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I hope this is not normal author behavior
resmunky
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2 Arc User
It's sad that I felt the need to post this here, but I am hoping that the following is not normal behavior from Foundry authors.
*bleep* posted in zone chat that he wanted players to try his new party foundry module. Since I play, review and tip (yes I ALWAYS give Astral Diamond tip for any module I enjoy playing) foundry modules from time to time, I messaged him to tell him I would try it in the next few days.
As promised I ask guild mates to try the module with me, which was this author's first, so I wasn't expecting anything super-good. The module was OK, and the party made a bunch of comments as we played. Some nice things some average things, a few things that could be improved.
I wrote a quick review, tipped him small amount of AD (to encourage him, I thought), and then took the time to mail him to let him know I had, as promised, run a party through it and it was OK, but I had some comments that I hoped would be constructive feedback, and listed about 6 things I thought he could work on. I told him two of the party gave it 2 stars, two gave it 3 stars, and then asked him to continue making foundry modules (hoping that would be encouraging in case he thought my feedback meant I didn't like his work).
Then I get an email back:
'I heard you never been in the foundry ... how about trying it .. like to see you do better with your first module.'
That dear reader is him telling me I am am ******* for bothering to play his module and then taking the time to send feedback. I've seen several posts from authors complaining about the lack of reviews/players doing foundry content or about foolish players complaining about a foundry module which is fine.
I really didn't expect an author to act like an ******* to me after I played, reviewed, tipped and then sent feedback on perfectly a OK module, especially when I specifically said "please continue making modules".
I hope this is not any type of normal author behavior. In any case I added ******* to my ignore list and I won't be playing any of his future modules. Oh and if ****** does read this: I have been 'in the foundry', it is difficult to use and hard to produce quality work with, which was why I have not released any authored products, and why I tried to send you some feedback so you'd know what was good and what could be improved in your own work.
I hope to play more quality work from the many other fine authors here soon.
*bleep* posted in zone chat that he wanted players to try his new party foundry module. Since I play, review and tip (yes I ALWAYS give Astral Diamond tip for any module I enjoy playing) foundry modules from time to time, I messaged him to tell him I would try it in the next few days.
As promised I ask guild mates to try the module with me, which was this author's first, so I wasn't expecting anything super-good. The module was OK, and the party made a bunch of comments as we played. Some nice things some average things, a few things that could be improved.
I wrote a quick review, tipped him small amount of AD (to encourage him, I thought), and then took the time to mail him to let him know I had, as promised, run a party through it and it was OK, but I had some comments that I hoped would be constructive feedback, and listed about 6 things I thought he could work on. I told him two of the party gave it 2 stars, two gave it 3 stars, and then asked him to continue making foundry modules (hoping that would be encouraging in case he thought my feedback meant I didn't like his work).
Then I get an email back:
'I heard you never been in the foundry ... how about trying it .. like to see you do better with your first module.'
That dear reader is him telling me I am am ******* for bothering to play his module and then taking the time to send feedback. I've seen several posts from authors complaining about the lack of reviews/players doing foundry content or about foolish players complaining about a foundry module which is fine.
I really didn't expect an author to act like an ******* to me after I played, reviewed, tipped and then sent feedback on perfectly a OK module, especially when I specifically said "please continue making modules".
I hope this is not any type of normal author behavior. In any case I added ******* to my ignore list and I won't be playing any of his future modules. Oh and if ****** does read this: I have been 'in the foundry', it is difficult to use and hard to produce quality work with, which was why I have not released any authored products, and why I tried to send you some feedback so you'd know what was good and what could be improved in your own work.
I hope to play more quality work from the many other fine authors here soon.
Post edited by resmunky on
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What grading scale are you using? If as a teacher you graded a work as a 50% that would mean it flunks. I don't see how anyone could take an F rating as meaning anything except you did not like his work.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
I can't blame him for being upset...getting ratings that low for your first 4 ratings will make it much more difficult to get the quest noticed at all. When the search and listings are already semi-botched, it's a really harsh beginning. Perhaps it would have been better to hold your rating, make your suggestions, and offer to try it when he's fixed some bugs and whatnot? (Whatever it was that was wrong with it)
In any case, I can understand that you were only trying to help as well.
