Zen worth more than AD
AD worth more than Gold
Gold worth more than Silver
Silver worth more than Copper
but in actuality, there are still players in zone chat offering Zen to buy items, for less than 1/10 the # of Zen needed, in gold ( that is offering things that cost over 100 Zen for only 10 Gold )
if
10 Zen is worth LESS than 1 Gold, ( 10000 copper )
and
300 AD is worth less than 1 Zen ( 3,000 AD to make less than 10 Zen)
then
1 AD is worth less than 4 Copper, and 1 Zen is worth less than 10 Silver.
edit to add: if there was less gold sinks, and a better "value for Zen/AD", in the respective stores, maybe the economy wouldn't be fraked.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you start low then those willing to spend more on a given item will have paid less than they would have and so the paying customer base as a whole would have paid less. Ideally you start at the highest price where the product will sell and then lower prices incrementally to be able to sell to as many people, for as much money, as possible. You do have to be careful to not lower prices too rapidly or you end up training your customers to not buy your product until it goes on sale.
Now Ashensnow, this is just textbook armchair business.However the attitude here isn't likely to get you far with your customer base. So you want to TRAIN your customers? To spend more money instead of less? That's interesting... makes me feel like a lab rat. How much money do lab rats spend on games? I refer you to my post #56 on page 6 for my thinking on this.
Because some people consider the higher price to be acceptable and pay it. Then, after lowering the price, you get money form those who considered the higher price unacceptable. The goal there is to get as much money as possible from as large apercentage of the player base as possible.
If you start low then those willing to spend more on a given item will have paid less than they would have and so the paying customer base as a whole would have paid less. Ideally you start at the highest price where the product will sell and then lower prices incrementally to be able to sell to as many people, for as much money, as possible. You do have to be careful to not lower prices too rapidly or you end up training your customers to not buy your product until it goes on sale.
Then there is also the possibility of a scenario such as:
Lowering prices rarely has an exactly equal correlation to increased sales. So halving the price rarely exactly doubles sales as would be needed to keep revenue exactly the same.
Ideally, assuming that PWE's market research and analysis team is not completely incompetent, the prices are being set according to projected maximum return assumptions. If the actual numbers do not match those projections then prices will be adjusted accordingly.
The company's goal will be to find that sweet spot where the combination of an item's price and sales units maximizes revenue. Reducing the price does little for the company unless it produces at least an equal (and more desirably greater) increase in sales units as the reduction in price.
Ultimately, particularly as regards to luxury goods, the only price that is too high is one that people will not pay. If people are not paying these prices then they are very likely to come down. If they do not come down it is probably a pretty solid indication that people are paying said prices and that, by definition, they are not too high.
YOur wrong about lowering prices that dont equal better sales. I work in sales. YOu dont understand how sales and marketing work.
Say you have a store and sales are slumping abit. Having a sale does bring in more cash. Say your $10 dollar item reduced to 5 bucks. People dont usually go into the store for that one item thats on sale they will buy other items from the store also and end up spending more then just 10dollars. And also usually if an item is on for 50% off your normal price its going to sell more then double the units you normally sell. Plus sales and lower prices makes people happy and they tell more friends about the good times and great prices they got.
Which means more users and people willing to pay PW money
Now Ashensnow, this is just textbook armchair business. However the attitude here isn't likely to get you far with your customer base. So you want to TRAIN your customers? To spend more money instead of less? That's interesting... makes me feel like a lab rat. How much money do lab rats spend on games? I refer you to my post #56 on page 6 for my thinking on this.
The attitude here is that it is good to provide as many customers as possible with the product they desire at a price they find reasonable. You consider that inappropriate ? Not armchair at all, for what its worth. Twenty-five very successful years experience in sales and marketing based around the idea that providing value can have a higher return, over the long run, than relying on flash and gimmicks. Value is subjective. What one customer finds to be a great value will be seen by another as overpriced, and by another as less that what he considered the product to be worth to him.
As to the, "TRAIN," comment...I find it odd that you would react as you did as I expressed that as a negative, not a positive.
On the other hand I expect that if you asked around you would find relatively few for profit businesses that prefer that their customers spend less rather than more. If you feel like a lab rat because Coke would rather you buy a twelve pack per week than per month you might want to reconsider your feelings. The reality of the matter is that every company wants you to buy their product, and wants you to buy more rather than less. They spend a lot of money (dear gods a lot) and effort on figuring out how to get you to do so. That is not because you are a lab rat. It is because you have something they want, just as, ideally, they have something you want. Now its just a matter of finding that middle ground where you both walk away happy with that you got.
Two cents, from a player.
I have 2 level 60's decently geared (10k TR and 10.5k DC). I have a 50ish CW and 40ish GF.
I am afforded the ability to play often as I'm retired and a student.
That being said, I haven't spent one thin penny.
I have the 2500 Zen, 110% mount, I have 4 extra character slots and 2 Ioun Stones and one Acolyte. I do not buy any bags as you get 2 through questing and it's enough, for me.
The key is you must do dungeons at 60, specifically dungeon delves. Then you can get items, post to AH and profit. Then all it takes is an easy AD - Zen conversion. Viola! You can buy things.
I understand some may not have the time I do. I suggest using some cash supplemented by AD exchange.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The attitude here is that it is good to provide as many customers as possible with the product they desire at a price they find reasonable. You consider that inappropriate ? Not armchair at all, for what its worth. Twenty-five very successful years experience in sales and marketing based around the idea that providing value can have a higher return, over the long run, than relying on flash and gimmicks. Value is subjective. What one customer finds to be a great value will be seen by another as overpriced, and by another as less that what he considered the product to be worth to him.
As to the, "TRAIN," comment...I find it odd that you would react as you did as I expressed that as a negative, not a positive.
