That isn't true - pvp whining forces nerfs on skills used in pve all the time - suddenly the skills become less effective in pve (sometimes more or less breaking a class - I've seen this happen) and making it harder to kill things in pve and all because of some pvpers complaining they had a hard time 1v1ing some class or another.
Mobs never complain when they get killed by some class.
THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
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apocrs1980Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
That isn't true - pvp whining forces nerfs on skills used in pve all the time - suddenly the skills become less effective in pve (sometimes more or less breaking a class - I've seen this happen) and making it harder to kill things in pve and all because of some pvpers complaining they had a hard time 1v1ing some class or another.
Mobs never complain when they get killed by some class.
^^ He speaks the truth, it happened in WoW and I would hate to see all of the class's unique skills watered down just to balance them for the sake of PvP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA Ravenloft Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
^^ He speaks the truth, it happened in WoW and I would hate to see all of the class's unique skills watered down just to balance them for the sake of PvP
PvP does breaks PvE. Hence all the PvP combat and powers should be treated separately.
One example, as admitted by Andy himself in how NW combat was designed, is the duration of hold spell. In PvE, people like to hold monsters for longer duration like 7 seconds or so and strategically place themselves and do combat.
However, because of PvP, even 2 second holds in NW are considered too long because player won't like being disabled for so long. Hence all hold spell durations in Neverwinter in PvE too have been nerfed to less than 2s in PvE.
Thus saying PvP does not mess up PvE is not true - it already has. If PvP combat is treated completely separately than PvE combat with different cooldown duration, different hold sell duration - then and only then will I like PvP in a mainly PvE game.
Until now, I don't like them implementing PvP to mess up PvE. And I am an avid PvP player - though only in PvP games(which are known for PvP but no PvE).
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omocho1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited March 2013
PvP definitely needs to be in the game. It's just a requirement honestly to pad content. Fighting other people can be incredibly fun if done properly.
I for one honestly feel a lack of any reason to even do PvE content without PvP content. What's the point? I mean...so you can kill a monster a bit better than the guy beside you? Who cares, lol.
PvP puts your hard work to proper use IMO. So yeah I hope it's implemented in some ways.
With of course, no horribad PvP gear like casual MMOs such as WoW or Rift...that just ruins everything.
EDIT: Also it's very easy to have PvP versions of skills. I forget what game(s) did this...you can toggle between the PvE and the PvP description, and both can be balanced without affecting the other. It's the perfect solution, and it's easy to do. I want to say Guild Wars 2 but I honestly can't recall at 2am.
If I remember the bard hib-mezz in DAoC (20 seconds or something), the class had only two real functions
Playing songs for speed/endurance/mana regeneration and to put enemies to sleep. But in a group it was absolute necessary to have a bard around, the same for RvR and PvE.
She couldn't kill for **** anything, but was very good at getting away from enemies.
PvP definitely needs to be in the game. It's just a requirement honestly to pad content. Fighting other people can be incredibly fun if done properly.
I for one honestly feel a lack of any reason to even do PvE content without PvP content. What's the point? I mean...so you can kill a monster a bit better than the guy beside you? Who cares, lol.
PvP puts your hard work to proper use IMO. So yeah I hope it's implemented in some ways.
With of course, no horribad PvP gear like casual MMOs such as WoW or Rift...that just ruins everything.
EDIT: Also it's very easy to have PvP versions of skills. I forget what game(s) did this...you can toggle between the PvE and the PvP description, and both can be balanced without affecting the other. It's the perfect solution, and it's easy to do. I want to say Guild Wars 2 but I honestly can't recall at 2am.
I do PvE to enjoy the stories I'll never forget Rory for example...
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climaxx44Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 7Arc User
I don't really get why people are arguing over PVP so much. It will clearly be in the game, so no reason to say "I hope it won't be in the game", since it's one of the reasons it wasn't released late 2012. PVP will not be compulsory, everyone knows that also! It is first of all for fun and to widen the end-game content.
One thing I think most of you guys are clearly missing is, this game is NOT ONLY for D&D players. Of course it is based on the D&D Lore and want's to be a treat for everyone who loves D&D but it is also a FREE to play game, which means, it will/should/want's to get a wider audience than just hard core D&D fans. It is also a MMORPG, which means the more features it has, regarding the end-game, the better it is. It will clearly not be only PVP focused. But why are you saying there shouldn't be PVP? In what kind of way, does this affect you? And don't come with "valuable development time is wasted on PVP QQ.." There is an extra tool called the Foundry + also developer content so don't be affraid, you have plenty of AI to kill. Also, usually there is an extra team working on PVP and an extra team working on PVE.
