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Con (GWF) and Dex (GF) are now addative to Armor Penetration

freehugs9freehugs9 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 201 Bounty Hunter
edited June 2014 in The Militia Barracks
This is a public service announcement. ^_^

Con (GWF) and Dex (GF) are now addative to Armor Penetration.
Meaning you reduce an enemies mitigation by an additional 1% per point of Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) over 10.

Example:
Tier 2 boss, 24% mitigation. You have 15 Constitution on your Great Weapon Fighter so that reduces his mitigation to 19%.
(24-(15-10))

You also have 1853 Armor Penetration? Great, that's another 19% reducing the bosses mitigation to 0.
(24-(15-10)-35.72*ArmorPenetration^1.88/(1225520+ArmorPenetration^1.88))

Your enemies in PvE have mitigation ranging from 12.8% (e.g. archer trash mobs) to 24% (e.g. all bosses), so how much Armor Penetration do you need?
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 10, between 1271 and 2536 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 11, between 1190 and 2374 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 12, between 1110 and 2227 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 13, between 1033 and 2092 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 14, between 956 and 1969 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 15, between 879 and 1854 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 16, between 802 and 1747 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 17, between 724 and 1646 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 18, between 643 and 1550 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 19, between 559 and 1459 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 20, between 467 and 1371 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 21, between 364 and 1287 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 22, between 233 and 1206 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 23, between 0 and 1126 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 24, between 0 and 1048 for 12.8% to 24%
Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 25, between 0 and 971 for 12.8% to 24%

<Bump this thread if you find it helpful, so that other people see it>
See Neverwinter math and mechanics HERE
Post edited by freehugs9 on
«13

Comments

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    kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Rock on good sir! :D
    va8Ru.gif
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    theliethesametheliethesame Member Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Is mitigation adding damage when you have the cap you are indicating? Because my GWF's IBS with 15 con and 2300 arm pen will deal more dmg with mitigation debuff from WMS feat on a target dummy, and lower without it.So either mitigation can get to negative numbers, or something is going wrong

    (Also i didn't get any extra arm pen in my stats from today's patch so I am guessing it constitution won't give a flat arm pen stat)
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    craftymangcraftymang Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I used my free respec to set my CON to 19 on my GWF specifically because of this patch. Woo!
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    freehugs9freehugs9 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 201 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    theliethesame wrote: »
    Is mitigation adding damage when you have the cap you are indicating? Because my GWF's IBS with 15 con and 2300 arm pen will deal more dmg with mitigation debuff from WMS feat on a target dummy, and lower without it.So either mitigation can get to negative numbers, or something is going wrong

    (Also i didn't get any extra arm pen in my stats from today's patch so I am guessing it constitution won't give a flat arm pen stat)

    Armor Penetration and the bonus from Con/Dex cannot lower a targets mitigation below 0. Target Dummies have almost no mitigation so you wont see this effect on them.
    Affects that reduce an enemies defense or mitigation can reduce a targets mitigation below 0 and are applied separately.
    So your WMS debuff is entirely separate to Armor Penetration, and you can't test Armor Penetration on target dummies.
    See Neverwinter math and mechanics HERE
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    theliethesametheliethesame Member Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    freehugs9 wrote: »
    Armor Penetration and the bonus from Con/Dex cannot lower a targets mitigation below 0. Target Dummies have almost no mitigation so you wont see this effect on them.
    Affects that reduce an enemies defense or mitigation can reduce a targets mitigation below 0 and are applied separately.
    So your WMS debuff is entirely separate to Armor Penetration, and you can't test Armor Penetration on target dummies.

    Ok, thanks for the info :D
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    freehugs9freehugs9 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 201 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    No problem. ^_^
    See Neverwinter math and mechanics HERE
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    tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    These forums need to support LaTeX. Would make theory posts so much neater. Thanks for the info.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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    adhal81adhal81 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 115 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    You sir, rock.

    Did my math so I don't have too. Tyvm!

    Thing I'm curiou to now though, with ArP being our best stat, is str/con now much better than dex?

    Thinking with the extra heath as well it is, or at least maybe a balance between dex and con to even out the DR's.

    *edit* actually now that I think about it more dex is probably still they way to go since you only need 24% arp, making DR trivial
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    freehugs9freehugs9 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 201 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    adhal81 wrote: »
    Thing I'm curiou to now though, with ArP being our best stat, is str/con now much better than dex?