On the other hand I expect that if you asked around you would find relatively few for profit businesses that prefer that their customers spend less rather than more. If you feel like a lab rat because Coke would rather you buy a twelve pack per week than per month you might want to reconsider your feelings. The reality of the matter is that every company wants you to buy their product, and wants you to buy more rather than less. They spend a lot of money (dear gods a lot) and effort on figuring out how to get you to do so. That is not because you are a lab rat. It is because you have something they want, just as, ideally, they have something you want. Now its just a matter of finding that middle ground where you both walk away happy with that you got.
I did not say that.
You might want to read my post again.
You are mistaken.
Really? who does more business? Wal-Mart or Montgomery Ward? It's just as much about where you are going as what you are doing. I have seen 2 PWE/Cryptic games stagger along, straining mightily to squeeze every penny they can out of a small dedicated niche market group. I don't think that's what they are aiming for here. I think they want a larger market.. and BTW.. even the mighty Wal-Mart knows how to knock up a price just because they know some customers would rather one stop than go some where else....
But that comes later, first you get this snowball rolling, when its big enough, then you can Open a nice showroom for Tiffany and Cadillac players. start small.....
Really? who does more business? Wal-Mart or Montgomery Ward? It's just as much about where you are going as what you are doing. I have seen 2 PWE/Cryptic games stagger along, straining mightily to squeeze every penny they can out of a small dedicated niche market group. I don't think that's what they are aiming for here. I think they want a larger market.. and BTW.. even the mighty Wal-Mart knows how to knock up a price just because they know some customers would rather one stop than go some where else....
.....Think big .......
WalMart and this game are not analogous. To suggest so shows a rudimentary understanding of economics.
For instance, I earn AD in game. I convert said AD into Zen, or cash. I spend said Zen on the items you bemoan their cost outrageous cost.
If you took the time to read my post you'd know that you don't have to spend actual money in the Zen store. Alas, you seem to only want to wail and moan about a virtual item and its pricing point. Whilst, ignoring the other function within this game of earning AD and converting to Zen.
Good luck with that.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
WalMart and this game are not analogous. To suggest so shows a rudimentary understanding of economics.
For instance, I earn AD in game. I convert said AD into Zen, or cash. I spend said Zen on the items you bemoan their cost outrageous cost.
If you took the time to read my post you'd know that you don't have to spend actual money in the Zen store. Alas, you seem to only want to wail and moan about a virtual item and its pricing point. Whilst, ignoring the other function within this game of earning AD and converting to Zen.
Good luck with that.
And Pray tell where does the stuff you buy on the auction house actually come from? From customers who spend REAL ZEN. Now, would you rather pay .... lets use the hero asset as an example here... 100k ADs for one, or the current 250-300k ADs its going for on the market now? You know that if the supplier's cost dropped, he could drop his price. Do you watch the zen market here? I'll bet you read stock reports in RL. There is a real economy here. It can BOOM or BUST. Gamers, not businessman, can turn the tide in a game economy . There are games with PROSPERITY. Then there are a lot of dead games and some Ghettos. It's a fine line. How do you stay on the good side of it?
Really? who does more business? Wal-Mart or Montgomery Ward? It's just as much about where you are going as what you are doing. I have seen 2 PWE/Cryptic games stagger along, straining mightily to squeeze every penny they can out of a small dedicated niche market group. I don't think that's what they are aiming for here. I think they want a larger market.. and BTW.. even the mighty Wal-Mart knows how to knock up a price just because they know some customers would rather one stop than go some where else....
But that comes later, first you get this snowball rolling, when its big enough, then you can Open a nice showroom for Tiffany and Cadillac players. start small.....
.....Think big .......
Thank you for choosing an example that demonstrates my point. Wal-Mart has the ability to sell below their current prices without killing their margin. They choose not to do so because they are attempting to provide value while charging as much as they can (without giving ceding market share to their competitors) for their products. They are following essentially the same principles I mention in the post you quoted.
And Pray tell where does the stuff you buy on the auction house actually come from? From customers who spend REAL ZEN. Now, would you rather pay .... lets use the hero asset as an example here... 100k ADs for one, or the current 250-300k ADs its going for on the market now? You know that if the supplier's cost dropped, he could drop his price. Do you watch the zen market here? I'll bet you read stock reports in RL. There is a real economy here. It can BOOM or BUST. Gamers, not businessman, can turn the tide in a game economy . There are games with PROSPERITY. Then there are a lot of dead games and some Ghettos. It's a fine line. How do you stay on the good side of it?
Er...the stuff on the AH comes from players doing Dungeons and selling their loot.
The AD can come both from Zen (founders packs, etc...) and dailies.
This is how it works.
Loot items - sell for AD - convert to Zen.
It's simple, really, I've done it and I'm no great economics wizard.
You can still cry out "It's only pay to win!". That doesn't make it true.
Thank you for choosing an example that demonstrates my point. Wal-Mart has the ability to sell below their current prices without killing their margin. They choose not to do so because they are attempting to provide value while charging as much as they can (without giving ceding market share to their competitors) for their products. They are following essentially the same principles I mention in the post you quoted.
Honestly, how do you make the virtual items store in NW and its practices equate to Wal-Mart and theirs? They are not analogous.
Wal-Mart has a near monopoly on the retail industry...Crytpic does not have this on MMOs.
Wal-Mart uses exploitative labor and a largely government subsidized workforce...Crytpic does not.
Wal-Mart has bullied and/or bought out much of its smaller competition...Crytpic has not.
Wal-Mart has invested heavily in real estate to ensure its stores are prominent in most communities...Cryptic has not.
There are a myriad of other examples but I suspect you won't really care.
It's like making the argument that the Governments debts are the same as my household debts. Simplistic reasoning meant to enrage or sustain an audiences ideology but also incorrect.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Er...the stuff on the AH comes from players doing Dungeons and selling their loot.
