As I said, the whole content can be solo heal.
I think you've never played with a real dps cleric, it's the best pick in terms of party damage.
I'm not disputing it can be solo healed, I can solo heal everything (With the possible exception of Dread Vault, I have yet to try it since I just went straight to CN).
I am, however, disputing your claim to out-DPS any properly spec'd... anything.
You can't out DPS a Trickster Rogue against Bosses, or a Control Wizard against bosses.
You can't out DPS a Control Wizard against trash, who is ALSO debuffing and keeping them centralized.
You can't out DPS a Guardian Fighter against trash, unless you're running with no Wizards.
You can't out DPS a Great Weapon Fighter against trash, unless you're running with no Wizards
Basically, if you have the "Best" spec, gear and skill for DPS Cleric, then any other class that also has the "Best" spec, gear and skill can out damage you.
I'm not disputing it can be solo healed, I can solo heal everything (With the possible exception of Dread Vault, I have yet to try it since I just went straight to CN).
I am, however, disputing your claim to out-DPS any properly spec'd... anything.
You can't out DPS a Trickster Rogue against Bosses, or a Control Wizard against bosses.
You can't out DPS a Control Wizard against trash, who is ALSO debuffing and keeping them centralized.
You can't out DPS a Guardian Fighter against trash, unless you're running with no Wizards.
You can't out DPS a Great Weapon Fighter against trash, unless you're running with no Wizards
Basically, if you have the "Best" spec, gear and skill for DPS Cleric, then any other class that also has the "Best" spec, gear and skill can out damage you.
it's pretty much like asking if a rogue is viable as primary controller in a dungeon... maybe it could? it's still not the role it was designed for so it would not compare to the proper class.
can cleric do dps? yeah... would a rogue do it better? yeah...
You're somewhat entertaining for now. Complete nonsense doesn't become more true by repetition. Pro tip, the onus on you is to prove outrageous claims, until then, you're just a silly silly wabbit.
I'm curious. Do you Queue, Zone Chat, group with friends, run with a guild, or a combination of some of those?
I usually run with my FL, but I run with some PUG too, works fine
You're somewhat entertaining for now. Complete nonsense doesn't become more true by repetition. Pro tip, the onus on you is to prove outrageous claims, until then, you're just a silly silly wabbit.
Why so much butthurt ? Just because I said DPS DC is the best pick in terms of party damage ? Really ?
Just look at High Prophet bonus set, nimbus of light feat, Divine Glow, Prophecy of Doom and HG, and just tell me another class with so much damage buff/debuff... Nope there is none.
I will detail :
GF : dont know, seems like they have no mitigation debuff, corect me if i'm wrong
GWF : 15% on crit, stackable 3 times (actually buggued, dont stack)(and 10% crit severity)
TR : WR, 20% at 5 stacks (and a 5% crit buff)
CW : Conduit of Ice feated, 15%, Ray of enfeeblement, 15-30%, vizier set, dont know how it works
DC : HG(30%), Divine glow(15%+20%), daunting light(10%), PoD(15%), High Prohet set(30%), with uptime from 50%(daunting light) to 100%(High Prophet set), you have something like an average 75% more group damage, with spike at 120%.
Really, even if you do 0 damage (which is far from reality), you're a good pick in any case.
the only class that should only be worried about dps meters is the rogue anyway because it's role is to kill the boss in a timely manner before the entire party runs out of potions tanking endless streams of adds. and even then it can bring some utility to the party before that by working on the nastier adds and by dropping smokebombs if needed.
you don't "need" high dps anywhere but the boss fights, a good CW can make every other encounter trivial by pushing adds away or simply keeping them controlled the whole time, nobody cares if the trash dies in 10 sec or 11. if you're a "pure" dps cleric all you are bringing to the party is that small speed increase, you aren't helping survive the dungeon and not really helping clear it either because it's just a minor speed bump. that's also kind of the reason why GWF are generally not as useful as other classes but at least they can tank.
you are basically making a choiche of stripping your character of it's most useful/powerful utility, it's kinda like a CW saying he's not going to run singularity because it's a silly power.
the only class that should only be worried about dps meters is the rogue anyway because it's role is to kill the boss in a timely manner before the entire party runs out of potions tanking endless streams of adds. and even then it can bring some utility to the party before that by working on the nastier adds and by dropping smokebombs if needed.
you don't "need" high dps anywhere but the boss fights, a good CW can make every other encounter trivial by pushing adds away or simply keeping them controlled the whole time, nobody cares if the trash dies in 10 sec or 11. if you're a "pure" dps cleric all you are bringing to the party is that small speed increase, you aren't helping survive the dungeon and not really helping clear it either because it's just a minor speed bump. that's also kind of the reason why GWF are generally not as useful as other classes but at least they can tank.
