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Some Elite Dungeons Delves are ridiculously difficult...

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  • yeruneyerune Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    tancred300 wrote: »
    and yeah, you can get t2 gear on AH if you really cant do it yourself (for whatever reason) or do GG which really anyone should be able to do...

    Oh wow, what a brilliant idea, I can just sell all the T2 drops I get from finishing T2 dungeons ... oh wait.....that was actually the whole point of this post, people can't finish T2's without T2 gear.
  • kimberixkimberix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    Oh wow, what a brilliant idea, I can just sell all the T2 drops I get from finishing T2 dungeons ... oh wait.....that was actually the whole point of this post, people can't finish T2's without T2 gear.

    That wasn't what he was saying. He was saying you can buy T2 off the AH if you can't finish the T2 dungeons themselves - that should then enable you to possibly finish some of the dungeons yourself.

    Personally though, I find it a poor mechanic that you could buy all the (BOE) T2 gear off the AH as that usually removes the incentive to actually do them.
  • jarlax1jarlax1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 68
    edited July 2013
    Myself and my balanced premade beat all the dungeons minus Dread Vault this was before you could buy your way and T2 quality items could not be found on the AH. The problem is the community wanting instant gratification and not wanting to work for it.These newer games promote this and I hate it. I came from 10 years of EQ1 where events would take a month for a guild to beat. Yes I wiped countless times on every boss in Neverwinter, but the feeling of accomplishment after you win is the reward. No I don't think everyone should be able to easily win everything in the game. There should be some minimal hard content for just rewards in the game. We are taking about 6 or 8 instances vrs the rest of the game. Everyone wants the best loot but no one every wants to work for it anymore they only want to get easy wins then troll the game for lack of content. If you want the best stuff in the game, work for it else be happy with easy loot.
  • mconosrepmconosrep Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    jarlax1 wrote: »
    Myself and my balanced premade

    No-one is arguing that is isn't possible with premades, it is the extremely low chances for PUGs that are the issue.
  • kimberixkimberix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    As I posted in another post;

    The truth is (and it hurts); the single biggest problem with MMORPGs nowadays is the PLAYER-BASE...

    They are the ones that complained that the older games were too hard, too grindy, too groupy, too exclusive, too expensive, too time-consuming.

    Now, they are the same ones that complain that the newer games are too easy, too simple, too solo, too casual, too cheap and too quick.
  • naicalusnaicalus Member Posts: 645 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    PUGs are... Interesting.

    I'm not even going to claim I'm a good player. I don't know most of the dungeons because I've never had an opportunity to learn(In a guild, guild is dead). I have a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> GS, 8.7k. I have an awful build. Some days I just derp out, or don't get out of the red circles in time and get one-shot from some miniboss WTFery combined with lag/graphics slowdown(I hate Cloak Tower). I am deeply casual.

    Half the time I'm still the best player in PUGs. *facepalm* I default to going after the adds on the boss most dungeons because most of the time nobody is going after them and the boss is completely unapproachable because of them/nobody else on the boss so I get the aggro and go squish because you can only dodge roll twice and potions only recharge so fast and heal so much.

    Granted I'm also sometimes That Guy who sits there and derps and randomly gets massive slowdown to where I basically can't control my character(And yes, I've tweaked my settings, I've got a good card and a mediocre system, but it doesn't matter) and either is useless in a miniboss fight, dies, or both because my frame rate is almost literally 1/second.

    The few T2s I've managed to successfully queue for, two runs of PK and one of Spellplague, two of those were successful(One PK, one SP). The other was a big boat of fail and we never finished.

    Honestly most of it seems to be group skill/knowing what you're doing. Once I got down what I was doing at the boss in Spellplague and everyone got perfectly organized on adds after we wiped the first attempt, it was smooth up until the last phase with only the occasional add slipping through to me while I slowly beat up the boss(Arms injury and a severe head injury, ran out of kits). Then all but the Cleric died right before the boss was going to but the cleric was able to run around in circles and get the last little bit of the boss, heh.

    Which, yeah, even the experienced players with 10k+ GS were dying during the run.

