Well a TR who depend on LA to kill someone is probably a crappy TR (PvP wise).
The only true use of that daily was in PvE. I wouldn't mind it being nerfed as we have some other cool dailies that can still make our opponents suffer.
However not to fool our selves, TR's PvE out put damage will be heavily affected by that nerf. Not only because of LA but also because of the stealth consumption while using At-wills.
Good points.
Like I said, REALLY hoping they remove even like 30% of the mobs from both bosses AND the entire run... Heck if they did it right, you can remove knocking off adds because killing will be a real viable strategy which will then mean more people can dps the boss instead of just 1 tr while 4 people manage adds...
Like I said, REALLY hoping they remove even like 30% of the mobs from both bosses AND the entire run... Heck if they did it right, you can remove knocking off adds because killing will be a real viable strategy which will then mean more people can dps the boss instead of just 1 tr while 4 people manage adds...
SUCH a dumb strategy....
They promised a new boss fighting system at Fury of the Feywild update. I'm hoping for the best because dungeons are getting boring and easy .
rogue nerfing cause perma build annoying PVP. invisible vs invisible wars.. create a cw and play vs perma stealth. maybe u can understand us.
I actually have a level 60 mage, and guess what, I don't try to 1v1 people unless I have to. I focus on supporting my team with CC and RoE, because you know, its a team game.
As for dealing with stealth rogues, Steal time works nicely. They don't have Impossible to catch so they can't break out of the CC and if you hit with Steal time it reviles them through stealth, so you can move in for the choke -> ray of enfeeblement -> Iceknife death combo.
And again, I've no issue with nerfing perma-stealth build but these nerfs hit the core mechanics and cripple every single rogue. IF they wanted to nerf perma-stealth they should have targeted 'Shadow Strike' and 'Bait and Switch'. Why do the rest of us have to suffer because of one gimmicky build?
They promised a new boss fighting system at Fury of the Feywild update. I'm hoping for the best because dungeons are getting boring and easy .
Agreed. Legit mechanics would be very interesting and fun... I dont even run things anymore since I have almost everything i could want, so I pvp for the daily for fun, then log off now...
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borgued3Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 150Bounty Hunter
I actually have a level 60 mage, and guess what, I don't try to 1v1 people unless I have to. I focus on supporting my team with CC and RoE, because you know, its a team game.
As for dealing with stealth rogues, Steal time works nicely. They don't have Impossible to catch so they can't break out of the CC and if you hit with Steal time it reviles them through stealth, so you can move in for the choke -> ray of enfeeblement -> Iceknife death combo.
And again, I've no issue with nerfing perma-stealth build but these nerfs hit the core mechanics and cripple every single rogue. IF they wanted to nerf perma-stealth they should have targeted 'Shadow Strike' and 'Bait and Switch'. Why do the rest of us have to suffer because of one gimmicky build?
IMO they could have nerfed shadow strike and B&S, but they decided to nerf stealth and LA for some reason in such a way that the whole class got trashed fo PVE, all thanks to whiners. Cant wait for gwf to get the attention of the crying little scrubs to see how hard the nerfbat will hit them, maybe they would nerf unstopable and regen and let the rage inflame the forums.
I play a GF/GWF (yes I made my GWF BECAUSE they are super OP I realize that)
But I see all these TR forums and posts about the upcoming nerf and I really am wondering what the heck they are complaining about?
Basically the TWO nerfs are surround CoS (the throwing knives) that used to stack up to 12 available, not stacks to 8. Honestly this wont affect PVP a ton and was probably necessary as a slight nerf to the build known as "perma stealth"...
The other BIG change is that LA (a TR daily) that USED to:
- last about 10 seconds
- refill stealth meter fast
- grants 60% more crit severity
Is now
-last about 7 seconds
-grants 15% CS
-still refills stealth meter
PLEASE tell me ANY daily in this game that is even on par with how strong this daily is....
I mean its STRONGER than a PERFECT vorpal AND lasted 10 seconds?! HOW the heck is that balanced?!
It also would be one thing if like GFs had this, because they have horrible crit... But most TRs I play with have around 40+% crit so essentially that 10 second LA buff is granting a flat roughly 25% damage boost... and thats balanced?!?
Im sorry but... are you guys high? Please share another class daily that is that strong.... I think down to 15% is a LITTLE overboard... but still... compare that to other class dailies...