Pretty much this. By being a DPS Cleric instead of a Support Cleric, you're taking away something the party needs and replacing it with something it already has 3 people to do (Assuming 1 other Cleric to do the Heals you refuse to).
Basically, the damage meters in Dungeons are 100% pointless. My full Support cleric often out-damages the Rogue before the bosses, simply because there's not as much he can do before then. Likewise, the Control Wizards often top the boards with 10's of millions of damage, because they just Repel/Shield mobs off a ledge.
GF : dont know, seems like they have no mitigation debuff, corect me if i'm wrong
GWF : 15% on crit, stackable 3 times (actually buggued, dont stack)(and 10% crit severity)
TR : WR, 20% at 5 stacks (and a 5% crit buff)
CW : Conduit of Ice feated, 15%, Ray of enfeeblement, 15-30%, vizier set, dont know how it works
DC : HG(30%), Divine glow(15%+20%), daunting light(10%), PoD(15%), High Prohet set(30%), with uptime from 50%(daunting light) to 100%(High Prophet set), you have something like an average 75% more group damage, with spike at 120%.
Really, even if you do 0 damage (which is far from reality), you're a good pick in any case.
Hallowed Ground is only 15% (And is possibly bugged, nobody I've ran with has noticed a different in DPS with it up), and hardly counts since every Cleric should have it as one of their Dailies.
Divine Glow... I have no idea where you're getting the +20% from. Elaboration needed.
Prophecy of Doom... I can't seem to find any hard numbers to back up/disprove your claim of 15%, but it's late so I could've easily missed something. Feel free to point me somewhere with Math. All I know is the skills is currently bugged.
And even then, you shouldn't be doing more damage than the group. Why? These debuffs affect the mob, not you, so everyone should benefit from them. If you're topping the board when the boss is on 0/negative armor then your team just sucks.
Hallowed Ground is only 15% (And is possibly bugged, nobody I've ran with has noticed a different in DPS with it up), and hardly counts since every Cleric should have it as one of their Dailies.
Divine Glow... I have no idea where you're getting the +20% from. Elaboration needed.
Prophecy of Doom... I can't seem to find any hard numbers to back up/disprove your claim of 15%, but it's late so I could've easily missed something. Feel free to point me somewhere with Math. All I know is the skills is currently bugged.
And even then, you shouldn't be doing more damage than the group. Why? These debuffs affect the mob, not you, so everyone should benefit from them. If you're topping the board when the boss is on 0/negative armor then your team just sucks.
Oh lord, Deistik has completely destroyed the DC community, I feel like I try to explain quantum physics to an orangutan.
HG is 30% Dmg and 30% Defense.
Divine glow is 15% on target and 20% on ally from divine mode.
PoD is 10% normal and 15% in divine mode.
Sure you can't find number, there is no TC on this forum, just random ppl posting their build
If DPS DC are first, it's because you've to run searing light on trash, it's a 200k dmg every 8secs, only CW can deal with you, but i don't play with a lot of GWF and GF, so maybe they can too.
Oh lord, Deistik has completely destroyed the DC community, I feel like I try to explain quantum physics to an orangutan.
HG is 30% Dmg and 30% Defense.
Divine glow is 15% on target and 20% on ally from divine mode.
PoD is 10% normal and 15% in divine mode.
Sure you can't find number, there is no TC on this forum, just random ppl posting their build
If DPS DC are first, it's because you've to run searing light on trash, it's a 200k dmg every 8secs, only CW can deal with you, but i don't play with a lot of GWF and GF, so maybe they can too.
Without any proof to the contrary, I'll take the information listed on the Wiki as accurate.
