As if your post was any more useful here. What difference does it make if he understand devs have different departments? There's a moderator that organizes pertinent information for both teams. Both teams probably visit GENERAL discussion if they visit the forums at all. So?
Exactly. Are we to believe that they have teams that do all the mapping work, graphics work, etc. that a content expansion requires but they don't have a team capable of doing bug testing and editing code so that those bugs go away? That they don't have a team capable of putting in basic content that players have been wanting for quite a while instead of focusing on <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people aren't asking for? That it would require far more work than the aforementioning mapping, graphics, etc.?
But in the end, all it really boils down to is this:
Do they not have people on their staff capable of feeding useful information about what they're working on to a playerbase that has starved to death and are dying off? When you can't even do that much, that just tells people that you AREN'T working on anything that is needed and wanted by the playerbase. And therein lies the source of a lot of discontent.
The OP seemed to suggest that the company redirect 100% of their assets to one task. That idea itself is flawed. And what does visiting the forums have to do with anything? They don't use the forums to direct their workflow.
Please answer my question.. How were you more helpful than a troll?
That's like saying: all the players know how to throw the ball, therefore anyone should be able to pitch as well as the pitcher.
No its like saying any programmer should know how to program. I know this. There isnt anything special or different in a game engine when fixing a line of code or adding a new line of code.
No its like saying any programmer should know how to program. I know this. There isnt anything special or different in a game engine when fixing a line of code or adding a new line of code.
In principal I agree, but when it comes to large scale/complicated projects it's really not that simple. Under your premise, you're suggesting that the guy who writes Notepad.exe would be just as capable of debugging something in the kernel as a kernel engineer.
In principal I agree, but when it comes to large scale/complicated projects it's really not that simple. Under your premise, you're suggesting that the guy who writes Notepad.exe would be just as capable of debugging something in the kernel as a kernel engineer.
Here I am going to give you an actual accurate analogy. You have a baking shop and in that baking shop you have your bakers and maybe a pastry chef or two. Those pastry chefs are just specialized bakers yes? Just because they focus on pastries does not mean they lost all sense of how to bake as well.
The new content team is very very capable of doing bug fixes despite them having more of a focus of adding new content.
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Ah, so they shouldn't be allowed to do both things at once? The content team should totally just sit on their hands and not release what they've been working on, just so they can wait for the bug team to catch up? Gotcha!
Know what they could do? Properly test the things they are "fixing", so there aren't even more bugs and exploits. They could even have fewer people working on the zen <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and hire more to work on actually fixing the game. I'd bet that the zen team is bigger than the bug team. They could even tell the content team to take a break, and break the game for us, so we can fix it, BEFORE it goes live. But, they won't. Why? Because they are just a little bit too money hungry. They can't see past the dollars.
Not even talking about you in the slightest. I was referring to the secondary OP.
The problem with this analogy is one thing. The game itself is being programmed in one language using one game engine. If a programmer knows how to create content for a game you can be damned sure they know how to do bug fixes as well.
Yes, as long as they're all programmers -- but that's kinda the point here: artists and animators and story writers and designers aren't necessarily programmers. And even if they are technically qualified for that work, they might not have any recent experience with coding at all, much less any familiarity with this particular game's code.
Hell, even adding a bunch of experienced programmers would likely slow the process of fixing bugs, at least in the short term, as they're brought up to speed. It's easy to say that Cryptic should reallocate all of its resources towards the biggest problem du jour, but in practice it's not really feasible. A game studio isn't an emergency room; a triage approach to fixing bugs might do more harm than good.
All of that said, I do understand people's frustration. It does sort of feel like Cryptic's pushing new stuff out and asking us to buy it, when the stuff we've already bought (or not) is still unpolished. That's Cryptic's cross to bear, if they fail to fix things in a timely fashion; ultimately, and fairly or not, customers will judge future purchases based on their experience with (or the reputation of) past releases.
Here I am going to give you an actual accurate analogy. You have a baking shop and in that baking shop you have your bakers and maybe a pastry chef or two. Those pastry chefs are just specialized bakers yes? Just because they focus on pastries does not mean they lost all sense of how to bake as well.
The new content team is very very capable of doing bug fixes despite them having more of a focus of adding new content.
That is a reasonable analogy, though I'm not sure you have the direction of specialization going in the right direction. What if the bug fixers are more analogous to the pastry chefs?
Either way, now we would have to discuss/theorize on the impact of interrupting and redirecting workflows.
Not impossible, yes, but I wouldn't expect many project managers to resort to something so drastic.