The AD can come both from Zen (founders packs, etc...) and dailies.
This is how it works.
Loot items - sell for AD - convert to Zen.
It's simple, really, I've done it and I'm no great economics wizard.
You can still cry out "It's only pay to win!". That doesn't make it true.
Some stuff you have to pay for. The hero asset I mentioned only comes from lock boxes and professional packs.. and even then you are spending money on a gamble ,either way. Hey I buy and sell lots of loot myself. Since my OP was so big I left out some of the perfectly reasonable prices. Life scrolls healing stones are fine. Too cheap and people begin to play poorly because of it. I actually think the of the mounts more as status symbols than anything else. Decreasing their value would be a shame.. A caddy wouldn't be a caddy if Bob the bus driver could afford one. But the price of storage space is simply gouging. It's one of the first price hurdles every new player runs up on. I've heard more than one 'FTP Yeah Right' simply because this issue. IMO That is poor PR. Therefore bad marketing.
My Champions Online friends have suffered a price increase over their bank slots lately, and are loudly complaining about it, but personal character bank slots there can be bought with gold. You can have somewhere around 200 of them . For your Zen , you get SHARED slots, very handy for swapping stuff between character. You get 20 for 450 zen ( I remember it being 300 last time I bought but I won't swear to that.) It's still cheaper than what you get here and ALL your alts can use them.
Honestly, how do you make the virtual items store in NW and its practices equate to Wal-Mart and theirs? They are not analogous.
Wal-Mart has a near monopoly on the retail industry...Crytpic does not have this on MMOs.
Wal-Mart uses exploitative labor and a largely government subsidized workforce...Crytpic does not.
Wal-Mart has bullied and/or bought out much of its smaller competition...Crytpic has not.
Wal-Mart has invested heavily in real estate to ensure its stores are prominent in most communities...Cryptic has not.
There are a myriad of other examples but I suspect you won't really care.
It's like making the argument that the Governments debts are the same as my household debts. Simplistic reasoning meant to enrage or sustain an audiences ideology but also incorrect.
1) I did not equate Wal-Mart's practices to virtual store items in NW.
2) Wal Mart does not have anything even close to a monopoly on the retail industry.
I did respond to someone who was using Wal Mart vs a now defunct former competitor (Montgomery Wards) as an example.
My point, all along, was in response to a question from someone expressing that they did not understand why there would be any reason to start with prices higher rather than lower. My point then, as it is now, was that starting with prices higher and then lowering them to suit demand allowed for the possibility that everyone could get an item at a price they considered a good value.
Example 1:
The customer who considered $10 a good value would buy it then.
The customer who considers $6.50 a good value might buy the item when it reached that price.
And the customer who considers $3 a good value might buy it then.
Everyone gets the item at what they consider to be a good value.
Example 2:
If you go in reverse, starting an item at $3 then
The customer who considers $3 a good deal buys.
The customer who considers $6.50 to be a great deal for the item pays only $3.
The customer who considers $10 to be a great deal for the item pays only $10.
Everyone gets the item at what they consider a good value (as in example 1) but the company gets less revenue.
Of course all of this is moot if the product sells well at the higher price. Cryptic/PWE has the data. We do not. I may think that these companies make questionable decisions, some seem outright foolish to me, but I believe it is very likely that they employ someone with sufficient business acumen to realize that if something isn't selling at a desired rate, at a certain price point, it is time to lower that price. Ultimately the power lies with the consumer. If these virtual goods sell well at a price that vocal forumites decry as a, "scam, robbery, etc," then there is no reason for the company to alter the prices.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Thank you for choosing an example that demonstrates my point. Wal-Mart has the ability to sell below their current prices without killing their margin. They choose not to do so because they are attempting to provide value while charging as much as they can (without giving ceding market share to their competitors) for their products. They are following essentially the same principles I mention in the post you quoted.
Now follow my mind here.... If this game had that kind of market share, Then they could do it too....
1) I did not equate Wal-Mart's practices to virtual store items in NW.
2) Wal Mart does not have anything even close to a monopoly on the retail industry.
I did respond to someone who was using Wal Mart vs a now defunct former competitor (Montgomery Wards) as an example.
My point, all along, was in response to a question from someone expressing that they did not understand why there would be any reason to start with prices higher rather than lower. My point then, as it is now, was that starting with prices higher and then lowering them to suit demand allowed for the possibility that everyone could get an item at a price they considered a good value.
Example 1:
The customer who considered $10 a good value would buy it then.
The customer who considers $6.50 a good value might buy the item when it reached that price.
And the customer who considers $3 a good value might buy it then.
Everyone gets the item at what they consider to be a good value.
Example 2:
If you go in reverse, starting an item at $3 then
The customer who considers $3 a good deal buys.
The customer who considers $6.50 to be a great deal for the item pays only $3.
The customer who considers $10 to be a great deal for the item pays only $10.
Everyone gets the item at what they consider a good value (as in example 1) but the company gets less revenue.
Of course all of this is moot if the product sells well at the higher price. Cryptic/PWE has the data. We do not. I may think that these companies make questionable decisions, some seem outright foolish to me, but I believe it is very likely that they employ someone with sufficient business acumen to realize that if something isn't selling at a desired rate, at a certain price point, it is time to lower that price. Ultimately the power lies with the consumer. If these virtual goods sell well at a price that vocal forumites decry as a, "scam, robbery, etc," then there is no reason for the company to alter the prices.
I must have misunderstood your post. Apologies.
However, because I'm being pedantic , the analogies about pricing leaves out a very important ingredient. The fact that you can earn in-game currency and convert this into the real money currency.
This fact, above others, has an impact on the 'high' pricing of items within the Zen store. In my humble opinion.