Since when has HG been 30%? Did it get a stealthbuff, or have you got some clever magical feats going on? All the digging I'm doing comes up with 15%/15%...
I. How to check the damage buff from HG :
1. look at your damage tooltip
2. cast HG
3. look at your damage tooltip
4. Use this formula : Damage tooltip from 3 / damage tooltip from 1 = dmg buff
II. How to check the defense buff (advanced level) :
1. go in any zone with mobs
2. take damage
3. check your actual mitigation in your log (use this formula : number in the paranthesis - number before the parrenthesis / number in the parenthesis = mitigation )
4. cast HG
5. take damage
6. check your mitigation in your log
7. use this forumula : step 6 - step 3 = mitigation from HG
Come on guys. Don't give him easy points. The wiki is total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for almost all classes.
It is trivial to check stuff like this if you actually have your own DC. Just press 'C' and look at your offensive tooltips when you have HG up.
HG is at *least* 30% extra offense. If anything, Benefit of Foresight seems to give an additional 5% hidden bonus to offense.
But all this has nothing to do with anything since marginal DPS is the least important aspect to the vast majority of encounters in this game. Certainly unnecessarily sacrificing roles and utility in a group for it does not make your character viable...
If you want a true multi-role class, make a CW or GF.
Also, technically HG should be irrelevant to this discussion, since every DC should be bringing that, whether they're DPS specced or not.
I'm just kinda curious as to how he gets top damage when all his powers are party-wide damage buffs, and also I wonder....how his party heals. Potions like crazy?
LOL because the tool-tips are perfectly accurate in this game.
The damage values from tooltip are the same values that are used in the damage calculation, so yeah, they are more than accurate, they are the raw damage ...
TY for your intervention ... seriously, how i'm supposed to argue with him ? LEL
The damage values from tooltip are the same values that are used in the damage calculation, so yeah, they are more than accurate, they are the raw damage ...
TY for your intervention ... seriously, how i'm supposed to argue with him ? LEL
Then, if that is true, Foresight should literally do nothing. Unless they stealth-patched it recently, Foresight doesn't show up in the tooltips on the Character Sheet in your damage reduction, and according to you that means it isn't used in calculations.
Either way, it's irrelevant. Even if every single bit of your math is true... you're not actually a DPS Cleric. Your straight damage is still basically the lowest, possibly only beaten by Tank spec GFs and GWFs (Don't know their damage output), and every single one of your buffs affects the entire party (Or in the case of Divinity-Divine Glow, anyone standing basically directly on the mobs head, which shouldn't be you anyway) so your final damage output will be.... Second last! The only one who should be dealing less damage than you is the Healing Cleric.
Plus your build requires running with a T1 set, which means you're losing a fair few stats on each piece of gear (Which can be replaced with higher level enchants) and some AR (Which can't), so your damage reduction is lower than is optimal...
And Prophecy of Doom has a low up-time, and a huge Cooldown...
Heck, I could dial back to the T1 set, pop Divine Glow on and be doing 75% of your builds work while healing everyone.
So, to sum up... Does it work? Sure, there's nothing in this game that actually requires all 5 party slots to be specific classes/roles
Would I use it? No.
Would I run a group with someone using it? Only if it was a friend.
Then, if that is true, Foresight should literally do nothing. Unless they stealth-patched it recently, Foresight doesn't show up in the tooltips on the Character Sheet in your damage reduction, and according to you that means it isn't used in calculations.
Just ... Meh ?
Either way, it's irrelevant. Even if every single bit of your math is true... you're not actually a DPS Cleric. Your straight damage is still basically the lowest, possibly only beaten by Tank spec GFs and GWFs (Don't know their damage output), and every single one of your buffs affects the entire party (Or in the case of Divinity-Divine Glow, anyone standing basically directly on the mobs head, which shouldn't be you anyway) so your final damage output will be.... Second last! The only one who should be dealing less damage than you is the Healing Cleric.
Plus your build requires running with a T1 set, which means you're losing a fair few stats on each piece of gear (Which can be replaced with higher level enchants) and some AR (Which can't), so your damage reduction is lower than is optimal...