That is a reasonable analogy, though I'm not sure you have the direction of specialization going in the right direction. What if the bug fixers are more analogous to the pastry chefs?
Either way, now we would have to discuss/theorize on the impact of interrupting and redirecting workflows.
Not impossible, yes, but I wouldn't expect many project managers to resort to something so drastic.
Yeah Im not saying its probably going to happen anytime soon, as it is just more feasible of a strategy to make new content and fix content at the same time. Delegating resources to maximize work effort is the goal.
Know what they could do? Properly test the things they are "fixing", so there aren't even more bugs and exploits. They could even have fewer people working on the zen <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and hire more to work on actually fixing the game. I'd bet that the zen team is bigger than the bug team. They could even tell the content team to take a break, and break the game for us, so we can fix it, BEFORE it goes live. But, they won't. Why? Because they are just a little bit too money hungry. They can't see past the dollars.
Lotta wild speculation and accusations in there. I'd say, in terms of finding bugs, that 10,000's of creative players "working" 24/7 are far more capable of finding all the possible bugs than a few employees who work 40h/week.
The new content team is very very capable of doing bug fixes despite them having more of a focus of adding new content.
They are, I would imagine, but that isn't where they are being allocated. I wouldn't be surprised if bug fixers have been allocated to working on new content, with the update coming up.
There are just as many clamouring for new content as there are for bug fixes. There are only so many programmers to go around. They have to set priorities. Not everyone is going to be happy with the priorities they selected.
But, all we can really do about it is deal with it or go elsewhere, as I doubt they will adjust their priorities due to the numerous complaint threads, and if they did which should they listen to, the 'lack of bug fixes' ones or the 'lack of content' ones.
It's not so easy to juggle all these expectations as people like to think it is.
Ah yes, so when people are getting fed-up due to misunderstanding how the software development process really works, that *totally* makes their rage legit!
I don't care to understand the software development process! I want to play a game that is something close to a finished product. If they have a group of devs working on bug fixes and another working on an expansion they should shift the expansion team to assist the others. WHEN the basic feats, spells , skills, mechanics etc are actually fixed then release an expansion.
I know a bunch of blind defenders will jump on me but honestly this released game is less polished than many early betas. This team doesn't even have a presence on the boards to communicate or let us know they are even listening! It doesn't cost much for an hourly employee or two who could do that.
For those of you who will immediately want to throw the "free game" BS at me please save it!
I don't care to understand the software development process! I want to play a game that is something close to a finished product. If they have a group of devs working on bug fixes and another working on an expansion they should shift the expansion team to assist the others. WHEN the basic feats, spells , skills, mechanics etc are actually fixed then release an expansion.
I know a bunch of blind defenders will jump on me but honestly this released game is less polished than many early betas. This team doesn't even have a presence on the boards to communicate or let us know they are even listening! It doesn't cost much for an hourly employee or two who could do that.
For those of you who will immediately want to throw the "free game" BS at me please save it!
Unfortunately, this spells out (rather bluntly in bold) to all the common customers who do not care about all the excuses the company gives.
All they want is to play a good game, and if the game is well maintained, the customers will pay. They will not give a second thought to complain or leave the game if the company cannot projects a healthy image of repairing bugs and promoting good gameplay.
Defenders can defend all they want. Common customers have the common sense to understand what is real and what is BS.
Common customers have the common sense to understand what is real and what is BS.
Nobody knows what the common customers of an MMO think with any certainty on any issue, as the vast majority of them don't post on MMO forums to express their views.
Nobody knows what the common customers of an MMO think with any certainty on any issue, as the vast majority of them don't post on MMO forums to express their views.
Common sense dictates that if the customer like the game/product, the customer will support the game/product. If the customer dislikes the game/product, the customer will quit the game/product.
Only customers with more than common senses (aka the vocal minority) will post at the forum, or the company's support website, or whatever. See all the complain threads in this forum?
Common sense dictates that if the customer like the game/product, the customer will support the game/product. If the customer dislikes the game/product, the customer will quit the game/product.
Only customers with more than common senses (aka the vocal minority) will post at the forum, or the company's support website, or whatever. See all the complain threads in this forum?
Your first sentence is quite correct.
Your second sentence is not backed up by the quality of the majority of posts I see on this forum on both sides of the various issues discussed. There are indeed many complaint threads, but many of them lack substance, and many of them are just ranting gibberish. A lot of them don't make sense at all, never mind common sense. The same can be said for many of the posts countering the complaint posts from the opposite viewpoint.
Then there are the posts that are of high quality on both sides of the issue. However, these make up the minority of the vocal minority that post on the forums.