For example I am not familiar with D&D and I am still hyped for this game as hell. For me self, I really want a nice MMORPG where I can do a lot of things. It should have something from everything. I love instances, don't get me wrong, I love dungeons/raids, but I definately LOVE PVP. There is nothing more satisfying than fighting with your friends against other people and making a name for you and your guild. Why should I be denied from that? See, the problem with most of today's games is that they only focus on one thing. There are no more allround MMORPGs really. Like vanilla WoW or the early Lord of the Rings online, where you had plenty of PVE, PVP, RP, Crafting, Customaziation etc. etc. I really like how NW is tending to be such an allrounder game, with a new spicy fighting system.
Just lean back, chill and expect a nice game to come out, where everyone can do what he/she wants...No reason to argue over things that have and always will devide people. PVP and PVE can perfectly exist next to each other and I sure hope Cryptic will manage to do that.
I voted yes and these are pretty much the same reason as mine, excellent post!
0
jaelrinyaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I think PvP makes no sense in a game that is heavily centered around PvE content.
The problem is that the developers won't sacrifice a lot of their precious time and money on it. Therefore most PvE games only have very basic PvP. The PvP players get bored very fast by it and move on and in the end a lot of resources have been wasted on PvP for a handfull of ever complaining PvP players that remain in the game who hope for some kind of wonder. Those resources could have been used to enhance and polish the PvE experience and made a lot more people happy.
There is also the balancing aspect to PvP. In PvP every character must have the same chances against another character regardless of class and race combinations. Otherwise the PvP crowd will go on a rampage. So all the different skills and abilities have to be balanced for PvP and PvE at the same time, which is really hard if not impossible to do. This always creates a tension between PvE players and PvP players that is unnecessary and hurts the community.
I'm not against PvP in general. But it has to be an integral part of the concept and gameplay of the whole game from the beginning. This isn't the case in Neverwinter and to many PvP gamers it will play and feel "bolted on" (which it actually is). They will be disappointed and leave the game and the PvP arenas will be dead. Instead we could have had maybe one or two more classes at launch.
I think that we would be better off without any PvP in Neverwinter. I don't see where it actually makes sense at the moment in the game and I would like them to concentrate on other aspects of the game that are far more important.
I voted "Yes" for PvP because it's also a major form of User Generated Content and therefore brings longevity to a game.
That said PvP should mainly be about skill/teamwork and not stats accumulation (meaning horizontal progression or side-grade or side-kick systems... or even separated characters like in GW1) so that RL friends may play together like they have been used in much more successful Mobas.
In a way PvP and User Generated Content is the equivalent of the "Write" feature of the web2 (ReadWriteWeb). If we don't have them we'll stay in MMO 1.0 which became a "niche" genre in the video game industry.
personally I think PvP should be left to the FPS's don't get me wrong, I love to PvP, but I would love to see the two separated into the appropriate genre's.
________________________________________
IGN: DrDoom CLS: Heretic SVR: Atlantis IND ID:1000165G030200060007250S15fb1f
________________________________________
0
betadaveMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited March 2013
God no!
But it is going to be in the game unfortunately.
I get tired of all great PVE games catering to the PVP folks when the game was CLEARLY not designed to be full PVP.
If you want to PVP play DAOC, they need the player base and it is still the best PVP game out.
0
xdreeganxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is also the balancing aspect to PvP. In PvP every character must have the same chances against another character regardless of class and race combinations. Otherwise the PvP crowd will go on a rampage. So all the different skills and abilities have to be balanced for PvP and PvE at the same time, which is really hard if not impossible to do. This always creates a tension between PvE players and PvP players that is unnecessary and hurts the community.
This, I feel, is a misnomer. I don't know where it comes from. Maybe because so much content in PvE is solo-able, and that leads to people having this feeling that their Wizard will be able to take on a Rogue, who's especially effective against squishies. And in some cases, they can. Depending on the abilities they choose to equip and the decisions they make in battle, as well as skill differences. In this game, it should be entirely plausible. But most PvP is centered around a group. Such as battle-grounds. I doubt this game will have Open World PvP. So that should show a distinct difference.
