I play a DC/GF/GWF so these changes really don't change much for me. However to the TRs I have a couple questions:
Is the 60% on live a true 60%? What I mean is can you actually hit for 1000 normal and 1600 in LA or is this all napkin math and kneejerk? Just copy a char over and parse the average damage on live vs nerf. I am curious.
Second, if LA is really such a massive part of your DPS... does it not strike you that it's possibly too strong? I cannot think of a single daily in any other class that is remotely as strong as LA is made out to be in this thread. Slam does decent aoe damage but when parsed it really doesn't change much in the Damage Per Minute area (melee at-wills >>>>> daily powers). Villain's Menace is sort of similar, but it's bonus is much less. Most classes seem to have 1 or 2 go-to Dailies. Generally though that's simply because the other dailies are HAMSTER, not that the go-to daily is that good.
Numbers I'd like to see posted so an actual discussion can happen:
Live:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Average damage per hit in LA:
LA Uptime:
Test:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Average damage per hit in LA:
LA Uptime:
I play a DC/GF/GWF so these changes really don't change much for me. However to the TRs I have a couple questions:
Is the 60% on live a true 60%? What I mean is can you actually hit for 1000 normal and 1600 in LA or is this all napkin math and kneejerk? Just copy a char over and parse the average damage on live vs nerf. I am curious.
Second, if LA is really such a massive part of your DPS... does it not strike you that it's possibly too strong? I cannot think of a single daily in any other class that is remotely as strong as LA is made out to be in this thread. Slam does decent aoe damage but when parsed it really doesn't change much in the Damage Per Minute area (melee at-wills >>>>> daily powers). Villain's Menace is sort of similar, but it's bonus is much less. Most classes seem to have 1 or 2 go-to Dailies. Generally though that's simply because the other dailies are HAMSTER, not that the go-to daily is that good.
Numbers I'd like to see posted so an actual discussion can happen:
Live:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Average damage per hit in LA:
LA Uptime:
Test:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Average damage per hit in LA:
LA Uptime:
No napkin math please just the numbers
Well the thing is Lurkers was our go to daily in PvE. If you see a rogue using shocking execution in PvE it really shows that he wants the run to last 1 min longer.
Lurker's is just a flat 1.6 multiplier on our damage, which is 60% bonus damage. This skill also refills stealth very quickly which makes a 10 second flat permastealth, note that while we are stealthed we deal 25% more crit severity. This synergizes with bleed. On the 10th stack of duelist flurry, the bleed will stick to the last damage you have dealt(number before debuffs). then debuffs are calculated. Thus this rely on the rogue to boost his own damage to bleed high damage(i.e. if gwf debuffs falls off, so will bleed but bleed damage is a constant damage affected by debuffs.). Thus we activate lurkers to apply the 10th stack so we can deal as much damage over time with bleed as possible.(#1 reason why lurkers is our go to skill). Since due to rework of bleed in test server this will become irrelevant. This is just the bleed
Lurker's also provide a burst in terms of dps. Among t1 dungeoning rogues 6800-9000, this is not 100% irrelevant. it provides a great burst damage. While among end game rogues with 3k recovery... this daily happens manytimes in a dungeon, quite often. its the burst of the 60% flat damage increase that lasts full 10 second that makes the rogue do so much damage over the course of 10 seconds.
Mathematically speaking:
Note that Duelist flurry deals 2 hits of base damage then hits 10 times for 30-40% of the that damage. lets be generous and give us 40%. Being generous again lets give rogues 50% crit chance to make things simplier with no vorpal enchants.
Note this is without overrun critical(which provides somewhere between 10-5% of total damage depending on rogue's crit chance(its too complex to explain here, so we'll leave this out)).
Flat base Crit severity: 75%
Brutal Backstab feat: 25%(understealth)
Deadly Momentum feat: 15%(after lots of flurries)
Total: Crit severity 115% which means 215% of regular damage
I actually hit around 1800-1900.
Live: 1 Duelist Flurry(4 seconds)
Average damage per hit out of LA: 2000+2000+10(2000(0.4))= 12000
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Average damage per hit in LA:
no crit: 3200+3200+10(3200(0.4))= 19200
50% crit: 3200+2.15(3200)+5(3200(0.4))+5*2.15(3200(0.4))=30240
LA Duration:10 seconds.
Thus I can fit 2.5 Flurries(not exactly true due to awkward initial cast animations since more damage is dealt in the subsequent 2 seconds) in a lurkers. Total damage over 10 seconds is = 75600, divide that by 2 which will yield 5 seconds for 37800 damage.
