t3hwh173f0xMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
The problem is not that they are p2w, because as stated they can be acquired without paying. The problem is that they are extremely OP and when people see TRs one-hitting them or GFs 3-shot hackey-sacking them or GWFs running around from node to node being unkillable and 3-shot stun lock people, people come to forums and say that classes need to be nerfed. It isn't the classes that need a nerf, it's the **** tenenbrous enchantments and people won't realize that until we get rid of them.
As stated previously when you get a ridiculous offensive bonus for stacking defensive stats then something is terribly broken.
Simple fix, make tenebrous enchants work like armor enchantments or weapon enchantments. And with this I mean they can't be stacked. Only one for character.
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kantazo1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Anyone who does not see that Tenes are pay 2 win in the finest most glorious form, and OP as all hell in pvp is either Naive, a Liar, or using them. The added cool down may have helped but does not function correctly anyway.
They should be limited to 1 and one only end of story. Yeah! So what if I have to de-socket some stuff.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited August 2013
As someone who uses and recommends using them in every available offense slot, it's easy to see how overpowered they are. For every build for every toon, they are by far the most powerful option to slot in every place available. To not do so is gimping your character's DPS.
4 million or more for enchants and to be of any % of difference you need 5 or 6 so that means 20 to 24 million AD and it is not p2w ha lol
Anyone paying that kind of money for GT's is in the wrong. Most everyone that has them bought them early in open beta when you could get greaters for 200k. Then everyone else found out that they were best in slot for pvp and the prices went through the roof overnight. I have 5 greaters and don't see myself ever getting a 6th or 7th.
Fine for now. They are the Pee2Won aspect every F2Pmmo has. And they're not prohibitly expensive at this point.
What we have to look out for, is things like this though, that give a player ever increasing power. Too many different types of these items, or too powerful effects are bad for all. Right now its fine. But don't let creeping normalcy hit us year and half down the road. When suddenly there are 6 diff enchants with power like the tene, 3 mounts that shoot rockets off them, and etc etc. And then we wonder where they all came from. But for now I voted fine. My vote may change depending on the direction PWE intends to go with things like this.
Fine for now. They are the Pee2Won aspect every F2Pmmo has.
Although this is an already foolishly fatalistic approach to giving up on a problem instead of solving it, the real problem with these enchants isn't even that they're P2W - it's that they're so vastly more powerful than every other option in slot, it reduces character development and equipment choices down to 2 options: use Tenebrous at every opportunity in every slot, or be inferior.
I don't see it as problem at this point. It's going to be a potential problem 1 year down the road, if they continually add more enchants with its power or greater though. If they leave it as the only OP lockbox enchant, then 1 year everyone will have them cept new players. But if they add more then, players will continuously have to grind them out.
This is also mostly for PVP. PVE from what I understand they aren't as OP. And other enchants are better for equipping. So it reduces character development in PVP maybe, not so much PVE.
Although this is an already foolishly fatalistic approach to giving up on a problem instead of solving it, the real problem with these enchants isn't even that they're P2W - it's that they're so vastly more powerful than every other option in slot, it reduces character development and equipment choices down to 2 options: use Tenebrous at every opportunity in every slot, or be inferior.
Also the view you're taking is shortsighted. My reply was about long term ramifications of these types of enchants.
The issue with them being P2W, if PWE goes the direction Ive seen every other F2PMMO do, and if you really think about how F2P mmos generate a lot of revenue, you'd understand. You will see more of these In lockboxes. You will see more with more powerful effects. This is what is worrisome.
As of right now they may be BIS for enchant slots for pvp. But you already have BIS gear, which will measurably/ you can feel it when you play with it, increase power. And if you wanna play the BIS game, the gear variation reduces character development and equipment choices. Why run an inferior gear set?