The problem, however, lies in beating back into players that not everything can be accomplished in PvP Solo, just like PvE. Especially since the character you play has a ROLE! < This is what's really hard about balancing PvP. Is balancing how a player perceives themselves, as apposed to how they are actually supposed to function. Of course this is up to the Dev Team. I can only hope they make the right decisions.
P.S: You can always make it so your abilities have extra effects when used on Characters. Which shouldn't be that hard to do. I'm sure the coders can make it so your Stun or w/e doesn't last as long as it does when used on a Player.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
PvP and PvE should be balanced separately or not be included at all. As andy himself admitted in his interview to athene, because they wanted to include PvP, they had to change the powers - i.e. the grip of control wizard does not hold for more than 2 seconds (I think it is some 1.something second).
This is because in PvP that much longer hold is considered deathgrip (due to HP being low).
In PvE that creates a problem as if the wizard grips the monster, the rogue has to reach the monster in that 1 second. That apart, the HP of monsters are higher so tere is no need to have grips for lower time. However it becomes a grind, repetable and boring to do it PvP way because unlike players, HP of monster is high.
This is just one of the way PvP interferes and make PvE a grind. Hence powers in PvP and PvE should be completely separate and treated completely independently. That would give respect to both the playstyle without bonking one for other.
I agree with the posters above. I love PVP, but rarely have I seen it done well in MMOs. So I feel it should stay in shooters and third person hack and slash games that were designed for it. Here, especially with RPG elements, pvp will be imbalanced. Microtransactions also ruins pvp gameplay.
As of right now the vote is 62-59. Almost a dead 50-50 split. As this pole demonstrates, PvE and PvP need each other in order for an MMO to survive and thrive. Take one of them away and you just lost half of your player base.
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infinityzerodunMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
It's going to be implanted in the game anyway when released.. so
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zaphtasticMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
As of right now the vote is 62-59. Almost a dead 50-50 split. As this pole demonstrates, PvE and PvP need each other in order for an MMO to survive and thrive. Take one of them away and you just lost half of your player base.
IMO the only thing this poll demonstrates is what an insignificantly small non-representative sample of forum dwellers thinks about pvp. (I'm including myself in that insignificantly small non-representative sample)
IMO the only thing this poll demonstrates is what an insignificantly small non-representative sample of forum dwellers thinks about pvp. (I'm including myself in that insignificantly small non-representative sample)
That said, saying "no pvp evar" is kind of silly.
Actually I have to disagree. I believe at well over a hundred votes, you have a solid enough foundation to establish a trend in % of opinion.
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zaphtasticMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
Actually I have to disagree. I believe at well over a hundred votes, you have a solid enough foundation to establish a trend in % of opinion.
Sure, in the context of people who actively contribute to forums -- who are typically the hardcore gamer segment. That's why I said non-representative sample. Now if it was an ingame survey presented to 1000 random players when they first logged in (at launch, not in beta -- again, different crowd), we'd have something. "Half of the player base would be gone if there was no pvp" is a stretch, 'sall I'm saying.
edit: in an attempt to remain ontopic, I'll reiterate my opinion. PVP fills a necessary niche even in PVE-focused games, since fighting scripted enemies will get boring eventually. Even if PVP is really neglected and badly implemented (COH), there'll be people doing it. The problem is when PVP changes ripple over to PVE.
elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I like both PvE and PvP. Yes PvP will be in the game there is already a PvP Event listed in the interface in Beta. However the PvP is not accessible in the BETA.
I even hope they create faction based PvP in the future, but that is unknown how it will be:
That said one factor I played WOW for 3.5 years and I also loved both PvE and the PvP. What made WOW PvP excellent was good Battlegrounds AND the two player factions Alliance(good) and Horde(evil). I played as Alliance, but I also loved to play as a cool Worgen(Werewolf) race as Alliance!
While I don't like Guild Wars 2(casual game) it had server vs server vs server PvP. While I see random groups can work for PvP Battlegrounds it would be very nice with Evil gods and an evil Faction.
Honestly we need motivation to both play as Evil or fight Evil! Award winning song from year 2011: Within Temptation - A shot in the Dark! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akoa0JowJEg
Choose 720p for good quality!
Passion! Please give that to PvP! Please give freedom to worship Evil gods and that could create excellent reason for PvP Battleground wars! Yeah and then there are those want to play evil for roleplaying reasons, but whatever reason please freedom of choice to choose Evil gods.
Ok I know maybe not realistic expectation for the release. However I would be happy if that is added also sooner or later after the release.
