Racism...

sourcreamking · July 2013

...where does the line go?

I know we can't be racist in our content, and that by itself is a good thing...

But; This is a game where we hunt down orcs, slaughter drow and annihilate goblins... That seems pretty racist to me! And those are indeed races, as opposed to different variations in skin-tone found in human specimens. So, can a wood elf use racial slurs when talking to a drow? They are species of the same race in my book.

Where does one draw the line?

zovya · July 2013

Since all these races are "imaginary", I think it will be ok. :-P

sourcreamking · July 2013

zovya wrote: »

Since all these races are "imaginary", I think it will be ok. :-P

Wait... You mean they're not...REAL??

In fact, different races amongst humans are also imaginary. Yet it's not ok to go down that line... So I'm a little weary here.

boomba66 · July 2013

sourcreamking wrote: »

Wait... You mean they're not...REAL??

In fact, different races amongst humans are also imaginary. Yet it's not ok to go down that line... So I'm a little weary here.

My second mod "Sound of Justice." deals in large part with racism and the breaking of perceived stereo types in the gaming world. If you read many of the hidden lore gems I have in it goes over overcoming it. I think that you can deal with the issues of the real world in game by simply making them fictional. It still can carry the same punch, just as we don't have any orcs or drow in our world it won't hurt any groups.

bioshrike · July 2013

People hate Drow because they capture and enslave other sentients, (except for the Renegades).

People hate Orcs because they come to a place and pillage it. That's also true of most demihumans, (goblins, orges, etc).

People are wary of Tieflings because demons/devils are very real, and they are in fact descended from them.

Whether people are racist against humans of darker or lighter skin tones is unknown. Whether blonde elves are racist against brunette elves is unknown.

At best you could say that many sentients are speciest.

sourcreamking · July 2013

boomba66 wrote: »

My second mod "Sound of Justice." deals in large part with racism and the breaking of perceived stereo types in the gaming world. If you read many of the hidden lore gems I have in it goes over overcoming it. I think that you can deal with the issues of the real world in game by simply making them fictional. It still can carry the same punch, just as we don't have any orcs or drow in our world it won't hurt any groups.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a few orcs in my time...

jintortle · July 2013

It is not called Racism it is called Survival of the Species!!!

zovya · July 2013

sourcreamking wrote: »

Wait... You mean they're not...REAL??

In fact, different races amongst humans are also imaginary. Yet it's not ok to go down that line... So I'm a little weary here.

Haha, well if it doesn't feel right to YOU, then don't do it.

chili1179 · July 2013

It depends on what race you are playing. If its against your race, then yes, its racist if its you against another race then no. Rules to live by.

sourcreamking · July 2013

zovya wrote: »

Haha, well if it doesn't feel right to YOU, then don't do it.

That's my problem I guess... I believe ANYTHING can be joked with. Even the vilest most horrendous things. I know some people don't agree, but since when did it become a human right NOT to be offended? If I find something offensive I don't make an outrage about it... It took some comedians less than 24 hours to joke about 9/11... Offensive? To some. Distasteful? Probably. Illegal? Not in my view...

Oh, the internal struggles of the mind!

sourcreamking · July 2013

chili1179 wrote: »

It depends on what race you are playing. If its against your race, then yes, its racist if its you against another race then no. Rules to live by.

So if I play as a hafling, I can't make rude comments about other halflings less than manly foot-hair? And how is it racist if it's towards your own race?

chili1179 · July 2013

sourcreamking wrote: »

So if I play as a hafling, I can't make rude comments about other halflings less than manly foot-hair? And how is it racist if it's towards your own race?

Its not, allow me to amend that: "if its you against any race that is not your own than no its not racist"

melinden · July 2013

I've used racism or racist elements in stories before. It is pretty easy in "real world" games like World of Darkness, but there is racism in Forgotten Realms too. It is funny you bring this up since I specifically added the option to be a racist jerk to the Calish+ite NPC in my first foundry. They are the Alquadim natives within Faerun and greatly disliked on the Sword Coast. Of course they tend to think Illuskans are barbarians. So yes, there is racism written into the game we are playing.

I think we read stories and play games as a way to think about the world we live in so I think it can be used if done thoughtfully. Just think, how many Star Trek episodes looked at racism, no matter what series it was?

zebular · July 2013

sourcreamking wrote: »

...where does the line go?

I know we can't be racist in our content, and that by itself is a good thing...

But; This is a game where we hunt down orcs, slaughter drow and annihilate goblins... That seems pretty racist to me! And those are indeed races, as opposed to different variations in skin-tone found in human specimens. So, can a wood elf use racial slurs when talking to a drow? They are species of the same race in my book.

Where does one draw the line?

. . . . . As long as it doesn't pertain to our Real World in any way and is something already found in the Forgotten Realms (or another D&D TSR/WotC production), then there really shouldn't be an issue unless vulgar language was used. Just stay away from anything that could be seen as also relating the real world, (because of our rules, I cannot name specific examples but..) if you were to use a slang that also is a slang for a real worth ethnicity or sexual preference, then there might be a problem.

riqita · July 2013

We hunt down villains who attack the innocent.
Race isn't a factor - unless you're personally racist.
Hopefully, racist characters would also be including slurs for humans.

sourcreamking · July 2013

zebular wrote: »

. . . . . As long as it doesn't pertain to our Real World in any way and is something already found in the Forgotten Realms (or another D&D TSR/WotC production), then there really shouldn't be an issue unless vulgar language was used. Just stay away from anything that could be seen as also relating the real world, (because of our rules, I cannot name specific examples but..) if you were to use a slang that also is a slang for a real worth ethnicity or sexual preference, then there might be a problem.