Test:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Same as in Live server except the fact that stealth runs out before flurry can finish thus you deal less damage(due to losing brutal backstab feat) in test than live. Lets ignore that and assume they deal same damage.
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Average damage per hit in LA:
115% crit severity becomes 130% crit severity, which changes equation to:
2000+2.3(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.3(2000(0.4))=19800
Since this is over the course of 5 seconds and assuming stealth does not run out(which is not true). you are able to squeeze in 1.25 flurries 1 flurry + 1 second of 4 seconds flurry. This will yield me 19800*1.25= 24750
LA Duration: 5 seconds
Live Shard, Over 10 seconds under Live Lurker's: 75600
Test Shard, Over 10 seconds 5 under Lurker's and 5 seconds without lurkers: 24750+18900= 43650.
Difference in damage= 31950
% loss from Live shard=31950/75600 =42.26% loss in damage.
Second note, this does not include encounters which provides even more burst to lurker's damage. With this patch going live, its bye bye to my rogue and hello to my gwf since my sure strike will 100% out dps my rogue with or without my unstoppable and have much more utility and survivablity.
Edit: to those whom think this nerf to rogues was deserved... prepare your bottoms with lube for my gwf. Because since annoying rogues who deals no damage is dealt with by cryptic, it cleared the road for my GWF to become king of PvP and PvE, in damage, survivablity, and utility. Sadly for the rogue, they will have no real stun, no damage, no hp, no armor, a mere joke of "stealth" and fade away into oblivion...
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Good job on the math, but just looking at the patch notes and the previous nerfs any rogue knows they are killing the class. Unless you talk to pretender rogues on the forums then everything is peachy king and more than likely play a CW.
Some quick dirty numbers for a massively unoptimized 'picked what looked good while leveling' TR with an 8.7k GS, fighting trash mobs in foundries. Using PvP set to make stealth more useful without being built for it; I usually use Sly Flourish because I like using Sly Flourish. I admit my character is built awfully and I find Blitz a fun power. Basically this guy is neither doing incredible damage or killing anyone in PvP(OK, he doesn't even do PvP. Did it twice and never even did the third one to finish out the daily). He's kind of useless and usually 2nd or 3rd for Paingiver in dungeons but I've been holding off on the respec token from the end of beta to see if they did anything else(And boy am I glad!). Even then he's still been pretty fun.
So there's this:
Live server:
Avg regular hit: ~1200-~1400
Avg critical hit: ~1700-~1850
Avg in Lurker's Assault: ~2450-2500
Avg crit in LA: ~3700ish
Hits before running out of stealth: About 10
Duration of stealth in LA: Entire time, usually most of a meter after it ends.
Preview server:
Avg regular hit: Same
Avg critical hit: Same
Avg in LA: Same
Avg crit in LA: ~1800-spike of ~2300
Hits before running out of stealth: 5
Duration of stealth in LA: Runs out before LA does.
Obviously this is approximate. (The LA crit numbers especially given how short the duration is now.)
Yeah. Not happy. My TR was the only char of mine I still actively played. My guild is dead, all but like four people have left the game, so it's entirely PUG DDs and the odd foundry quest now. This'll pretty much drive me away if it goes live unscathed. Yes, please, kill my class feature and destroy the survivability I already didn't have *and* my damage. That's great. Love it. I don't have a lot of time for gaming, so when something happens that basically negates the time I have been able to put in... Yeah.
It's ok, mobs will still die. If the devs want dungeons to last longer, it's up to them to make the decision. Many situations in game still require rogues, because they still have the best single target dps, and can use stealth occasionally to get rid of aggro while the rest of the team is busy.
If people want to make inefficient teams it's their decision but it's stupid. The game isn't all about dps. It's mostly about cooperation between classes and having a good strat.
It's ok, mobs will still die. If the devs want dungeons to last longer, it's up to them to make the decision. Many situations in game still require rogues, because they still have the best single target dps, and can use stealth occasionally to get rid of aggro while the rest of the team is busy.
If people want to make inefficient teams it's their decision but it's stupid. The game isn't all about dps. It's mostly about cooperation between classes and having a good strat.
As I said somewhere else, the games are all about DPS and Survavibility. TRs will have neither of those. GWF will excel at both. You are just another PVP whiner that has no place in a group based game.
@meeggtoast: nice math there. As I estimated, the damage loss is around 42%. This will kill rogues. There will be zero reasons to bring a rogue in dungeon anymore, not even to skip from a campfire to another. GWF can do that while drinking a coffee with their Survavibility.