Your second sentence is not backed up by the quality of the majority of posts I see on this forum on both sides of the various issues discussed. There are indeed many complaint threads, but many of them lack substance, and many of them are just ranting gibberish. A lot of them don't make sense at all, never mind common sense. The same can be said for many of the posts countering the complaint posts from the opposite viewpoint.
Then there are the posts that are of high quality on both sides of the issue. However, these make up the minority of the vocal minority that post on the forums.
Ah, but you have to understand, customers do not need "quality" to bring their complains across. Quantity is all that matters in the World of Money, as proven in this forum itself. Individual customers believe their own complain is more important than other customers, thus creating one themselves. See all the pack complains in this forum?
Ah, but you have to understand, customers do not need "quality" to bring their complains across. Quantity is all that matters in the World of Money, as proven in this forum itself. Individual customers believe their own complain is more important than other customers, thus creating one themselves. See all the pack complains in this forum?
I do see all the complaints. What I don't see is any evidence of that being a successful approach. All that matters in the World of Money is profit. All that matters to developers looking for ideas from the forum is substantive quality.
Let's also not forget that negative complainers are also statistically more likely to vocalize their complaint.
It's not so much that negative complainers are more likely to complain. It's that those with complaints are more likely to post on forums than those without complaint. Complaints, in and of themselves, aren't negative. Substantive constructive complaints can be quite positive and useful. Many, though, seem to like to post the complaint part and seem to forget or can't be bothered with the substantive and constructive elements that may have given some credence to their complaint.
It's not so much that negative complainers are more likely to complain. It's that those with complaints are more likely to post on forums than those without complaint. Complaints, in and of themselves, aren't negative. Substantive constructive complaints can be quite positive and useful. Many, though, seem to like to post the complaint part and seem to forget or can't be bothered with the substantive and constructive elements that may have given some credence to their complaint.
or we already tried that at some point in the past, got told by various white knight elements to either love the game or bugger off, and eventually lost all patience for bothering to be tactful.
Uh, you guys do know that there are completely different teams of people who work on new content and bug fixes, right? It ain't just one homogenous group of 'devs'.
Who cares what stupid dumb dev team is working on what just fix the game already its been how long now and still major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> isnt fixed.
sycophantic fanboys wont make the game better.
So being tacful from the start didnt get anything fixed so now its just frustration.
I love that word "sycophantic" it does go perfect with the fanboys and their oh i love the game oh its perfect slop they post. What about give them a break they have different teams working on different parts of the game. Ohhh i love PVP its so much fun all the botz i dont see botz. Ohh they ban botz they are doing everything possible. Its not the dev's fault Ohhh please ooohhhh.
And if this new expansion fails like everything else new launch from them works just as dandy as anything new to this game. It will really be bad for the game. MOre people will leave the game. The pop will rise for short bit but the flaws will send them packing along with even more players.
Who cares what stupid dumb dev team is working on what just fix the game already its been how long now and still major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> isnt fixed.
sycophantic fanboys wont make the game better.
Ah yes, and yet another "RARGH! FIX IT ALREADY! ERMAGERD!" is a totally helpful feedback. Gotcha.
or we already tried that at some point in the past, got told by various white knight elements to either love the game or bugger off, and eventually lost all patience for bothering to be tactful.
The is some frustration going on as well to be sure. However, that is no reason to be overly antagonistic to others with a view that differs from your own. They are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.
For some, if the game isn't quite where they want it... for example, their favourite class isn't out yet... it may be prudent for them to play something else until what they want is released, so that they can return and better enjoy the game. The f2p model allows that kind of approach without causing undue penalty to most.
There are people on both sides of various issues that aren't tactful with those on the other side. Emulating this kind of behaviour consistently just serves to drag down the level of conversation further, making it less likely for any monitoring of the discussions by the developers, when they do so, to find any ideas and suggestions worth reading.
It's hard to remain constructive though, in a sea of negativity and petty jabs directed from one to another, just because they have a differing view on a subject, or because the person one is chatting with is just insulting and divisive by nature.
But, endless cycles of ever escalating negativity between the various camps of supporters and detractors aren't going to do anything useful for anyone, and certainly won't lead to many game improvements based on forum suggestions by players.
Who cares what stupid dumb dev team is working on what just fix the game already its been how long now and still major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> isnt fixed.
You are right, they should take all the artists and animators who are creating new races and classes, and make them FIX BUGS IN CODE, because professional artists totally know code like professional programers.
While they are at it, they could have customer support make everyone some ice cream.