    Thinking with the extra heath as well it is, or at least maybe a balance between dex and con to even out the DR's.

    *edit* actually now that I think about it more dex is probably still they way to go since you only need 24% arp, making DR trivial

    Yeah beats me. ;)
    It probably depends on what gear is available, if the best set has lots of ArP anyway you don't want to stack your Con/Dex so high that its wasted. Someone with gear gear will need to report back on that.
    See Neverwinter math and mechanics HERE
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    grifterecgrifterec Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 82
    edited June 2013
    I have 15 Con currently, and well over 1850 Arpen. Are you suggesting i can now drop all the extra Arpen because it is literally doing nothing now?
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    realborealbo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Probably the most useful thread in this forum. Thank you!
    Admiralsig.png
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    belladanbelladan Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 146 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Min should be 1200, once you get t1. Right now, ArP can get into the negatives, until they fix it. When they fix it, I'll assume the standard of approx. 2200 for peak performance.
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    sanctumlolsanctumlol Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 382 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    belladan wrote: »
    Min should be 1200, once you get t1. Right now, ArP can get into the negatives, until they fix it. When they fix it, I'll assume the standard of approx. 2200 for peak performance.

    Are you sure straight ArP can take mitigation under 0 now?

    Edit: Tested it: No, you can't take mitigation under 0 with ArP.
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    grifterecgrifterec Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 82
    edited June 2013
    sanctumlol wrote: »
    Are you sure straight ArP can take mitigation under 0 now?

    Edit: Tested it: No, you can't take mitigation under 0 with ArP.

    So my prior question holds true, screw DR is any ARPEN > 1850 literally 100% useless for PVE?
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    synfoolasynfoola Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    freehugs9 wrote: »
    This is a public service announcement. ^_^

    Con (GWF) and Dex (GF) are now addative to Armor Penetration.
    Meaning you reduce an enemies mitigation by an additional 1% per point of Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) over 10.

    Example:
    Tier 2 boss, 24% mitigation. You have 15 Constitution on your Great Weapon Fighter so that reduces his mitigation to 19%.
    (24-(15-10))

    You also have 1853 Armor Penetration? Great, that's another 19% reducing the bosses mitigation to 0.
    (24-(15-10)-35.72*ArmorPenetration^1.88/(1225520+ArmorPenetration^1.88))

    Your enemies in PvE have mitigation ranging from 12.8% (e.g. archer trash mobs) to 24% (e.g. all bosses), so how much Armor Penetration do you need?
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 10, between 1270 and 2535 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 11, between 1189 and 2373 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 12, between 1110 and 2226 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 13, between 1032 and 2092 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 14, between 955 and 1968 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 15, between 878 and 1853 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 16, between 801 and 1746 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 17, between 723 and 1645 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 18, between 642 and 1549 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 19, between 558 and 1458 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 20, between 466 and 1370 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 21, between 363 and 1286 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 22, between 232 and 1205 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 23, between 0 and 1125 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 24, between 0 and 1047 for 12.8% to 24%
    Con (GWF) or Dex (GF) of 25, between 0 and 970 for 12.8% to 24%

    <Bump this thread if you find it helpful, so that other people see it>

    Bumped and a thank you for this, Hugs. :)
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    freehugs9freehugs9 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 201 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    grifterec wrote: »
    I have 15 Con currently, and well over 1850 Arpen. Are you suggesting i can now drop all the extra Arpen because it is literally doing nothing now?

    Yes, all GWF and GF have their Dex or Con at least as high as 15 so 1854 is a HARD cap in PvE and all points beyond that have 0 value.
    Actually if you want to get super technical some mobs like Berserkers self-buff with damage reduction and ArP over 24% might increase your damage on them...but nobody's should take more ArP just for this.


    Everyone, I'm just going to tweak these values so they're over the cap rather than rounding off to the cap. Don't worry though, this will only change the values by a single point if at all.
    See Neverwinter math and mechanics HERE
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    sanctumlolsanctumlol Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 382 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    grifterec wrote: »
    So my prior question holds true, screw DR is any ARPEN > 1850 literally 100% useless for PVE?