And here we are without even an answer from an official Developer on this issue.
Way to go cryptyc.
0
avianbandorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 24Arc User
TR daily nerfted to 15% crit severity is a bit too harsh.
if they are to keep 60% dmg increase please remove stealth bar regen from that daily or make the dmg increase dont stack with stealth dmg increase buff.
0
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
TR daily nerfted to 15% crit severity is a bit too harsh.
if they are to keep 60% dmg increase please remove stealth bar regen from that daily or make the dmg increase dont stack with stealth dmg increase buff.
I guess you missed the latest update. The 15% crit severity is gone and is back to a damage bonus, but it is now 15/20/25% instead of 20/40/60%.
0
rlockwood1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 3Arc User
Is it just me or does it only last a couple seconds, now, too?
Waking the dead is frowned upon. Horrible necro. Please close this.
On this, it gives undesirable results when used with the Improved Cunning Sneak feat which increases stealth by 4%/point spent.
See http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?506681-Lurkers-Assault-stealth-not-regenerating
It gives the appearance and sound of lasting about half the time it should. It looks like the client is reporting stealth and LA is finished but the server reminds it its got ~5 more seconds of both to go. Messed up UI.
Comments
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Is the 60% on live a true 60%? What I mean is can you actually hit for 1000 normal and 1600 in LA or is this all napkin math and kneejerk? Just copy a char over and parse the average damage on live vs nerf. I am curious.
Second, if LA is really such a massive part of your DPS... does it not strike you that it's possibly too strong? I cannot think of a single daily in any other class that is remotely as strong as LA is made out to be in this thread. Slam does decent aoe damage but when parsed it really doesn't change much in the Damage Per Minute area (melee at-wills >>>>> daily powers). Villain's Menace is sort of similar, but it's bonus is much less. Most classes seem to have 1 or 2 go-to Dailies. Generally though that's simply because the other dailies are HAMSTER, not that the go-to daily is that good.
Numbers I'd like to see posted so an actual discussion can happen:
Live:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Average damage per hit in LA:
LA Uptime:
Test:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Average damage per hit in LA:
LA Uptime:
No napkin math please just the numbers
Well the thing is Lurkers was our go to daily in PvE. If you see a rogue using shocking execution in PvE it really shows that he wants the run to last 1 min longer.
Lurker's is just a flat 1.6 multiplier on our damage, which is 60% bonus damage. This skill also refills stealth very quickly which makes a 10 second flat permastealth, note that while we are stealthed we deal 25% more crit severity. This synergizes with bleed. On the 10th stack of duelist flurry, the bleed will stick to the last damage you have dealt(number before debuffs). then debuffs are calculated. Thus this rely on the rogue to boost his own damage to bleed high damage(i.e. if gwf debuffs falls off, so will bleed but bleed damage is a constant damage affected by debuffs.). Thus we activate lurkers to apply the 10th stack so we can deal as much damage over time with bleed as possible.(#1 reason why lurkers is our go to skill). Since due to rework of bleed in test server this will become irrelevant. This is just the bleed
Lurker's also provide a burst in terms of dps. Among t1 dungeoning rogues 6800-9000, this is not 100% irrelevant. it provides a great burst damage. While among end game rogues with 3k recovery... this daily happens manytimes in a dungeon, quite often. its the burst of the 60% flat damage increase that lasts full 10 second that makes the rogue do so much damage over the course of 10 seconds.
Mathematically speaking:
Note that Duelist flurry deals 2 hits of base damage then hits 10 times for 30-40% of the that damage. lets be generous and give us 40%. Being generous again lets give rogues 50% crit chance to make things simplier with no vorpal enchants.
Note this is without overrun critical(which provides somewhere between 10-5% of total damage depending on rogue's crit chance(its too complex to explain here, so we'll leave this out)).
Flat base Crit severity: 75%
Brutal Backstab feat: 25%(understealth)
Deadly Momentum feat: 15%(after lots of flurries)
Total: Crit severity 115% which means 215% of regular damage
I actually hit around 1800-1900.
Live: 1 Duelist Flurry(4 seconds)
Average damage per hit out of LA: 2000+2000+10(2000(0.4))= 12000
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Average damage per hit in LA:
no crit: 3200+3200+10(3200(0.4))= 19200
50% crit: 3200+2.15(3200)+5(3200(0.4))+5*2.15(3200(0.4))=30240
LA Duration:10 seconds.
