Not as good as you and your name thats Void right as in the void in your head.
You claim you quit weeks ago why are you still so concerned with the game?
Nothing better to do with your lack of self control?
This game does not seem coercive the way he is describing it in that article.
If it were, it would be designed like this:
Get from level 0 (A) to level 20 (B) --> Free
Get from level 20 (B) to level 60 (C) --> $1
Enter an endgame dungeon (D) --> $500
That isn't this game at all. The stuff you can buy is convenience oriented. Yes, you can buy gear on the AH using zen to AD currency exchange and short cut the time to farm the gear yourself, but you can farm it yourself without paying a dime. So following the model i the article, the game is not designed in a coercive way.
Of course there is enticing stuff in the store that may make your gameplay less time consuming (mounts), may make some things more effective (companions, crafting assets) and so on. Some of that is enticing to some people. But it isn't coercive as described in the article.
I agree with the most. NW is not so coercive as other games, but it is not transparent. I know a lot of people who regret from buying the Heroes and Guardians Pack. The whole point is that all this F2P industry exploit the lack of will of young people who don't really know how hard is to earn money.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
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nick1sternMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 330Bounty Hunter
I agree with the most. NW is not so coercive as other games, but it is not transparent. I know a lot of people who regret from buying the Heroes and Guardians Pack. The whole point is that all this F2P industry exploit the lack of will of young people who don't really know how hard is to earn money.
Buyers remorse through lack of research and self control is not the same as being coerced.
just another way to blame others for your lack of self control/knowledge.
No clearly you do not know the menaing.
They did not force or coerce anyone into buying anything.
If you are so weak willed and impulsive and lack the ability
to make important financial decisions you should lock away
your credit card.
That way al those pretty new shiney things can not coerce you.
You seem to be trying to say that coercion is somehow equivalent to "force" which is not the case. Just because some people don't make a purchase (or simply cannot) doesn't mean the system is not coercive in nature.
The legal definition is very much separate from the common.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What gave you the idea that coercive systems had to have a 100% success rate to be considered so?
"to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>"
You seem to be trying to say that coercion is somehow equivalent to "force" which is not the case. Just because some people don't make a purchase (or simply cannot) doesn't mean the system is not coercive in nature.
The legal definition is very much separate from the common.
But it really isn't coercive in the way that article was describing. I pointed that out above.
I do agree with void that some younger players could be more easily preyed upon by this system because they are less mature and less able to exercise the kind of self-control to limit spending to a reasonable level, or avoid it altogether. But I think that is a maturity issue, not an issue of coercion whereby the game sucks you in and then pulls a bait and switch by making you pay a large amount to keep playing it. That's coercive, and is how quite a few mobile type F2P games work. It isn't how this game works.
What makes people rankle about this is that they are used to sub based games in the West where things like bags and mounts are generally not things you pay for (exceptions aside), and so they don't like it being expensive here. In reality these are not required to play, and can be bought with in-game currency as well. It's really just about the adjustment from a sub model and what people who played a lot, and invested a lot of time, could get for only $15 a month as compared with here, where it takes longer/more effort to do that in the game, and there are shortcuts using real life cash, if you want, as well as premium items.
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nick1sternMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 330Bounty Hunter
What gave you the idea that coercive systems had to have a 100% success rate to be considered so?
"to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>"
You seem to be trying to say that coercion is somehow equivalent to "force" which is not the case. Just because some people don't make a purchase (or simply cannot) doesn't mean the system is not coercive in nature.
The legal definition is very much separate from the common.
LOL WHAT??
of course force is required to rise to the level of coerce....
Threat of injury threat of harm to others threat of harm to reputation or business practice.
I suggest you look up the definition.
How can you be coerced into buying something you do not want or can not afford you can not.
The desire to keep up with the Jonses is not coercion it is Vanity.
If you feel coerced by someone else having it or thinking you need it
that is nothing more then a lack of self control.
Here actually let me make it simple for you....
From Blacks Law Dictionary the preeminent Law dictionary.
What is COERCION?
Compulsion; force; duress. It may be either actual, (direct or positive.) where physical force Is put upon a man to compel him to do an act against his will, or implied, (legal or constructive.) where the relation of the parties is such that one is under subjection to the other, and is thereby constrained to do what his free will would refuse.
You know you don't have to buy the thing if you don't want to, right?
I'm going to wait until the contents of the pack get seperate entries in the Zstore. If that doesn't happen, it's no big loss for me. Better things might end up being available anyway.
*sings* "I like Gammera! He's so neat!!! He is full of turtle meat!!!"
