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  • wholyhandgrenadewholyhandgrenade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    brun2000 wrote: »
    Now tell me, could it be possible to complete an epic dungeon (legit way) without a cleric?

    as a cleric I could care less most of the time if my party completes a dungeon or not, I seldom ever win any of the good dice rolls, then I simply leave at the end when everyone else is loaded up with high level gems and the like... good luck, if I don't get a share of the normal drop treasure for all my effort I don't care if anyone gets end treasure
  • morthanosmorthanos Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Why is it, whenever somebody comes to the forums to voice their frustration, somebody else feels the need either to brag or belittle? Not helpful...

    After months of PvP, getting rolled, getting better, and learning what other classes do, I believe the most important parts of success after player skill and experience are gear and team cooperation. Builds and class mechanics are a distant fifth and sixth.

    I personally hated resilience and I hate varying mechanics between PvP and PvE. I DO like the idea of adding a second build option, should be an easy change.

    I have seen every class roll and get rolled by every class, except one. If any class in the game has a right to complain, in my opinion, it's the Devoted Cleric. Perhaps I just haven't played against really skilled players and/or those built for PvP, but 1 on 1 they seem to have the least chance to win. I think players who really love PvP, generally speaking, don't choose healers. I'm sure there are exceptions.

    My big complaint about PvP is my "Control" Wizard seems to have less control, 1 on 1, than 3 of the 4 other classes.

    Fortunately, 1 on 1 dominance is not the only part, or even necessarily the most important part, of being successful. Both a Cleric and a Wizard are much more dangerous in tandem with other group members, and in those situations can easily make the difference between winning and losing.

    I have gone through a lot of builds. Some recommended by others, some of my own invention. It took a long time to find one that works for me, but I finally managed to massage one that works pretty well in both PvE and PvP. I had to sacrifice crit to make it work, something most "experts" claim is the most important stat for my class. I disagree, not based on numbers, but my own style. For pure damage, crit may be the most important stat, but for the way I play, it isn't the most important for success.

    My advice: read the forums, see what others say and do, ignore those who are not trying to help, and then try things for yourself. You'll find something that works for you. Will you always win? No. Never wipe? Of course not.

    The other guy is trying just as hard as you and there is always a learning curve. Very few of us are the "most skilled." There are always going to be guys I can't beat. But I can have fun, win a few (some days a lot! others not so much), and get better.

    It'll come if you stick with it.
  • snowballosnowballo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    GF's that do 20k+ crit must be using Knight's challenge and Anvil of Doom which in no way is a viable point for complain as for that to work you are already considered pretty much dead to begin with and they sacrificed 2 much better skills for it.

    GF's that use Knight's Challenge are suicidal and if you have even the slightest idea of what the heck you'r supposed to do in pvp you will make those GF's regret using that skill.

    GF's not having a trade-off/weakness for the other stuff they have?
    Let alone the fact that Cryptic is still incapable of fixing the issue GF's have with blocking, GF's are utterly slow and rely on their encounters only. You dodge their 2 CC encounters, and the GF is 100x less harmful.
    There's the point though, baddies don't know when to dodge, don't realize that GF's have many weaknesses and just go straight in, hold down their left button and wonder why they die.

    The only OP thing out there which doesn't belong in PvP is stacking (Greater)Tenebrous enchants with a plaguefire to trigger them.
    That is not an issue of any class (although it's stronger on a GF due to the high hp) but an issue with a broken enchant allowing for 8k frontloaded dmg on top of actual skill dmg.
    Remove/nerf Tenebrous enchant into the ground and pvp will be a much better place.

    After that take a look at soulforged in pvp, as that's another one of those things that doesn't belong in pvp, greater version giving 4 sec invincibility on any class...
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  • izatarizatar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Just as a point of data, my cleric has been 1-shot by a guardian fighter while standing in hallowed ground stacked on astral shield with 27% defense. Of course, I suspect these guardians are max gear and playing with stacked buffs from potions and teammate buffs.
  • thalackallathalackalla Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    PvP need to have completely different skills for all aspects of play.
    PvP gear would have all the PVP skill adders so that higher rank PVP rep is granted higher and higher Armor sets.