As long as there are PVE servers. It should be fine. MMOs, and especially PW games arent really good for their pvp. Its just an excuse to roll out microtransactions.
Man I been trying to find a key forever and been waiting for this game forever cause im looking for a Good mmo. If anyone has an extra key I swer I will love you forever and give you the best hug if you PM it to me before beta weekend is over.........I graduate college next week so would be an awesome present
0
maloy30Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited April 2013
Pvp and PVE can co exist in a game, if it is in the right manner, for example, star wars galaxies made it optional, and catered to both sides, of the gaming universe, if you wanted to pvp, you went to a certain npc in the game to switch it on or off, and it worked out fine, everyone was happy, and although the game is shut down now, the fan base to that game still is very huge and by populer demand want it brought back.
0
archanjo17041985Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
i am amazed with 48.97% of NO
i7 3770k @ 4.0//HD 7950 WF3//16 GB ram Corsair @ 1600//Corsair 120 GB SSD x 2//Hyper Evo 212
I tend to play PvE in MMOs, mostly because designers and artists focus more on elements that lend themselves to PvE (such as exploration, setting and story). That being said, I do enjoy PvP when it's done correctly. That last modifier there, correctly, is really the crux. If the PvP sucks in the game, I'll end up not playing PvP. It's just not worth the aggravation. When PvP is good, however, it's possible that I'll play it as much as PvE - especially if I end up playing several characters.
The conditions that I'll resort to being involved with mediocre PvP is when the PvE content is linear or the main narratives don't change for class or race or realm. Sadly, many F2P MMOs only have 1 linear story / quest line so PvP ends up being more important of a choice. Happily for NWN, there will be substantial different content to choose from as the Foundry gets to popping out more quest lines.
Veteran MMO player; Veteran D&D Player
From M59, UO EQ, & DaoC to the present
alaric63Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
If the OP insists on giving just two choices with this poll, I am forced to choose NO. Although my thoughts are more subtle than that. I am guessing that what ever conclusions the OP wanted, will be born out, but it will have little to no value as information to players and or Dev's.
Comments
That isn't true - pvp whining forces nerfs on skills used in pve all the time - suddenly the skills become less effective in pve (sometimes more or less breaking a class - I've seen this happen) and making it harder to kill things in pve and all because of some pvpers complaining they had a hard time 1v1ing some class or another.
Mobs never complain when they get killed by some class.
^^ He speaks the truth, it happened in WoW and I would hate to see all of the class's unique skills watered down just to balance them for the sake of PvP
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
*she
One example, as admitted by Andy himself in how NW combat was designed, is the duration of hold spell. In PvE, people like to hold monsters for longer duration like 7 seconds or so and strategically place themselves and do combat.
However, because of PvP, even 2 second holds in NW are considered too long because player won't like being disabled for so long. Hence all hold spell durations in Neverwinter in PvE too have been nerfed to less than 2s in PvE.
Thus saying PvP does not mess up PvE is not true - it already has. If PvP combat is treated completely separately than PvE combat with different cooldown duration, different hold sell duration - then and only then will I like PvP in a mainly PvE game.
Until now, I don't like them implementing PvP to mess up PvE. And I am an avid PvP player - though only in PvP games(which are known for PvP but no PvE).
I for one honestly feel a lack of any reason to even do PvE content without PvP content. What's the point? I mean...so you can kill a monster a bit better than the guy beside you? Who cares, lol.
PvP puts your hard work to proper use IMO. So yeah I hope it's implemented in some ways.
With of course, no horribad PvP gear like casual MMOs such as WoW or Rift...that just ruins everything.
EDIT: Also it's very easy to have PvP versions of skills. I forget what game(s) did this...you can toggle between the PvE and the PvP description, and both can be balanced without affecting the other. It's the perfect solution, and it's easy to do. I want to say Guild Wars 2 but I honestly can't recall at 2am.
Playing songs for speed/endurance/mana regeneration and to put enemies to sleep. But in a group it was absolute necessary to have a bard around, the same for RvR and PvE.
She couldn't kill for **** anything, but was very good at getting away from enemies.
I do PvE to enjoy the stories
I voted yes and these are pretty much the same reason as mine, excellent post!
The problem is that the developers won't sacrifice a lot of their precious time and money on it. Therefore most PvE games only have very basic PvP. The PvP players get bored very fast by it and move on and in the end a lot of resources have been wasted on PvP for a handfull of ever complaining PvP players that remain in the game who hope for some kind of wonder. Those resources could have been used to enhance and polish the PvE experience and made a lot more people happy.