I think it will be a decent fix if it goes to live.
You don't know what you are talking about, a lesser vorpal chant is 12% and the next one up is 25%... that nullifies your comment in of itself. To further explain, it didn't add 60% crit severity, it added 60% damage and it was a daily. Building AP as a rogue is not as easy as other classes.
The new LA is 7 second lesser vorpal chant... lets not forget using at wills greatly diminishes your stealth now, on top of all that they made CoS worthless.
Yes it will impact PVE a ton, I am really hoping they go back once module 1 is out and nerf all the T1s and T2s so there are WAY less mobs on EVERYTHING...
Seems like if they made fights more legit, the PVE effect wont be that much, but right now because of the crappy add spawn system they have, where typically 1 TR is the ONLY thing on the boss most of the fight, this will be pretty big...
Im just surprised that most TRs are saying the class is dead because of a small daily nerf...
Just a hint, if your class is dead from a nerf to 1 daily... chances are it was too OP to begin with and yes, if it is truly dead maybe they need to rework the class... but from what I know, NO other class has a daily that strong and is THAT relied upon... Maybe im wrong...
Well the level 60 daily is HAMSTER, hence why many fell back on Lurkers Assault which is also getting nerfed to HAMSTER, Clerics Hammer does more damage and has more use than both dailies now. I cant comment on the other classes daily, but GF's have an ability to throw you 80 feet, make you scoop yourself out of the ground and taking 90% of your health and finishing you off just as you are getting out of the dirt. GWF's can run fast take 4v1 heal themselves considerably AND has the damage of former rogues. CW's can throw you across the map, choke you, hit you with a huge ice knife that consumes 80% of your HP (which is better than shocking execution) and that's just HAMSTER I can think off the top of my head. Other than the CW, the other classes also get more armor and 2 of them have a lot more HP's to boot.
I have kept my mouth shut about all these OP abilities and not cried and whined like a little ***** as some people on here, I just dealt with and had to learn to play and yes actually I might have to run from some classes instead of trying to take them on.
These are not small nerfs even to the daily, couple with previous nerfs (DF, DM, and SE nerfs) it does harm the class as whole.
Every MMO in existence has nerfed classes. Usually it goes in a circle and is endless. This is nothing new. If having to adapt ruins the game for you I am afraid every MMO will eventually disappoint you.
Only one MMO was really player-driven and that was WoW for a while. Once the $ train reveals itself, the crying nerfbergers make the powers-that-be cave because they are all a # driven system. It's all about player counts. They don't care that 80% of those players play for like 1 hour a week. They would rather please those players than the 5% who play 5+ hours a day.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
Yeah, and you know what? 60% more damage is way more than 60% more crit severity.
I am allowed to voice my disapproval, and the patch isn't live yet, but don't you worry you can have your precious little game and be a god king GWF with your character soon enough. I am sure the will pass this HAMSTER and GWF's when they get nerfed and people jump on you about balance and blah blah blah you can lament in your tears.
Only one MMO was really player-driven and that was WoW for a while. Once the $ train reveals itself, the crying nerfbergers make the powers-that-be cave because they are all a # driven system. It's all about player counts. They don't care that 80% of those players play for like 1 hour a week. They would rather please those players than the 5% who play 5+ hours a day.
I would dare say the game that WoW cloned would be a major MMO that was completely player driven, they didn't even have an Auction House or Vendors, you had to sit in a tunnel and spam for hours about things to sell or trade.
Couldn't agree more, I would kill at least 2 enemies using LA in PVP. Regularly 3 or more.
LA was by far the best PVP daily a rogue had, to say it was only good for PVE makes me think some rogues are pretty bad at pvp.
Honestly it was the only thing that would even let me have a chance at killing a decent GWF, bad or way undergeared players I could usually win with simple tricks... PVE it just let me kill the mob/boss faster really. If these nerfs go live, I am fully am expecting other nerfs that people cried about on TR's.
According to the preview shard, in addition to the changes LA also had its duration cut in half. So the next time someone whines about the rogues not killing the boss fast enough, you know why.
No way to separate PvP from PvE in a game based on D&D rules and abilities.
D&D is not designed to accommodate PvP.
PvP is really found on 1v1 combat.
RPGs are founded on 5-man groups of roles that support the individual strengths and weaknesses of each class against PvE.