    (Dex-10)+ArP = 24 anything past 24 is a 0% dps increase.
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    veleriawhitewolfveleriawhitewolf Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 68
    edited June 2013
    This was extremely useful information. Thank you for the breakdown.
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    bananachefbananachef Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Nice not having to itemize toward ArP as a Con GWF since it's hardcapped. Stack the hell out recovery, convert 25% to ArP, have a random pieces with 150 ArP here and there, hit the cap :d


    Also does this make constitution focus somewhat valuable for pvp? 3 points into it is ~2% ignore if you have 22-24 CON. Which is worth more Arpen the higher you stack it. Although arguably there's a hardcap there as well as soon as you ignore even GF resist. May not be worth trying to negate GF resists and stick to getting TR/CW armors to 0%. Too bad there's nothing you can do against TR's 75% deflect severity.
    2 GWFS, 3 TRs, 2 GFs, 1 HR, 1 CW
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    belladanbelladan Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 146 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Yup Yup. Next up for min/maxing the GWF is to figure out the scaling at 98% max. If an item has say... +528 more power and you loose say... 0.7% ArP; which would you choose? ^_^

    GWF numbers are more complex then some other classes due to the feat system shifting our particular scaling.
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    spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Very nice, I was actually curious if switching to dex as my secondary would get me in trouble but it looks like I'll be fine after all! Appreciate the crunching!
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
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    kolbe11kolbe11 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Thank you for this, very nice indeed!
    "It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
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    moonbamoonba Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 38
    edited June 2013
    It's not a GF's nor a GWF's role to dps a boss. That's a TR's role and perhaps CW as well since their most damaging spell is Arcane Missile.

    I think a GF or GWF should aim for the "Strikers and Leaders" mitigation cap which is 16.2% or 18%

    Let's say you want to achieve 18%. Then let's remove your AbilityScoreBonus from this (5% if you have 15CON on GWF) and call it your DesiredCap.


    Then it's quite simple, you have to match your ArPen rating so that : DesiredCap = 35.72*ArmorPenetration^1.88/(1225377+ArmorPenetration^1.88)

    (That's roughly 1300 if you have 15 CON)
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    asashiroasashiro Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I still see dmg getting (resisted) despite having almost 28% arpen -- haven't changed enchants since the con/dex change.

    Is it that 24% is not the most resistance from mobs or that you cannot take it down to 0%?
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    etherealjetherealj Member Posts: 1,091 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    How does plaguefire interact with stat based armor reduction? Do you calculate the %reduction in defense before determining the hard cap for arp to reduce the remaining mitigation?
    Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
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    tarmalentarmalen Member Posts: 1,020 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Guess I need to take a logic course. I was under the impression that the - resistance of con was a defensive stat and it reduced armor ignored by a mob.

    Go figure.
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    freehugs9freehugs9 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 201 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    asashiro wrote: »
    Is it that 24% is not the most resistance from mobs or that you cannot take it down to 0%?

    Neither! Actually, like I said above some mobs can self buff to be tougher, maybe that's what's happening here? You'll need to give me more details or a combat log.


    etherealj wrote: »
    How does plaguefire interact with stat based armor reduction? Do you calculate the %reduction in defense before determining the hard cap for arp to reduce the remaining mitigation?

    I've never personally tested plague fire, It's too expensive for me. However, effects like this are generally separate to ArP, just applying a % damage bonus.
    See Neverwinter math and mechanics HERE
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    etherealjetherealj Member Posts: 1,091 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    freehugs9 wrote: »
    I've never personally tested plague fire, It's too expensive for me. However, effects like this are generally separate to ArP, just applying a % damage bonus.

    Greater Plaguefire reads like it reduces the monster's defense stat by 45%.
    Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
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    freehugs9freehugs9 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 201 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    etherealj wrote: »
    Greater Plaguefire reads like it reduces the monster's defense stat by 45%.

    By all accounts, that's not what it does. Easy to test on the target dummies if you have it, they have no mitigation to reduce.
    See Neverwinter math and mechanics HERE
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    adinosoulwoodadinosoulwood Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 82
    edited June 2013
    I don't think con adds to armpen. At least it doesn't show on my Armor Penetration stat. If it is not adding the two stats (con and armor pen) then is that why you put the table? So we can do the math ourselves?
This discussion has been closed.