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The Lurker's Assault's nerf is over the top: math inside
shuy1
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Copy past my math from the General Discussion:
Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:
Now:
Every crit is 1000 + 1000*75/100 = 1750 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits and 5 aren't. 1000*5 + 1750*5(=8750) = 13750.
In LA, you hit for 1600 damage.
Every crit is 1600 + 1600*75/100 (= 1200) = 2800 damage
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1600*5 + 2800*5 = 8000 + 14000 = 22000 (a 60% increase without LA)
On Preview shard:
Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:
In LA:
1000 damage base, 50% crit chance, 90% crit severity.
Every critical hit is: 1000 + 1000*90/100 = 1900.
In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1000*5 + 1900*5 = 5000 + 9500 = 14500.
On live, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 22000 damage, a 60% expected increase of your base damage.
On preview, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 14500 damage. A ~6% increase of your base damage.
Basically, TRs have lost a good 30% of their damage counting this nerf only. Let's put togheter the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth" and we are reaching a good 50% DPS LOSS.
Lurker's Assault basically is now trash.
I suggest you to either drop the damage bonus to 15/30/45% or to improve the Critical severity to 30/60/90%.
With a 90% more crit severity, we will be looking at:
Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 165% crit severity
Every crit is 1000 + 1000*165/100 = 2650
In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits: 1000*5 + 2650*5 = 5000 + 13250 = 18250
A 35% increase from the base damage instead of the 60% we have on live now.
Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:
Now:
Every crit is 1000 + 1000*75/100 = 1750 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits and 5 aren't. 1000*5 + 1750*5(=8750) = 13750.
In LA, you hit for 1600 damage.
Every crit is 1600 + 1600*75/100 (= 1200) = 2800 damage
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1600*5 + 2800*5 = 8000 + 14000 = 22000 (a 60% increase without LA)
On Preview shard:
Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 75% crit severity:
In LA:
1000 damage base, 50% crit chance, 90% crit severity.
Every critical hit is: 1000 + 1000*90/100 = 1900.
In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits. 1000*5 + 1900*5 = 5000 + 9500 = 14500.
On live, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 22000 damage, a 60% expected increase of your base damage.
On preview, in LA, over 10 hits, you will hit for 14500 damage. A ~6% increase of your base damage.
Basically, TRs have lost a good 30% of their damage counting this nerf only. Let's put togheter the "At-will powers will now deplete stealth" and we are reaching a good 50% DPS LOSS.
Lurker's Assault basically is now trash.
I suggest you to either drop the damage bonus to 15/30/45% or to improve the Critical severity to 30/60/90%.
With a 90% more crit severity, we will be looking at:
Assuming 1000 damage for every hit and 50% crit chance and 165% crit severity
Every crit is 1000 + 1000*165/100 = 2650
In LA, hit will hit for 1000 damage.
Every 10 hits, 5 of them are crits: 1000*5 + 2650*5 = 5000 + 13250 = 18250
A 35% increase from the base damage instead of the 60% we have on live now.
Post edited by shuy1 on
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My suggestion would be that they make Lurkers a 5/10/15% bonus to both Crit Chance and Crit Severity.
Also, they do mention new enchantments are coming and if there is one with a crit severity bonus then these changes could actually be irrelevant for a TR built to take advantage of it.
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I totally agree. Lurkers assault nerf is over the top. I understand the perma stealth need fix, but now they screw us in PVE. When they nerf Lashing Blade damage, the coffin will be sealed. Say good bye to my 5mil AD rogue.
Given that any control power automatically cancels said daily. It was pretty balanced.
Quote me where I said it please.
a big issue with rogues is half our powers were too good yes but the rest of them were often...and why do we even have this power again? My hopes is instead of just going down the nerfy path. which makes everyone upset they might consider looking at the new builds that come up after this and buff the powers that people STILL wont touch with a 10 foot pole. buff feats that promote team play and cooperation (like flanking bonuses) and for the healers out there buff the weaker heals of devoted cleric who got hit really hard by the astral seal nerf.
I was thinking about buying the expansion pack and sticking around for Warlocks, but considering I hate the F2P/Greed model and this game is based off 4th Edition DnD, etc. They can lose one player that actually gave them money. I woll probably just stick to console games from now on, MMO's have lost their appeal between all the exploits and constant "balancing" while the game is live. They should have definitely fixed all this HAMSTER before the game even went in to soft launch, excuse me, "open beta"...
Over all this is a very good game in my opinion and a very decent ftp system but if you are wearing you should take a break play other games and check this game out again in a few months. the rate this game is adding content is pretty good if they keep it up. I think the general idea is they start the game content low so they can give us new things every month instead of every year.
I suspect they probably had archers and warlocks and the various elves and pets don't before the beta weekends and they are releasing them slowly every couple weeks while they fix bugs and balance content and work on next years assortment of new releases
this of course means for the first 6 months or so the game will feel content light and it will seem like we aren't getting what we ask for.
but once the next production cycle starts im sure people will start seeing a lot of the things that the forums are suggesting like battle clerics/palidins, co-op foundries, player lairs, Player made PVP maps, ect. the coices this company makes may seem crazy sometimes but im hoping they are actually being crazy like foxes. maybe the LA cut was purposeful to scare the people crying nerf a bit.
Yay, more nerfs. How clueless are you? Fix this properly or don't touch it. This is starting to get beyond stupid.
