG method where you can "hope" to get a drop after X runs (A LA WoW style but even WoW start going with some Token method)

    Read what I highlighted then read my response. AD only thru daily/invoke/skirmish is suicide. You would be herding people to the zen shop via the wallet instead of playtime.
    diogene0 wrote: »
    No, not if they add more dailies.

    So now we have to play all day to make some AD to purchase things?
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    So now we have to play all day to make some AD to purchase things?

    Of course not, you can also take your time, but if all you can do is caricatural answers, i'm out.
  • digesthisicknessdigesthisickness Member Posts: 169 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    alphatapir wrote: »
    Loot-quota is nerfed constantly. Purple items - even those off-class - are more and more BoP. Tell me why I should run a dungeon. For what reason? The loot is not only useless, it is also worthless (try selling lvl60 green on AH). Dungeons drop about one or two ID-scrolls for me per run vs ~10 green. To ID all items I would have to buy 8 ID-S for 125 from AD-store or ~100 off AH. Now thats a "win". Add about 1 or 2 enchs I get from "need" rolls. Ever sold Rank 4 Encs on AH? REALLY? I honestly envy you. Boss-drop on non DD is 1 item which is either "can be used by everybody" (chance of 1 in 5 to get it by roll vs. need), my class (chance of 1 in number of partymembers in my class) or a roll vs greed that auto-fails if any one rolls need. So in the end i have (roughly) a chance of 1 in 5 to get a "reward". If that "reward" is BoP I can sell it for ... how much? 1.5 gold on average? Now THAT's a reason to spend an hour with people not knowing what they are doing (let alone what they SHOULD be doing), complaining about others being OP and trying to be the wise guy on campus and calling you an idiot because you know the deal (and I am not talking about "the run" in GG T1 or the exploits in CN / Kar / SP etc) only to beg you for pots and kits two minutes later because they "forgot" to get some at the shop. You are really trying to tell me that there is too much loot? Have you ever played real D&D? Pen&Paper? Have a look at the loot tables in the MH2 or the FF. Loot in this mmo"rp"g is a joke and a bad one, too. (hint: remember the question why dungeon queues take so long to trigger?) The "reward" factor of NW in it's current state is constantly dwindling away: Classes get nerfed, loot is nerfed, AD-income is nerfed, monsters are nerfed... currently it's a game that doesn't root on reward but instead on "take it away from them". Gaming is all about satisfaction. If the game doesn't satisfy players will turn their backs on it. But aside from that I'm still surprised by how "taking away" is considered a "reward" here.

    Quoted for Truth.

    Funny how they knew how to keep me (players) playing while leveling, but turned completely away from that working system at the end. While leveling, I'd pick up on each level a few locked items I knew would give me more power and more joy if I kept playing a little longer. It was consistent, and it was FUN. It worked and worked beautifully. Get to the dungeons, especially the epics, and everything turns around.
  • goddessuniquegoddessunique Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    tarmalen wrote: »
    So now we have to play all day to make some AD to purchase things?

    That's the whole point, either spend all day tryna earn enough ad to buy something of worth or buy zen. :cool:
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  • tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Of course not, you can also take your time, but if all you can do is caricatural answers, i'm out.

    So then...don't play all day and take weeks to accrue enough AD to purchase something or play all day to accumulate enough AD to purchase something. Which is it?

    Regardless...I am out. Work day is over and it's time for a frosty one before logging in and running dungeons.

    And as a parting gift....don't jump in the cesspool if you don't want to get dirty.
  • sasheriasasheria Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    The thing is that I am still "surprise" that AD was used in the AH market. Usually AD are used in personal items and upgrades similar to STO since it was made by the same company. AD is same as Refined Dilithium Crystals. STO is doing very well and the market (AH) is robust.

    It is easy to say "doom and gloom" but other MMO has gone the same path and still doing pretty well.
    To grow old is inevitable, to grow up is optional.
    Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
  • veruganverugan Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 100
    edited August 2013
    I think we're still feeling the impact from the Gift of Tymora event. I know I personally grinded the heck out of it and got 30 eggs, plus a ton of the blue crystals and other mats...
  • lisaranawaylisaranaway Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    We have yet to feel the full effect of the change to Glory-bought items. It's going to hurt everyone, including the PVE players who depended on the potions and injury kits posted for sale on the AH. The value of gold is going to rise dramatically. When you have to farm npc's to get green items, to sell for gold, to get pots to survive in dungeons..... ****, that sounds like a lot of work for something that is supposed to be "entertainment".
  • brendan03usbrendan03us Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    We have yet to feel the full effect of the change to Glory-bought items. It's going to hurt everyone, including the PVE players who depended on the potions and injury kits posted for sale on the AH. The value of gold is going to rise dramatically. When you have to farm npc's to get green items, to sell for gold, to get pots to survive in dungeons..... ****, that sounds like a lot of work for something that is supposed to be "entertainment".

    Well, Gold is also about to get more useful with the expansion. Pretty much every unlock requires some gold, usually 5-10g if I am remembering correctly from Mimic, sometimes more. This is done to unlock the areas, dungeons, and upgrades once you have run sufficient daily quests to get the materials that re *also* required for the unlocks. Sharandar is a pretty significant gold sink when you add it all up.
  • pfft2pfft2 Member Posts: 301 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Well, Gold is also about to get more useful with the expansion. Pretty much every unlock requires some gold, usually 5-10g if I am remembering correctly from Mimic, sometimes more. This is done to unlock the areas, dungeons, and upgrades once you have run sufficient daily quests to get the materials that re *also* required for the unlocks. Sharandar is a pretty significant gold sink when you add it all up.

    Probably designed to offset the additional gold that players will create running the new daily solo quests.
  • brendan03usbrendan03us Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    pfft2 wrote: »
    Probably designed to offset the additional gold that players will create running the new daily solo quests.

    In part, but it's also a bit of a gold grind and a gold sink. I've tested some of the dailies and the drops aren't really netting *that* much gold. I think it's more of an additional timer mechanic to slow progression on another vector -- gold acquisition.

    I don't have any issues with this, because the game was lacking gold sinks anyway other than potions and kits, but it is a pretty significant gold sink taken altogether.
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