You are right, they should take all the artists and animators who are creating new races and classes, and make them FIX BUGS IN CODE, because professional artists totally know code like professional programers.
While they are at it, they could have customer support make everyone some ice cream.
I LoL'ed,
Truly anyone who knows someone who works n software development knows its made up of various teams who have very specific tasks so screaming and stamping feet demanding they shift all their resources because someone on this forum has figured out that is the way to solve a problem is ludicrous.
Personally this thread has been entertaining. Something to giggle over while drinking my coffee.
Comments
Exactly. Are we to believe that they have teams that do all the mapping work, graphics work, etc. that a content expansion requires but they don't have a team capable of doing bug testing and editing code so that those bugs go away? That they don't have a team capable of putting in basic content that players have been wanting for quite a while instead of focusing on <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people aren't asking for? That it would require far more work than the aforementioning mapping, graphics, etc.?
But in the end, all it really boils down to is this:
Do they not have people on their staff capable of feeding useful information about what they're working on to a playerbase that has starved to death and are dying off? When you can't even do that much, that just tells people that you AREN'T working on anything that is needed and wanted by the playerbase. And therein lies the source of a lot of discontent.
Please answer my question.. How were you more helpful than a troll?
It got him to re-phrase his complaint/suggestion in a clearer statement?
No its like saying any programmer should know how to program. I know this. There isnt anything special or different in a game engine when fixing a line of code or adding a new line of code.
If you're referring to me, you didn't get me to do ****. That was a conversation between me and viking.
In principal I agree, but when it comes to large scale/complicated projects it's really not that simple. Under your premise, you're suggesting that the guy who writes Notepad.exe would be just as capable of debugging something in the kernel as a kernel engineer.
Not even talking about you in the slightest. I was referring to the secondary OP.
Here I am going to give you an actual accurate analogy. You have a baking shop and in that baking shop you have your bakers and maybe a pastry chef or two. Those pastry chefs are just specialized bakers yes? Just because they focus on pastries does not mean they lost all sense of how to bake as well.
The new content team is very very capable of doing bug fixes despite them having more of a focus of adding new content.
Know what they could do? Properly test the things they are "fixing", so there aren't even more bugs and exploits. They could even have fewer people working on the zen <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and hire more to work on actually fixing the game. I'd bet that the zen team is bigger than the bug team. They could even tell the content team to take a break, and break the game for us, so we can fix it, BEFORE it goes live. But, they won't. Why? Because they are just a little bit too money hungry. They can't see past the dollars.
LOL
Yes, as long as they're all programmers -- but that's kinda the point here: artists and animators and story writers and designers aren't necessarily programmers. And even if they are technically qualified for that work, they might not have any recent experience with coding at all, much less any familiarity with this particular game's code.
Hell, even adding a bunch of experienced programmers would likely slow the process of fixing bugs, at least in the short term, as they're brought up to speed. It's easy to say that Cryptic should reallocate all of its resources towards the biggest problem du jour, but in practice it's not really feasible. A game studio isn't an emergency room; a triage approach to fixing bugs might do more harm than good.
All of that said, I do understand people's frustration. It does sort of feel like Cryptic's pushing new stuff out and asking us to buy it, when the stuff we've already bought (or not) is still unpolished. That's Cryptic's cross to bear, if they fail to fix things in a timely fashion; ultimately, and fairly or not, customers will judge future purchases based on their experience with (or the reputation of) past releases.
That is a reasonable analogy, though I'm not sure you have the direction of specialization going in the right direction. What if the bug fixers are more analogous to the pastry chefs?
Either way, now we would have to discuss/theorize on the impact of interrupting and redirecting workflows.
Not impossible, yes, but I wouldn't expect many project managers to resort to something so drastic.
Yeah Im not saying its probably going to happen anytime soon, as it is just more feasible of a strategy to make new content and fix content at the same time. Delegating resources to maximize work effort is the goal.
Lotta wild speculation and accusations in there. I'd say, in terms of finding bugs, that 10,000's of creative players "working" 24/7 are far more capable of finding all the possible bugs than a few employees who work 40h/week.
They are, I would imagine, but that isn't where they are being allocated. I wouldn't be surprised if bug fixers have been allocated to working on new content, with the update coming up.
There are just as many clamouring for new content as there are for bug fixes. There are only so many programmers to go around. They have to set priorities. Not everyone is going to be happy with the priorities they selected.
But, all we can really do about it is deal with it or go elsewhere, as I doubt they will adjust their priorities due to the numerous complaint threads, and if they did which should they listen to, the 'lack of bug fixes' ones or the 'lack of content' ones.
