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Interesting Reads on F2P - Discuss If You Please

rollingonitrollingonit Member Posts: 1,322 Arc User
edited July 2013 in Off Topic
But don't let it get outta hand.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130626/194933/The_Top_F2P_Monetization_Tricks.php

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidParis/20130710/195974/F2P_Gaming__Removing_the_Stigma.php

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php

Interesting website with blogs/articles. Free time at work.

Just a clip from the middle link.
I think this may be exactly what we are missing in the current game market. Clear product marking that let's the consumer know how much of the game is dependant on purchasing, and in what way. If games were required to clearly disclose this information, then I think all my F2P distaste would go away.

If NWO told you prior to signing up for an account. This is how much it would cost to make a Perfect Vorpal/Tenebrous with real cash. But then also told you, this is the highest level/competitive range. Would you feel more comfortable, and possibly lower expectations coming in?
We can pretend.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Post edited by rollingonit on
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    prolegapprolegap Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Thank you for the links. Shokrizade's articles are always thought-provoking and chillingly accurate.
    IMHO, It's time for a frank discussion in the industry on if it wants to be known for these kinds of monetization schemes. If the answer is yes, we need a second video game industry crash in the style of 1983, and all these people need to lose their jobs. Just burn it all down, and let the indies rebuild the industry on the ruins...
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    rhoricrhoric Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    F2P is the nature of the industry and nothing will change it.
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    draemorindraemorin Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 80
    edited July 2013
    The fact is this... the cost of everything in the United States has skyrocketed by 20+% over the past two years (in some cases... for instance fuel... the cost has increased 100%). I have kept tabs on all my cost of living expenses and the economic forecast is NOT GOOD for those of us here in the United States.

    In talking with hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more) European tourists over this past year... the economic forecast in Europe is not too bright either. Perfect World Entertainment/PWE (the proprietor of Neverwinter Online) is based/HQ'd in KaliforniaStan... and that state has seen a notable rise in its state/local taxes over the past few months. Then there's the National doubling of the payroll tax... which kicked in January 2013.

    As a result, the cost of gaming has increased at a rate commensurate with all the other cost of living increases (food, clothes, utilities, fuel, other forms of entertainment, taxes, so on and so forth).

    If you want it... you'll pay for it.
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    lostmarblesherelostmarbleshere Banned Users Posts: 654 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    rhoric wrote: »
    F2P is the nature of the industry and nothing will change it.

    The people who play the games will change it as they finally figure out they are getting ripped off
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    riqitariqita Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 297 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Always important to remember that not all models of F2P are coercive.
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    prolegapprolegap Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    riqita wrote: »
    Always important to remember that not all models of F2P are coercive.

    Neverwinter's model however is, like with all PW games. Starting with several different virtual currencies meant to obscure the value of ingame purchases from the player.
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    savagedeaconsavagedeacon Member Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This.
    I think that Ramin Shokrizade did a good job revealing some of the tricks-of-the-trade of the so called "free to play" games. You could say that the true "free to play games" are really the "pay to play ones" because once you have paid your monthly fee you really need not, nor you are asked for, to pay anything else.
    I know, I know, in the "free-to-play" games you "can get everything just playing and trading currencies":p;)
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    klixanklixan Member Posts: 447 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    This should be required reading for everybody who wants to sign up for a 'free to play' game. In fact, it's a shame they can't be turned into videos, because I know a lot of today's generation refuse to read at all.

    To the OP, thank you for posting these links, I've bookmarked this thread, because it's something I'm going to be refering people to again and again.
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    kimberixkimberix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Excellent find and post.

    Unfortunately, the vision that I used to have of game developers working in their bedrooms, or willing to work longer hours and weekends to get games out for the fun of people playing them is long out-of-date. Seemingly now, the vision is more of men in dark suits in board-rooms listening to data analysts on ways to squeeze every last penny out of their victims, sorry, playerbase.

    The fact that the industry has terms for people who pay big in supposedly free-to-play games shows that this has become acceptable standards.

    In a world of games that offer extras for payments, I'm much more comfortable with a one-off monthly fee for EVERYTHING rather than this shady nickle-and-dime approach (not that NW has any nickel-and-dime offers).
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    These so called perspectives on F2P are totally rubbish.

    P2P or B2P games have the same ways of pushing virtual items and services down the throats of the customers too.

