Was the weapon limit part of the reason Clerics and Druids became too powerful in 3rd ed.?
Not really, although it would depend on whether you were running 3.0 or 3.5 and it would also depend on which supplements you used. Clerics were overpowered mainly due to long-term buffs that would enable them to outpace the rest of the party. Druids in early 3rd edition enjoyed animal companions that were just as effective as the party fighter. Once you added supplements, a druid in wild shape could do almost anything...and at early levels too. There were also issues with poorly written skills like Diplomacy.
A cautious DM could nip this all in the bud if he or she knew about it and took the time to counter it...but it was definitely a limitation on the system.
Was the weapon limit part of the reason Clerics and Druids became too powerful in 3rd ed.?
Nah, the buff spells would make the classes godly if they had any prep time before battle. Cleric had something called the holy trinity. I believe the spells were divine favor, divine power and righteous might. and Druid you could make one of the most broken things. Was a kobold named Punpun. you pretty much end up with infinite stats due to temp stat buff spells and stat swapping between an animal companion.
Was the weapon limit part of the reason Clerics and Druids became too powerful in 3rd ed.?
Not really, that was simply because they were full casters with access to any spell they wanted with no limit on a number of spells learned, and many of the spells were very powerful. I'll spare you the tl;dr, but some of these buff spells had restrictions that meant they only worked on the cleric/druid, which meant the fighter got to sit on his hands while the CoDzilla turned herself into an avatar of war and stomped over the opposition.
But weapon choice really didn't enter into it. And by the way, in actual 4th edition, clerics can use a variety of weapons as well. It's the way it is in Neverwinter because of game limitations.
Rise of the Fell King - A Forgotten Realms campaign (work in progress) NWS-DS38FJ5R8 Part One: The Fell Cavern (looking for feedback!) NW-DTWX9RBQH Hopefully more to come!
It's gotten little love since BG II tbh. Flail of Ages FTW.
However scrap the Paladin, give me a dwarven fighter I can go Bwhahahaha with:
Personally, my idea of dwarf with a flail Amb is my great weapon fighter swinging a cow at enemies by a rope but then, I do look for the absolute hilarity in what I do.
Personally, my idea of dwarf with a flail Amb is my great weapon fighter swinging a cow at enemies by a rope but then, I do look for the absolute hilarity in what I do.
Cow flail imediatly makes me think of the rat flail from VG Cats
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
As for Clerics, the Wondrous Bazaar sells a "Scepter of Power" for around 14k AD. I'm sure it's still a ranged weapon with more or less the same attack animation (so not the bash-things-with-a-mace kind of scepter)
That would be correct. As I said it's a limitation based on the powers on system.
PnP Has a turn based attack system in which you can pick up a weapon and swing it to do damage as you can in any other form of D&D you are familiar with.
Since Neverwinter uses At-Will powers as basic attacks and uses specialized class features it just doesn't work well. The Devote Cleric is a ranged class just like the two current fighters are melee classes. The At Will Powers all call for divine energies to deal damage just as cleave involves swinging a sword.
It's more flexible in PnP but the system is limited and more or less it's because there's no basic attacks in Neverwinter. Switching to a bow on a fighter would actually break the game since you can't "Cleave" with a bow (well technically you can but you'd have to be swinging the bow as a melee weapon) and if a cleric was to equip a mace they'd still be calling upon a lance of faith or sacred flame to smite their enemies.
Too bad this isn't a Futuristic type setting. As a Cleric I could use a special weapon called a Healing Gun. Yep... a gun that loads bullets that heals their target. Japanese RPGs are that insane sometimes. Though the same bullets could kill undead pretty easily (too bad cure spells in Western type RPG games don't allow undead to be hurt by curative magic)...
*sings* "I like Gammera! He's so neat!!! He is full of turtle meat!!!"
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
too bad cure spells in Western type RPG games don't allow undead to be hurt by curative magic...
Used to be that way in D&D up to recently.
Yesterday I had an internet outage and found that Neverwinter Nights (1!) box sitting around so I loaded it up and messed a bit with it. (Bought it some time ago as a 5€ rerelease sale thingy but never gave it much play time for some reason).
It uses 3rd ed. rules and heals are damaging to undead there.
Might actually be interesting to give it some play time now with me playing NW. The differences are quite staggering xD Lord Nasher is the ruler of Neverwinter for one.
Was the weapon limit part of the reason Clerics and Druids became too powerful in 3rd ed.?
