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The PvP necessary changes
citizynking
Member Posts: 31 Arc User
So like many others, I have found myself falling in love with this game. The combat is just really fun, and feels /right/, yet there are some major hurdles that must be surpassed for it to truly reach its potential.
I do not care about PvE, so I am not going to be discussing that here. This is purely about PvP.
First off, this game /needs/ a matchmaking system. It needs a system which takes into account the gear score of both teams, possibly locks the equipped gear of players into place during a match, and penalizes players for leaving prematurely. As it is, people have a high chance of winding up on a team with an average gearscore of 6500 against a team with gearscores of 8000-10,000. There is nothing you can really do in these situations aside from getting farmed. Its just not fun, and a system should be put in place to mitigate this.
As for balance of the classes, I'd say the following is pretty much the jist of what needs to be done:
Control Wizard: Honestly? This class seems fine at the moment. I dont play one, so I dont know their needs and wants, but hopefully with the other suggestions I make they'll be in a fine place. Perhaps a slight, 5% lowering of their damage and thats it.
Trickster Rogue: The rogue has three problems at the moment. Stealth has the potential to last /way/ too long. I understand the damage is really low on a permastealth build, but that doesnt really matter when you can in theory outlast everyone. Even if it takes you 15 seconds instead of 10 to win 90% of the time, you're still winning 90% of the time.
On top of this, Rogue's burst is kind of rediculous right now. Losing 75% of our healthbar at the initiation of the fight is just plain rediculous. I've seen videos of Rogues consistently 2-3 shotting people in t1 purples.
Yet, Rogues are not without their faults. As is, they are just too freaking squishy. If the Devs were to /just/ lower their damage, they'd be in a horrible place. So why not lower that damage by a decent margin and raise up their survivability in such a way that they can still win fights, but it takes up to 7-8 seconds instead of 2-3?
Great Weapon Fighter: As is, Unstoppable is just too powerful. It has no cooldown, gives 50% damage reduction when full, and gives a nice chunk of temporary HP. Contrary to the opinion of many who give GWF a cursory glance, the class is supposed to be a tanky frontline DPS not a full on tank. Every description on the website and wiki that you find of the class describes it as something capable of dishing out damage on the front lines.
So, what do we do? We do /something/ to nerf Unstoppable. Perhaps lowering the damage reduction from 50% to something more reasonable like 35%? Or perhaps an internal cooldown, so that there's a period in which the GWF is truly vulnerable and unable to counter with Unstoppable?
On top of this, both remove the damage reduction for multiple targets hit by the GWF's AoE abilities and improve their single target damage. Currently they are just ridiculously out damaged by rogues. More so than a striker should outmatch a tanky-striker. Mid-high DPS and decent survivability.
Guardian Fighter: I'd say that their damage needs to be toned down ever so slightly, maybe 15%, and their CC needs to be reigned back. With the other changes, they'll still be in a fine place as PVP tanks. Annoying, distracting, and keeping you off the healers and DPS, but not doing the DPS's job for them.
I know this post will probably get some naysayers, but I really think with changes along these lines we could truly achieve a decent semblance of balance.
I do not care about PvE, so I am not going to be discussing that here. This is purely about PvP.
First off, this game /needs/ a matchmaking system. It needs a system which takes into account the gear score of both teams, possibly locks the equipped gear of players into place during a match, and penalizes players for leaving prematurely. As it is, people have a high chance of winding up on a team with an average gearscore of 6500 against a team with gearscores of 8000-10,000. There is nothing you can really do in these situations aside from getting farmed. Its just not fun, and a system should be put in place to mitigate this.
As for balance of the classes, I'd say the following is pretty much the jist of what needs to be done:
Control Wizard: Honestly? This class seems fine at the moment. I dont play one, so I dont know their needs and wants, but hopefully with the other suggestions I make they'll be in a fine place. Perhaps a slight, 5% lowering of their damage and thats it.
Trickster Rogue: The rogue has three problems at the moment. Stealth has the potential to last /way/ too long. I understand the damage is really low on a permastealth build, but that doesnt really matter when you can in theory outlast everyone. Even if it takes you 15 seconds instead of 10 to win 90% of the time, you're still winning 90% of the time.
On top of this, Rogue's burst is kind of rediculous right now. Losing 75% of our healthbar at the initiation of the fight is just plain rediculous. I've seen videos of Rogues consistently 2-3 shotting people in t1 purples.