    What I really want to know is why they think the 'have a billion obnoxious adds with a trillion HP' is fun. Especially on the way in in any dungeon, so much trash...
    Largely inactive, playing Skyforge as Nai Calus.
  • dopeboiidopeboii Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    krisst0f wrote: »
    Aside from one or two, some of the dungeons at elite level are way too hard. Off the last 15 I played, only about 4 were completed and the others we gave up because one member just dropped (or crashed). Even with push powers/spells, it has become a joke. I played several times Castle Never and never finished it. The Dread Vault first 2 bosses are ok, but the last boss is just a show stopper every time I played it and escaping the red is simply impossible.

    Bottom line, for the last 2 weeks, T2 dungeons (even when you can find a good team) have been a nightmare.

    On top of that, it seems my streak of luck is at the bottom as the last 4 dungeons, I never ended up with a Very Rare, purple, item...only Drake seals, which are pretty unusable.


    I am a solid GF with the Stalwart Bulkward set, shield and sword, 2 (normal, not even greater) enchantments armor & weapon enchantments. I even have the full set of Knight Captain, same. Everytime it looks like I gotta use 50 Stone of Health charges to make it, and even when I play with good cleric, the whole team dying has become a fact of life.

    I think it is time for Cryptic to look at their log and adjust down the difficulty of these dungeons or soon the only thing I will consider is just switching to another game.

    Making $$ should not be an end in itself, but the way it goes, it might be the end of this game for me... and others that feel the same.

    FIX IT!
    :mad:

    Edit: Oh yeah, I got the whole set of frozen 2 rings and amulet too, which are supposed to be the best... doesn't help. Gear score about 9600!!! wtf?


    I agree, and disagree with you to some degree. I was informed - many times mind you - by someone in my old Guild (name can be given if required) that the Dungeons were created to be run with 1 of every class, and not with class stacking options. (2 CW's, DC's, etc, etc.) This being said, it seems that as of right now, stacking classes to some degree makes a difference in the efficiency of a group. (I'm not saying it's not possible with 1 of every class to do Dungeons, as I've done plenty of Dungeons with 1 of each class - excluding CN/Dread to completion ((notice how I said completion, and not 'doing it' cause I've tried 1 of each class in those particular Dungeons )) - it's just a simple matter of running Dungeons in a more efficient manner with more classes/class stacking.)

    Now, with the creation of a class stacked group, one has to realize this is not the only option. I'd like to remain a constant advocate of 'to each their own' but, I'd like to state that personally...the current Dungeons seem so boring to run since they seem to lack challenge. Now, granted, I do run with skilled people who do not require me in the Party, so that becomes moot lol. Also, I do personally have a Gear Score of 11k+, but as I've said to everyone I meet who keeps asking me; "What's your GS?" - GEAR SCORE DOES NOT MATTER, to a degree. When it comes to Stats, well, obviously the higher ones GS, the higher probability of one having higher stats, so it does play some part. That being said though, 2 people could be stacked the same way in every fashion; Powers/Feats/Stats/etc. and still showcase a different play-style with their class. And considering the BoE function, people just pay for their Gear Score without going through every Dungeon and getting well-acquainted with their class, which then leads to various Threads like these of people claiming that things cannot be completed. (I'm not saying that's what you did here, I'm saying that that is usually the train of Events that lead into the Threads.)

    Also, being a very non-social person, I said one thing to myself when I started playing NeverWinter and was shown a Dungoen (Cloak Tower.) "This game looks like it will need some sort of Guild/Party/ OR EVEN /communication in regards to doing things." Even if you aren't in a Guild, one has to keep in mind that communication is key if something is not going right. In a game with various other people being in a party and various classes being put together, and where strategy is needed in terms of factoring in various attacks being made towards you - the player - then it seems like improving in the given scenario would require some sort of communication with those other people. I've personally run Karrundax (T2) with 4 (and if I recall, even 3) People (without a Devoted Cleric) and it was because the PUG I was running with, was very open to trying out various strategies and trying things out. When you have players that after 1 wipe state; "THIS CAN'T BE DONE. I'M OUT." It becomes a very arduous task to try and speak about strategies. -- Oh and by the by, the 3 man Karrundax was GF/CW/TR (TR on Boss, GF takes Aggro on Mobs, CW uses a non-stop Singularity Spam to keep every add the GF takes locked, whilst evading various AoE's, etc, and watches as how various mobs die and then rinse and repeat when new mobs spawn. Also, when the red dragons spawn, you kill those whilst disregarding everything else, as once those are dead Karrundax will come back down and de-spawn the current stuff out.)