What you want to ask for now, is indirectly what you said it isn't about. Reducing the power of tenebrous, is reducing the P2W, because they come straight outta lockboxes. And you'd hope that any enchants outta boxes released after would also be nerfed in power. Or were sitting back at square 1.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited August 2013
If these enchants get nerfed, it won't be just for PvP balance - but it will be because the PvPers were the first to figure out how much more effective these are at increasing your damage output than any other offense slot option. Saying that these are only an issue in PvP is revealing how little you have witnessed of how brokenly powerful these are. Whether you are in PvP or PvE, if you are using anything besides Tenebrous in your offense slots, you are gimping your DPS. The soft and hard caps for every other relevant stat you could possibly slot there are easily achieved through your gear and your ioun stone's gear.
What about option 4 have ten enchants drop in faye-wild dungeons. if the entire argument is the only way to get them is to pay money, then the obvious solution is.. give them a chance to drop for "Free" though its not really free its for grinding top level dungeons. and if you don't want to do that cause your a PVPer you still have to buy them with AD or zen from AH. Thus it solves the argument of that they don't drop... but wont solve the problem YOU have. Which is why it appeals to me.
The point of FTP games is that they sell things for ad/zen so people don't have to sub. what makes this game different from every other ftp game is the auction-house also runs on ad so you can make the ad without spending any real money by selling stuff that you get.
lockboxes are a key part of a free to play market cause it plays off the gambling addiction. and tenebrous takes the pound of flesh from people who typically don't wish to pony up for this gamewith cash OR grind for goods to sell aka work for it.
Ive actually noticed often the things found in lockboxes sell for cheaper than top end grinding goods or zen-store items just because so many people are trying to fund keys to get what they "Want". Compare the prices of phaeroas to the zen-store bird as a basic example.
If YOU, you mean me. No I don't have this problem with, it's why I voted it's fine (again at this point, depending on what direction PWE goes with it will sway my opinion.
But Id be all for them dropping ingame instances etc. Then the whole p2w considering these are moot.
FYI - I find this game the easiest out of all F2Pmmos, to actually farm/convert into CS currency. There are bunch of factors to that, including decent/large population, game relatively new (prices haven't inflated out of control yet), game not having all that much CS items (yet), and the way the AH functions. I just don't want to see it go down that road, Ive seen every other f2pmmo go.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
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pherlanie1Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited August 2013
guys in all the online games there are people who are weak and there are people who are strong... if u are on weaker side push ur self to make ur character the best that it can be... and if u are crying cuz of the tenebrous "stop playing this game!!!" cuz u dont know how to survive. just play pacman or galaxy!
Keep in mind i haven't even played NW yet! IMO, only fluff items should be obtainable via any real world currency. Any item that gives a player an edge over other players should only be obtainable via drop(s). Ofcourse there's a way to obtain the item(s) without real currency, but it's still lame (speaking in an MMO sense) that a toon can instantly have an OP item by opening their pocket book.
The new trend of "F2P" MMOs are killing the genre imo!
Edit: Also, any OP proc shouldn't stack. I don't even need to play the **** game to throw that one out there.
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mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
@Pherlanie. Your comments don't help the conversation. Saying people are crying over this is just childish on your part. The main reason I think the Devs should look at making some changes to this is that it is in fact broken. There really isn't any argument that can be made to say otherwise. People that use them agree to that.
What is happening and will continue to happen is that people new to the game will get decimated in pvp matches and any potential revenue for Cryptic/PW will be gone. I don't understand how they don't recognize how the current game is hurting their future growth.
As has been posted in many different posts, some simple fixes will at least bring the game back into balance and make it more enjoyable. This in turn means $$. When people are happy, they spend money.
The people that say everyone is "crying" or "L2play" along with "Cryptic doesn't care about PvP" are only looking out for themselves and aren't contributing in any way to the future of this game.
@The people who say they cant remove them: Cryptic/PWE can do whatever they like, just like it says in the ToS. Many companies have done so with things that people have spent alot of RL/in-game currency on. D3 is a prime example, they nerfed haste to the ground since it was way over the top. People moaned and whined, Blizzard didnt care.