I've seen quite a few mentions that some classes were overly powerful and clerics and druids were among them (mostly to the detriment of classes like fighters).
If you have no limitations to the use of tools of the trade, then I guess having magics of any kind available vs. being limited to martial skills seems lopsided.
Just for that reason alone I'd expect much more restrictions in an mmoRPG than in PnP. Where a DM can rule in detail what is fine or not, in an mmoRPG you have to at least make an attempt to have a decent balance lest some classes rule and others get pushed to the side lines. Look at what had been going on for the poor GWFs and GFs for a long time.
If clerics could wield powerful weapons, hit like a truck, tank like a paladin and heal at the same time, you'd end up with parties full of various clerics and nothing else.
That said, I have entertained the idea of a guild based on religious type classes exclusively, once more are available. Think Inquisition or something ^_^ (and we'd base our strength on fear, ruthlessness and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope.. and no one will expect us xD )
I would join this guild. keep me posted
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Used to be that way in D&D up to recently.
Yesterday I had an internet outage and found that Neverwinter Nights (1!) box sitting around so I loaded it up and messed a bit with it. (Bought it some time ago as a 5 euro rerelease sale thingy but never gave it much play time for some reason).
It uses 3rd ed. rules and heals are damaging to undead there.
Might actually be interesting to give it some play time now with me playing NW. The differences are quite staggering xD Lord Nasher is the ruler of Neverwinter for one.
Harm spells also heal undead. You knew people were new clerics when the tried to harm the undead. Good grief that always made things interesting when it happened.
However Mass Heal made a lot of the bosses beyond trivial. It took most DM's a long time to realize why so many of their late game dungeons were being farmed. If memory serves Harm and Heal made so much content much easier than intended all the way until the Community Expansion Pack finally standardized the much needed nerf...but didn't actually correct the mass heal and harm. >.<
With all the people who spam the forums saying they want big metal balls placed on wooden sticks (Ugh I hate maces) you really think they're not listening?
People used to previous edition clerics log in ask where their weapon is and then either continue to moan about it nonstop or leave. There's no way they are ignoring that.
However what I want to know is why, considering third edition does exist, clerics or anybody else continue to use maces!? Or any other blundt weapons else for that matter. Five years of playing NWN and blunt weapons were always considered trash.
Most clerics in NWN used longswords in my experience. Heck I can't remember anybody besides NPC's using Maces at all on any of the dozens of servers I played on.
Why is this stigma so rampant here? I'd love a battle cleric but the last thing I ever want to see is a mace. I want my longsword when we get Battle Clerics.
Stay a while and listen........
My friend,the true power of holiness was always with a Chaotic/Neutral Human Cleric of Tempus,swinging an axe with a attitude and proficiency that would make most fighters green with envy.
Luckily for their enemies,it was common to find that very same Cleric fighting alongside themselves in the next days battle ensuring the battle was distributing pain evenly to both sides and agonizingly prolonging the conflict for the right to stay in Tempus' good books.
But seriously Flails make a real cool sound when swung and make a very nice mess when they connect to something metallic or squishy.
EDIT: Also to note is many unique maces/flails/morning stars had attributes/stats that could greatly benefit a cleric even in third edition.Where martial weapons mostly were higher attack and or damage.Also maces/flails and morningstars eat heavey armor for breakfast.
Was the weapon limit part of the reason Clerics and Druids became too powerful in 3rd ed.?
I've seen quite a few mentions that some classes were overly powerful and clerics and druids were among them (mostly to the detriment of classes like fighters).
If you have no limitations to the use of tools of the trade, then I guess having magics of any kind available vs. being limited to martial skills seems lopsided.
Just for that reason alone I'd expect much more restrictions in an mmoRPG than in PnP. Where a DM can rule in detail what is fine or not, in an mmoRPG you have to at least make an attempt to have a decent balance lest some classes rule and others get pushed to the side lines. Look at what had been going on for the poor GWFs and GFs for a long time.
If clerics could wield powerful weapons, hit like a truck, tank like a paladin and heal at the same time, you'd end up with parties full of various clerics and nothing else.
That said, I have entertained the idea of a guild based on religious type classes exclusively, once more are available. Think Inquisition or something ^_^ (and we'd base our strength on fear, ruthlessness and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope.. and no one will expect us xD )
I mostly only played clerics since 2nd edition.What a lot of players never realized was that clerics have always been able to mix it up with fighter types.