Now follow my mind here.... If this game had that kind of market share, Then they could do it too....
Charge as much as the paying customer base considers a value ? They can do that here now. It just remains to be seen if the customer base feels that way about the current prices (and by remains to be seen I am referring to whether or not the product sells, not whether or not a portion of the player base comes to the forums requesting a price reduction).
Of course all of this is muddied, for good or ill depending on your perspective, by the fact that those who consider spending larger sums of real world money on in game currency to be a great value can and do subsidize those who do not feel the same way. So the player who considers spending a couple of hundred dollars a month on their MMO of choice ends up paying, essentially, full price for that expensive Z-store item while the player who needs a lower price to feel he is getting value for his money spends half as much cash, plus some in game currency traded for Zen, for the same item.
My Champions Online friends have suffered a price increase over their bank slots lately, and are loudly complaining about it, but personal character bank slots there can be bought with gold. You can have somewhere around 200 of them . For your Zen , you get SHARED slots, very handy for swapping stuff between character. You get 20 for 450 zen ( I remember it being 300 last time I bought but I won't swear to that.) It's still cheaper than what you get here and ALL your alts can use them.
Its been quite a while since I last bought bank slots in CO. What was the increase if I may ask ?
This fact, above others, has an impact on the 'high' pricing of items within the Zen store. In my humble opinion.
Completely agreed. This is something I have touched upon in the past myself. In Champions Online, for example, I have seen others complain that the price of Freeform character slots is too high (I tend to agree actually) and argue that they should be priced at a fraction of the current cost. I point out that you can get them for a fraction of the current cost, plus in game currency.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Of course all of this is moot if the product sells well at the higher price. Cryptic/PWE has the data. We do not. I may think that these companies make questionable decisions, some seem outright foolish to me, but I believe it is very likely that they employ someone with sufficient business acumen to realize that if something isn't selling at a desired rate, at a certain price point, it is time to lower that price. Ultimately the power lies with the consumer. If these virtual goods sell well at a price that vocal forumites decry as a, "scam, robbery, etc," then there is no reason for the company to alter the prices.
And you are absolutely right. I don't like Wal-Mart much either, though I shop there fairly often. But in this market, When you bill something as 'Free to Play' which this game is, Its been shown to be a better idea to start small. Farmville is hugely popular among the low hardware profile players, and most of their transactions, so I have been told, are 99 cents. Not only that but they make more than some of PWE's games.
And unlike Wal-Mart, PWE doesn't have to deal with real estate, the labor issues are small, some based overseas, and beyond the initial development cost the largest expense is server bandwidth. At this point their margin is basically what they make it. Gamers can be funny customers, often like fabulously loyal children. They are like birds. They flock. Many online businesses, like twitter, are huge because of the 'flock' phenomenon. WOW, the King Kong of MMOs got its flock.
This game needs its flock too. Don't run them off with an aggressive pricing plan until they are hooked. I'm not talkin about '2 characters, did all the missions, ho hum'. I'm talking about a stable of characters, a coupla dozen good friends. My general run time with an MMO is around 3 years. And ya know what? the bigger, the better. And I have seen just how much a minefield these starts can be. So, OK you want to squeeze money outta those bank slots? Fine. Some will pay you a lot of money for them....
......BUT DO IT NEXT YEAR.....
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I'm not too sure on the CO pricing. The trade channel is still open, though I have masked it here. I was talking to BaconOverlord the other day he's an old hand over there and would know
This is a key point. Do you think that there will be a continuous influx of new paying players over the years ? If not then you are talking about raising prices after the people, perhaps the core die hard players, who will actually be here next year have already purchased what they need of those bank slots. And if those core players that around for the long haul (keep in mind that PWE's self described business model indicates that they consider an MMO to have a life span of between three and five years) do end up needing a few bank slots next year, or the year after, they are going to remember paying less for them previously...
To be perfectly frank, I do not think that Cryptic or PWE are all that interested in long term dedication and investment in their games. I believe that they look to make as much money as the market will bear early on because, "everyone knows," that MMOs paying pl;ayer base, who are always looking for the next big thing (of course this may be a self fulfilling prophecy because a game that does not invest in the long term cannot expect people to stay for the long haul), shrinks over time.
Look at ddo.
I played it for 3 years and sometimes still play it.
Its basically F2P but Im sure I burned like 80$ on this game at least. And Im a person who rarely wants to pay for sth.
But: Most of single items cost like 2-3$. Packs and others more - but basic xp potions, auguments, raid tymer bypasses - theyre not expensive.
Im sure that if they were costing 10$ I wouldnt spend a one penny. The same with my friend.
The lower is cost the more ppl buy it and the more ppl are happy.
The more expensive the less ppl buy it and players are angry that rich ppl are OP and p2w etc.
They should learn this already...
For me I was just starting to get into the game. I hate the P2W model that they use though but I could see myself having fun without it. But today on my low lvl toon (18) I got sick of having very limited bag space so I went looking for a bag, simple enough thing right? Well no vendor sells bags for gold or AD except the AH which only has the best in game I guess (24 slots). But you buy them through the Zen Market. Seriously WTF 1k zen ($10) for 24 slot bag giving me 24 more slots... on 1 character... for $10.... WTF. Go with the cheaper option and $6 for 1 12 slot bag, still WTF. Have 4 lockbox's sitting and need 4 keys, 115 zen per key just so I can open something that is a rare drop with an utterly ridiculous rate of being trash.
Now I wouldn't mind spending $15 a month for a sub at all. But I'm not going to shell out $100's of dollars just for 1 toon to manage basic stuff. I'm also not going to farm 350k Astral Diamonds just to get 1 bag not that I could on a lvl 18 or even a level 30. Its just not worth it. Just when starting to enjoy the game having it ruined. I don't see how anyone can actually be so stupid to spend $100's of dollars just to have basic stuff on 1 toon. Now I don't mind stuff that goes account wide such as the Champions Online stuff often and lot of other things but prices on what people would call essential to game play should be very reasonable to the wallet.