Threads: Part 1: Rising of the Dragons (NW-DNGIC6AJC) | Part 2: Abyssal Pursuit (NW-DESQ9HQAZ)
I think that did two things for me, 1) it gave me an appreciation of just how much time/effort is required to script the simplest of story elements, 2) made me realise that I would almost certainly been an overly-harsh reviewer had I not first done that.
So I guess I can see this author's point - unless you've played with, and probably published something with, the Foundry the chances are you don't really understand its limitations. As things stand the Foundry probably has only 30% of the assets and functionality that the Devs have access to; and still Foundry author's are able to create quests far better than official content; but it takes a huge effort and hundreds of hours to do so.
And I can see the reviewer's point of view, he was trying to help, hoping to encourage improvements etc.
As a general rule if I feel I can't honestly give 3 Stars or more then I don't rate the quest at all, I drop the Author a PM explaining why I didn't give a rating, and offer (in as far as my understanding of the Foundry allows) a few hints, suggestions on improving things, and include a commitment to re-review the quest with a view to giving it a rating if the Author chooses to change things and lets me know.
It's a hard task being a reviewer, I sometimes struggle with it even after publishing two, reasonably successful, foundry projects.
But I am certain it is a task made even harder if you've never had a go with the foundry yourself. There are some things that as a player I just assumed would be included with even a basic foundry tool-set that just aren't there, and where the effects of these things have been replicated in other ways it is often a very time consuming job to achieve that.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
IMO you get 3 stars just for showing up and creating something that I can actually finish. Here is how I rate quests :
5* Excellent. Flawless execution of author's intent*. Quest is technically and thematically complete.
4* Good. Needs improvement in some areas, but with work could become an excellent quest.
3* Satisfactory. Did not ragequit. Every area needs drastic improvement, but no outright flaws.
2* Unsatisfactory. Critically flawed design, fails at multiple levels. Quest should be deleted and rewritten from scratch.
1* Exploit / Troll map. Should be deleted by Cryptic and Author should be banned from ever making quests again.
From the sound of it, I would have given samse's quest a 4, and listed the things the author could do to earn a 5. I would have also tipped 500 AD, because every quest I tip I give the maximum to. I want my imp! ><
*I rate based on author's intent, no matter what that may be. I personally hate lore breaking comedy quests and evil dead remakes, but I am not going to rate every one I play as 1* just because I do not like the theme. I am going to rate the quest on technical aspects like game mechanics, presentation, map design, typos, how well it represents the source material, etc.
Take Dzogen's quests for example. I hate the theme, but apparently it was his intent to make people groan, rolleyes, and facepalm, (and occasionally laugh out loud) and at that he succeeded marvelously. His quests are technically and thematically complete... if anyone gave them anything but 5* it would be an injustice.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
Unless you are a telepath you have no clue what the Author's intent was.
At best you have a subjective idea about what you think the Author's intent was, as visualised through the lens of you.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
...actually, why have rating system at all when you can just objectively tell us what the quest's exact rating should be?
to OP: It's not normal author behavior. I (and I believe most of the authors) would be glad for a 2 stars review with a constructive feedback telling me what's wrong (as opposed to 2 stars review telling 'very well done', and not saying anything as to what could be improved). But there are just as many jerks between authors as anywhere else.
NW-DMFGWPBN3 The Lost City - Review Thread
Same. I do no review maps if I cannot give it at least a 3 star rating. So many people put a ton of effort into foundry missions only to be skipped over because of the craptastic system cryptic has and the fact people only play the same 10 quests over and over. IF I cannot give it a 3 star I do not rate, I PM/Mail the author with feedback, mentioning I did not rate because I did not want to hurt his review, I give constructive feedback and suggestions and ask them to keep my name and mail me when they have worked on it some more. The system is skewed so much against authors that actually try, I see no reason to kick a guy just starting out. And I am not saying that you did or trying to demonize you or your friends, just explaining my reasoning. You have every right to rate how you feel like it should be rated.
I don't automatically assume this guys is a jerk based on his reaction, even though it seemed pretty harsh of a reaction. I can understand it, I would have kept my cool with the review, but I can understand where he is coming from and why he would be upset. It takes a lot of work and patience to make a quest that only a small amount of people are likely to play. To be hit with several 2 star reviews that early with your first quest could be very demoralizing and he likely just reacted. Likely not his proudest moment but it is what it is.
and generally speaking, no that is not how most of us react. At least not outwardly, sometimes we may think it lol
Dreamscapes Campaign
I. Darkly Dreaming / NW-DPSH505XY +Daily Foundry!!
II. Shattered Dreams / NW-DGARDHDR7
If the author is good their works will convey their authorial intent. Authorial intent is a cornerstone in many forms of literary theory. The whole point of making art is to realize an ideal, to tell a story, or to convey a message. If an artist fails to realize that ideal then the work of art is a failure, and would be rated low.