    Why don't those P2P and B2P games have to disclose explicitly what items/services are not included in the monthly subscription and box fees?
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    neyph69neyph69 Banned Users Posts: 150 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    draemorin wrote: »
    Then there's the National doubling of the payroll tax... which kicked in January 2013.

    Why do people think this?...It was a 2% increase to Social security, thats it. And if you wanna get technical all they did was revert SS tax back to what is was in 2011. 2011 SS Tax rate for employees was 6.2%, in 2012 they decreased it to 4.2%, and for 2013 they brought it back to 6.2%. That was the only Payroll tax raise. They did not double payroll taxes for 2013. Anyone who is telling you this is sadly misinformed. Also, Im a payroll accountant and deal with payroll taxes on a regular basis for about 250 small businesses.

    On Topic: If F2p games were more open with what will cost what before they release then i think more people would be ok with the model. As it stands right now you dont know anything until you log into there game and see.
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    neyph69 wrote: »
    On Topic: If F2p games were more open with what will cost what before they release then i think more people would be ok with the model. As it stands right now you dont know anything until you log into there game and see.

    Again, what does it has to do with F2P? Most P2P and B2P online games have in-game cash shops which you have to log into the game to find out the details too. So don't you mean people would be ok with games like EvE and TSW not to know anything until they log into their games and not ok with F2P games?

    Failed logic is failed.
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    neyph69neyph69 Banned Users Posts: 150 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Again, what does it has to do with F2P? Most P2P and B2P online games have in-game cash shops which you have to log into the game to find out the details too. So don't you mean people would be ok with games like EvE and TSW not to know anything until they log into their games and not ok with F2P games?

    Failed logic is failed.

    The thing with B2P and P2P cash shops are that they are 99% cosmetic or convienence purchases. Things like costumes and exp potions. While in F2P win games they ussually have things that give advantages in some way for spending money. If the F2P games stated something like "Heres what will be available in our cash shop when we release" people are given the chance to see if the game is truly F2P based on what is available in the cash shop and make a decision on wheter or not they wanna play. As it stands now you have to make an account and see for yourself in game. Alot of people that see a F2P game will just download and start playing though and never look at the cash shop. What this does is get a player invested in a game and they dont realise that they will have to spend money to do anything of worth until its too late.
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    neyph69 wrote: »
    The thing with B2P and P2P cash shops are that they are 99% cosmetic or convienence purchases. Things like costumes and exp potions. While in F2P/P2W win games they ussually have things that give advantages in some way for spending money. If the F2P/P2W games stated something like "Heres what will be available in our cash shop when we release" people are given the chance to see if the game is truly F2P or P2W based on what is available in the cash shop and make a decision on wheter or not they wanna play. As it stands now you have to make an account and see for yourself in game. Alot of people that see a F2P game will just download and start playing though and never look at the cash shop. What this does is get a player invested in a game and they dont realise that they will have to spend money to do anything of worth until its too late.

    Shouldn't P2P and B2P games also need to specify what they have in their cash shops too to let people judge whether they are interested to play their games?

    If online games are required to explicitly specify what are in their cash shops then P2P and B2P, particularly B2P and P2P games without free trial, have much bigger such responsibilities to let their players know because their players have to pay to find out what are in their in-game cash shops.

    Don't just patronize P2P and B2P games just because they don't call themselves F2P. Consumers are not stupid.
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    zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Coercive?

    I could easily spend $0 on NW and STO with pretty much no negative effect. I've bought stuff on both because I felt like it, but I really didn't have to -- my purchases on NW are handy but I could easily have just as much fun without them (one companion, one mount).

    Heck, I easily bought a companion for a second character with AD that I didn't work particularly hard to raise (phoera are cheap).


    I mean, yeah, if you want top-end pvp dungeon stuff, maybe you feel more pressure. But ... why do you need that?
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
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    neyph69neyph69 Banned Users Posts: 150 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Shouldn't P2P and B2P games also need to specify what they have in their cash shops too to let people judge whether they are interested to play their games?

    If online games are required to explicitly specify what are in their cash shops then P2P and B2P, particularly B2P and P2P games without free trial, have much bigger such responsibilities to let their players know because their players have to pay to find out what are in their in-game cash shops.