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
But it really isn't coercive in the way that article was describing. I pointed that out above.
I do agree with void that some younger players could be more easily preyed upon by this system because they are less mature and less able to exercise the kind of self-control to limit spending to a reasonable level, or avoid it altogether. But I think that is a maturity issue, not an issue of coercion whereby the game sucks you in and then pulls a bait and switch by making you pay a large amount to keep playing it. That's coercive, and is how quite a few mobile type F2P games work. It isn't how this game works.
What makes people rankle about this is that they are used to sub based games in the West where things like bags and mounts are generally not things you pay for (exceptions aside), and so they don't like it being expensive here. In reality these are not required to play, and can be bought with in-game currency as well. It's really just about the adjustment from a sub model and what people who played a lot, and invested a lot of time, could get for only $15 a month as compared with here, where it takes longer/more effort to do that in the game, and there are shortcuts using real life cash, if you want, as well as premium items.
Sorry I didn't mean to imply I thought this game was coercive I was just giving my opinion on the subject generally.
Any kind of reward in game for real money is a form of mild coercion, so it's just a matter of opinion when it crosses the line.
Personally I think that the prices are too high, but I don't think that PW really does anything I would consider deceptive.
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brendan03usMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Lol, How quickly people forgot about the original founder pack. You know the one where they had hurry buy now or buy before sale ends or something and then they kept changing the date the sale ends after people rushed to buy that dumb spider which they thought would be no more? And now the "founder" pack is still for sale but under a new name. How is this NOT coercive? Can somebody explain?:p
Queen of Dragon Server
Goddess Uniique, lvl 60 DC.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Lol, How quickly people forgot about the original founder pack. You know the one where they had hurry buy now or buy before sale ends or something and then they kept changing the date the sale ends after people rushed to buy that dumb spider which they thought would be no more? And now the "founder" pack is still for sale but under a new name. How is this NOT coercive? Can somebody explain?:p
Bait and switch is not the same as coercive. They arent saying that you need to buy the packs to enjoy all of the game, they arent saying you need to pay for the pack to get the new dungeon or Campaign feature. You dont need to buy any of the packs and no where do they say you need to.
Lol, How quickly people forgot about the original founder pack. You know the one where they had hurry buy now or buy before sale ends or something and then they kept changing the date the sale ends after people rushed to buy that dumb spider which they thought would be no more? And now the "founder" pack is still for sale but under a new name. How is this NOT coercive? Can somebody explain?:p
You are absolutely right, they play dirty. Other's may say otherwise, and I gave up on trying to convince them because as that old saying says: The worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"The harder the game, the better."
Bait and switch is not the same as coercive. They arent saying that you need to buy the packs to enjoy all of the game, they arent saying you need to pay for the pack to get the new dungeon or Campaign feature. You dont need to buy any of the packs and no where do they say you need to.
Yeah what they said was "buy now, before we change the name and sell the same thing". wait, they didn't...
They implied through the "limited time only" lingo, that those items were going to be exclusive, without ever using the word exclusive, so the rules lawyers cant have a field day on it.
Bait and switch is not a matter of need, its a matter of being sold exclusivity, then revoking said exclusivity. There are also a number of players in each MMO who let the initial hype die off and wait for items to go on sale before they buy them, who due to this "limited time only" lingo are forced to make a decision to either buy now or not be able to purchase that same pack later on. Then they learned that "limited time" really wasn't limited.
It is bait and switch, hook line and sinker. They were baited into making the decision to purchase due to "limited availability" then learned later that the availability was not limited as they were lead to believe.
Yeah what they said was "buy now, before we change the name and sell the same thing". wait, they didn't...
They implied through the "limited time only" lingo, that those items were going to be exclusive, without ever using the word exclusive, so the rules lawyers cant have a field day on it.
Bait and switch is not a matter of need, its a matter of being sold exclusivity, then revoking said exclusivity. There are also a number of players in each MMO who let the initial hype die off and wait for items to go on sale before they buy them, who due to this "limited time only" lingo are forced to make a decision to either buy now or not be able to purchase that same pack later on. Then they learned that "limited time" really wasn't limited.
It is bait and switch, hook line and sinker. They were baited into making the decision to purchase due to "limited availability" then learned later that the availability was not limited as they were lead to believe.
it's a good thing I don't like spiders or I would've got suckered into buying that pack too but they still got me I bought a ion stone for my useless heal bot DC lol
Queen of Dragon Server
Goddess Uniique, lvl 60 DC.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
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nick1sternMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 330Bounty Hunter
edited July 2013
Let me help al you QQers......