Ok, so I should stear clear of referring to people as "<removed>"? And what exactly is vulgar language? I tried to have an option in a dialogue earlier today where you could call a senior citizen "an old HAMSTER"... "HAMSTER" was profanity according to the foundry, so I had to drop that...

riqita · July 2013

Just make something up.
Pretty much any word is a slur, in the proper context.

sourcreamking · July 2013

riqita wrote: »

Just make something up.
Pretty much any word is a slur, in the proper context.

You said "slur".

zebular · July 2013

sourcreamking wrote: »

Ok, so I should stear clear of referring to people as "<removed>"? And what exactly is vulgar language? I tried to have an option in a dialogue earlier today where you could call a senior citizen "an old HAMSTER"... "HAMSTER" was profanity according to the foundry, so I had to drop that...

Yeah, I'd steer from that, here on the forums too! *the mage nods, agreeing with himself as usual*

. . . . . Vulgar language would be like saying, "Those ****ing ******* Calimsh-ites!" Or some other things that are filtered, but saying it in a way that is bypassing the filter. I don't think "an old HAMSTER," or some iteration there-of, would be a call for vulgarity or racism, as it's used quite often in the Realms, even in reference to Elminster himself a few times. I'm not sure why HAMSTER is censored in game, it might have some meaning in another language or be a part of something that is filtered and is just a "casualty of war," so-to-speak.

eldarth · July 2013

sourcreamking wrote: »

I tried to have an option in a dialogue earlier today where you could call a senior citizen "an old HAMSTER"... "HAMSTER" was profanity according to the foundry, so I had to drop that...

Ah, it's trying to help -- that's because the proper Faerun spelling would be "an old Pfhart."

apocrs1980 · July 2013

eldarth wrote: »

Ah, it's trying to help -- that's because the proper Faerun spelling would be "an old Pfhart."

I loled at this.
/10 char

sourcreamking · July 2013

zebular wrote: »

Yeah, I'd steer from that, here on the forums too! *the mage nods, agreeing with himself as usual*

. . . . . Vulgar language would be like saying, "Those ****ing ******* Calimsh-ites!" Or some other things that are filtered, but saying it in a way that is bypassing the filter. I don't think "an old HAMSTER," or some iteration there-of, would be a call for vulgarity or racism, as it's used quite often in the Realms, even in reference to Elminster himself a few times. I'm not sure why HAMSTER is censored in game, it might have some meaning in another language or be a part of something that is filtered and is just a "casualty of war," so-to-speak.

Wow... This has to be the first time I've been censored for writing straight.

I'll try to behave from now on!

zebular · July 2013

sourcreamking wrote: »

Wow... This has to be the first time I've been cencored for writing straight.
I'll try to behave from now on!

*the old mage chuckles*

lonnehart · July 2013

If I'm going use "vulgar" language in Neverwinter, I'll use what the culture of the land uses... Personally, I prefer to stay clear of any vulgar language and will not knowingly use it.

lolsorhand · July 2013

You guys are all old Pfharts! *Notes epic word down.*

nehemiah217 · July 2013

Well, the question with racism is indeed, where do you draw the line? On one hand, you have negative racism which includes discrimination, slurs, etc, and then there's positive racism, which includes getting selected for a job based on race, and so on. Whether or not this racism stipulation are regarding those "real world" (I know, I said it.... couldnt help it, my window is open, I can see the sun...) issues or in-character racism would be something to verify for sure. In-character racism can always be a motivating factor for NPCs in any quest; heck, even Old Lenn is a racist bugger, have ya heard him talk? ;-)

Personally, I think this issue is regarding real world racism and portraying those real-world stereotypical racial profiles in a derogatory manner in your User-Made Content. For instance, <removed example>. However, for those without the commonsense to realize that such a scenario isn't quite the best way to go about things, we have rules! ;-)

Also, let it be known that "genocide" != "racism". "<removed quote>"

nehemiah217 · July 2013

lonnehart wrote: »

If I'm going use "vulgar" language in Neverwinter, I'll use what the culture of the land uses... Personally, I prefer to stay clear of any vulgar language and will not knowingly use it.

There are many creative ways to craft "vulgar" language into a story without being so blatant. Stephen R Donaldson was very good at doing just that. Look at the Thomas Covenant series, the most he would say was "Bloody Hell", "Hellfire", and "damnation", but the undertones of those words would sound more like "Jay and Silent Bob" (Ok, maybe just Jay....) to us today....

melinden · July 2013

Remember we are playing in a world that has been around for decades and has scads of written material. For a list of curses and swears, read the 12th post on this thread (and yes, they give the appropriate English translation for anyone with delicate constitutions).

http://www.efupw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44397

cipher9nemo · July 2013

Anything that's written/said towards a fictional race is game in my book. So long as it doesn't contain or parallel real-world slurs it should be fine (ex: You "halfigger"! You "orcacker"!). I really wouldn't worry about it this much.

koboldbard2 · July 2013

zebular wrote: »

Yeah, I'd steer from that, here on the forums too! *the mage nods, agreeing with himself as usual*

. . . . . Vulgar language would be like saying, "Those ****ing ******* Calimsh-ites!"

Bone up on your lore Calimite.

jazzyjoyce · August 2013

This thread answered absolutely nothing. Just thought I would point that out:).

I think the OP is looking to place a bit of humor into his quest, it's what it sounds like to me anyways. I was thinking I was going to see if saying something like "No Ogres Allowed!" on a sign leading into a small town was considered racist (If the town were all elves or human, or what have you)... Or "No Humans allowed" if its an Orc village. These type of questions weren't asked, and although I don't have plans on using something like that, was actually hoping to see some kind of actual answers in this thread.

What I felt it meant was don't post something that says "This quest is only for black people!" In other words, real world stuff that could be considered racist, etc.

Racism...

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