The trick has always been to choose your spells wisely focusing on buff/debuff/powers and rather than allocate heavily in any one stat,it was far better to roll with as even as possible in strength constitution and wisdom.16/16/16 could be buffed to great effect,then add the plus of awarded stat points....well you get the picture.Having a nice spread on stats also meant having some pretty good saving throws.
The thing about clerics was.the class could be built to excel in many things,but never more than one at a time.You could build a spell caster,a battler of undead,a hardened melee battle cleric or even a marksmen (got to love 3rd edition lol)
That would be correct. As I said it's a limitation based on the powers on system.
PnP Has a turn based attack system in which you can pick up a weapon and swing it to do damage as you can in any other form of D&D you are familiar with.
Since Neverwinter uses At-Will powers as basic attacks and uses specialized class features it just doesn't work well. The Devote Cleric is a ranged class just like the two current fighters are melee classes. The At Will Powers all call for divine energies to deal damage just as cleave involves swinging a sword.
It's more flexible in PnP but the system is limited and more or less it's because there's no basic attacks in Neverwinter. Switching to a bow on a fighter would actually break the game since you can't "Cleave" with a bow (well technically you can but you'd have to be swinging the bow as a melee weapon) and if a cleric was to equip a mace they'd still be calling upon a lance of faith or sacred flame to smite their enemies.
I understand. But there are two mechanics already in place that - from where I'm standing - seem to leave room for more weapon/combat variety in the future (perhaps by the way of Paragon specializations) with relatively little additional development or design changes:
1. The Clerics [Tab] exchanges the primary and secondary At-Will for something completely different.
2. Picking a Paragon specialization unlocks a Paragon-specific At-Will.
So we know At-Wills can be swapped or modified... at will, if you will. And the current class design already includes an At-Will that depends on your Paragon choice. That being the case, there really doesn't seem to be any reason there couldn't be separate At-Wills for ranged and melee attacks. Perhaps a Cleric Paragon that has a melee attack as its unlocked At-Will? Obviously it would have to be locked/"silenced" if you're not wielding a melee weapon. Or perhaps just automatic switching between At-Will effects and mechanics based on what kind of weapon you're wielding... kind of the way pressing Tab gives you completely different At-Wills?
Heres the reason, as presented in the old AD&D 2nd Edition...
"Reluctant to shed blood, clerics are limited to blunt, bludgeoning weapons unless allowed other weapons by their dogma/mythos. Being trained for battle as well as spiritual works, they may use any armor or shield."
The game is inspired by 4th edition, so that's pretty much moot.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
It'd be possible with some work but at that point it opens a nightmare of possible balancing issues.
Perhaps we'll see it in time but the balancing issues would be a nightmare. Part of the problem with third edition is that clerics could be built to do basically any role better than the class that was intended to have that role. Imagine cleric in Neverwinter were given a shield and their own guard meter.
It doesn't take much to realize a cleric with a Guard Meter could easily replace a Guardian Fighter as is.
While the control being done sucks I'd rather have this level of control than ultimately broken classes that you'll see in any third edition game. Nobody wins when certain classes are irrevocably better than another class. In third Edition Clerics were the all in one obnoxious class and monks around level 20 could have been renamed to "DemiGod."
It's always fun being strong but it really isn't good from a development perspective and is horrible for any MMO so at least for now the rules and the roles will be strict.
We don't use maces, or other blunt weapons anymore. Instead we use the Symbols of our Dieties and raw Divine Power. And we only wear chainmail now as well.
Right. I might add: We are no Neverwinter Clerics anymore, not to mention D&D Clerics - just ask us about "turning" or look at our spell range. We are just random MMO priest characters who are more restricted in weapon and armor choice than in even the worst Korean Grinder*.
*no intention to insult Korean gamers, it's just about some of the MMOs coming from there.
In case you find my grammar or spelling weird ---> native german speaker
So we know At-Wills can be swapped or modified... at will, if you will. And the current class design already includes an At-Will that depends on your Paragon choice. That being the case, there really doesn't seem to be any reason there couldn't be separate At-Wills for ranged and melee attacks. Perhaps a Cleric Paragon that has a melee attack as its unlocked At-Will? Obviously it would have to be locked/"silenced" if you're not wielding a melee weapon. Or perhaps just automatic switching between At-Will effects and mechanics based on what kind of weapon you're wielding... kind of the way pressing Tab gives you completely different At-Wills?
Just some ideas...