Points to the door.
Hate the game cryptic/pw so much there are other games and forums to go cry on about.
Let me help al you QQers......
Points to the door.
Hate the game cryptic/pw so much there are other games and forums to go cry on about.
Yeah, because its so hard to understand that someone can like a game while informing the company how changing specific behavior patters might make them want to spend money on their game. Blind defense is blind, welcome to the gray area.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited July 2013
I think that more price-points and a la carte selling of each component should be available, (with the expectation that buying each item separately would cost more than the packs).
For instance:
$10 pack could contain a T1 unicorn mount and a bag, but each would cost $6 by itself.
$30 pack would have a T2 unicorn, 2 character slots, and 2 bags.
And so on.
I think a big part of the problem is that people want some of what's in the pack, but don't want to be forced to pay for the other stuff they don't want.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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nick1sternMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 330Bounty Hunter
I think that more price-points and a la carte selling of each component should be available, (with the expectation that buying each item separately would cost more than the packs).
For instance:
$10 pack could contain a T1 unicorn mount and a bag, but each would cost $6 by itself.
$30 pack would have a T2 unicorn, 2 character slots, and 2 bags.
And so on.
I think a big part of the problem is that people want some of what's in the pack, but don't want to be forced to pay for the other stuff they don't want.
I agree but lets face it that type of breakdown usually occours months after initial release of the original pack,
and well after initial launch of the game in Most any MMO.
No one offers lower level pack immedietly that reduces sales.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
I agree but lets face it that type of breakdown usually occours months after initial release of the original pack,
and well after initial launch of the game in Most any MMO.
No one offers lower level pack immedietly that reduces sales.
If you had to guess, what % of people would you say buy they pack even though they only want 1 or a few of its components? Do you think it outstrips any profit they'd make on selling each component individually?
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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nick1sternMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 330Bounty Hunter
edited July 2013
I think it matters not what percent does buy even if they only want 1 or 2 items.
Fact is some will but more importantly the whales with more disposable income
will buy the pack. Then later on when individual Items become available others will then buy.
Alomost all fremium model MMOs double dip in this way.
PW/Cryptic are the only ones that actually know the sales goals for each pack at the price point they set.
Based on the Fact the Founders pack now of a differant name is still available at the $200 price
I would assume they met and exceded thier sales goals otherwise it would be gone or reduced.
The current pack nearly as valuable is offered at a reduced price to expand on thier sales to others
that could not afford or at least could not justify buying the other pack.
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Shady Business model? How is it shady? They are fully spelling out what you can get if you buy the pack. They arent hiding anything.
And Ethics? Really? I know of much worse F2P "business ethics" that make PWE look like saints. How would you like to pay for dungeons or quests? How about we start adding XP Potions, or Magic Item Drop increase potions? Want that new best sword? Gonna have to buy it.
Paying for one useless Elf race is not that bad in the scheme of F2P games.
oh right like saying the founders pack was available for a limited time then continuing to sell it? that's not shady at all.
Comments
Not as good as you and your name thats Void right as in the void in your head.
You claim you quit weeks ago why are you still so concerned with the game?
Nothing better to do with your lack of self control?
I agree with the most. NW is not so coercive as other games, but it is not transparent. I know a lot of people who regret from buying the Heroes and Guardians Pack. The whole point is that all this F2P industry exploit the lack of will of young people who don't really know how hard is to earn money.
"The harder the game, the better."
Buyers remorse through lack of research and self control is not the same as being coerced.
just another way to blame others for your lack of self control/knowledge.
What gave you the idea that coercive systems had to have a 100% success rate to be considered so?
"to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>"
You seem to be trying to say that coercion is somehow equivalent to "force" which is not the case. Just because some people don't make a purchase (or simply cannot) doesn't mean the system is not coercive in nature.
The legal definition is very much separate from the common.
But it really isn't coercive in the way that article was describing. I pointed that out above.
I do agree with void that some younger players could be more easily preyed upon by this system because they are less mature and less able to exercise the kind of self-control to limit spending to a reasonable level, or avoid it altogether. But I think that is a maturity issue, not an issue of coercion whereby the game sucks you in and then pulls a bait and switch by making you pay a large amount to keep playing it. That's coercive, and is how quite a few mobile type F2P games work. It isn't how this game works.
What makes people rankle about this is that they are used to sub based games in the West where things like bags and mounts are generally not things you pay for (exceptions aside), and so they don't like it being expensive here. In reality these are not required to play, and can be bought with in-game currency as well. It's really just about the adjustment from a sub model and what people who played a lot, and invested a lot of time, could get for only $15 a month as compared with here, where it takes longer/more effort to do that in the game, and there are shortcuts using real life cash, if you want, as well as premium items.