Tene should atleast be removed from PvP, infact all PvE obtained gear should be removed. 3 PvP sets should be released for each class, defensive, hybrid and offensive with weapons, accessories, ehchants and all. This would balance PvP, they should also split skills into PvP/PvE versions. Not like its gonna happen, since PWE and Cryptic just dont care enough.
Aslong as there are pay to win sides in a game, it will be unbalanced. In PvE it doesnt matter, but in PvP it matters alot. GW2 among others did it right with their Real Money shop, vanity things and vanity things only. Everything else is obtained by playing the game. But in NW with the insane prices and a currency you cant really grind, it becomes a second job if you dont feel like spending real cash on things. Too many currencies and the exchange rate is so silly it hurts everytime I look at the zen exchange.
Atleast GW2 and others have 1 currency in game + badges and then they have one currency you can either buy for gold or RL money. Plus gold can be farmed at a good pace, not like the 24k per day cap they have in NW. And the currency you can buy doesnt try to rob you of your arms and legs.
doesnt bother me too much, but they should change it. currently they are only good in pvp but suck in PvE. perhaps changing it to a dot would be better and remove the cooldown, (say stacks up to 5 times and more applications extend it, or something like that.
doesnt bother me too much, but they should change it. currently they are only good in pvp but suck in PvE. perhaps changing it to a dot would be better and remove the cooldown, (say stacks up to 5 times and more applications extend it, or something like that.
Or perhaps split the damage into an initial burst and a DOT?
I chose nerf them heavily. I don't actually want to nerf the enchant itself just how many a character can use. 1-2 would be fine, 6% of current HP, thats not terrible. But 18% of current HP when you can stack up 38k HP is a little <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, incredibly tanky AND huge burst shouldn't go hand in hand on the same build imo.
Also while they aren't very prevalent right now, once more and more people attain their full build they'll be able to save up and get Tene's for PvP. I can see them becoming a much larger problem in the future.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Keep in mind i haven't even played NW yet! IMO, only fluff items should be obtainable via any real world currency. Any item that gives a player an edge over other players should only be obtainable via drop(s). Ofcourse there's a way to obtain the item(s) without real currency, but it's still lame (speaking in an MMO sense) that a toon can instantly have an OP item by opening their pocket book.
The new trend of "F2P" MMOs are killing the genre imo
Only way forward for the "genre", because S2P MMOs can't retain enough subs to make money consistently other than two (the big momma and EVE, each of which is a special case). F2P is the way of the future.
If you want F2P which is less intrusive try something like PoE. But for PWE MMOs, they are always set up such that you can buy the premium currency with real money, and then use that in game to get great gear. It's a large part of the money pump in the game, from the profit perspective.
If you want the antiquated S2P model, you can find it -- and you know where to look.
Only way forward for the "genre", because S2P MMOs can't retain enough subs to make money consistently other than two (the big momma and EVE, each of which is a special case). F2P is the way of the future.
If you want F2P which is less intrusive try something like PoE. But for PWE MMOs, they are always set up such that you can buy the premium currency with real money, and then use that in game to get great gear. It's a large part of the money pump in the game, from the profit perspective.
If you want the antiquated S2P model, you can find it -- and you know where to look.
I realize f2p games / devs need some sort of income. I don't mind cash shops that sell only fluff items. For me personally though it tends to turn me away from a game when those items can be sold for large amounts of ingame currency, in turn, to buy for example, end game gear. Then there tends to be alot of overly geared bads running around. If I'm to stay "competitive" in either PvE or PvP, I either get rich from cash shop items to buy said gear or I do nothing but grind currency to buy said gear. For me personally, there is no real sense of accomplishment there.
In any case, I'm going to play NW. I'm going to take it slow and pay attention to the lore. In general the game seems like alot of fun.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I realize f2p games / devs need some sort of income. I don't mind cash shops that sell only fluff items. For me personally though it tends to turn me away from a game when those items can be sold for large amounts of ingame currency, in turn, to buy for example, end game gear. Then there tends to be alot of overly geared bads running around. If I'm to stay "competitive" in either PvE or PvP, I either get rich from cash shop items to buy said gear or I do nothing but grind currency to buy said gear. For me personally, there is no real sense of accomplishment there.