Off topic for this thread, but that would make an excellent way for Rangers to wield both dual weapons and a bow, with tab toggling between the two. The weapons of Rangers could be represented as a bundle of melee weapons and a bow that together would occupy the main hand slot.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
It's worth pointing out Clerics don't wear platemail in Fourth Edition. That's not some restriction Cryptic imposed.
I'm a bit rusty on the rules without pulling out my Player Handbook but platemail now requires something like 18 STR and a feat to wear.
Basically platemail was changed to be a "Martial" item (not really but 3 Ed Players should get the reference) so Clerics and some other classes, such as Rangers I believe, are now limited to using chainmail unless they specifcally build to upgrade into platemail.
Cryptic obviously isn't permitting players to upgrade like PnP but frankly the Platemail Cleric doesn't match up well with the Devote Cleric. Perhaps they'll allow players to upgrade at a point in time the Battle Cleric is added.
EDIT - Pulled out my PHB1:
Armor Proficiency (Plate)
Prerequisites: Str 15, Con 15, training with scale
armor
Benefit: You gain training with plate armor.
Armor Proficiency (Scale)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13, training with
chainmail
Benefit: You gain training with scale armor.
Clerics gain Armor Proficiency (Chainmail) for free. They would have to have 15 Str and 15 Con as well as spend two feats in order to wear Plate Armor. Icky!
So yeah...yell at Wizards if you want plate armor! That's not Cryptic's doing.
So yeah...yell at Wizards if you want plate armor! That's not Cryptic's doing.
About the only thing that's NOT crptics doing.
Fact is, Cryptic took away 90% of the ruleset of any D&D edition or any D&D based PC game. Lets have a look:
- in contrast to D&D and other D&D based games every character class is restricted to a single type of weapon & armor, not even downgrading is allowed.
- the powers have nothing to do with spells from D&D and other D&D based games
- the feats have no connection to the feats from D&D and other D&D based games
NW is nothing else, than a generic MMO with some D&D Lore and minor similarities like the choice of stats.
It's not that I don't like the game, I just find it ridiculous to claim it's "ruleset" is based upon D&D :rolleyes:
In case you find my grammar or spelling weird ---> native german speaker
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Ummm...
I think you should look into Fourth Edition D&D before you continue to make those claims thestoryteller01...
Powers have been modified to no longer use the D3-D100 rolls but Powers are very much in Fourth Edition D&D. They're obviously not in most other D&D Games because, well, there's only one other game based off Fourth Edition. -.-
First, thanks for the replies - especially for the useful ones.
Wow - no weapons for clerics? Weird. I am not saying it is right or wrong, just weird. My opinion is the clerics traditionally rely on their stout, devout, and unflappable belief in their respective deities to inspire their physical prowess, while healing and supporting as needed. At least that has been the historical role of clerics throughout RPG's, both pen and paper and digital. The current implementation seems to make the cleric more like a magic user. I want to swing a bludgeoning spiked chunk of metal in the name of my deity, not shoot disguised lightening bolts at enemies as I back away in order to avoid melee.
To put this into perspective,as this seems to be an evolution of design and rules changes brought about by the community, I played D&D in the 80's and most iterations of digital D&D since. I have somewhat of a handle on the evolution of rules changes over the decades, but this is shocking.
I am not whining, or chastising the new concepts and rules. To me, as I stated, this is shocking. No more maces, flails, and morning stars?! These were the staples of clerics RPG clerics for decades. I respect the design choice, as I must be in the minority.So . . .
What class is most like the old school cleric? I would like to sling a few spells, kneel to my favorite deity for some goodies, and hit monsters over the head when they get close. I might even want to shoot a few crossbow bolts!
Thanks for any useful input.
Try not to get too caught up in what real D&D is like. This game is about as far away from D&D as a D&D game could possibly be. Basically, they had 5 class. Three of them had to be melee (the two fighters and the rogue) and one of them had to be ranged (the wizard). At that point they decided the game needed a second ranged class more than a 4th melee so they made clerics a ranged class. Nevermind that in any real game you can switch weapon types to do ranged or melee (remember this is not really D&D even though the title says so). This is an incredibly simplistic game where everyone uses only 1 type of weapon and has roughly six skills that they use over and over again. It was designed to be played on a very simple controller rather than a keyboard with hotkeys like a real MMO.
I think you should look into Fourth Edition D&D before you continue to make those claims thestoryteller01...