    PvE can have all the skills currently in the game.

    Yes, there will be some crossover like health but a level 20 rank 5 PvP and a level 50 rank 2 would be a much closer match than it is now.

    This gives the designers the ability to tune each game facet and isolate issues that arise independently of play style.
  • osiabunnyosiabunny Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    leshil40 wrote: »
    That's why games like WoW added resilience.

    It was aweful idea in EQ2, it was awful in WoW. Why Blizzard hired that guy when he brought EQ2 to ruin with his ideas.. Resilience is one of the worst things to add into pvp.
  • esteenaesteena Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1
    edited June 2013
    brun2000 wrote: »
    Here is my reply: I am a TR with 30% damage reduction and that **** still happens, 4 shot is an expression, what he wants to say is that he keeps you going up and down, up and down, up and down, and when you are not, switch to defense mode, recharge cooldowns, repeat the process, thats how a GF is working right now, GF are supposed to deal low damage but high defences and it has High damage and High defences, tr is supposed to be how it is, then clerics should have a bit more power and CW are fine the way they are cuz they have shields and knockbacks to keep you away
    ...
    You understand now? GF is the one making bad balance in this game, every other is fine!

    30% on a TR? i think you are using the defense slotted rings then else there is no way you can reach that much defense , which in return will make your damage low as **** which is probably why GFs are whipping your HAMSTER.

    "CWs are fine the way they are because they have shield and knockbacks" you are kind of opposing your own words here, you are objecting on GFs being able to knock you back all the time and not being able to kill them while you are totally fine with CWs knock back and stun locks that can kill you before you even reach them.
  • awwyissmfbcawwyissmfbc Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    barq3t wrote: »
    Cuz you know being 1-hited by a Tank class

    Bull****

    Straight up. Lie more please.
  • vold316vold316 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Meant for those who don't really know the meaning of the roles:
    [SIZE=3][color=black][B]Controller:[/B] They focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain. Some classes, such as Wizards and Invokers, are focused towards ranged combat, while Druids can specialize in ranged or melee combat.
    
    [B]Defender:[/B] They focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Defender classes are typically focused on melee combat, however some classes such as Swordmages also have ranged combat capabilities.
    
    [B]Leader:[/B] They focus on buffing and healing allies. Some classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
    
    [B]Striker:[/B] They focus on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks. Some classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.[/color][/SIZE]
    
    [SIZE=3][color=black]CW = Controller (Primary).
    DC = Leader (Primary), Controller (Secondary).
    TR = Striker (Primary).
    GF = Defender (Primary).
    GWF = Striker & Defender (Secondary).[/color][/SIZE]
    
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  • canishelixcanishelix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 49
    edited June 2013
    Just play a GF or GWF now...

    thx to those whiners ... the game gets screwed up..
  • ruboilonmycoccyxruboilonmycoccyx Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I agree about the clerics entirely. That needs fixing.
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  • xermellxermell Member Posts: 56
    edited June 2013
    barq3t wrote: »
    Dear Cryptic/PWE I want to ask when can we expect some major PvP balance changes? Cuz you know being 1-hited by a Tank class, while being almost 12k gs tr with a really good gear is pretty insane. Being knocked/cced from 100 to 0 hp is also not really nice. And jesus, what did you do to those poor clerics? I can kill most of them in 2-4 sec:/ You're probably aware of those things (or at least you should be) so I'm asking again when are you plan to bring next "big" balance patch?