    Don't just patronize P2P and B2P games just because they don't call themselves F2P. Consumers are not stupid.

    as i said the stuff in B2P and P2P games' cash shops are pretty much just cosmetic and have no in game impact on play. With B2P and P2P games you are paying for the game and you are receiveing said game with an added feature of a cash shop that can cosmetically alter your char. You allready know what you are paying for before you pay it. In F2P and P2W games you dont know how much money your going to need to be on par with the other people that are spending money. In B2P and P2P games everyone is on even ground. League of Legends has the perfect F2P model IMO, You can choose to unlock characters with RMT OR you can use the in-game currency you recieve from playing any match to buy them. The only thing that you can ONLY purchase with real money are skins and boosters for exp/in game currency. That is how a F2P game should be.
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    neyph69 wrote: »
    as i said the stuff in B2P and P2P games' cash shops are pretty much just cosmetic and have no in game impact on play. With B2P and P2P games you are paying for the game and you are receiveing said game with an added feature of a cash shop that can cosmetically alter your char. You allready know what you are paying for before you pay it. In F2P and P2W games you dont know how much money your going to need to be on par with the other people that are spending money. In B2P and P2P games everyone is on even ground. League of Legends has the perfect F2P model IMO, You can choose to unlock characters with RMT OR you can use the in-game currency you recieve from playing any match to buy them. The only thing that you can ONLY purchase with real money are skins and boosters for exp/in game currency. That is how a F2P game should be.

    This discussion is not on "what are in their cash shops"? It is whether the specifics of the cash shop contents should be disclosed without having players loading into the games.

    And obviously, it doesn't only pertain to F2P games because P2P and B2P games mostly have cash shops too.

    Please stay on topic.
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    skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I have to agree that it would be nice to know specifics before investing in a game.
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    skalt112 wrote: »
    I have to agree that it would be nice to know specifics before investing in a game.

    Good! Then I suggest you should go to those P2P and B2P games and ask them the same questions you asked here first because you have to financially invested in their games first before you get to know what are in their cash shops.

    On the other hand, you don't have to pay a cent to get on F2P games like this one to find out whether you want to spend on their cash shops.

    Suppose there were two kinds of Walmart in the world. One of them is free-to-shop and the other one charge for admission. As a customer, which Walmart do you think has the bigger responsibilities to tell its customers the specifics of their products?
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    neyph69neyph69 Banned Users Posts: 150 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    This discussion is not on "what are in their cash shops"? It is whether the specifics of the cash shop contents should be disclosed without having players loading into the games.

    And obviously, it doesn't only pertain to F2P games because P2P and B2P games mostly have cash shops too.

    Please stay on topic.

    It is on topic IMO but whatev. The main reason why i personally think F2P and P2W games should disclose what is in there cash shop is that what is available in them could be game breaking for some people. For instance, if you can purchase the BiS gear from the cash shop then that will steer alot of people away from the game that dont have dispospal income. While in B2P and P2P games the items in there cash shop are way less of note and therefore dont neccessarily need to be disclosed as they will have no impact on the actually game itself.

    Also, B2P games for example ussualy do list off what comes with the purchase of the box/digital copies of their games. IE:They normally put something like "this purchase includes the full game, 1 month of service, game manual, etc etc".
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    neyph69 wrote: »
    It is on topic IMO but whatev. The main reason why i personally think F2P and P2W games should disclose what is in there cash shop is that what is available in them could be game breaking for some people. For instance, if you can purchase the BiS gear from the cash shop then that will steer alot of people away from the game that dont have dispospal income. While in B2P and P2P games the items in there cash shop are way less of note and therefore dont neccessarily need to be disclosed as they will have no impact on the actually game itself.

    Totally untrue. There is nothing whatsoever in the EULA of the P2P and B2P online games I have played that they will never sell anything you find in any F2P games.
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    neyph69neyph69 Banned Users Posts: 150 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Totally untrue. There is nothing whatsoever in the EULA of the P2P and B2P online games I have played that they will never sell anything you find in any F2P games.

    what? i never said anything about any EULA or that someone will NEVER sell something. this statement doesnt even really apply to my post...
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    skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Good! Then I suggest you should go to those P2P and B2P games and ask them the same questions you asked here first because you have to financially invested in their games first before you get to know what are in their cash shops.

    On the other hand, you don't have to pay a cent to get on F2P games like this one to find out whether you want to spend on their cash shops.

    Suppose there were two kinds of Walmart in the world. One of them is free-to-shop and the other one charge for admission. As a customer, which Walmart do you think has the bigger responsibilities to tell its customers the specifics of their products?