Powers have been modified to no longer use the D3-D100 rolls but Powers are very much in Fourth Edition D&D. They're obviously not in most other D&D Games because, well, there's only one other game based off Fourth Edition. -.-
I happen to play a long-going pnp D&D campaign and we are about to transform our characters into 4th edition, so I might know a bit about it. Played the game since I got my first set set back in 1983, played every single PC game connected to the franchise and modded quite a bit (under the same nickname), thank you.
Neverwinter is the one D&D based game that has the very least connection to the rules framework of any pnp version, be it 3.5, 4.0 or whatever time will bring PERIOD.
In case you find my grammar or spelling weird ---> native german speaker
Try not to get too caught up in what real D&D is like. This game is about as far away from D&D as a D&D game could possibly be. Basically, they had 5 class. Three of them had to be melee (the two fighters and the rogue) and one of them had to be ranged (the wizard). At that point they decided the game needed a second ranged class more than a 4th melee so they made clerics a ranged class. Nevermind that in any real game you can switch weapon types to do ranged or melee (remember this is not really D&D even though the title says so). This is an incredibly simplistic game where everyone uses only 1 type of weapon and has roughly six skills that they use over and over again. It was designed to be played on a very simple controller rather than a keyboard with hotkeys like a real MMO.
At one time, D&D integrated class and race for demihumans, so that one was for example an Elf and that was all... not an Elven Cleric, Elven Magic-User, Elven Thief, Elven Fighter/MU, and so forth. D&D has had many forms, some of which are more simplistic than others.
However what I want to know is why, considering third edition does exist, clerics or anybody else continue to use maces!? Or any other blundt weapons else for that matter.
Why is this stigma so rampant here?
Well, for 3.5e, which is what I assume most people popularly know about DnD, there is the issue of DR, and all skeletal-type undead (a large chunk of undead species) had DR/blunt. So you'd want to carry one around or have someone spec in it in case you run into a monster/group of monsters with such damage resistance.
Additionally, maces (light and heavy) were considered "simple" weapons, while swords and such "martial" weapons, and clerics didn't come with the "martial weapons proficiency" at level 1.
NWN shined mostly in high-level content, not low-level, encouraged multiclassing (and had a number of prestige classes). With lots of feats to throw around, people would either take martial prof or do the classical fighter/cleric multiclass.
Or maybe it's just a "cool" factor, or availability of unique items in the game - swords tend to be the most abundant. At face value, in 3.5e a heavy mace and a sword only differ in damage type, and swords take an extra feat to use.
I happen to play a long-going pnp D&D campaign and we are about to transform our characters into 4th edition, so I might know a bit about it. Played the game since I got my first set set back in 1983, played every single PC game connected to the franchise and modded quite a bit (under the same nickname), thank you.
Well, it's a fact that NW Powers are based on 4e powers, sorry. Since you must already have the 4e PHB, maybe look it up?
I have been playing on and off - so far I like I things but . . . .
I have cleric. I need a mace, or a club, or a flail. I cannot locate a weapon to use. I searched merchants at the Costers Market but the vendor I found only purveys swords. This is getting pretty frustrating for me; either I am totally missing a place or a UI button to purchase something or maces, flails and such are that hard to come by.
So, how can I get a weapon? I have been using that beginning spell-thingey for ever and it is getting old. Thanks for any input.
There is no cleric class in NW; no classes at all, in fact.
There is cookie cutter pre made builds.
You don't have the option to build a character class the way you want to. You're stuck with devs vision of a build.
But NW is to D&D what "Abraham Lincoln - Vampire Hunter" was to the real life of the 16th president of the US. Entertaining but not a biopic.
That it may not be my ideal version of D&D or your ideal version of D&D, it doesn't change that it is a form of D&D.
Personally, I wasn't all that keen on 2nd Ed., and I thought 3rd Ed. was absolute garbage. I never did look into the pnp 4th Ed., so I can't offer any opinion on that. So, for me, 1st Ed. AD&D is still the best.
However, I know many like other versions of D&D, such as 3.5, despite how much I loathe it, but... everyone likes different things, so I don't disparage that difference in opinion.
I'm having fun with this game, despite it's simplicity, and seeing a much newer version of the Forgotten Realms is interesting, so it's D&D enough form me to enjoy, even though I know there is much more to the various pnp versions of the game, from my old role-playing days, when AD&D 1st Ed. was the new bit of shine on the game store shelf.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Well, for 3.5e, which is what I assume most people popularly know about DnD, there is the issue of DR, and all skeletal-type undead (a large chunk of undead species) had DR/blunt. So you'd want to carry one around or have someone spec in it in case you run into a monster/group of monsters with such damage resistance.