For me I was just starting to get into the game. I hate the P2W model that they use though but I could see myself having fun without it. But today on my low lvl toon (18) I got sick of having very limited bag space so I went looking for a bag, simple enough thing right? Well no vendor sells bags for gold or AD except the AH which only has the best in game I guess (24 slots). But you buy them through the Zen Market. Seriously WTF 1k zen ($10) for 24 slot bag giving me 24 more slots... on 1 character... for $10.... WTF. Go with the cheaper option and $6 for 1 12 slot bag, still WTF. Have 4 lockbox's sitting and need 4 keys, 115 zen per key just so I can open something that is a rare drop with an utterly ridiculous rate of being trash.
Now I wouldn't mind spending $15 a month for a sub at all. But I'm not going to shell out $100's of dollars just for 1 toon to manage basic stuff. I'm also not going to farm 350k Astral Diamonds just to get 1 bag not that I could on a lvl 18 or even a level 30. Its just not worth it. Just when starting to enjoy the game having it ruined. I don't see how anyone can actually be so stupid to spend $100's of dollars just to have basic stuff on 1 toon. Now I don't mind stuff that goes account wide such as the Champions Online stuff often and lot of other things but prices on what people would call essential to game play should be very reasonable to the wallet.
There are 2 bags you can get through questing.
The first is Blacklake District, which you should be in at level 18. (I could be mistaken)
The second is Neverdeath Graveyard at around 30ish level.
No need to buy bags, imo.
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gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is a key point. Do you think that there will be a continuous influx of new paying players over the years ? If not then you are talking about raising prices after the people, perhaps the core die hard players, who will actually be here next year have already purchased what they need of those bank slots. And if those core players that around for the long haul (keep in mind that PWE's self described business model indicates that they consider an MMO to have a life span of between three and five years) do end up needing a few bank slots next year, or the year after, they are going to remember paying less for them previously...
To be perfectly frank, I do not think that Cryptic or PWE are all that interested in long term dedication and investment in their games. I believe that they look to make as much money as the market will bear early on because, "everyone knows," that MMOs paying pl;ayer base, who are always looking for the next big thing (of course this may be a self fulfilling prophecy because a game that does not invest in the long term cannot expect people to stay for the long haul), shrinks over time.
And Like Wal-Mart.... there is WOW. 9 years, still with 8 million subscribers. It replaced AOL as THE online cash cow. PWE can say what they want, everyone can believe what they want, But I'll bet that almost every project manager, business consultant, concept artist involved in this used WOW to motivate either themselves or their co-workers. Everyone one this business talks about 'the next WOW'. If PWE wanted to Just do short run games, they wouldn't be paying for big name rights like Star Trek and D&D.
I dream a bit too. Years ago a buddy of mine bought what TSR was marketing as 'The Dungeon Master's Assistant" or something like that. If you ever DM'd in the PnP game you know how much work it was. Well this program was a piece of junk - buggy, more trouble than it was worth. He broke the disk after about a week. but it got us thinking. What if we could all sit around in the same room and play with a computer terminal for maps and such... none of us wanted to give up the dice though.. too much mojo The old SSI dungeon crawls were fun for a bit, but they were too repetitive, generally ugly and you had to play by yourself. But today MMOs and the web have ironed out most of glitches, and you can get a genuine group experience going anytime day or night 24/7. with anybody in the world. Not only that, but the little short smurfy character look that turned me off on the original Neverwinter (and WOW too) is gone.
So from my perspective the potential here is HUGE. You can even make your own content. And looking at it right now I'd like nothing better than to be sitting here 10 years from now, putting in 20 to 40 hours a month slaying dragons and laughing about dying with my friends. I don't care for the nickel and dime approach here. we all know what CAN happen. after all its fantasy, why not think BIG
Zen prices should be lowered 70% of the players lives at home with their parents. and aren't filthy rich in real life or have a dirty gold selling company that makes money sleeping and spam the zone chat 200 times within 2 mins. Make a post restriction's and MAC ID those stupid game ruining people that sell gold that is against the eula and terms.
also ban exploiters cheaters hackers that should fix a whole lot of shiet that is going on now. would make the economy a whole lot healthier. A Full whipe would be a way to go before going live with all the exploits during BETA etc.
13 euro for 24 slot bag? 8 euro for a 12 slot bag? 45/50 euro FOR ONE mount? Please come on.
None of your games is this expensive in ZEN so why is neverwinter?.
Even though the prices of zen are ridiculous THE AD exploit bug brught more than BILLION's of free AD into the game that made prices sky rocket and not worth in exchanging zen to AD or vice versa.
And maybe you don't really need the bags or the mount but affordable would be sweet. 20/25 euro 30$ would be a way better price look at other FREE TO PLAY MMOS.
You should make a store affordable for everyone and not only Filthy rich people that's unfair from a game.
Maybe even taking people on a P*ss.
0
gek1956Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Zen prices should be lowered 70% of the players lives at home with their parents. and aren't filthy rich in real life or have a dirty gold selling company that makes money sleeping and spam the zone chat 200 times within 2 mins. Make a post restriction's and MAC ID those stupid game ruining people that sell gold that is against the eula and terms.
also ban exploiters cheaters hackers that should fix a whole lot of shiet that is going on now. would make the economy a whole lot healthier. A Full whipe would be a way to go before going live with all the exploits during BETA etc.
13 euro for 24 slot bag? 8 euro for a 12 slot bag? 45/50 euro FOR ONE mount? Please come on.
None of your games is this expensive in ZEN so why is neverwinter?.