In any case, I'm going to play NW. I'm going to take it slow and pay attention to the lore. In general the game seems like alot of fun.
What you say is true, but "fluff" doesn't generate enough income - it really doesn't.
In GW2, the cash shop is fluff but you PAY for GW2 up front. That's B2P. That generates up front income to support the game such that you can have a fluff shop, which generates very modest yet incremental revenue. However, in order to pull that off, you need to generate sales up front, which of course Arena did with all of the hype for 1-2 years prior to launching GW2 (and I am not bashing GW2, I played and enjoyed it, but it was boring after a while as all games are).
In a true F2P game, where you can play for nothing at all, no software cost etc, a fully fluff shop doesn't generate enough revenue to support the game. A game like PoE operates this way, but that's a game that isn't really intended to make a profit, and is more of a stepping-stone for the creators to showcase their abilities.
Comments
As stated previously when you get a ridiculous offensive bonus for stacking defensive stats then something is terribly broken.
They should be limited to 1 and one only end of story. Yeah! So what if I have to de-socket some stuff.
Anyone paying that kind of money for GT's is in the wrong. Most everyone that has them bought them early in open beta when you could get greaters for 200k. Then everyone else found out that they were best in slot for pvp and the prices went through the roof overnight. I have 5 greaters and don't see myself ever getting a 6th or 7th.
What we have to look out for, is things like this though, that give a player ever increasing power. Too many different types of these items, or too powerful effects are bad for all. Right now its fine. But don't let creeping normalcy hit us year and half down the road. When suddenly there are 6 diff enchants with power like the tene, 3 mounts that shoot rockets off them, and etc etc. And then we wonder where they all came from. But for now I voted fine. My vote may change depending on the direction PWE intends to go with things like this.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Although this is an already foolishly fatalistic approach to giving up on a problem instead of solving it, the real problem with these enchants isn't even that they're P2W - it's that they're so vastly more powerful than every other option in slot, it reduces character development and equipment choices down to 2 options: use Tenebrous at every opportunity in every slot, or be inferior.
This is also mostly for PVP. PVE from what I understand they aren't as OP. And other enchants are better for equipping. So it reduces character development in PVP maybe, not so much PVE.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Also the view you're taking is shortsighted. My reply was about long term ramifications of these types of enchants.
The issue with them being P2W, if PWE goes the direction Ive seen every other F2PMMO do, and if you really think about how F2P mmos generate a lot of revenue, you'd understand. You will see more of these In lockboxes. You will see more with more powerful effects. This is what is worrisome.
As of right now they may be BIS for enchant slots for pvp. But you already have BIS gear, which will measurably/ you can feel it when you play with it, increase power. And if you wanna play the BIS game, the gear variation reduces character development and equipment choices. Why run an inferior gear set?
What you want to ask for now, is indirectly what you said it isn't about. Reducing the power of tenebrous, is reducing the P2W, because they come straight outta lockboxes. And you'd hope that any enchants outta boxes released after would also be nerfed in power. Or were sitting back at square 1.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Nerf Tenebrous now. And see more enchants outta lockboxes later that could be more broken.
Or remove enchants from lockboxes completely?
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
The point of FTP games is that they sell things for ad/zen so people don't have to sub. what makes this game different from every other ftp game is the auction-house also runs on ad so you can make the ad without spending any real money by selling stuff that you get.
lockboxes are a key part of a free to play market cause it plays off the gambling addiction. and tenebrous takes the pound of flesh from people who typically don't wish to pony up for this gamewith cash OR grind for goods to sell aka work for it.
Ive actually noticed often the things found in lockboxes sell for cheaper than top end grinding goods or zen-store items just because so many people are trying to fund keys to get what they "Want". Compare the prices of phaeroas to the zen-store bird as a basic example.