At best you have a subjective idea about anything you see in reality. But you can make interpretations based on observable evidence.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
Hit the nail on the head.
Normal behaviour for authors? There is no such thing as "normal" behaviour for authors. Authors are people. No more, no less, just people. And as with any other group of people, some will be jerks, sometimes, and some will be super cool, friendly, appreciative people, sometimes. Some can be both, depending when you catch them. The same goes for non-author reviewers, and likewise any other group of people.
Who is in the wrong here in your particular scenario?
In my opinion, nobody is. You and your group thought you were helping out, which is great. His (or her) reaction to your comments wasn't perhaps the most elegant, but also not entirely surprising... low ratings do sting, after all, and if you took the time to mail the author, you shouldn't be terribly surprised if they reply back. And while you thought you were being helpful, which is still a good thing, if the things you pointed out for them to fix were in fact foundry limitations that cannot be addressed by authors, then, yes, it's unsurprising that the reaction you received was somewhat vitriolic. Personally, nothing frustrates me more than receiving a low rating for something that is a limitation of the system rather than a fault on my part. It happens with disheartening frequency, and if you'd mailed me about giving me a low rating for a Cryptic issue, I too would have mailed you right back with a very frumpy piece of my mind, no matter how well-meaning you were.
But we don't know if that was the case, as you've not specified details of the exchange. Equally they may just have been using the age old "it was my first quest" cop out. I put a lot of effort into my first quest. While the second one is no doubt shaping up to be exponentially better, that's still no excuse for not putting a decent ammount of effort into a first quest, in my opinion. But, again, we just don't know if that's the case or not. Or maybe they were just one of those people who simply cannot take criticism of any kind... certainly not a trait unique to foundry authors... after all, you made a thread on a forum to rant about criticism of your review process.
I don't think anyone is directly at fault here. Giving you both the benefit of the doubt, I think it was just a case of humans being human. You were trying to be helpful, the author was hurt by a low rating; it happens. It's just human. The main culprit, in my opinion is the ridiculous 5 star rating system, which:
a) is a completely meaningless and inaccurate way of assessing what may be 5 minutes worth of work from one author alongside 2 months worth of work from another.
b) is both exasperated and made completely meaningless by the fact that we all have different definitions for what each of those 1 to 5 stars stands for. For some people a 3 means satisfactory, for others it means good, while in other cases, 5 means good and is given out like candy by some people while for others it's never given out because it means perfect. We all have different definitions, which makes the whole system pointless.
c) allows reviewers who do not know how the foundry works to unfairly downgrade legitimate content. (Again, we don't know if that's the case here, but it's definitely an issue overall.)
Preview/Freedback thread: http://tinyurl.com/NW-DTNZTFYDS - Now eligible for Daily Quest!
A Dwarven Dilemma Part 2 - Luskan Delights : Coming soon!
If you play and review foundries then you will know this reaction isn't normal, so what do you get out of kicking a guy who already felt kicked enough by your private comments to him? Comments by the way you skirt over, while quoting his private comments verbatim. Shame on you.
Instead of playing the normal, abnormal, right, wrong game, try having a bit of empathy and taking it on the chin. No harm was done to you after all which cannot be said by the low ratings and negative exposure you are plying on this author and his work.
ETA: I leave the post to go heat up some soup and visceral gets in first saying much the same thing as me. Only with a lot more words and a lot more tact...that's authors for you :cool:
First i have seen of this, and it's not normal. I usually look for people to review my foundrys (You've probably seen my posts a couple of times) and i always offer a review in exchange and honest feedback, if the person goes out of there way to give me advice then i will generally mail them saying Thank you, and that their advice will be taken in to consideration for future foundrys....but this, in the OP, is different, i wouldn't worry about it, most authors are really friendly.
Although that type of behavior is not common within the foundry community, its becoming more and more common lately, which saddens me.
Most of us foundry authors don't go out of our way to vote each other down when it's relatively clear that the other author was at least trying. We skip rating if we can't give a decent one, and just send the letter.