You can't really complement those well.
Some proprietary license might be able to come up with powers only available in PvP areas.
But, I doubt WotC would allow a separate set of PvP powers for their games.
But, you know, anyone who thinks they have the answer should make their own game.
Well a TR who depend on LA to kill someone is probably a crappy TR (PvP wise).
The only true use of that daily was in PvE. I wouldn't mind it being nerfed as we have some other cool dailies that can still make our opponents suffer.
LA was hands down the best available daily in game and according to you, its only true use was for PVE. Yes I could see how using it to decimate multiple opponents in pvp was not really a true use.
Yeah, and you know what? 60% more damage is way more than 60% more crit severity.
It depends on how your stats are, about the 60%, but even still. To take a daily from 10 seconds of 60% damage to 7 seconds (at best) of 15% crit severity (on par of a lesser vorpal) its a severe nerf for a MELEE DPS class, and what little range a rogue did have it got nerfed hard too, then to top it off they nerfed the mechanics of stealth hard core. Basically imagine you are a GF and they just took your shield away.
Now couple this with the previous nerf of DF, DM, and SE (Shocking Execution). Which BTW, is not shocking at all, considering the clerics and wizards direct damage daily put that to shame in use and effectiveness.
I feel like the OP has no idea what he is talking about, he even got his facts about the daily wrong with both its new duration of 5 seconds and the fact that the old daily did 60% overall damage increase. So compare 15% CS which will be proced about 50% of the time you get a 7% damage increase down from 60% and now the duration is halved. Not only that but stealth now is depleted by all at wills draining all of the stealth that normally would be regenerated. AKA this is now one of the worst dailies in the game, also it can be interrupted/canceled by any form of stun/cc. So please OP say that is not a massive nerf and realize how wrong you are.
Op didnt even mention the HUGE nerf to Duelist Flurry. Pvp-wise, the skill should more or less have the same effect but this nerf was by no means a pvp balance thing. Resetting the bleed after each rotation at 10 stacks literally kills my dps. Getting a good DF bleed and keeping it was the best way tear down a boss quickly. Rogues are gonna kill so much more slowly now.....Devs could at least leave DF alone dammit. lol Broken GWF telling rogues to chill good one
Simply put, to those who know what they are talking about. this nerf is staggering and will kill groups in PvE and severely nerf every rogue in PvE and PvP as stealth was used as a big part of a rogues rotation to reach high single target dps.
Let's look at Pre and post changes...
Prechange Spellplague :
Rogue on Aboleth running a rotation of Impossible to Catch, Lashing Blade, Wicked Reminder encounters... Duelist Flurry / Cloud of Steel at will... Stealth....Lurkers Assault, Courage Breaker Daily.
Rogue using Duelist Flurry will rotate in and out of stealth to maximize Crit while applying Wicked Reminder to lessen the mobs defense to apply Lashing Blade from stealth and using Impossible to Catch to lower downtime of dodging and keep the DPS rolling.
Uses Courage Breaker to lower mobs damage potential and Lurkers Assault to maximize his damage to DPS the boss down so the adds do not over run the group.
Faster Damaging, lesser time for the group to risk dying.
Post nerf:
If you even decide to bring a rogue on the dungeon....
Rogues role will be undecided...
Rogue cannot use stealth to maximize DPS from stealth as stealth drops instantly and takes time to rebuild..
Lurkers does not apply the damage it once has previously and instead is equal in raising crit severity only slightly which you will see very little return on overall damage, not to mention it only lasts 7 seconds roughly so it is pointless to use.
This will bring you to basically face tanking with Wicked, and Lashing blade, which will not hit for much because your stealth does not build up nor will it stay on since you are continuously rolling DPS with Duelists and once you hit stealth for Duelists and try to squeeze in Lashing from stealth, your stealth will be gone before you could even apply Lashing.
DPS suffers, fight takes longer, one mess up by the group behind you ...instead of before, being only an annoyance, will now possibly destroy the fight and end the event with everyone's death.
They only needed to nerf Bait and Switch. That was the main culprit that was giving permastealth Rogues their permastealth. Instead, we get 3 gigantic and class-breaking nerfs with nothing to compensate for it.
They only needed to nerf Bait and Switch. That was the main culprit that was giving permastealth Rogues their permastealth. Instead, we get 3 gigantic and class-breaking nerfs with nothing to compensate for it.