Additionally, maces (light and heavy) were considered "simple" weapons, while swords and such "martial" weapons, and clerics didn't come with the "martial weapons proficiency" at level 1.
NWN shined mostly in high-level content, not low-level, encouraged multiclassing (and had a number of prestige classes). With lots of feats to throw around, people would either take martial prof or do the classical fighter/cleric multiclass.
Did they end up upping the resistance to skeletons and other such undead in 3.5 from 3?
I actually never much got into 3.5 and have much more experience in Second and Third. While I make the claims of maces being useless it's based on the fact that the benefits against such a limited about of monsters was negligible at best.
It's one of the reasons I actually hate 3rd (and even Fourth) edition. After Second Edition the boundaries of many classes were removed but the unique effects of each class and weapons were also reduced. I guess too many people complained about hearing "Your weapon is ineffective" so slowly but surely those effects have been diminished little by little with each new edition.
I always hated maces and warhammers. I loath them with a passion...but the best thing about second edition is that it forces people to use those weapons which otherwise are far weaker in *most* instances.
Comments
Not really, although it would depend on whether you were running 3.0 or 3.5 and it would also depend on which supplements you used. Clerics were overpowered mainly due to long-term buffs that would enable them to outpace the rest of the party. Druids in early 3rd edition enjoyed animal companions that were just as effective as the party fighter. Once you added supplements, a druid in wild shape could do almost anything...and at early levels too. There were also issues with poorly written skills like Diplomacy.
A cautious DM could nip this all in the bud if he or she knew about it and took the time to counter it...but it was definitely a limitation on the system.
Nah, the buff spells would make the classes godly if they had any prep time before battle. Cleric had something called the holy trinity. I believe the spells were divine favor, divine power and righteous might. and Druid you could make one of the most broken things. Was a kobold named Punpun. you pretty much end up with infinite stats due to temp stat buff spells and stat swapping between an animal companion.
Not really, that was simply because they were full casters with access to any spell they wanted with no limit on a number of spells learned, and many of the spells were very powerful. I'll spare you the tl;dr, but some of these buff spells had restrictions that meant they only worked on the cleric/druid, which meant the fighter got to sit on his hands while the CoDzilla turned herself into an avatar of war and stomped over the opposition.
But weapon choice really didn't enter into it. And by the way, in actual 4th edition, clerics can use a variety of weapons as well. It's the way it is in Neverwinter because of game limitations.
Part One: The Fell Cavern (looking for feedback!) NW-DTWX9RBQH
Hopefully more to come!
Personally, my idea of dwarf with a flail Amb is my great weapon fighter swinging a cow at enemies by a rope but then, I do look for the absolute hilarity in what I do.
Cow flail imediatly makes me think of the rat flail from VG Cats
That would be correct. As I said it's a limitation based on the powers on system.
PnP Has a turn based attack system in which you can pick up a weapon and swing it to do damage as you can in any other form of D&D you are familiar with.
Since Neverwinter uses At-Will powers as basic attacks and uses specialized class features it just doesn't work well. The Devote Cleric is a ranged class just like the two current fighters are melee classes. The At Will Powers all call for divine energies to deal damage just as cleave involves swinging a sword.
It's more flexible in PnP but the system is limited and more or less it's because there's no basic attacks in Neverwinter. Switching to a bow on a fighter would actually break the game since you can't "Cleave" with a bow (well technically you can but you'd have to be swinging the bow as a melee weapon) and if a cleric was to equip a mace they'd still be calling upon a lance of faith or sacred flame to smite their enemies.
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
Used to be that way in D&D up to recently.
Yesterday I had an internet outage and found that Neverwinter Nights (1!) box sitting around so I loaded it up and messed a bit with it. (Bought it some time ago as a 5€ rerelease sale thingy but never gave it much play time for some reason).
It uses 3rd ed. rules and heals are damaging to undead there.
Might actually be interesting to give it some play time now with me playing NW. The differences are quite staggering xD Lord Nasher is the ruler of Neverwinter for one.
I would join this guild. keep me posted
Harm spells also heal undead. You knew people were new clerics when the tried to harm the undead. Good grief that always made things interesting when it happened.
However Mass Heal made a lot of the bosses beyond trivial. It took most DM's a long time to realize why so many of their late game dungeons were being farmed. If memory serves Harm and Heal made so much content much easier than intended all the way until the Community Expansion Pack finally standardized the much needed nerf...but didn't actually correct the mass heal and harm. >.<
Stay a while and listen........