It's not so easy to juggle all these expectations as people like to think it is.
I don't care to understand the software development process! I want to play a game that is something close to a finished product. If they have a group of devs working on bug fixes and another working on an expansion they should shift the expansion team to assist the others. WHEN the basic feats, spells , skills, mechanics etc are actually fixed then release an expansion.
I know a bunch of blind defenders will jump on me but honestly this released game is less polished than many early betas. This team doesn't even have a presence on the boards to communicate or let us know they are even listening! It doesn't cost much for an hourly employee or two who could do that.
For those of you who will immediately want to throw the "free game" BS at me please save it!
Unfortunately, this spells out (rather bluntly in bold) to all the common customers who do not care about all the excuses the company gives.
All they want is to play a good game, and if the game is well maintained, the customers will pay. They will not give a second thought to complain or leave the game if the company cannot projects a healthy image of repairing bugs and promoting good gameplay.
Defenders can defend all they want. Common customers have the common sense to understand what is real and what is BS.
Nobody knows what the common customers of an MMO think with any certainty on any issue, as the vast majority of them don't post on MMO forums to express their views.
Common sense dictates that if the customer like the game/product, the customer will support the game/product. If the customer dislikes the game/product, the customer will quit the game/product.
Only customers with more than common senses (aka the vocal minority) will post at the forum, or the company's support website, or whatever. See all the complain threads in this forum?
Your first sentence is quite correct.
Your second sentence is not backed up by the quality of the majority of posts I see on this forum on both sides of the various issues discussed. There are indeed many complaint threads, but many of them lack substance, and many of them are just ranting gibberish. A lot of them don't make sense at all, never mind common sense. The same can be said for many of the posts countering the complaint posts from the opposite viewpoint.
Then there are the posts that are of high quality on both sides of the issue. However, these make up the minority of the vocal minority that post on the forums.
Ah, but you have to understand, customers do not need "quality" to bring their complains across. Quantity is all that matters in the World of Money, as proven in this forum itself. Individual customers believe their own complain is more important than other customers, thus creating one themselves. See all the pack complains in this forum?
or we already tried that at some point in the past, got told by various white knight elements to either love the game or bugger off, and eventually lost all patience for bothering to be tactful.
Who cares what stupid dumb dev team is working on what just fix the game already its been how long now and still major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> isnt fixed.
sycophantic fanboys wont make the game better.
So being tacful from the start didnt get anything fixed so now its just frustration.
I love that word "sycophantic" it does go perfect with the fanboys and their oh i love the game oh its perfect slop they post. What about give them a break they have different teams working on different parts of the game. Ohhh i love PVP its so much fun all the botz i dont see botz. Ohh they ban botz they are doing everything possible. Its not the dev's fault Ohhh please ooohhhh.
And if this new expansion fails like everything else new launch from them works just as dandy as anything new to this game. It will really be bad for the game. MOre people will leave the game. The pop will rise for short bit but the flaws will send them packing along with even more players.
Ah yes, and yet another "RARGH! FIX IT ALREADY! ERMAGERD!" is a totally helpful feedback. Gotcha.
The is some frustration going on as well to be sure. However, that is no reason to be overly antagonistic to others with a view that differs from your own. They are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.
For some, if the game isn't quite where they want it... for example, their favourite class isn't out yet... it may be prudent for them to play something else until what they want is released, so that they can return and better enjoy the game. The f2p model allows that kind of approach without causing undue penalty to most.
There are people on both sides of various issues that aren't tactful with those on the other side. Emulating this kind of behaviour consistently just serves to drag down the level of conversation further, making it less likely for any monitoring of the discussions by the developers, when they do so, to find any ideas and suggestions worth reading.
It's hard to remain constructive though, in a sea of negativity and petty jabs directed from one to another, just because they have a differing view on a subject, or because the person one is chatting with is just insulting and divisive by nature.
But, endless cycles of ever escalating negativity between the various camps of supporters and detractors aren't going to do anything useful for anyone, and certainly won't lead to many game improvements based on forum suggestions by players.
You are right, they should take all the artists and animators who are creating new races and classes, and make them FIX BUGS IN CODE, because professional artists totally know code like professional programers.
While they are at it, they could have customer support make everyone some ice cream.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
I LoL'ed,
Truly anyone who knows someone who works n software development knows its made up of various teams who have very specific tasks so screaming and stamping feet demanding they shift all their resources because someone on this forum has figured out that is the way to solve a problem is ludicrous.
Personally this thread has been entertaining. Something to giggle over while drinking my coffee.