Yet, Rogues are not without their faults. As is, they are just too freaking squishy. If the Devs were to /just/ lower their damage, they'd be in a horrible place. So why not lower that damage by a decent margin and raise up their survivability in such a way that they can still win fights, but it takes up to 7-8 seconds instead of 2-3?
Great Weapon Fighter: As is, Unstoppable is just too powerful. It has no cooldown, gives 50% damage reduction when full, and gives a nice chunk of temporary HP. Contrary to the opinion of many who give GWF a cursory glance, the class is supposed to be a tanky frontline DPS not a full on tank. Every description on the website and wiki that you find of the class describes it as something capable of dishing out damage on the front lines.
So, what do we do? We do /something/ to nerf Unstoppable. Perhaps lowering the damage reduction from 50% to something more reasonable like 35%? Or perhaps an internal cooldown, so that there's a period in which the GWF is truly vulnerable and unable to counter with Unstoppable?
On top of this, both remove the damage reduction for multiple targets hit by the GWF's AoE abilities and improve their single target damage. Currently they are just ridiculously out damaged by rogues. More so than a striker should outmatch a tanky-striker. Mid-high DPS and decent survivability.
Guardian Fighter: I'd say that their damage needs to be toned down ever so slightly, maybe 15%, and their CC needs to be reigned back. With the other changes, they'll still be in a fine place as PVP tanks. Annoying, distracting, and keeping you off the healers and DPS, but not doing the DPS's job for them.
I know this post will probably get some naysayers, but I really think with changes along these lines we could truly achieve a decent semblance of balance.
Post edited by citizynking on
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Comments
1- No, match-making is NOT needed.
2- GWF are OP.
3- Everything else is fine as it is.
Here for the build+guide
2.CW compared to TR (dmg&survivability)
Survivability
CW has one more blink but the TR has stealth ... i say TR just won that one but you still think TR's are "just too freaking squishy" but CW are fine
DPS
CW have range but it is of no use cuz TR have stealth and you need to get close(so no bonus there for the CW), and lets not compare base dmg cuz TR is 1 target DPS orientated and has the ability to take 90% of a CW with first hit... so from all that u think CW dmg should be nerfed?
There are some gwf's that can kill 2-3 people at a time. Mine is one of them. I can do that to other gwf's. Its a matter of build / playstyle (my set is roughtly 450k ad in total)
Also, if you wait till full to use unstoppable for 50% damage reduction, its often you will be knocked down, and hit by many of the enemy team, and never even get to use it. you had pretty much better use it whenever you can.
It lasts a lesser duration also, than it takes to get your determination back up (even with feats / powers) (class feature to raise determination in combat is broken also, etc)
Another fact of it, gaining determination is about the same as life loss. 100% determination, is 50% of your total health lost. It does not matter if you are tanky or squishy. Just that tanks can last a bit better, use healing to their advantage, and a teams healer. Their damage going this defensive, is butt. compared to every other class including healer.
However, they can whittle people down and be rather a pest to fight, and that is a general trend of people that can actually play the class.
the death per second (or damage per second as it were) builds die horridly fast even with unstoppable up.
knockdown can keep a gwf from ever using unstoppable too. And tr's can oneshot them whether in unstoppable or not. Healers are the only ones with no tactics *but a daily* to deal with them constantly.
On the stance of tr's.. they have skills that make them immune to damage. a few that makes them immune to control. Hide skill that can be permed to make you hard to fight against. They also have 75% crit severity, which is 75% damage reduction to any attack they take, when deflection pops, which is why the better rogues have high deflect.
Defense isn't needed, because they tank very well as it is with their immunities/dodges/hide. Pure dps specced rogues can tank bosses with ease.
cw damage also, is horribly low. Thei higher level they get, the lower the damage their new skills are. Some of their later game encounters, hit for the same damage as their at-wills.
I personally think their damage is fine this low, especially if they put on a perf vorpal, stack crit, then power, with some life steal, and lots of control, and good dodge ability and timing.
a tr has to make a mistake, to get squished, and that crit severity will probably save them.
So, you're gonna be hard-pressed to force the classes to be balanced for PvP.
Highly unlikely to happen with powers based on any Edition of D&D.
The foundation of D&D is designed around a small party of diverse classes complementing each other in PvE combat.
That's the balance we can expect.
They are OP. My armor enchantment is roughly 4-5 million AD (greater soulforged). If that's what you wanted for credibility. Otherwise my weapon is 1.2m etc etc. GWF are OP. If gear worth is what you wanted for credibility, you have it there.