    I don't play those games. I play this game, and I don't shop at Wal-Mart. Regardless, if anything was done about disclosure, then I would expect it to apply to all in the industry, and not just one type of model. As it said in one of the articles, Government regulation would be a disaster. Better if the games police themselves, over watched by players and journalists.
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    neyph69 wrote: »
    what? i never said anything about any EULA or that someone will NEVER sell something. this statement doesnt even really apply to my post...

    So you agreed P2P and B2P games MAY sell non-cosmetic items among other things later too. Good, then why don't you also go tell Blizzard, CCP, Funcom and other companies who operate P2P and B2P to release the specifics of their cash shops before you pay them either for the box or subscription or both?
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    neyph69neyph69 Banned Users Posts: 150 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    skalt112 wrote: »
    I don't play those games. I play this game, and I don't shop at Wal-Mart. Regardless, if anything was done about disclosure, then I would expect it to apply to all in the industry, and not just one type of model. As it said in one of the articles, Government regulation would be a disaster. Better if the games police themselves, over watched by players and journalists.

    I agree that if ANYONE has to disclose cash shop info pre purchase/download then all of them should. Im not arguing that. Im just saying that, imo, games that are P2w/F2P have more of a reason to do so as the cash shop is there money maker and not doing so could be misleading to some people that are expecting a "F2P" game but find out after the fact that it actually requires some money to be spent to do anything of worth.
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    skalt112 wrote: »
    I don't play those games. I play this game, and I don't shop at Wal-Mart. Regardless, if anything was done about disclosure, then I would expect it to apply to all in the industry, and not just one type of model. As it said in one of the articles, Government regulation would be a disaster. Better if the games police themselves, over watched by players and journalists.

    ROFL. It is not up to you to make and enforce laws. If players keep crying for specifics of their cash shops to be released then one day the Government may make such laws and don't QQ Moar when it happens to be the P2P games that get regulated.
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    neyph69neyph69 Banned Users Posts: 150 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    So you agreed P2P and B2P games MAY sell non-cosmetic items among other things later too. Good, then why don't you also go tell Blizzard, CCP, Funcom and other companies who operate P2P and B2P to release the specifics of their cash shops before you pay them either for the box or subscription or both?

    I never said that they wouldnt, i said in my original post that they GENERALLY do not have game breaking items of any kind in there cash shops. Also, i never said that they shouldnt be required to either, i simply said that i feel that F2P and P2W games should be more inclined to.
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    osiabunnyosiabunny Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    So you agreed P2P and B2P games MAY sell non-cosmetic items among other things later too. Good, then why don't you also go tell Blizzard, CCP, Funcom and other companies who operate P2P and B2P to release the specifics of their cash shops before you pay them either for the box or subscription or both?

    I can see you don't know how to use game's forums, Every single Sub game I have played when they have a store has listed items for sale what they do and how much they cost on their Website. Amazing right? Tera has had a cash shop since it released and even when it went into Free to play rip me off model, it surprisingly didn't change the nature of the shop, still offers cosmetic items, and even mounts are not superior to what you can get in the game itself within level 11 and others too remain out of the store.
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    neyph69 wrote: »
    I agree that if ANYONE has to disclose cash shop info pre purchase/download then all of them should. Im not arguing that. Im just saying that, imo, games that are P2w/F2P have more of a reason to do so as the cash shop is there money maker and not doing so could be misleading to some people that are expecting a "F2P" game but find out after the fact that it actually requires some money to be spent to do anything of worth.

    Making more money is always the biggest reason for any business. P2P and B2P games can also establish all F2P cash shop features to enhance the profits of their investors. You can have your opinion while the others can have theirs but either way it becomes the general discussion of cash shops, not specifically pertaining to this game. It is just OFF-TOPIC.
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    thejadeemperorthejadeemperor Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    osiabunny wrote: »
    I can see you don't know how to use game's forums, Every single Sub game I have played when they have a store has listed items for sale what they do and how much they cost on their Website. Amazing right? Tera has had a cash shop since it released and even when it went into Free to play rip me off model, it surprisingly didn't change the nature of the shop, still offers cosmetic items, and even mounts are not superior to what you can get in the game itself within level 11 and others too remain out of the store.

    Again, another person claiming what? The other games won't sell anything else in the future?
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