Even though the prices of zen are ridiculous THE AD exploit bug brught more than BILLION's of free AD into the game that made prices sky rocket and not worth in exchanging zen to AD or vice versa.
And maybe you don't really need the bags or the mount but affordable would be sweet. 20/25 euro 30$ would be a way better price look at other FREE TO PLAY MMOS.
You should make a store affordable for everyone and not only Filthy rich people that's unfair from a game.
Maybe even taking people on a P*ss.
just a word on your demographics, hinuka. statistics show that the average gamer is 30 years old. surprised?
go here or google up some number of your own. I'm over 55 myself
And the zen market obeys the laws of supply and demand, the more sold in game per 1000 AD's the cheaper they will be
PWE/Cryptic would only lose money trying to fix the prices here.
But rave on, cuz some of the gouging here is bad for the game.
Well, Personaly, I hope PWE keeps it up, the more they do, the bigger the crowd gets who are sick of the F2P mentality. Then we can get back to quality games and FINALLY end this HAMSTER that keeps being vomited out for the gaming community by massive corporations that just see dollar signs and have zero love of the genre.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The bottom line is Cryptic told the truth you can do everything in this game for free if you choose to, I could care less about Zen prices, since I really don't need to buy it, I just wish you could make this kind of bank in every MMO.
Comments
my logic
PWE staff's economy plan was
Zen worth more than AD
AD worth more than Gold
Gold worth more than Silver
Silver worth more than Copper
but in actuality, there are still players in zone chat offering Zen to buy items, for less than 1/10 the # of Zen needed, in gold ( that is offering things that cost over 100 Zen for only 10 Gold )
if
10 Zen is worth LESS than 1 Gold, ( 10000 copper )
and
300 AD is worth less than 1 Zen ( 3,000 AD to make less than 10 Zen)
then
1 AD is worth less than 4 Copper, and 1 Zen is worth less than 10 Silver.
edit to add: if there was less gold sinks, and a better "value for Zen/AD", in the respective stores, maybe the economy wouldn't be fraked.
Now Ashensnow, this is just textbook armchair business.However the attitude here isn't likely to get you far with your customer base. So you want to TRAIN your customers? To spend more money instead of less? That's interesting... makes me feel like a lab rat. How much money do lab rats spend on games? I refer you to my post #56 on page 6 for my thinking on this.
YOur wrong about lowering prices that dont equal better sales. I work in sales. YOu dont understand how sales and marketing work.
Say you have a store and sales are slumping abit. Having a sale does bring in more cash. Say your $10 dollar item reduced to 5 bucks. People dont usually go into the store for that one item thats on sale they will buy other items from the store also and end up spending more then just 10dollars. And also usually if an item is on for 50% off your normal price its going to sell more then double the units you normally sell. Plus sales and lower prices makes people happy and they tell more friends about the good times and great prices they got.
Which means more users and people willing to pay PW money
The attitude here is that it is good to provide as many customers as possible with the product they desire at a price they find reasonable. You consider that inappropriate ? Not armchair at all, for what its worth. Twenty-five very successful years experience in sales and marketing based around the idea that providing value can have a higher return, over the long run, than relying on flash and gimmicks. Value is subjective. What one customer finds to be a great value will be seen by another as overpriced, and by another as less that what he considered the product to be worth to him.
As to the, "TRAIN," comment...I find it odd that you would react as you did as I expressed that as a negative, not a positive.
On the other hand I expect that if you asked around you would find relatively few for profit businesses that prefer that their customers spend less rather than more. If you feel like a lab rat because Coke would rather you buy a twelve pack per week than per month you might want to reconsider your feelings. The reality of the matter is that every company wants you to buy their product, and wants you to buy more rather than less. They spend a lot of money (dear gods a lot) and effort on figuring out how to get you to do so. That is not because you are a lab rat. It is because you have something they want, just as, ideally, they have something you want. Now its just a matter of finding that middle ground where you both walk away happy with that you got.
I did not say that.
You might want to read my post again.
You are mistaken.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I have 2 level 60's decently geared (10k TR and 10.5k DC). I have a 50ish CW and 40ish GF.
I am afforded the ability to play often as I'm retired and a student.
That being said, I haven't spent one thin penny.
I have the 2500 Zen, 110% mount, I have 4 extra character slots and 2 Ioun Stones and one Acolyte. I do not buy any bags as you get 2 through questing and it's enough, for me.
The key is you must do dungeons at 60, specifically dungeon delves. Then you can get items, post to AH and profit. Then all it takes is an easy AD - Zen conversion. Viola! You can buy things.
I understand some may not have the time I do. I suggest using some cash supplemented by AD exchange.
Really? who does more business? Wal-Mart or Montgomery Ward? It's just as much about where you are going as what you are doing. I have seen 2 PWE/Cryptic games stagger along, straining mightily to squeeze every penny they can out of a small dedicated niche market group. I don't think that's what they are aiming for here. I think they want a larger market.. and BTW.. even the mighty Wal-Mart knows how to knock up a price just because they know some customers would rather one stop than go some where else....
But that comes later, first you get this snowball rolling, when its big enough, then you can Open a nice showroom for Tiffany and Cadillac players. start small.....
.....Think big .......
WalMart and this game are not analogous. To suggest so shows a rudimentary understanding of economics.
For instance, I earn AD in game. I convert said AD into Zen, or cash. I spend said Zen on the items you bemoan their cost outrageous cost.
If you took the time to read my post you'd know that you don't have to spend actual money in the Zen store. Alas, you seem to only want to wail and moan about a virtual item and its pricing point. Whilst, ignoring the other function within this game of earning AD and converting to Zen.
Good luck with that.
Blogging is a great way to relax between dungeons... TRY IT, YOU"LL LIKE IT.