Thus I can fit 2.5 Flurries(not exactly true due to awkward initial cast animations since more damage is dealt in the subsequent 2 seconds) in a lurkers. Total damage over 10 seconds is = 75600, divide that by 2 which will yield 5 seconds for 37800 damage.
Test:
Average damage per hit out of LA:
Same as in Live server except the fact that stealth runs out before flurry can finish thus you deal less damage(due to losing brutal backstab feat) in test than live. Lets ignore that and assume they deal same damage.
Assuming 50% crit chance: 2000+2.15(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.15(2000(0.4)) = 18900
Average damage per hit in LA:
115% crit severity becomes 130% crit severity, which changes equation to:
2000+2.3(2000)+5(2000(0.4))+5*2.3(2000(0.4))=19800
Since this is over the course of 5 seconds and assuming stealth does not run out(which is not true). you are able to squeeze in 1.25 flurries 1 flurry + 1 second of 4 seconds flurry. This will yield me 19800*1.25= 24750
LA Duration: 5 seconds
Live Shard, Over 10 seconds under Live Lurker's: 75600
Test Shard, Over 10 seconds 5 under Lurker's and 5 seconds without lurkers: 24750+18900= 43650.
Difference in damage= 31950
% loss from Live shard=31950/75600 =42.26% loss in damage.
Second note, this does not include encounters which provides even more burst to lurker's damage. With this patch going live, its bye bye to my rogue and hello to my gwf since my sure strike will 100% out dps my rogue with or without my unstoppable and have much more utility and survivablity.
Edit: to those whom think this nerf to rogues was deserved... prepare your bottoms with lube for my gwf. Because since annoying rogues who deals no damage is dealt with by cryptic, it cleared the road for my GWF to become king of PvP and PvE, in damage, survivablity, and utility. Sadly for the rogue, they will have no real stun, no damage, no hp, no armor, a mere joke of "stealth" and fade away into oblivion...
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
So there's this:
Live server:
Avg regular hit: ~1200-~1400
Avg critical hit: ~1700-~1850
Avg in Lurker's Assault: ~2450-2500
Avg crit in LA: ~3700ish
Hits before running out of stealth: About 10
Duration of stealth in LA: Entire time, usually most of a meter after it ends.
Preview server:
Avg regular hit: Same
Avg critical hit: Same
Avg in LA: Same
Avg crit in LA: ~1800-spike of ~2300
Hits before running out of stealth: 5
Duration of stealth in LA: Runs out before LA does.
Obviously this is approximate. (The LA crit numbers especially given how short the duration is now.)
Yeah. Not happy. My TR was the only char of mine I still actively played. My guild is dead, all but like four people have left the game, so it's entirely PUG DDs and the odd foundry quest now. This'll pretty much drive me away if it goes live unscathed. Yes, please, kill my class feature and destroy the survivability I already didn't have *and* my damage. That's great. Love it. I don't have a lot of time for gaming, so when something happens that basically negates the time I have been able to put in... Yeah.
If people want to make inefficient teams it's their decision but it's stupid. The game isn't all about dps. It's mostly about cooperation between classes and having a good strat.
As I said somewhere else, the games are all about DPS and Survavibility. TRs will have neither of those. GWF will excel at both. You are just another PVP whiner that has no place in a group based game.
@meeggtoast: nice math there. As I estimated, the damage loss is around 42%. This will kill rogues. There will be zero reasons to bring a rogue in dungeon anymore, not even to skip from a campfire to another. GWF can do that while drinking a coffee with their Survavibility.
And here we are without even an answer from an official Developer on this issue.
Way to go cryptyc.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?419161-Alrenative-to-TR-nerf-not-yet-explored-See-inside
Your "alternative" is nothing new. It is what everyone was asking for.
It is what everyone in their right mind would do. Everyone but Cryptic.
if they are to keep 60% dmg increase please remove stealth bar regen from that daily or make the dmg increase dont stack with stealth dmg increase buff.
I guess you missed the latest update. The 15% crit severity is gone and is back to a damage bonus, but it is now 15/20/25% instead of 20/40/60%.
Is it just me or does it only last a couple seconds, now, too?
Waking the dead is frowned upon. Horrible necro. Please close this.
On this, it gives undesirable results when used with the Improved Cunning Sneak feat which increases stealth by 4%/point spent.
See http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?506681-Lurkers-Assault-stealth-not-regenerating
It gives the appearance and sound of lasting about half the time it should. It looks like the client is reporting stealth and LA is finished but the server reminds it its got ~5 more seconds of both to go. Messed up UI.