My friend,the true power of holiness was always with a Chaotic/Neutral Human Cleric of Tempus,swinging an axe with a attitude and proficiency that would make most fighters green with envy.
Luckily for their enemies,it was common to find that very same Cleric fighting alongside themselves in the next days battle ensuring the battle was distributing pain evenly to both sides and agonizingly prolonging the conflict for the right to stay in Tempus' good books.
But seriously Flails make a real cool sound when swung and make a very nice mess when they connect to something metallic or squishy.
EDIT: Also to note is many unique maces/flails/morning stars had attributes/stats that could greatly benefit a cleric even in third edition.Where martial weapons mostly were higher attack and or damage.Also maces/flails and morningstars eat heavey armor for breakfast.
I mostly only played clerics since 2nd edition.What a lot of players never realized was that clerics have always been able to mix it up with fighter types.
The trick has always been to choose your spells wisely focusing on buff/debuff/powers and rather than allocate heavily in any one stat,it was far better to roll with as even as possible in strength constitution and wisdom.16/16/16 could be buffed to great effect,then add the plus of awarded stat points....well you get the picture.Having a nice spread on stats also meant having some pretty good saving throws.
The thing about clerics was.the class could be built to excel in many things,but never more than one at a time.You could build a spell caster,a battler of undead,a hardened melee battle cleric or even a marksmen (got to love 3rd edition lol)
I understand. But there are two mechanics already in place that - from where I'm standing - seem to leave room for more weapon/combat variety in the future (perhaps by the way of Paragon specializations) with relatively little additional development or design changes:
1. The Clerics [Tab] exchanges the primary and secondary At-Will for something completely different.
2. Picking a Paragon specialization unlocks a Paragon-specific At-Will.
So we know At-Wills can be swapped or modified... at will, if you will. And the current class design already includes an At-Will that depends on your Paragon choice. That being the case, there really doesn't seem to be any reason there couldn't be separate At-Wills for ranged and melee attacks. Perhaps a Cleric Paragon that has a melee attack as its unlocked At-Will? Obviously it would have to be locked/"silenced" if you're not wielding a melee weapon. Or perhaps just automatic switching between At-Will effects and mechanics based on what kind of weapon you're wielding... kind of the way pressing Tab gives you completely different At-Wills?
Just some ideas...
The game is inspired by 4th edition, so that's pretty much moot.
Perhaps we'll see it in time but the balancing issues would be a nightmare. Part of the problem with third edition is that clerics could be built to do basically any role better than the class that was intended to have that role. Imagine cleric in Neverwinter were given a shield and their own guard meter.
It doesn't take much to realize a cleric with a Guard Meter could easily replace a Guardian Fighter as is.
While the control being done sucks I'd rather have this level of control than ultimately broken classes that you'll see in any third edition game. Nobody wins when certain classes are irrevocably better than another class. In third Edition Clerics were the all in one obnoxious class and monks around level 20 could have been renamed to "DemiGod."
It's always fun being strong but it really isn't good from a development perspective and is horrible for any MMO so at least for now the rules and the roles will be strict.
Right. I might add:
We are no Neverwinter Clerics anymore, not to mention D&D Clerics - just ask us about "turning" or look at our spell range. We are just random MMO priest characters who are more restricted in weapon and armor choice than in even the worst Korean Grinder*.
*no intention to insult Korean gamers, it's just about some of the MMOs coming from there.
Off topic for this thread, but that would make an excellent way for Rangers to wield both dual weapons and a bow, with tab toggling between the two. The weapons of Rangers could be represented as a bundle of melee weapons and a bow that together would occupy the main hand slot.
I'm a bit rusty on the rules without pulling out my Player Handbook but platemail now requires something like 18 STR and a feat to wear.
Basically platemail was changed to be a "Martial" item (not really but 3 Ed Players should get the reference) so Clerics and some other classes, such as Rangers I believe, are now limited to using chainmail unless they specifcally build to upgrade into platemail.
Cryptic obviously isn't permitting players to upgrade like PnP but frankly the Platemail Cleric doesn't match up well with the Devote Cleric. Perhaps they'll allow players to upgrade at a point in time the Battle Cleric is added.
EDIT - Pulled out my PHB1:
Clerics gain Armor Proficiency (Chainmail) for free. They would have to have 15 Str and 15 Con as well as spend two feats in order to wear Plate Armor. Icky!
So yeah...yell at Wizards if you want plate armor! That's not Cryptic's doing.