And Prophecy of Doom has a low up-time, and a huge Cooldown...
Heck, I could dial back to the T1 set, pop Divine Glow on and be doing 75% of your builds work while healing everyone.
So, to sum up... Does it work? Sure, there's nothing in this game that actually requires all 5 party slots to be specific classes/roles
Would I use it? No.
Would I run a group with someone using it? Only if it was a friend.
Obviously you have never played it, and you've never seen a cleric played it, you just don't know what you're talking about, there is no point to argue.
Obviously you have never played it, and you've never seen a cleric played it, you just don't know what you're talking about, there is no point to argue.
Meh? That's your entire argument to that point? Very eloquent.
And you're right, I haven't played it. Because it seems like it wouldn't be fun, wouldn't be efficient and would cause a lot of grief.
I have, however, played with a few DPS DCs, none of which had the courtesy to tell us until after they'd caused a wipe. I'd played with awful Clerics before, so I was fully expecting to solo-heal even with a second Cleric on the team. Heck, one of them wasn't even bad. He just wasn't any good. I dearly would've preferred another TR for faster boss kills.
Basically what I'm saying is that you might have fun with it, you might even do well with it, but you keep claiming it's the best choice and you're just not doing enough to convince me of that.
From an abstract perspective, it should be pretty clear that "DPS Cleric = top damage dealer" is not something that any game would plan around, because it pretty much makes every other class redundant. Get a team of 5 DCs, FACEROLL ALL THE THINGS.
Which makes me suspect that the general consensus (that DPSing as a cleric is an unwise use of a cleric) is much closer to the truth. It's always possible that you've discovered some incredible combination of skills that makes the cleric the best all-round damage dealin' self healin' ubermachine, but it just seems...less likely than the alternative.
And I'm still not sure why you're doing all the damage when your buffs are partywide, nor am I sure where the heals are coming from in your three-man assault squad.
Meh? That's your entire argument to that point? Very eloquent.
Yeah, i talk about damage tooltip, you respond with foresight that doesn't show up in character sheet, sometimes, I feel like I try to explain quantum physics to an orangutan.
and according to you that means it isn't used in calculations.
And you're right, I haven't played it. Because it seems like it wouldn't be fun, wouldn't be efficient and would cause a lot of grief.
I have, however, played with a few DPS DCs, none of which had the courtesy to tell us until after they'd caused a wipe. I'd played with awful Clerics before, so I was fully expecting to solo-heal even with a second Cleric on the team. Heck, one of them wasn't even bad. He just wasn't any good. I dearly would've preferred another TR for faster boss kills.
Basically what I'm saying is that you might have fun with it, you might even do well with it, but you keep claiming it's the best choice and you're just not doing enough to convince me of that.
First, i think you played with suckers DCs.
Second, I never said it's the best choice, my main is a full healer DC he will stay my main, I play my DPS alt when needed.
But you say that dps DC is useless and you haven't even played it ... people have to know the truth
I don't think anyone's saying it's useless. Just...considerably less useful than a healing cleric (which even you seem to admit).
We're also doubting the level of OMG BEST that you seem to be claiming, since (in my case at least) I can't figure out where all your damage is coming from, nor why your party isn't outdamaging you tremendously (since you're buffing everyone's damage, and the others are primary damage-dealers). Or, indeed, where your party heals are coming from.
Comments
I'm not disputing it can be solo healed, I can solo heal everything (With the possible exception of Dread Vault, I have yet to try it since I just went straight to CN).
I am, however, disputing your claim to out-DPS any properly spec'd... anything.
You can't out DPS a Trickster Rogue against Bosses, or a Control Wizard against bosses.
You can't out DPS a Control Wizard against trash, who is ALSO debuffing and keeping them centralized.
You can't out DPS a Guardian Fighter against trash, unless you're running with no Wizards.
You can't out DPS a Great Weapon Fighter against trash, unless you're running with no Wizards
Basically, if you have the "Best" spec, gear and skill for DPS Cleric, then any other class that also has the "Best" spec, gear and skill can out damage you.
It's a fact.
I do not agree at all
I'm curious. Do you Queue, Zone Chat, group with friends, run with a guild, or a combination of some of those?
can cleric do dps? yeah... would a rogue do it better? yeah...