Hey all you sales guys.. There's a marketing classic for you
And Pray tell where does the stuff you buy on the auction house actually come from? From customers who spend REAL ZEN. Now, would you rather pay .... lets use the hero asset as an example here... 100k ADs for one, or the current 250-300k ADs its going for on the market now? You know that if the supplier's cost dropped, he could drop his price. Do you watch the zen market here? I'll bet you read stock reports in RL. There is a real economy here. It can BOOM or BUST. Gamers, not businessman, can turn the tide in a game economy . There are games with PROSPERITY. Then there are a lot of dead games and some Ghettos. It's a fine line. How do you stay on the good side of it?
Thank you for choosing an example that demonstrates my point. Wal-Mart has the ability to sell below their current prices without killing their margin. They choose not to do so because they are attempting to provide value while charging as much as they can (without giving ceding market share to their competitors) for their products. They are following essentially the same principles I mention in the post you quoted.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Er...the stuff on the AH comes from players doing Dungeons and selling their loot.
The AD can come both from Zen (founders packs, etc...) and dailies.
This is how it works.
Loot items - sell for AD - convert to Zen.
It's simple, really, I've done it and I'm no great economics wizard.
You can still cry out "It's only pay to win!". That doesn't make it true.
Wal-Mart has a near monopoly on the retail industry...Crytpic does not have this on MMOs.
Wal-Mart uses exploitative labor and a largely government subsidized workforce...Crytpic does not.
Wal-Mart has bullied and/or bought out much of its smaller competition...Crytpic has not.
Wal-Mart has invested heavily in real estate to ensure its stores are prominent in most communities...Cryptic has not.
There are a myriad of other examples but I suspect you won't really care.
It's like making the argument that the Governments debts are the same as my household debts. Simplistic reasoning meant to enrage or sustain an audiences ideology but also incorrect.
Some stuff you have to pay for. The hero asset I mentioned only comes from lock boxes and professional packs.. and even then you are spending money on a gamble ,either way. Hey I buy and sell lots of loot myself. Since my OP was so big I left out some of the perfectly reasonable prices. Life scrolls healing stones are fine. Too cheap and people begin to play poorly because of it. I actually think the of the mounts more as status symbols than anything else. Decreasing their value would be a shame.. A caddy wouldn't be a caddy if Bob the bus driver could afford one. But the price of storage space is simply gouging. It's one of the first price hurdles every new player runs up on. I've heard more than one 'FTP Yeah Right' simply because this issue. IMO That is poor PR. Therefore bad marketing.
My Champions Online friends have suffered a price increase over their bank slots lately, and are loudly complaining about it, but personal character bank slots there can be bought with gold. You can have somewhere around 200 of them . For your Zen , you get SHARED slots, very handy for swapping stuff between character. You get 20 for 450 zen ( I remember it being 300 last time I bought but I won't swear to that.) It's still cheaper than what you get here and ALL your alts can use them.
1) I did not equate Wal-Mart's practices to virtual store items in NW.
2) Wal Mart does not have anything even close to a monopoly on the retail industry.
I did respond to someone who was using Wal Mart vs a now defunct former competitor (Montgomery Wards) as an example.
My point, all along, was in response to a question from someone expressing that they did not understand why there would be any reason to start with prices higher rather than lower. My point then, as it is now, was that starting with prices higher and then lowering them to suit demand allowed for the possibility that everyone could get an item at a price they considered a good value.
Example 1:
The customer who considered $10 a good value would buy it then.
The customer who considers $6.50 a good value might buy the item when it reached that price.
And the customer who considers $3 a good value might buy it then.
Everyone gets the item at what they consider to be a good value.
Example 2:
If you go in reverse, starting an item at $3 then
The customer who considers $3 a good deal buys.
The customer who considers $6.50 to be a great deal for the item pays only $3.
The customer who considers $10 to be a great deal for the item pays only $10.
Everyone gets the item at what they consider a good value (as in example 1) but the company gets less revenue.
Of course all of this is moot if the product sells well at the higher price. Cryptic/PWE has the data. We do not. I may think that these companies make questionable decisions, some seem outright foolish to me, but I believe it is very likely that they employ someone with sufficient business acumen to realize that if something isn't selling at a desired rate, at a certain price point, it is time to lower that price. Ultimately the power lies with the consumer. If these virtual goods sell well at a price that vocal forumites decry as a, "scam, robbery, etc," then there is no reason for the company to alter the prices.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Now follow my mind here.... If this game had that kind of market share, Then they could do it too....
I must have misunderstood your post. Apologies.
However, because I'm being pedantic
This fact, above others, has an impact on the 'high' pricing of items within the Zen store. In my humble opinion.
Charge as much as the paying customer base considers a value ? They can do that here now. It just remains to be seen if the customer base feels that way about the current prices (and by remains to be seen I am referring to whether or not the product sells, not whether or not a portion of the player base comes to the forums requesting a price reduction).
Of course all of this is muddied, for good or ill depending on your perspective, by the fact that those who consider spending larger sums of real world money on in game currency to be a great value can and do subsidize those who do not feel the same way. So the player who considers spending a couple of hundred dollars a month on their MMO of choice ends up paying, essentially, full price for that expensive Z-store item while the player who needs a lower price to feel he is getting value for his money spends half as much cash, plus some in game currency traded for Zen, for the same item.
Its been quite a while since I last bought bank slots in CO. What was the increase if I may ask ?
Completely agreed. This is something I have touched upon in the past myself. In Champions Online, for example, I have seen others complain that the price of Freeform character slots is too high (I tend to agree actually) and argue that they should be priced at a fraction of the current cost. I point out that you can get them for a fraction of the current cost, plus in game currency.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
And you are absolutely right. I don't like Wal-Mart much either, though I shop there fairly often. But in this market, When you bill something as 'Free to Play' which this game is, Its been shown to be a better idea to start small. Farmville is hugely popular among the low hardware profile players, and most of their transactions, so I have been told, are 99 cents. Not only that but they make more than some of PWE's games.