Fact is, Cryptic took away 90% of the ruleset of any D&D edition or any D&D based PC game. Lets have a look:
- in contrast to D&D and other D&D based games every character class is restricted to a single type of weapon & armor, not even downgrading is allowed.
- the powers have nothing to do with spells from D&D and other D&D based games
- the feats have no connection to the feats from D&D and other D&D based games
NW is nothing else, than a generic MMO with some D&D Lore and minor similarities like the choice of stats.
It's not that I don't like the game, I just find it ridiculous to claim it's "ruleset" is based upon D&D :rolleyes:
I think you should look into Fourth Edition D&D before you continue to make those claims thestoryteller01...
Powers have been modified to no longer use the D3-D100 rolls but Powers are very much in Fourth Edition D&D. They're obviously not in most other D&D Games because, well, there's only one other game based off Fourth Edition. -.-
Try not to get too caught up in what real D&D is like. This game is about as far away from D&D as a D&D game could possibly be. Basically, they had 5 class. Three of them had to be melee (the two fighters and the rogue) and one of them had to be ranged (the wizard). At that point they decided the game needed a second ranged class more than a 4th melee so they made clerics a ranged class. Nevermind that in any real game you can switch weapon types to do ranged or melee (remember this is not really D&D even though the title says so). This is an incredibly simplistic game where everyone uses only 1 type of weapon and has roughly six skills that they use over and over again. It was designed to be played on a very simple controller rather than a keyboard with hotkeys like a real MMO.
'Based on' has always been a fast and loose descriptor. A good example is movies 'based on real events'.
I happen to play a long-going pnp D&D campaign and we are about to transform our characters into 4th edition, so I might know a bit about it. Played the game since I got my first set set back in 1983, played every single PC game connected to the franchise and modded quite a bit (under the same nickname), thank you.
Neverwinter is the one D&D based game that has the very least connection to the rules framework of any pnp version, be it 3.5, 4.0 or whatever time will bring PERIOD.
At one time, D&D integrated class and race for demihumans, so that one was for example an Elf and that was all... not an Elven Cleric, Elven Magic-User, Elven Thief, Elven Fighter/MU, and so forth. D&D has had many forms, some of which are more simplistic than others.
This is just another form.
Additionally, maces (light and heavy) were considered "simple" weapons, while swords and such "martial" weapons, and clerics didn't come with the "martial weapons proficiency" at level 1.
NWN shined mostly in high-level content, not low-level, encouraged multiclassing (and had a number of prestige classes). With lots of feats to throw around, people would either take martial prof or do the classical fighter/cleric multiclass.
Or maybe it's just a "cool" factor, or availability of unique items in the game - swords tend to be the most abundant. At face value, in 3.5e a heavy mace and a sword only differ in damage type, and swords take an extra feat to use.
Well, it's a fact that NW Powers are based on 4e powers, sorry. Since you must already have the 4e PHB, maybe look it up?
There is cookie cutter pre made builds.
You don't have the option to build a character class the way you want to. You're stuck with devs vision of a build.
That it may not be my ideal version of D&D or your ideal version of D&D, it doesn't change that it is a form of D&D.
Personally, I wasn't all that keen on 2nd Ed., and I thought 3rd Ed. was absolute garbage. I never did look into the pnp 4th Ed., so I can't offer any opinion on that. So, for me, 1st Ed. AD&D is still the best.
However, I know many like other versions of D&D, such as 3.5, despite how much I loathe it, but... everyone likes different things, so I don't disparage that difference in opinion.
I'm having fun with this game, despite it's simplicity, and seeing a much newer version of the Forgotten Realms is interesting, so it's D&D enough form me to enjoy, even though I know there is much more to the various pnp versions of the game, from my old role-playing days, when AD&D 1st Ed. was the new bit of shine on the game store shelf.
Did they end up upping the resistance to skeletons and other such undead in 3.5 from 3?
I actually never much got into 3.5 and have much more experience in Second and Third. While I make the claims of maces being useless it's based on the fact that the benefits against such a limited about of monsters was negligible at best.
It's one of the reasons I actually hate 3rd (and even Fourth) edition. After Second Edition the boundaries of many classes were removed but the unique effects of each class and weapons were also reduced. I guess too many people complained about hearing "Your weapon is ineffective" so slowly but surely those effects have been diminished little by little with each new edition.
I always hated maces and warhammers. I loath them with a passion...but the best thing about second edition is that it forces people to use those weapons which otherwise are far weaker in *most* instances.