And if we do happen to give a fellow author a bad rating, we don't go online to whine about having gotten an unhappy reply about our "great kindness" in voting down a fellow author's work being received badly.... and proceed to attempt to get other people to join us in blacklisting said author.
His behavior was at least understandable, if inappropriate. Yours is both inappropriate and beyond understanding, in my personal opinion.
Before you pull something like this again, please remember that you are representing your fellow foundry authors. :rolleyes:
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
S/He claims to have authored, but not released (of course) some quests:
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
Quest ID: NW-DPCZNUVQ7
Frankly, I'm starting to find the author community appalling.
Feel free to run my missions and if you honestly think they rate 1 or 2 stars, go vote 1 or 2 stars.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
There's way too much focus on the rating in this thread.
Quest ID: NW-DPCZNUVQ7
As an Author I certainly would never 1 or 2 star a newly released (which is often effectively a Beta release) Foundry from a 1st time Author.
That's where I'd send a PM explaining why I didn't leave a rating.
For established Authors or content that the Author has stated is to be considered a "Final Release" then I might do so if it were really bad.
But if I did feel a Foundry genuinely warranted a 1 or 2 star rating I'd certainly not just rate it, I'd leave comment as well.
But the rating system is both too crude and to clumsy to be a genuine tool of worth in offering feedback.
All The Best
Looking For Reviews For Your Foundry Quest?
Drop By Scribe's Enclave & Meet Up With Volunteer Reviewers.
You could be right, but I read that as "I have had a tinker with the toolset" which I myself have done to get a feel of what you guys are working with. It doesn't make us even remotely an author of quests (published or otherwise).
PS: Your quote needs to be edited as it includes the name of the author, already removed by a mod.
As a player I cannot agree.
Whilst some of the entitlement that a minority of authors display is not the prettiest of traits - and at times makes me question whether my own stance of never awarding less than 3* adds to that sense of entitlement - don't think for a second we are being generous in reviewing your quests. You guys have nothing to be grateful for, we are the benefactors of your time and hard work - playing UGC is immense fun!
Again, it is only a minority of the author community coming across like this. And your missions are far more worthy than a 1 or 2 star.
I know everyone creates quests for different reasons, my reason is that I like creating content for others to play. (How odd and silly doesn't that sound, heh?
I always try to send a "thank you" mail if someone leaves a review, even if it's a low rating because it opens up the chances they might give me feedback what they thought could be improved.
That is "what does my quest need, in your opinion, to receive 5 stars from you?".
I also think this is what most authors do, I've personally never been hated upon for giving feedback, positive or constructive.
Also, just want to say that if the quest has less than 20 plays and less than 5 reviews, why not go a little easy on the author and not give stars this time just send a mail with feedback? (I know, the servers, but that'll be solved soon I hope...)
Have fun!
Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3
The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC (3 Quests)
Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63
Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
I believe there are two kinds of successful artists, those with natural talent and those who work hard to hone their craft. Unfortunately, those savants who do not have to try and just produce amazing work are few and far between. Others who want to be successful have to sharpen our skills and must have feedback to learn and grow. If as authors, our goal is to be successful then we should value those who take the time to provide honest and constructive comments so that we can get better. If our goal is to be told that we are beautiful unique butterflies no matter what, then we should just have our mothers play our quests.
Sure, it is hard to work around the foundry's quirks and produce something awesome. Sure, it is hard to put ourselves out there for everyone to critique. And... sure, it sucks to get low scores on a first page of reviews. But at the same time we should be thankful that someone has spent their time and effort to help us get better. There is nothing in it for them. They could just as easily drop an anonymous 1 star rating or a non-productive "this sux" note. Or even worse, just not play it at all.
If we are on the first 20 or so reviews and they are low scoring, instead of asking that people go out of their way to send in-game mail or message board posts, we can just unpublish the quest, copy it, make the changes and then republish the new version. The copied version with our updates will not have the negative reviews and perhaps even be better for the feedback.
I am on version 4 of my first quest now, and am sure I will still be making changes in the future. I much prefer when someone gives a low rating that they include actual comments of things they disliked. Unfortunately, the low ratings without comments or those with comments like "get better loot" are the ones that I get most of the time. Those, I can't do anything with.
I love this community and want it to be succesful. There are a lot of faults with the current foundry rating system and foundry mission listing system. I think we can sometimes allow those frustrations to boil over onto honest reviewers who are trying to provide constructive feedback. We don't seem to have a lot of folks in our corner at the moment, so I hope we don't push away those willing to play quests not listed on the best page because of our frustrations with the other issues.