    Buddy, if someone can destroy you, it doesn't mean that class is Imbalance or Overpower. Stats, Gears, Enchants plays an important role. You can kill some gf, some gf can kill you too.
    There's three ways to do things, the right way, the wrong way and the way that I do it.
  • morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    One of the main problems I think clerics suffer from is vulnerability to CC and dazing. We're...supposed to have some CC resist from wisdom, but in my experience it makes no difference to the "force choke, freeze, force choke, freeze" or "knockdown, knockdown, knockdown" chains. (insert 'die' into those chains at pretty much any point)

    Given time to actually CAST anything, we have...meh, passable survivability, but with constant stunlocks and dazing, it's difficult to do that. At the moment we're sorta relegated to spamming crappy dots on as many people as we can (since they're fire and forget sources of divinity) and keeping the rest of the team alive for a few seconds more than normal, but ultimately "survivability" is less important in PvP than "damage output".
    Keeping a team of four alive against a team of five is less useful than just contributing damage to a 5v5 murderfest.
    And that's assuming you can get the four coordinated in the first place: normally it's "keeping a lone CW alive for a few seconds by providing an easier kill for the TR harassing him, while sadly realising the other three team members have disconnected coz OMFG CLERIC WTF"

    Still, you only have to do it 4 times a day, I guess. :P
  • fauust01fauust01 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    barq3t wrote: »
    Dear Cryptic/PWE I want to ask when can we expect some major PvP balance changes? Cuz you know being 1-hited by a Tank class, while being almost 12k gs tr with a really good gear is pretty insane. Being knocked/cced from 100 to 0 hp is also not really nice. And jesus, what did you do to those poor clerics? I can kill most of them in 2-4 sec:/ You're probably aware of those things (or at least you should be) so I'm asking again when are you plan to bring next "big" balance patch?

    god ur rouge ur CC prof....

    btw u can 2-3 hit any class so why u complain ..... ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • fauust01fauust01 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    canishelix wrote: »
    Just play a GF or GWF now...

    thx to those whiners ... the game gets screwed up..

    Gwf was UNDERPOWERED b4 patch and everyone knew that. Yet u complain.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • pinkfontpinkfont Member Posts: 563 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    fauust01 wrote: »
    god ur rouge ur CC prof....

    btw u can 2-3 hit any class so why u complain ..... ?

    Rogues are only "CC-proof" if they have a particular ability (Impossible to Catch) slotted on bar. This is not an effective argument. One ability does not cancel out how ridiculous CC is in PvP and there shouldn't be mandatory skills you have to have on your ability bar just to minimize unbalanced game mechanics.
    A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
  • pinkfontpinkfont Member Posts: 563 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    fauust01 wrote: »
    Gwf was UNDERPOWERED b4 patch and everyone knew that. Yet u complain.

    Yes, everyone did know that.

    How they were before patch doesn't really matter now though.
    A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
  • llfritzllllfritzll Member Posts: 215 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    leshil40 wrote: »
    That's why games like WoW added resilience.

    while there have been several posts saying this is bad, none say why.

    resilience just adds a giant gap between people who pvp all the time and those who dont.

    the people who pvp all the time end up with the best resilience gear, and those who cant pvp all the time dont have it.

    shortly after the people who are not full time pvp players might as well not even bother going out. they have no chance of killing anyone in resilience gear.

    soon after you will hear comments like "well you just have to go die for a couple months to get some starter gear..."

    and then pvp becomes more of a joke than it already is in mmo games.
  • brun2000brun2000 Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    esteena wrote: »
    30% on a TR? i think you are using the defense slotted rings then else there is no way you can reach that much defense , which in return will make your damage low as **** which is probably why GFs are whipping your HAMSTER.

    "CWs are fine the way they are because they have shield and knockbacks" you are kind of opposing your own words here, you are objecting on GFs being able to knock you back all the time and not being able to kill them while you are totally fine with CWs knock back and stun locks that can kill you before you even reach them.
    Dude, wha kind of TR are you? I can show you pics of it, not even trying to stack defense, its just the normal items...
  • brun2000brun2000 Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    esteena wrote: »
    "CWs are fine the way they are because they have shield and knockbacks" you are kind of opposing your own words here, you are objecting on GFs being able to knock you back all the time and not being able to kill them while you are totally fine with CWs knock back and stun locks that can kill you before you even reach them.