And unlike Wal-Mart, PWE doesn't have to deal with real estate, the labor issues are small, some based overseas, and beyond the initial development cost the largest expense is server bandwidth. At this point their margin is basically what they make it. Gamers can be funny customers, often like fabulously loyal children. They are like birds. They flock. Many online businesses, like twitter, are huge because of the 'flock' phenomenon. WOW, the King Kong of MMOs got its flock.
This game needs its flock too. Don't run them off with an aggressive pricing plan until they are hooked. I'm not talkin about '2 characters, did all the missions, ho hum'. I'm talking about a stable of characters, a coupla dozen good friends. My general run time with an MMO is around 3 years. And ya know what? the bigger, the better. And I have seen just how much a minefield these starts can be. So, OK you want to squeeze money outta those bank slots? Fine. Some will pay you a lot of money for them....
......BUT DO IT NEXT YEAR.....
This is a key point. Do you think that there will be a continuous influx of new paying players over the years ? If not then you are talking about raising prices after the people, perhaps the core die hard players, who will actually be here next year have already purchased what they need of those bank slots. And if those core players that around for the long haul (keep in mind that PWE's self described business model indicates that they consider an MMO to have a life span of between three and five years) do end up needing a few bank slots next year, or the year after, they are going to remember paying less for them previously...
To be perfectly frank, I do not think that Cryptic or PWE are all that interested in long term dedication and investment in their games. I believe that they look to make as much money as the market will bear early on because, "everyone knows," that MMOs paying pl;ayer base, who are always looking for the next big thing (of course this may be a self fulfilling prophecy because a game that does not invest in the long term cannot expect people to stay for the long haul), shrinks over time.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I played it for 3 years and sometimes still play it.
Its basically F2P but Im sure I burned like 80$ on this game at least. And Im a person who rarely wants to pay for sth.
But: Most of single items cost like 2-3$. Packs and others more - but basic xp potions, auguments, raid tymer bypasses - theyre not expensive.
Im sure that if they were costing 10$ I wouldnt spend a one penny. The same with my friend.
The lower is cost the more ppl buy it and the more ppl are happy.
The more expensive the less ppl buy it and players are angry that rich ppl are OP and p2w etc.
They should learn this already...
Now I wouldn't mind spending $15 a month for a sub at all. But I'm not going to shell out $100's of dollars just for 1 toon to manage basic stuff. I'm also not going to farm 350k Astral Diamonds just to get 1 bag not that I could on a lvl 18 or even a level 30. Its just not worth it. Just when starting to enjoy the game having it ruined. I don't see how anyone can actually be so stupid to spend $100's of dollars just to have basic stuff on 1 toon. Now I don't mind stuff that goes account wide such as the Champions Online stuff often and lot of other things but prices on what people would call essential to game play should be very reasonable to the wallet.
The first is Blacklake District, which you should be in at level 18. (I could be mistaken)
The second is Neverdeath Graveyard at around 30ish level.
No need to buy bags, imo.
And Like Wal-Mart.... there is WOW. 9 years, still with 8 million subscribers. It replaced AOL as THE online cash cow. PWE can say what they want, everyone can believe what they want, But I'll bet that almost every project manager, business consultant, concept artist involved in this used WOW to motivate either themselves or their co-workers. Everyone one this business talks about 'the next WOW'. If PWE wanted to Just do short run games, they wouldn't be paying for big name rights like Star Trek and D&D.
I dream a bit too. Years ago a buddy of mine bought what TSR was marketing as 'The Dungeon Master's Assistant" or something like that. If you ever DM'd in the PnP game you know how much work it was. Well this program was a piece of junk - buggy, more trouble than it was worth. He broke the disk after about a week. but it got us thinking. What if we could all sit around in the same room and play with a computer terminal for maps and such... none of us wanted to give up the dice though.. too much mojo
So from my perspective the potential here is HUGE. You can even make your own content. And looking at it right now I'd like nothing better than to be sitting here 10 years from now, putting in 20 to 40 hours a month slaying dragons and laughing about dying with my friends. I don't care for the nickel and dime approach here. we all know what CAN happen. after all its fantasy, why not think BIG
also ban exploiters cheaters hackers that should fix a whole lot of shiet that is going on now. would make the economy a whole lot healthier. A Full whipe would be a way to go before going live with all the exploits during BETA etc.
13 euro for 24 slot bag? 8 euro for a 12 slot bag? 45/50 euro FOR ONE mount? Please come on.
None of your games is this expensive in ZEN so why is neverwinter?.
Even though the prices of zen are ridiculous THE AD exploit bug brught more than BILLION's of free AD into the game that made prices sky rocket and not worth in exchanging zen to AD or vice versa.
And maybe you don't really need the bags or the mount but affordable would be sweet. 20/25 euro 30$ would be a way better price look at other FREE TO PLAY MMOS.
You should make a store affordable for everyone and not only Filthy rich people that's unfair from a game.
Maybe even taking people on a P*ss.
just a word on your demographics, hinuka. statistics show that the average gamer is 30 years old. surprised?
go here or google up some number of your own. I'm over 55 myself
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q='mmo%20demographjics%202012'&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CEkQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geekquality.com%2Faverage-gamer-myth%2F&ei=GHXJUcf3HueM0QGm2IGIDA&usg=AFQjCNEOHT-kAWi7m-BoDuVUhBzfVrD7hw&bvm=bv.48293060,d.eWU
And the zen market obeys the laws of supply and demand, the more sold in game per 1000 AD's the cheaper they will be
PWE/Cryptic would only lose money trying to fix the prices here.
But rave on, cuz some of the gouging here is bad for the game.
Pretty much this.