Usually when my dps cleric isn't top damage she is beaten by a GWF, but not by much mind you.
And yes this is a viable role but there are always haters....
You're somewhat entertaining for now. Complete nonsense doesn't become more true by repetition. Pro tip, the onus on you is to prove outrageous claims, until then, you're just a silly silly wabbit.
I usually run with my FL, but I run with some PUG too, works fine
Why so much butthurt ? Just because I said DPS DC is the best pick in terms of party damage ? Really ?
Just look at High Prophet bonus set, nimbus of light feat, Divine Glow, Prophecy of Doom and HG, and just tell me another class with so much damage buff/debuff... Nope there is none.
I will detail :
GF : dont know, seems like they have no mitigation debuff, corect me if i'm wrong
GWF : 15% on crit, stackable 3 times (actually buggued, dont stack)(and 10% crit severity)
TR : WR, 20% at 5 stacks (and a 5% crit buff)
CW : Conduit of Ice feated, 15%, Ray of enfeeblement, 15-30%, vizier set, dont know how it works
DC : HG(30%), Divine glow(15%+20%), daunting light(10%), PoD(15%), High Prohet set(30%), with uptime from 50%(daunting light) to 100%(High Prophet set), you have something like an average 75% more group damage, with spike at 120%.
Really, even if you do 0 damage (which is far from reality), you're a good pick in any case.
you don't "need" high dps anywhere but the boss fights, a good CW can make every other encounter trivial by pushing adds away or simply keeping them controlled the whole time, nobody cares if the trash dies in 10 sec or 11. if you're a "pure" dps cleric all you are bringing to the party is that small speed increase, you aren't helping survive the dungeon and not really helping clear it either because it's just a minor speed bump. that's also kind of the reason why GWF are generally not as useful as other classes but at least they can tank.
you are basically making a choiche of stripping your character of it's most useful/powerful utility, it's kinda like a CW saying he's not going to run singularity because it's a silly power.
Pretty much this. By being a DPS Cleric instead of a Support Cleric, you're taking away something the party needs and replacing it with something it already has 3 people to do (Assuming 1 other Cleric to do the Heals you refuse to).
Basically, the damage meters in Dungeons are 100% pointless. My full Support cleric often out-damages the Rogue before the bosses, simply because there's not as much he can do before then. Likewise, the Control Wizards often top the boards with 10's of millions of damage, because they just Repel/Shield mobs off a ledge.
It's not me that's ranting and raving, my little cabbage flower. Methinks he doth protest too much
lel no **** pls
Hallowed Ground is only 15% (And is possibly bugged, nobody I've ran with has noticed a different in DPS with it up), and hardly counts since every Cleric should have it as one of their Dailies.
Divine Glow... I have no idea where you're getting the +20% from. Elaboration needed.
Prophecy of Doom... I can't seem to find any hard numbers to back up/disprove your claim of 15%, but it's late so I could've easily missed something. Feel free to point me somewhere with Math. All I know is the skills is currently bugged.
And even then, you shouldn't be doing more damage than the group. Why? These debuffs affect the mob, not you, so everyone should benefit from them. If you're topping the board when the boss is on 0/negative armor then your team just sucks.
Oh lord, Deistik has completely destroyed the DC community, I feel like I try to explain quantum physics to an orangutan.
HG is 30% Dmg and 30% Defense.
Divine glow is 15% on target and 20% on ally from divine mode.
PoD is 10% normal and 15% in divine mode.
Sure you can't find number, there is no TC on this forum, just random ppl posting their build
If DPS DC are first, it's because you've to run searing light on trash, it's a 200k dmg every 8secs, only CW can deal with you, but i don't play with a lot of GWF and GF, so maybe they can too.
Without any proof to the contrary, I'll take the information listed on the Wiki as accurate.
Point 2 is the relevant one
EDIT: Ninja'd!