FYI: A tr never tanked anything, they avoid stuff. Only classes which can actually "tank" are gwf and gf (at lvl 60)
Here for the build+guide
wtf are you talking about?
what "skills" that make you immune to damage and control? I only know of one
perma-stealth rogues have 1 encounter because the other two which are used to gain stealth do not do damage, the clone doesn't fight with you
so he has 1 encounter for doing good damage, 1 at-will which does good damage and the second at-will is either one that does not do a lot of damage or one which is easy to miss with + 1 good daily which can be interrupted and 1 good daily which is only good when the target has less than 70% health
and what has crit severity have to do with deflection?
TR's don't tank bosses, they kite, trick with their clone and use stealth to not get hit
1) If you are getting 1 shotted by a rogue... it's his gear is better than yours
2) If a rogue is using perma stealth have you DC use sunburst or your rogue use Path of Blade
3) If you are getting controlled all the time by a CW change tactics...
4) Start making teams of balance and you will see that none of the classes are OP.
Two rogues together can just about kill any single target they want...
So can two GFs, two GWFs, two CWs, etc etc etc (except maybe DCs, but they aren't there for that anyway)
And you can still do a divide and conquer against PUGs... IF you are more skilled.
But a team that rolls together tends to dominate together... unless of course they are out-specced or out-geared
I play a rogue and you get a 4or5 second immunity if you do Impossible to Catch then go into Stealth
You get 4 sec damage immunity if you use ITC from stealth, and not as you stated.
CW is not underpowered in a group. In fact a good CW is one of the most useful members in a team... next to DC.... can he one on one... urr NO!.... but it's not Deathmatch! It's Domination... that's why it's so easy for pre-made's to dominate PUGs... they understand that... it should be always 5v5 or at least 4v5 if you have a runner.
Everything, despite class strengths, seemed fairly balanced.
But once you hit 60 it becomes non stop premades, with people who have obviously maxed their gear, trolling casuals.
My only option to compete is to drop $200 to get the enchants and max my gear. Im sorry, but its just easier to quit lvl 60 pvp and roll another char. Nothing about this game merits spending $200 on one char just to feel like im on an even footing.
GG those who have been playing and are still playing since beta, trolling lvl 60 pvp 24/7, you win.
And this is another point why CW's suck in PvP - Domination. You gotta stand on the capture point to capture it (sorry for tautology), and CW is got focused first 'cause of squishiness, and if he stands on the CP he will be probably dead in the next few seconds, and even astral shield won't save him.
I know and I've said it, that I only know about 1 encounter which gives immunity not several of them like @kiadannah stated
1. I have a DC with GS of 12.2k, nothing to do with having a low GS. If a TR is a DPS one with good gearscore & (Perfect) Vorpal/Greater Plague than you're just pretty ****ed ^^. Lashing Blade pretty much hits me more than 60% HP cause it's 100% crit in stealth (talking about those 10mil AD+ TR's) and than the DC has some defense, CW's should be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by a high GS TR. But my point is, nothing to do with your gear DPS TR's can do a lot of DPS (like every class can actually).
2.That argument is getting boring. Sunburst is first of all a bad Encounter, only usefull to push mobs from cliff in PvE and at the start (lack of any better). Path of the Blade is just like Sunburst just a small range attack, the people that know how to play **** Perm-Stealth TR's won't get even in range of those attacks. Oh and some of them do BIG DPS, it's not true that all do low damage. Especially the ones with greater tene's equipped.
If the "target lock" system would be faster, than I at least can use a attack buuut it's so slow and bugged (some strange target bug, can't see there name and HP either at that moment) sometimes that TR's can jump in Stealth back in less than a sec and that's not enough to get a lock and use a attack. Especially with the lag, I see the animation but no cooldown and damage. 1v1 vs a good TR using Perm Stealth is just silly, at least with a DC.
Oh yesterday a Perm-Stealth TR of GS of 8,4k GS had like 15-0. He bragged actually about his low GS. Oh don't come with the standard "l2p" argument, it's getting old. I play a lot of PvP and yes I also have a TR on my account. I have no problems with the high DPS, as I can one shot people also with my DC. But that Perm-Stealth/Not Lockable is just killing the fun, I don't even get why people like such cheesy builds (I don't use this with my TR).
Oh and I'm talking about the "know how to play" perm-stealth TR's, not the noobs which indeed can be killed easily ^^.
Oh I can tell you if I team up with a good healing DC there's no problem for a single target. But 2v1 with equal skills and gear should always win easily no matter the class lol. Combat Advantage + 2 ppl doing damage is pretty auch..
And to the TR's, if you think better make a video. Would be amusing actually.