Act 1: Nightmare on Market Street
Act 2: My Best Friend's Evil Wedding
Why would you expect your first experience to do better than average of every mission?
Personally, I am VERY happy my first mission sits at about 4 stars. After all, it's my first try! Granted, I have some advantage of having experimented with STO Foundry.
My second and third mission are also at 4 stars, and I view that as the price of trying unusual things that are going to disinterest many people (also some awkwardness in pacing, as the two missions are divided a little oddly).
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
It stems from a younger generation being brought up in an "everyone wins" "here is your trophy for participation" mentality. No one, now, is used to criticism because they have always been told how great they are, even if they lost. Now, someone is critiquing something that, in their eyes, should get 10 stars out of 5, and they don't know how to deal with aside from thinking you are just being mean.
Like the person who stated earlier in this thread that they give three stars unless it is broken or an exploit. Some quests, no matter how hard the Foundry is, deserve one star. Some quests deserve two. It goes completely against the rating system to bend it to your idea of what the star rating system means.
OP, no, you are not in the wrong. No, right now, that isn't the norm from Foudnry authors. But unless they can wake up and stop being little brats, unfortunately, it seems to be going that way.
RIP - Dirty Politics May 21st, 2013 - July 30th, 2013
Gotta disagree with ya Shor. There could be expectations on both sides of the coin for authors and players. You could expect common courtesy from a reviewer that if they felt the quest wasn't an exploit but wasn't very good either to send the reviews that they did but refrain from giving it a low rating. That in turn should be met with likewise courtesy by the author. That would of course be the 'nicest' way of doing things. Also there are troll reviews just as much as there are troll quests. Someone who one stars because they are a rival author. Someone who one stars and leaves a review of "f*ck off". And this particular environment leaves no way for the helpless author to see justice done. I will give Apoc's example of a gang of trolls hitting him with 1 stars all in a row. I personally liked the suggestions in that thread for the rating system. All in all, it could all be avoided if people were just nice.
But hell, who actually does the nice thing on the internet? Maybe Lovepeas, but she's special. And she's the one who hit it on the head. You do have tools to fix the things. Putting troll reviewers aside, the OP here actually spent time to send real comments on what the issues were. Now those are also opinion but an author needs to step back and look at it objectively and see if there are true issues there. Another REALLY big thing to look for are common statements in bad reviews. If enough people say it, something's probably amiss. Keep a journal, and when you have enough feedback, make all the changes, duplicate the quest and republish as a new version and you get a blank slate to start over with. This is a great tool to use.
Any rating you get is subjective. It was never meant to be objective. If there was some objective criteria for any particular number of stars, then it could be done algorithmically, not by people. Sorry to break it to you, but there will always be someone who won't like what you create. 1 and 2 stars ratings were implemented in order to be used. You can ignore them and shower everyone with a galaxy of stars, but don't expect others to do the same
NW-DMFGWPBN3 The Lost City - Review Thread
In my opinion, author reviews should be helpful reviews. If you think a quest is a two or a one, just don't review it, send the author your opinions in an email. This way you appear to be trying to be helpful. If he response to your email with hate filled rhetoric, don't review any more of his quests and don't offer anymore advice.
Personally here is the way I review.
When I review for a foundry author, I don't give anything less than a three. A three would be a quest that really has no potential, full of bugs, lack of imagination. I have only given one three.
A four would be an average quest. It pretty much works, may have some bugs in it, but you can certainly see some effort by the author to actually make something, could use some improvements.
A five does not have to be a perfect quest. If I can tell the author went to a great deal of trouble to create something unique, or I really enjoy the story, or if it is just different from the average quests, I consider giving it a five. If there are things that can be improved I send an email to the author to fix some things.
A two or a one I don't recommend giving ratings like that. I don't care if the quest is awful. If it is awful, let others rate him down. I might just stop the quest in the middle and send him an email saying that there is a lot more work to be done and that you didn't finish the quest.
I do not feel it is the right thing to do to give a two or a one because that is what you feel the quality of the quest is. You know what a rating like that will do to the quests overall rating. Don't do it. Be helpful and just send the email.
NW-DMIME87F5
Awaiting a serious response from the developers on the abuse of the review system by other authors.
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