    CW's powers are very easy to predict and dodge, whyle on GF they are instant call...
  • bagis92bagis92 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Allright people when I read those posts and whine (mostly) I think I should add something too. GF are not overpowered. Why do I think so? Because I play a lot my GF and I see what other classes are able to do. I assume you non tank can hit you for 15k without using 4x Gr Tenebrous pack or knight's challenge. Yes - that red marker on your head means "Dont get closer than 20 fts or you get killed (+100% damage to marked target and gf)". Most players actually have no idea what it is and they charge like crazy for instant death. It works both ways so you can use it for your advantage unless you get knocked back (imho thats the way it works). Tank with 4k def still can be killed. You just need to learn his tactics and use your own counter. I have almost 14k GS and other classes (with similar equ+ weap/arm enchants and... SKILL) can still take me down. Magic? I dont think so. For TRs - some of you cant even dodge boss AoEs... Tell me then - what are you expecting going into pvp and fighting against enemies who actually use brain instead of AI?

    Second thing - GS gaps. I believe equipment change a lot during fight. Solution? Make some gateways for players with similar gs or at least separate full t2 behemoths from new 60 lvls with green equ. I know its not the perfect way but well... new players would have opportunity to have some fun before walking into "purple area"
  • levander2levander2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 54
    edited June 2013
    GF is a little on the strong side. Cleric is extremely on the weak side. Everything else is relatively okay. My 2
  • levander2levander2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 54
    edited June 2013
    bagis92 wrote: »
    Allright people when I read those posts and whine (mostly) I think I should add something too. GF are not overpowered. Why do I think so? Because I play a lot my GF and I see what other classes are able to do. I assume you non tank can hit you for 15k without using 4x Gr Tenebrous pack or knight's challenge. Yes - that red marker on your head means "Dont get closer than 20 fts or you get killed (+100% damage to marked target and gf)". Most players actually have no idea what it is and they charge like crazy for instant death. It works both ways so you can use it for your advantage unless you get knocked back (imho thats the way it works). Tank with 4k def still can be killed. You just need to learn his tactics and use your own counter. I have almost 14k GS and other classes (with similar equ+ weap/arm enchants and... SKILL) can still take me down. Magic? I dont think so. For TRs - some of you cant even dodge boss AoEs... Tell me then - what are you expecting going into pvp and fighting against enemies who actually use brain instead of AI?

    Second thing - GS gaps. I believe equipment change a lot during fight. Solution? Make some gateways for players with similar gs or at least separate full t2 behemoths from new 60 lvls with green equ. I know its not the perfect way but well... new players would have opportunity to have some fun before walking into "purple area"

    I like how you added "skill". Your skill consists of a fat credit card and a clearly overpowered class. I think we have a PvP master on our hands. Very "skilled" guy.
  • bagis92bagis92 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I havent spent a single penny on that game. I'm just a stud and I cannot allow myself for that. I finish pvp mostly with stats 10+/0. I also had opportunity to play rogue with all purples (inculding swash set) and I hit 20/1 against team with 2 GF! My tank uses timeless set which is the best for pvp build (High power/Recovery) So if good equ = overpowered to you then yes... Im immortal. Moreover I have played a sh**load of other mmos since I was 10... always as tank/dps class. Its more about experience.
  • tapp3rtapp3r Member Posts: 46
    edited June 2013
    I hope they show the clerics a bit of love above all classes. The rest of the classes all seem pretty HAMSTER and fun to play right now. The cleric is just in this weird state of limbo at the moment, Not quite a dps class, not quite a healer. Not really much fun to play in pve or pvp.

    The class in in dire needs of dev love. Spells need tweaking or new ones added. feats need a overhaul and Paragon paths need adjusting. The class is just kinda boring to play at the moment. It lacks some much needed uuuumph!