    The thing I would suggest, is first try and see if the PUG you're running in is open to communication with trying to party chat/voice chat, etc. See how that works, before stating that everything is implausible/impossible/too difficult.

    Last thing, if after reading that my GS (11k+) has made this whole reply moot, or even that I run with, Guildies (pre-made) then please do add me in-game, and I'll be happy to buy a Set to make my GS closer to the 8.3k-9.2k (T2) mark to at least try and run various Dungeons with those who are having difficulty. Mind you, I'm not the greatest as I get carried by my Guild, but that doesn't change the concept of trying to work with one another, especially in a game that requires team work because of how the Dungeons are setup. And also keep in mind, to each their own as you find it too difficult - and many others alongside you - and others find it very lack-luster.

    (add Loot@janemba003 <--without including the space before the '<'.)
  • callmedeuxcallmedeux Member Posts: 182 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Lol?

    1 week after this game went live we were FULL CLEARING CN.

    At that point I was 9k something GS TR soloing dracolich..

    l2p, or join a Guild that knows how to play.
  • yeruneyerune Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    kimberix wrote: »
    That wasn't what he was saying. He was saying you can buy T2 off the AH if you can't finish the T2 dungeons themselves - that should then enable you to possibly finish some of the dungeons yourself.

    Personally though, I find it a poor mechanic that you could buy all the (BOE) T2 gear off the AH as that usually removes the incentive to actually do them.

    That was exactly what he was saying. I am saying you need to sell T2 gear in order to buy T2 gear in order to succeed in T2 dungeons.
  • yeruneyerune Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    callmedeux wrote: »
    Lol?

    1 week after this game went live we were FULL CLEARING CN.

    At that point I was 9k something GS TR soloing dracolich..

    l2p, or join a Guild that knows how to play.

    And how many shortcuts and exploits got 'fixed' in the meantime?

    I do agree, having a well prepared and experienced team is crucial, but the way dungeons are set up, and again and as always imo, you need to shelf a lot of AD's before you have a chance at succeeding at a T2 or even a harder T1.
  • fallout1111fallout1111 Member Posts: 71
    edited July 2013
    The changes to leashing alone have made some miniboss fights harder than the end boss (Karrendax, I'm looking at you). Absurd numbers of adds in some fights (I counted 43 on the board at the same time during Pirate King). And yes, I have an excellent guild that works very well together using mumble. Really grindy, not much fun. This is the reason everyone uses the exploits when they can.
  • dopeboiidopeboii Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    yerune wrote: »
    That was exactly what he was saying. I am saying you need to sell T2 gear in order to buy T2 gear in order to succeed in T2 dungeons.

    Your logic doesn't make sense. It begs the question; If one needs to sell T2 Gear to buy T2 Gear, in order to succeed, how does one acquire T2 Gear in the first place, when usually one is Gearing themselves out?

    (What I'm trying to say is, even the T2 Gear that went into the Auction House from the very first day, was obtained by someone, using some means of finishing said T2 Dungeon. Let's also speculate and say that there is some probability/possibility of that specific someone being able to complete the T2 Dungeon without the use of T2 Gear/and various bugs/glitches/exploits, and if such a possibility exists (one cannot say it truly does not) then why is it that much harder to do it now even after the Dungeon Fixes where Dungeons have actually been made easier? Wouldn't it have been a much harder thing to do before a lot more of the community got into doing T2 Dungeons, as everyone was spending their time Leveling/acquiring Gear through said Dungeons? Wouldn't it have been harder still back then before the Dungeon changes?)

    The concept of 'it takes money, to make money' does apply to various situations and scenarios, and it does apply here to a degree. One would imagine, that if someone is trying to farm the T2 Dungeons for Gear, they've probably already started their path on the lower Leveled T1 Dungeons, and have gotten accustomed to their class. Farming T1 sets isn't so bad, as GF's would tell you that one of the most desired sets beats out some (if not all) of the T2 sets, and is a T1 set. (Stalwart.) There are people who would like to go straight into the T2 Dungeons, and not spend time in T1's, and to each their own, however...it seems very unlikely for someone to get the appropriate GS to enter T2's without at least running a T1 or getting donations in terms of their Gear/Enchants.
  • suxip01111suxip01111 Member Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    There is a huge difference between running T2s in a PUG, and running T2s with a guild party who communicate.