There is also the balancing aspect to PvP. In PvP every character must have the same chances against another character regardless of class and race combinations. Otherwise the PvP crowd will go on a rampage. So all the different skills and abilities have to be balanced for PvP and PvE at the same time, which is really hard if not impossible to do. This always creates a tension between PvE players and PvP players that is unnecessary and hurts the community.
I'm not against PvP in general. But it has to be an integral part of the concept and gameplay of the whole game from the beginning. This isn't the case in Neverwinter and to many PvP gamers it will play and feel "bolted on" (which it actually is). They will be disappointed and leave the game and the PvP arenas will be dead. Instead we could have had maybe one or two more classes at launch.
I think that we would be better off without any PvP in Neverwinter. I don't see where it actually makes sense at the moment in the game and I would like them to concentrate on other aspects of the game that are far more important.
I voted "Yes" for PvP because it's also a major form of User Generated Content and therefore brings longevity to a game.
That said PvP should mainly be about skill/teamwork and not stats accumulation (meaning horizontal progression or side-grade or side-kick systems... or even separated characters like in GW1) so that RL friends may play together like they have been used in much more successful Mobas.
In a way PvP and User Generated Content is the equivalent of the "Write" feature of the web2 (ReadWriteWeb). If we don't have them we'll stay in MMO 1.0 which became a "niche" genre in the video game industry.
IGN: DrDoom
CLS: Heretic
SVR: Atlantis
IND ID:1000165G030200060007250S15fb1f
________________________________________
But it is going to be in the game unfortunately.
I get tired of all great PVE games catering to the PVP folks when the game was CLEARLY not designed to be full PVP.
If you want to PVP play DAOC, they need the player base and it is still the best PVP game out.
This, I feel, is a misnomer. I don't know where it comes from. Maybe because so much content in PvE is solo-able, and that leads to people having this feeling that their Wizard will be able to take on a Rogue, who's especially effective against squishies. And in some cases, they can. Depending on the abilities they choose to equip and the decisions they make in battle, as well as skill differences. In this game, it should be entirely plausible. But most PvP is centered around a group. Such as battle-grounds. I doubt this game will have Open World PvP. So that should show a distinct difference.
The problem, however, lies in beating back into players that not everything can be accomplished in PvP Solo, just like PvE. Especially since the character you play has a ROLE! < This is what's really hard about balancing PvP. Is balancing how a player perceives themselves, as apposed to how they are actually supposed to function. Of course this is up to the Dev Team. I can only hope they make the right decisions.
P.S: You can always make it so your abilities have extra effects when used on Characters. Which shouldn't be that hard to do. I'm sure the coders can make it so your Stun or w/e doesn't last as long as it does when used on a Player.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
This is because in PvP that much longer hold is considered deathgrip (due to HP being low).
In PvE that creates a problem as if the wizard grips the monster, the rogue has to reach the monster in that 1 second. That apart, the HP of monsters are higher so tere is no need to have grips for lower time. However it becomes a grind, repetable and boring to do it PvP way because unlike players, HP of monster is high.
This is just one of the way PvP interferes and make PvE a grind. Hence powers in PvP and PvE should be completely separate and treated completely independently. That would give respect to both the playstyle without bonking one for other.
That said, saying "no pvp evar" is kind of silly.
Getting good content to players in the Foundry - challenges and solutions
Handle: @zaphtastic
Actually I have to disagree. I believe at well over a hundred votes, you have a solid enough foundation to establish a trend in % of opinion.
edit: in an attempt to remain ontopic, I'll reiterate my opinion. PVP fills a necessary niche even in PVE-focused games, since fighting scripted enemies will get boring eventually. Even if PVP is really neglected and badly implemented (COH), there'll be people doing it. The problem is when PVP changes ripple over to PVE.
Getting good content to players in the Foundry - challenges and solutions
Handle: @zaphtastic
I even hope they create faction based PvP in the future, but that is unknown how it will be:
The conditions that I'll resort to being involved with mediocre PvP is when the PvE content is linear or the main narratives don't change for class or race or realm. Sadly, many F2P MMOs only have 1 linear story / quest line so PvP ends up being more important of a choice. Happily for NWN, there will be substantial different content to choose from as the Foundry gets to popping out more quest lines.
From M59, UO EQ, & DaoC to the present
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0as3Valdk4 <-