LOL WHAT??
of course force is required to rise to the level of coerce....
Threat of injury threat of harm to others threat of harm to reputation or business practice.
I suggest you look up the definition.
How can you be coerced into buying something you do not want or can not afford you can not.
The desire to keep up with the Jonses is not coercion it is Vanity.
If you feel coerced by someone else having it or thinking you need it
that is nothing more then a lack of self control.
Here actually let me make it simple for you....
From Blacks Law Dictionary the preeminent Law dictionary.
What is COERCION?
Compulsion; force; duress. It may be either actual, (direct or positive.) where physical force Is put upon a man to compel him to do an act against his will, or implied, (legal or constructive.) where the relation of the parties is such that one is under subjection to the other, and is thereby constrained to do what his free will would refuse.
Law Dictionary: What is COERCION? definition of COERCION (Black's Law Dictionary) http://thelawdictionary.org/coercion/#ixzz2Zd9ul2VJ
I'm going to wait until the contents of the pack get seperate entries in the Zstore. If that doesn't happen, it's no big loss for me. Better things might end up being available anyway.
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
Sorry I didn't mean to imply I thought this game was coercive I was just giving my opinion on the subject generally.
Any kind of reward in game for real money is a form of mild coercion, so it's just a matter of opinion when it crosses the line.
Personally I think that the prices are too high, but I don't think that PW really does anything I would consider deceptive.
I agree. The prices will likely come down as the game ages out of the first content a bit. It's very aggressively priced at the moment.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Bait and switch is not the same as coercive. They arent saying that you need to buy the packs to enjoy all of the game, they arent saying you need to pay for the pack to get the new dungeon or Campaign feature. You dont need to buy any of the packs and no where do they say you need to.
THIS! x10000000.............
You are absolutely right, they play dirty. Other's may say otherwise, and I gave up on trying to convince them because as that old saying says: The worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see.
"The harder the game, the better."
Yeah what they said was "buy now, before we change the name and sell the same thing". wait, they didn't...
They implied through the "limited time only" lingo, that those items were going to be exclusive, without ever using the word exclusive, so the rules lawyers cant have a field day on it.
Bait and switch is not a matter of need, its a matter of being sold exclusivity, then revoking said exclusivity. There are also a number of players in each MMO who let the initial hype die off and wait for items to go on sale before they buy them, who due to this "limited time only" lingo are forced to make a decision to either buy now or not be able to purchase that same pack later on. Then they learned that "limited time" really wasn't limited.
It is bait and switch, hook line and sinker. They were baited into making the decision to purchase due to "limited availability" then learned later that the availability was not limited as they were lead to believe.
it's a good thing I don't like spiders or I would've got suckered into buying that pack too but they still got me I bought a ion stone for my useless heal bot DC lol
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Points to the door.
Hate the game cryptic/pw so much there are other games and forums to go cry on about.
Yeah, because its so hard to understand that someone can like a game while informing the company how changing specific behavior patters might make them want to spend money on their game. Blind defense is blind, welcome to the gray area.
For instance:
$10 pack could contain a T1 unicorn mount and a bag, but each would cost $6 by itself.
$30 pack would have a T2 unicorn, 2 character slots, and 2 bags.
And so on.
I think a big part of the problem is that people want some of what's in the pack, but don't want to be forced to pay for the other stuff they don't want.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I agree but lets face it that type of breakdown usually occours months after initial release of the original pack,
and well after initial launch of the game in Most any MMO.
No one offers lower level pack immedietly that reduces sales.
If you had to guess, what % of people would you say buy they pack even though they only want 1 or a few of its components? Do you think it outstrips any profit they'd make on selling each component individually?
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Fact is some will but more importantly the whales with more disposable income
will buy the pack. Then later on when individual Items become available others will then buy.
Alomost all fremium model MMOs double dip in this way.
PW/Cryptic are the only ones that actually know the sales goals for each pack at the price point they set.
Based on the Fact the Founders pack now of a differant name is still available at the $200 price
I would assume they met and exceded thier sales goals otherwise it would be gone or reduced.
The current pack nearly as valuable is offered at a reduced price to expand on thier sales to others
that could not afford or at least could not justify buying the other pack.
oh right like saying the founders pack was available for a limited time then continuing to sell it? that's not shady at all.
Oh Im sorry, I thought this was about the Feywild pack, or is it ok to go off topic now?