How often was Lurker's Assault available? I find it hard to believe that this could result in a 50% DPS (damage over time) loss. It's a huge, huge loss in terms of burst damage capability, and it'll hurt a lot in PvP, but your objection seems a little overwrought from a PvE perspective. (PvE being where DPS tends to matter.)
Correct me if I'm wrong.
DPS = Damage per second, not over time.
You are right that this hurts BURST DPS. But Burst DPS IS included in the DPS. Burst dps loss = Damage per second loss.
Also, the At-will depleting stealth will result in even more DPS loss.
1. Heh, a second is a unit of time.
2. Burst damage is a component of DPS. So yes, if you lower burst damage capability, you generally also lower DPS (unless the bursty build option can be supplanted with something that works equally well on average). But if the burst is only available for some fraction of your total combat time, its effect on your overall damage over time can be pretty unimpressive. That's why I asked how often Lurker's is available.
3. I'm interested in hearing your analysis of how the At-Will change affects DPS in PvE. That's not sarcasm, by the way; I genuinely have no idea how the At-Will thing will affect PvE Rogues. Seems like it'll be more significant than the Lurker change (again, in PvE) from what I've read.
1. Semantics.
2. A good TR will have LA up enough to make it noticeable. In a pug CN run, LA will be used MUCH more than 5 times, basically being one of the best DPS ability that TRs have. I can't give you any number on "how often" it is up. It's so much to make this nerf really a severe nerf.
3. Haven't had a chance to go to the preview server yet. However, Stealth is basically used always but mainly to stack Duelist's flurry. When all your powers are in CD, you use your at-will. Combat Advantage is also a big part in TRs' DPS and Stealth is the primary way for rogues to gain CA. Less Stealth = less CA = less DPS.
Well now you cant even finish a DF while in stealth, it depletes completly, not even if you use stealth after the second DF hit, still the stealth meter depletes before finishing DF. Tested it this morning.
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Maybe you should try looking past the tip of your nose and actually compare it to daily powers of other classes.
Just want to be sure of understanding. Yes, action interruption could cancel using a daily power, sometimes before the action points are actually spent and sometimes after. But I honestly have not registered that effects could stop you from using your daily power while it was already up, except Lurker's.
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I play all 5 classes at lvl60, and the only problem I had with TR's was when they CoS spammed from Lurkers while I was occupied with someone else. And not even all TRs CoS hurt like that, only the ones with uber-enchants.
This is getting more and more ridicolous. That's even a bigger nerf than I thought. The damage from DF will be MUCH lower if this goes live. This is lame.
the maximum bonus is not +15% crit severity, so 90% crit severity total?
Ah, this is actually right. Thanks, I've updated my math.
We just went from a 60% damage bonus in LA to a 6%, a 37,6% DPS LOSS in LA.
Counting that you can't even finish a DF in Stealth, I was right to say that we are looking at an over 50% total DPS of TRs.
Anyone who doesn't or does play a TR realize that what you just said is what a PVP whiner say.
A 36~50% DPS loss is not big. Right :rolleyes:
Actually... incorrect.
Lets get your facts straight.
12->8 daggers: Good for pvp and meh for pve
LA 60%->6%: TERRIBLE for PVE and not okay for pvp (ap regen is slow you get 1 daily per game~ so impact is not so significant)
Atwills remove stealth: ABSURD!!! I wont even begin to describe the appalling nature of this...
Yes, it means I'm sacrificing the ability to put a damaging power in the rotation. No, it doesn't mean I'm terrible at being a rogue. It means I've made the trade-off to increase my AP gain in order to get dailies out more often, which is also how I've built my GWF, and has always struck me as a legit strategy for building a character.
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We already know what you are Mr. God Mode GWF, don't worry they will be on the chopping block soon enough and the tears of lament and crying about getting nerfed will be upon you soon enough.
Now since they are gutting the TR class, would love them fix the easy kills CW's you get for knocking mobs off the edge. Oh while you are at it half their tab power duration as well.
Then we could sit back and laugh and point fingers and talk about how this was a needed "fix" and its better for the game and pretend we play these classes and say you suck if you cant adapt and things like that.
I am unable to test accurately with data unless i have drake/unicorn items.(which i hopefully will get 200 this week on my TR and GWF)
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
No, these insane Rogue nerfs aren't even close to being comparable to what Cryptic did to Cleric's Astral Shield. AS' duration was the ONLY thing that got nerfed and only by 4 seconds. They didn't touch the VALUES of Astral Shield's heal over time nor its damage reduction. Cryptic only made it so you can't stand inside AS indefinitely, become invulnerable forever, and faceroll their joke of PvE content.
Clerics also never had their Dailies completely gutted like Rogues have. In fact, no other class has had their class mechanics/features, TWO Dailies, and every At-Will effected as much as Rogues have. If we're comparing Clerics, it would like Cryptic getting rid of Hallowed Ground AND Divine Armor's damage reduction and replacing it with 15% increase in healing instead. It would be like Cryptic nerfing all heals from every At-Will and Encounter by 30-40% (not including Righteousness). It would be like Cryptic nerfing Astral Shield again and reducing the damage resistance and HoT while not increasing the duration. It would be all of these nerfs combined in 1 huge nerf bat hit. That's what Rogues are now dealing with.
I could do this with other classes, but I don't feel like typing even more. The point is, Cryptic is destroying an entire class and it's not even comparable to any nerf other classes has ever gotten. In fact, Rogues are the only class to now receive TWO major nerfs without seeing any buffs to compensate for and actually BALANCE out their heavy-handed nerfs.