I meant when i posted that 2 v 2 With a cw and tr on one side, the tr and cw would Almost always win because of their skillsets.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?405071-PVP-Suggestions-To-the-Devs-if-you-want-to-fix-PVP
I sure as hell dont like this "I'm rock, scissors is fine, nerf paper" mentality that seems to have completely permeated the PVP community ever since WoW got big. Nobody wants to win by a hair's breath, and nobody wants losing (aka, fairness) to actually be a possibility. Just look at all the permastealth rogues who constantly defend their tactic. Or the sentinel GWFs who tell you to L2P while they're regenerating through your entire rotation.
If you want to stomp people without a challenge, then I consider you to be a pathetic loser that needs to go take up bug extermination as a career choice. Though careful, you'll likely get stung at some point and start arguing to nobody who cares that nature is OP and needs a nerf.
As for this idea that the game shouldnt be balanced around PvP, I think thats bull. As long as every class can actually contribute to completing a dungeon, who cares how balanced they are? Oh, so you can wave your DPS meter e-peen at everyone who doesn't care?
On top of this, the two are pretty much synonymous. If all the classes are equal on terms of capability in a combat situation, with the fighters being tanky damage, the rogues being squishy damage, the CWs having more CC, the GFs being tankier, and the DCs having more heals, then how the hell does this not mean they're balanced in a dungeon scenario?
If you are going to talk about PvP, you need to put it in context. This thread is not about endgame geared PvP, and anyone who has participated in it knows it.
PinkSugar, lvl 60 CW.
Baby Cakes, lvl 60 GWF.
*******, lvl 60 TR.
Premium Juicebox, lvl 60 CW.
Pink Exxxtacy, Ranger
There is NO pvp in Neverwinter.
Each class is designed to be great at their role of supporting one another in a party against PvE.
That's the role in roleplaying.
D&D classes aren't designed to be equally effective solo or against one another.
I have been told the nonrogue population just needs to learn to play. Actually I have been told many many times by various rogues, wonder about that!
This always seriously makes me LOL. When you see a TR defending the balance of TRs...
In all honesty though its not NECESSARILY the TR that is overpowered but the enchants that make them that way. Just like the posters above have said, its not a rank 5 + lesser vorpal enchant TR thats OP... its the GTE + Perf Vorpal TRs that essentially 1 shot you before even being seen...
Its the same thing that makes Sent GWfs so Godly... The GTE enchants...
Its the same thing that makes GFs so powerful, GTE enchants... Its just so much burst damage, that some classes just dont stand a chance. When you have a balanced team with 1 of each class and you go up against 2 GF 2 GWF and 1 TR, you can bet that almost anything you try, you will lose...
D&D orginially is a PvDM (Player vs. Dungeon Master) game. Playing with or against a DM is completely different than the MMORPG fights against computer played enviroment. D&D fights are also not "action" but much more tactical, like a strategy game / table top.
Though, there is always the options for players to kill each other, but it's not in focus.
Until 4E there was no real class balance. Casters started weak but become strong compared to mudane characters at higher levels. In 4E, there is much more belance.
Escpacially GFs are like a CWs in plate armor with rogue damage and perma block. They should do at least 50% less damage on all skills, their cooldown on knockbacks should be increased by 50%. If they block, they should not be able to resist CC (hello? since when spells are blocked by a lol shield?) and should not be allowed to move at all. And even with these nerfs, they would be redicoulous overpowered, because they heal themself for more then a cleric even can hope for.
Btw. I'm no rogue, I'm a DC.
Gotta disagree and ask for the opposite. Conqueror Guardians are glass cannons in a sense. They are basically burst rogues without the stealth, and a little group utility. Its fun, but easily countered and killed. That's fine. No fix/nerf needed. Its been dealt with already if you read patch notes and follow along.
The problem is tanky defensive built Guardians go into PvP and at lower levels they are annoying, can stay alive a long time, distract a bunch etc. but at 60 it starts to become obvious how useless they are as defense build. Its the same problem heal spec healers have. They cannot keep up with the pounding. Heal spec healers need a pvp buff and tank spec tanks need a pvp buff. The rest is pretty well balanced for dps...just find some friend, get some teamwork, and some gear obviously and you are ok.
Wrong wrong wrong. The guardian either builds for burst and has encounters for that or he has the control encounters to knockdown and knockback. If he is controlling you he is not bursting you. And in either case his shield breaks very quickly under any kind of pressure.
The problem in a lot of cases is broken OP enchants making things really unfair, not any class itself, but the unstoppable GWF is a bit too brutal yeah