Permastealth was a big problem but the whole class was kinda broke so you should be happy about balancing. I don't know why you want a compensation ? I mean you still are a great class these adjustments not nerfs were needed and you still are king of the Dps world so enjoy.
Like I said, REALLY hoping they remove even like 30% of the mobs from both bosses AND the entire run... Heck if they did it right, you can remove knocking off adds because killing will be a real viable strategy which will then mean more people can dps the boss instead of just 1 tr while 4 people manage adds...
SUCH a dumb strategy....
The true problem. With the changes to classes that were needed the next immediate step would be to address content the fights and how the classes perform together. All dungeons currently are bad and you needed exploited classes to make them bearable otherwise they are completely horrible to do. So a lot less adds and class balance might make dungeons actually fun at some point hopefully.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Comments
Good points.
Like I said, REALLY hoping they remove even like 30% of the mobs from both bosses AND the entire run... Heck if they did it right, you can remove knocking off adds because killing will be a real viable strategy which will then mean more people can dps the boss instead of just 1 tr while 4 people manage adds...
SUCH a dumb strategy....
They promised a new boss fighting system at Fury of the Feywild update. I'm hoping for the best because dungeons are getting boring and easy .
I actually have a level 60 mage, and guess what, I don't try to 1v1 people unless I have to. I focus on supporting my team with CC and RoE, because you know, its a team game.
As for dealing with stealth rogues, Steal time works nicely. They don't have Impossible to catch so they can't break out of the CC and if you hit with Steal time it reviles them through stealth, so you can move in for the choke -> ray of enfeeblement -> Iceknife death combo.
And again, I've no issue with nerfing perma-stealth build but these nerfs hit the core mechanics and cripple every single rogue. IF they wanted to nerf perma-stealth they should have targeted 'Shadow Strike' and 'Bait and Switch'. Why do the rest of us have to suffer because of one gimmicky build?
Agreed. Legit mechanics would be very interesting and fun... I dont even run things anymore since I have almost everything i could want, so I pvp for the daily for fun, then log off now...
IMO they could have nerfed shadow strike and B&S, but they decided to nerf stealth and LA for some reason in such a way that the whole class got trashed fo PVE, all thanks to whiners. Cant wait for gwf to get the attention of the crying little scrubs to see how hard the nerfbat will hit them, maybe they would nerf unstopable and regen and let the rage inflame the forums.
You don't know what you are talking about, a lesser vorpal chant is 12% and the next one up is 25%... that nullifies your comment in of itself. To further explain, it didn't add 60% crit severity, it added 60% damage and it was a daily. Building AP as a rogue is not as easy as other classes.
The new LA is 7 second lesser vorpal chant... lets not forget using at wills greatly diminishes your stealth now, on top of all that they made CoS worthless.
People who complain about TR never do.
Well the level 60 daily is HAMSTER, hence why many fell back on Lurkers Assault which is also getting nerfed to HAMSTER, Clerics Hammer does more damage and has more use than both dailies now. I cant comment on the other classes daily, but GF's have an ability to throw you 80 feet, make you scoop yourself out of the ground and taking 90% of your health and finishing you off just as you are getting out of the dirt. GWF's can run fast take 4v1 heal themselves considerably AND has the damage of former rogues. CW's can throw you across the map, choke you, hit you with a huge ice knife that consumes 80% of your HP (which is better than shocking execution) and that's just HAMSTER I can think off the top of my head. Other than the CW, the other classes also get more armor and 2 of them have a lot more HP's to boot.
I have kept my mouth shut about all these OP abilities and not cried and whined like a little ***** as some people on here, I just dealt with and had to learn to play and yes actually I might have to run from some classes instead of trying to take them on.
These are not small nerfs even to the daily, couple with previous nerfs (DF, DM, and SE nerfs) it does harm the class as whole.
Only one MMO was really player-driven and that was WoW for a while. Once the $ train reveals itself, the crying nerfbergers make the powers-that-be cave because they are all a # driven system. It's all about player counts. They don't care that 80% of those players play for like 1 hour a week. They would rather please those players than the 5% who play 5+ hours a day.
I am allowed to voice my disapproval, and the patch isn't live yet, but don't you worry you can have your precious little game and be a god king GWF with your character soon enough. I am sure the will pass this HAMSTER and GWF's when they get nerfed and people jump on you about balance and blah blah blah you can lament in your tears.