But Id be all for them dropping ingame instances etc. Then the whole p2w considering these are moot.
FYI - I find this game the easiest out of all F2Pmmos, to actually farm/convert into CS currency. There are bunch of factors to that, including decent/large population, game relatively new (prices haven't inflated out of control yet), game not having all that much CS items (yet), and the way the AH functions. I just don't want to see it go down that road, Ive seen every other f2pmmo go.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
The new trend of "F2P" MMOs are killing the genre imo!
Edit: Also, any OP proc shouldn't stack. I don't even need to play the **** game to throw that one out there.
What is happening and will continue to happen is that people new to the game will get decimated in pvp matches and any potential revenue for Cryptic/PW will be gone. I don't understand how they don't recognize how the current game is hurting their future growth.
As has been posted in many different posts, some simple fixes will at least bring the game back into balance and make it more enjoyable. This in turn means $$. When people are happy, they spend money.
The people that say everyone is "crying" or "L2play" along with "Cryptic doesn't care about PvP" are only looking out for themselves and aren't contributing in any way to the future of this game.
Tene should atleast be removed from PvP, infact all PvE obtained gear should be removed. 3 PvP sets should be released for each class, defensive, hybrid and offensive with weapons, accessories, ehchants and all. This would balance PvP, they should also split skills into PvP/PvE versions. Not like its gonna happen, since PWE and Cryptic just dont care enough.
Aslong as there are pay to win sides in a game, it will be unbalanced. In PvE it doesnt matter, but in PvP it matters alot. GW2 among others did it right with their Real Money shop, vanity things and vanity things only. Everything else is obtained by playing the game. But in NW with the insane prices and a currency you cant really grind, it becomes a second job if you dont feel like spending real cash on things. Too many currencies and the exchange rate is so silly it hurts everytime I look at the zen exchange.
Atleast GW2 and others have 1 currency in game + badges and then they have one currency you can either buy for gold or RL money. Plus gold can be farmed at a good pace, not like the 24k per day cap they have in NW. And the currency you can buy doesnt try to rob you of your arms and legs.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Or perhaps split the damage into an initial burst and a DOT?
Also while they aren't very prevalent right now, once more and more people attain their full build they'll be able to save up and get Tene's for PvP. I can see them becoming a much larger problem in the future.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Only way forward for the "genre", because S2P MMOs can't retain enough subs to make money consistently other than two (the big momma and EVE, each of which is a special case). F2P is the way of the future.
If you want F2P which is less intrusive try something like PoE. But for PWE MMOs, they are always set up such that you can buy the premium currency with real money, and then use that in game to get great gear. It's a large part of the money pump in the game, from the profit perspective.
If you want the antiquated S2P model, you can find it -- and you know where to look.
I realize f2p games / devs need some sort of income. I don't mind cash shops that sell only fluff items. For me personally though it tends to turn me away from a game when those items can be sold for large amounts of ingame currency, in turn, to buy for example, end game gear. Then there tends to be alot of overly geared bads running around. If I'm to stay "competitive" in either PvE or PvP, I either get rich from cash shop items to buy said gear or I do nothing but grind currency to buy said gear. For me personally, there is no real sense of accomplishment there.
In any case, I'm going to play NW. I'm going to take it slow and pay attention to the lore. In general the game seems like alot of fun.
What you say is true, but "fluff" doesn't generate enough income - it really doesn't.
In GW2, the cash shop is fluff but you PAY for GW2 up front. That's B2P. That generates up front income to support the game such that you can have a fluff shop, which generates very modest yet incremental revenue. However, in order to pull that off, you need to generate sales up front, which of course Arena did with all of the hype for 1-2 years prior to launching GW2 (and I am not bashing GW2, I played and enjoyed it, but it was boring after a while as all games are).
In a true F2P game, where you can play for nothing at all, no software cost etc, a fully fluff shop doesn't generate enough revenue to support the game. A game like PoE operates this way, but that's a game that isn't really intended to make a profit, and is more of a stepping-stone for the creators to showcase their abilities.