    The only T2 you're going to regularly beat with a PUG is Pirate King.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    OP is a GF with a GS of 9600 (equates to 7600 in other classes) and thinks the frozen rings are the best (he must be calculating movement stats equal to other stats).

    Based on this, it would be more feasible that OP is a beginner player who just needs a guild to help teach him about his class and the mechanics of the game
  • symonhumbleuksymonhumbleuk Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 89
    edited July 2013
    I remember reading or watching a video of neverwinter and the devs even said, they don't always finish the dungeons, if it's to hard for them, they leave them upto the community to figure out.

    Personally i play cleric ALOT more than my other classes, always needed.
    But i find that the person who usually will let down a dungeon win, is the CW, especially if they are not using controller skills, singularity is something i find really helpful in all dungeons, but alot of people don't seem to use it.

    Some bosses require controlling of the adds, if you got no controller it makes it annoying and difficult.

    It's also a TEAM effort, if people are going to stand in red circles from boss attacks and expect to be healed all the way through it, then they are not really paying attention to the fight and are just button mashing, i think the GWF and GF can withstand the attacks with a healer, but the other classes need to move!
    Usually have no issues in t2 when i grab a group from PE, but if you queue via K, it will usually end in a fail of the dungeon and time of course.. so..
    My Web: http://www.symonator.net
    Toons:
    New: CW Level 60
    GF = Level 60
    DC = Level 60
    TR = Level 60
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    I remember reading or watching a video of neverwinter and the devs even said, they don't always finish the dungeons, if it's to hard for them, they leave them upto the community to figure out.

    Personally i play cleric ALOT more than my other classes, always needed.
    But i find that the person who usually will let down a dungeon win, is the CW, especially if they are not using controller skills, singularity is something i find really helpful in all dungeons, but alot of people don't seem to use it.

    Some bosses require controlling of the adds, if you got no controller it makes it annoying and difficult.

    It's also a TEAM effort, if people are going to stand in red circles from boss attacks and expect to be healed all the way through it, then they are not really paying attention to the fight and are just button mashing, i think the GWF and GF can withstand the attacks with a healer, but the other classes need to move!

    I agree. Usually the CW whether obvious or not, is the one but its still a team effort regardless.

    I just think in this case, OP has shown to be ill-informed about the game (he either thinks 7600 GS is high or he doesn't know that GF gets an inflated gearscore and he thinks frozen rings are one of the best) that I would bet he also has some not so good tactics and needs a ton of help from an experienced GF
  • infernal667infernal667 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    You CAN beat T2 dungeons with T1 gear but you have to go about it in a clever way. What many still fail to understand is that you are not rewarded for merely participating in a dungeon run. There is no guarantee to win or to get loot whenever you spend time in the game. You have to learn the best practices of a dungeon either by trial and error or by reading guides before you can reap in the rewards. A lot of players try to play without thinking and lose horribly even after a lot of runs. Do not play with them for your own good. They will continue to fail for eternity so just move on and find better players.

    The first few times I went into T2 dungeons I also failed horribly but I learned from the experiences and adapted. I rearranged my gear, I respecced my skills and I read a few guides. The dungeons became easier and easier until I had no problem running them with my T1 gear. Then I started to acquire T2 gear and the dungeons turned into a smooth ride.

    Honestly, as condescending as this sounds, you have to learn to play. Of course if you are not willing to invest time into optimizing your playstyle or your toons configuration, then yes, the game is way to hard for you.
  • bioshrikebioshrike Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,729 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I can only speak from my experiences, but I've found that groups that slow down, don't rush through things, talk, and coordinate their efforts and power load-outs, do much better in T2. T1's are easy enough that an uncoordinated group with green gear can succeed, but the difficulty ramps up sufficiently enough with T2's that that's no longer enough.

    Events like DD and the general length of T2's encourage this rushing behavior, which is counter to how, (again IMO), people should be playing...
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