1. look at your damage tooltip
2. cast HG
3. look at your damage tooltip
4. Use this formula : Damage tooltip from 3 / damage tooltip from 1 = dmg buff
II. How to check the defense buff (advanced level) :
1. go in any zone with mobs
2. take damage
3. check your actual mitigation in your log (use this formula : number in the paranthesis - number before the parrenthesis / number in the parenthesis = mitigation )
4. cast HG
5. take damage
6. check your mitigation in your log
7. use this forumula : step 6 - step 3 = mitigation from HG
It is trivial to check stuff like this if you actually have your own DC. Just press 'C' and look at your offensive tooltips when you have HG up.
HG is at *least* 30% extra offense. If anything, Benefit of Foresight seems to give an additional 5% hidden bonus to offense.
But all this has nothing to do with anything since marginal DPS is the least important aspect to the vast majority of encounters in this game. Certainly unnecessarily sacrificing roles and utility in a group for it does not make your character viable...
If you want a true multi-role class, make a CW or GF.
Check the logs then... It's not rocket science.
I'm just kinda curious as to how he gets top damage when all his powers are party-wide damage buffs, and also I wonder....how his party heals. Potions like crazy?
The damage values from tooltip are the same values that are used in the damage calculation, so yeah, they are more than accurate, they are the raw damage ...
TY for your intervention ... seriously, how i'm supposed to argue with him ? LEL
Then, if that is true, Foresight should literally do nothing. Unless they stealth-patched it recently, Foresight doesn't show up in the tooltips on the Character Sheet in your damage reduction, and according to you that means it isn't used in calculations.
Either way, it's irrelevant. Even if every single bit of your math is true... you're not actually a DPS Cleric. Your straight damage is still basically the lowest, possibly only beaten by Tank spec GFs and GWFs (Don't know their damage output), and every single one of your buffs affects the entire party (Or in the case of Divinity-Divine Glow, anyone standing basically directly on the mobs head, which shouldn't be you anyway) so your final damage output will be.... Second last! The only one who should be dealing less damage than you is the Healing Cleric.
Plus your build requires running with a T1 set, which means you're losing a fair few stats on each piece of gear (Which can be replaced with higher level enchants) and some AR (Which can't), so your damage reduction is lower than is optimal...
And Prophecy of Doom has a low up-time, and a huge Cooldown...
Heck, I could dial back to the T1 set, pop Divine Glow on and be doing 75% of your builds work while healing everyone.
So, to sum up... Does it work? Sure, there's nothing in this game that actually requires all 5 party slots to be specific classes/roles
Would I use it? No.
Would I run a group with someone using it? Only if it was a friend.
Just ... Meh ?
Obviously you have never played it, and you've never seen a cleric played it, you just don't know what you're talking about, there is no point to argue.
Meh? That's your entire argument to that point? Very eloquent.
And you're right, I haven't played it. Because it seems like it wouldn't be fun, wouldn't be efficient and would cause a lot of grief.
I have, however, played with a few DPS DCs, none of which had the courtesy to tell us until after they'd caused a wipe. I'd played with awful Clerics before, so I was fully expecting to solo-heal even with a second Cleric on the team. Heck, one of them wasn't even bad. He just wasn't any good. I dearly would've preferred another TR for faster boss kills.
Basically what I'm saying is that you might have fun with it, you might even do well with it, but you keep claiming it's the best choice and you're just not doing enough to convince me of that.
Which makes me suspect that the general consensus (that DPSing as a cleric is an unwise use of a cleric) is much closer to the truth. It's always possible that you've discovered some incredible combination of skills that makes the cleric the best all-round damage dealin' self healin' ubermachine, but it just seems...less likely than the alternative.
And I'm still not sure why you're doing all the damage when your buffs are partywide, nor am I sure where the heals are coming from in your three-man assault squad.
Yeah, i talk about damage tooltip, you respond with foresight that doesn't show up in character sheet, sometimes, I feel like I try to explain quantum physics to an orangutan.
Total Meh
First, i think you played with suckers DCs.
Second, I never said it's the best choice, my main is a full healer DC he will stay my main, I play my DPS alt when needed.
But you say that dps DC is useless and you haven't even played it ... people have to know the truth
We're also doubting the level of OMG BEST that you seem to be claiming, since (in my case at least) I can't figure out where all your damage is coming from, nor why your party isn't outdamaging you tremendously (since you're buffing everyone's damage, and the others are primary damage-dealers). Or, indeed, where your party heals are coming from.