Couldn't agree more, I would kill at least 2 enemies using LA in PVP. Regularly 3 or more.
LA was by far the best PVP daily a rogue had, to say it was only good for PVE makes me think some rogues are pretty bad at pvp.
I would dare say the game that WoW cloned would be a major MMO that was completely player driven, they didn't even have an Auction House or Vendors, you had to sit in a tunnel and spam for hours about things to sell or trade.
Honestly it was the only thing that would even let me have a chance at killing a decent GWF, bad or way undergeared players I could usually win with simple tricks... PVE it just let me kill the mob/boss faster really. If these nerfs go live, I am fully am expecting other nerfs that people cried about on TR's.
D&D is not designed to accommodate PvP.
PvP is really found on 1v1 combat.
RPGs are founded on 5-man groups of roles that support the individual strengths and weaknesses of each class against PvE.
You can't really complement those well.
Some proprietary license might be able to come up with powers only available in PvP areas.
But, I doubt WotC would allow a separate set of PvP powers for their games.
But, you know, anyone who thinks they have the answer should make their own game.
sums up a lot of the "nerf TRs prz" threads on the forums. =/
LA was hands down the best available daily in game and according to you, its only true use was for PVE. Yes I could see how using it to decimate multiple opponents in pvp was not really a true use.
It depends on how your stats are, about the 60%, but even still. To take a daily from 10 seconds of 60% damage to 7 seconds (at best) of 15% crit severity (on par of a lesser vorpal) its a severe nerf for a MELEE DPS class, and what little range a rogue did have it got nerfed hard too, then to top it off they nerfed the mechanics of stealth hard core. Basically imagine you are a GF and they just took your shield away.
Now couple this with the previous nerf of DF, DM, and SE (Shocking Execution). Which BTW, is not shocking at all, considering the clerics and wizards direct damage daily put that to shame in use and effectiveness.
All I can say after seeing the patch is: 61 MM rogue ftw
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
Let's look at Pre and post changes...
Prechange Spellplague :
Rogue on Aboleth running a rotation of Impossible to Catch, Lashing Blade, Wicked Reminder encounters... Duelist Flurry / Cloud of Steel at will... Stealth....Lurkers Assault, Courage Breaker Daily.
Rogue using Duelist Flurry will rotate in and out of stealth to maximize Crit while applying Wicked Reminder to lessen the mobs defense to apply Lashing Blade from stealth and using Impossible to Catch to lower downtime of dodging and keep the DPS rolling.
Uses Courage Breaker to lower mobs damage potential and Lurkers Assault to maximize his damage to DPS the boss down so the adds do not over run the group.
Faster Damaging, lesser time for the group to risk dying.
Post nerf:
If you even decide to bring a rogue on the dungeon....
Rogues role will be undecided...
Rogue cannot use stealth to maximize DPS from stealth as stealth drops instantly and takes time to rebuild..
Lurkers does not apply the damage it once has previously and instead is equal in raising crit severity only slightly which you will see very little return on overall damage, not to mention it only lasts 7 seconds roughly so it is pointless to use.
This will bring you to basically face tanking with Wicked, and Lashing blade, which will not hit for much because your stealth does not build up nor will it stay on since you are continuously rolling DPS with Duelists and once you hit stealth for Duelists and try to squeeze in Lashing from stealth, your stealth will be gone before you could even apply Lashing.
DPS suffers, fight takes longer, one mess up by the group behind you ...instead of before, being only an annoyance, will now possibly destroy the fight and end the event with everyone's death.
GG Cryptic.
Permastealth was a big problem but the whole class was kinda broke so you should be happy about balancing. I don't know why you want a compensation ? I mean you still are a great class these adjustments not nerfs were needed and you still are king of the Dps world so enjoy.
The true problem. With the changes to classes that were needed the next immediate step would be to address content the fights and how the classes perform together. All dungeons currently are bad and you needed exploited classes to make them bearable otherwise they are completely horrible to do. So a lot less adds and class balance might make dungeons actually fun at some point hopefully.
The two we are currently allowing/merging/directing to are:
New Changes to Rogue.
Stealth Build Now Dead....
Please free free to express one's opinions there-in, RoC abiding.
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