    ^This. Well said! I'm almost close to quitting the game, that's how boring the class is atm. We're sitting ducks in PvP.
  • xellizxelliz Member Posts: 955 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Well I am a DC and I can't 1v1 anyone and win. Now please don't give me that **** about PVP isn't about 1v1...I am aware. However, by having zero survivability that means I can't even try to ninja cap to help my team win, because it only takes 1 person of any class other then DC to come by and kill me. Also, I understand that I don't have tier OMG gear, but I am not running around L60 pvp with all green items. My Def is not 500, but currently around 1414. As someone else said, we are slow as ****. I get run down by ever other class.

    All that being said, when I run up on a GF I expect to have to run in circles doing almost no dmg to him until someone else can help me fight them. However, what happens is I run 1/4 of a circle before he has chain stunned me with knockdowns and killed me in just a matter of seconds. If somehow they didn't kill me, I have like 10% HP and will be dead soon.
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  • holt3holt3 Member Posts: 333 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Don't go near the tank then... Tanks are meant to beat the hell out of TR's when they get a hold of them. It's your fault for not dodging him or getting to close. This isn't WOW - where you just lock a target then have a gear score fight. You need to move and use strategy. Don't come here crying because you tried to go toe to toe with the class that's built to destroy you amd you lost. Learn to PVP.
  • valaxusvalaxus Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    llfritzll wrote: »
    while there have been several posts saying this is bad, none say why.

    resilience just adds a giant gap between people who pvp all the time and those who dont. (wrong)

    the people who pvp all the time end up with the best resilience gear, and those who cant pvp all the time dont have it. (wrong)

    shortly after the people who are not full time pvp players might as well not even bother going out. they have no chance of killing anyone in resilience gear. (wrong)

    soon after you will hear comments like "well you just have to go die for a couple months to get some starter gear..."(wrong)

    and then pvp becomes more of a joke than it already is in mmo games.

    Once you have a clue about wow and resil maybe then you should comment m8. Blizz themselves admitted they made a huge mistake with it but by then it was too late. The burst damage was so high to compensate for the resil it became stupid , just stupid and a good healer with high resil was unkillable even with 2-3 people smacking on them. So rather than reduce the damage accross the board and remove resil what did the do, they removed all resil from gear, and gave everyone lv85+ 65% base resil lmao.

    They then scaled all gear in bg's, note I said in bg's, arena etc but not in open world ,so the pvp guy who did nothing else but pvp all day long ended up now being romp stomped by Mr pve guy as his gear ilevel was so much higher than the pvp gear (stats etc).

    This game is not wow and nothing like it so why do so many of you want to turn it into another wow , please for the love of god just don't.
  • brun2000brun2000 Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    holt3 wrote: »
    Don't go near the tank then... Tanks are meant to beat the hell out of TR's when they get a hold of them. It's your fault for not dodging him or getting to close. This isn't WOW - where you just lock a target then have a gear score fight. You need to move and use strategy. Don't come here crying because you tried to go toe to toe with the class that's built to destroy you amd you lost. Learn to PVP.
    Let me guess, you are GF and you are crying because you really dont want them to get nerfed, well, let me clear this thing, GF ARE MENT TO DEAL LOW DAMAGE AND HAVE HIGH SURVIVAL, AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THAT THEY HAVE HIGH DAMAGE AND HIGH SURVIVAL, THAT IS NO BALANCE NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO SAY IT, you understand now? or you need more caps to read better?
  • brun2000brun2000 Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    xelliz wrote: »
    Well I am a DC and I can't 1v1 anyone and win. Now please don't give me that **** about PVP isn't about 1v1...I am aware. However, by having zero survivability that means I can't even try to ninja cap to help my team win, because it only takes 1 person of any class other then DC to come by and kill me. Also, I understand that I don't have tier OMG gear, but I am not running around L60 pvp with all green items. My Def is not 500, but currently around 1414. As someone else said, we are slow as ****. I get run down by ever other class.

    All that being said, when I run up on a GF I expect to have to run in circles doing almost no dmg to him until someone else can help me fight them. However, what happens is I run 1/4 of a circle before he has chain stunned me with knockdowns and killed me in just a matter of seconds. If somehow they didn't kill me, I have like 10% HP and will be dead soon.
    Solution to cleric's problems, buff the base speed, done.
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