Upon reading the comments, I have a suggestion, I have agreements and disagreements, so my 2 cents added here:
1. Easy is boring. Good long term players that recruit friends and family don't want to exploit your game they want to play. Shouldn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them off or bore them. Good raids should involve strategy and skill, with cooperation. Should be EPIC to earn epic rewards.
(note) No slap, but younger players don't understand hard core raiding. No WOW isn't hard core. 2 tanks isn't hard core 2 healers isn't hard core. Epic raid should be a perfect balance of everyone doing their part, having exceptional skills and timing and pay attention, then someone that has put in the time and is ready for it in need, gets an epic present....and your happy for them if this time wasn't your time, then so be it. Next time might be.
Dungeon and loot access should be difficult. BOP should be the case for extreme rare valuable gear always. What pisses someone off is working to that point and get ninja'd. Camping a dungeon and going through 50 times to get a BP only to see someone ninja, take YOURS and make 1 mil on AH. Needing AD is not NEED.
(note)If you need it for your alt, level and bring to the dungeon and roll. ONLY CW can loot cw gear etc.
2. What of the difficulty of not filling your class gear out?
Epic gear exchanges could resolve that. Get another head, it is worth X=epic coins, farm the dungeons and gather your class gear knowing you can exchange it at some rate for the piece you need. You still are dealing with BOP but that minimizes some of the difficulty, and your exchange rate can modify the speed gear can be filled.
3. Another aspect could be a combination of epic activity coins, like earn coins for epic dungeon participation plus luck on rolls to fill in your gear. Those with lots of participation helping and trying have the little edge. This could be an edge on rolls like a plus+ to a roll, or little extra for the epic exchange to use for gear.
Example, I have been to a dungeon 20 times trying to get the BP for my set. You eventually will roll a 67 on your first attempt at the dungeon, I decide before my roll to spend all my 20 epic coins, that adds 20 to my roll...i roll a 50 but my 50 + 20 beat you.
Anyway, food for thought
Divine
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rickfrankMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited June 2013
I think a step in the right direction would be transitioning from loot drops to token drops. the dungeons "supposedly" drop specific set pieces or have a chance to. why not have those dungeons that are designed for specific pieces drop tokens and gear purchsed with endgame set tokens can be set to bop.
delves chests still drop set loot and other bosses still sometimes drop random loot that isn't on their designed set list. i've seen t2 daggers drop in karrundax but thats supposedly a dreadvault drop i've seen a t2 helm drop in frozen heart and thats supposedly a spell plague drop. in these instances they would be boe, but for the final boss actually dropping it's primary loot (i think of primary loot as the loot listed under the dungeon finder as what you should find in that dungeon) have it be a token. it increases the chance people will get their loot which solves the problem of not being able to make a set effectively. it also discourages needing if you don't need because it's a token that is a bop item, which makes it what 1 gold 60 silver until/unless they come out with salvage.
this reduces the amount of boe loot for sale but still makes the items a possible drop and increases the chance of increasing sets. all this occurs while still allowing for boe ste pieces to be for sale, and with their increased rarity the prices will just rise to accomodate the changed nature of the loot system.
this is the first mmo i've played where endgame sets are boe, i honestly beleive all the complaints are based on the fact that the system began this way. If at release endgame sets were bop noone would think to complain because that is standard practice. changing to that practice now is going to tweak some noses but the nature of a "beta" is that you test things and see how they pan out. all loot being boe is a bit much.
my 2 cents.
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rickfrankMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
I know the solution, it's very simple: ALL END GAME SET PIECES AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE AT THE UNICORN/DRAKE SEALS VENDOR FOR VERY BIG AMOUNTS OF SEALS
Why: 1. Seals can't be bought for ZEN or AD, this means the gear can not be trivially purchased on the AH.
2. The gear is BoP, BUT you don't have to run endless of Dungeons to find that last piece of T2 armor, you'll afford it at the seals vendor after a number of runs. Idea = 400 Seal of the Drake for T2 Chest Armor.
Additional changes I would like to see along with this change: Salvage for AD is a great idea, and would work with this. Still keep rings, belts, necks and that kind of loot BoE. SOME equipment should also be Bound to Account. Another thing I would like in this game is Gear that levels up with your character, e.g. the equipment item is level 1 when you are, and level 2 when you are.
I think this is a great idea.
the problem i have with a 100 percent seal system is that you can ignore the more difficult dungeons of a specific gear and still reap the rewards of their set piece. it is why i recommend a token system
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phenrusssMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Account bound token drops totally solves this. Lets you trade it in for the gear you need, either for a piece to complete your set or for an alt so you can get them geared up the way you need so they can start running the content themselves. Running dungeons all the time and not getting that final piece you need is frustrating. Not being able to get gear for your alt is frustrating. Seeing someone simply drop $$$ to buy high level gear in the AH without ever doing a dungeon run is frustrating. Token drop removes all three problems.
First, Dungeon Delves Loot needs to be switched to BoP. Delves is meant to gear your own character/reward you for running a dungeon, not make you rich by selling that stuff on the AH. You can turn around and sell garbage for AD via salvage, but this is NOT meant as an AD farm, just incentive to run during delves.
Second, Instead of Tier set loot actually dropping, create an "Unforged" Currency Version of each Tier set (for Helm/Arms/Chest/Boots) (1 for T1 and 1 for T2) that drops in the specified dungeon runs off the specified bosses which you take to an NPC in town and he will "forge" it into one of the set items (respectively so Unforged Helm = Any T2 helm) YOU CHOOSE for YOUR CLASS. So all the group needs is for 1 item to drop applicable for ANY class since they could use to get a set piece of their choosing for their class. This allows more freedom in getting gear YOURSELF and not be AS frustrated cause YOUR set piece never drops.
Third, Switch the Loot mechanics to NEED= BoP. Greed = BoE. What this Also does is ensure that MOST boss (Tier) loot will actually be needed. Think about it, it would take a whole group having their specified T2 set item to have them all roll greed on the item (to make it BoE) meaning all the boss loot WOULD be BoP until TONS of people are geared... This keeps the alure of having those items while still allowing people to sell on the AH in the future. Most players, if the item dropped, atleast 1 person probably will NEED it making it BoP but eventually players will run the dungeons for the sake of greeding and thus selling it.
NOTE: This is ONLY for set pieces meaning you can still get rings/neck/weapons ETC from the AH via people greeding those as well... Arguably itll be the tier set that is harder and has more "nostalgia" to it. Since it will be hard to find the piece on the AH.
So lets see what this all does:
1) Reduced the end game epics hitting the economy by making delves gear BoP. Only boss loot will be possibly sellable.
2) Removes ninjas from taking peoples set items that DO drop when they do (making up for the fact that set pieces rarely drop)
3) Gives the ability to just get 1 drop that can be used to get your set item versus randomly getting a T1/T2 item you DONT want and posting that on the AH to sell.
4) Puts less end game gear to the economy since any player can use the drop to get their T2. (Ask yourself this, would you rather have a player that RAN the dungeon get the drop, or the drop sold on the AH to someone that didnt run it? so that the person that DID run it, could then buy that item from someone else?)
5)AH gear will still be available via the hardcore players who can farm end game content but this system re leaves ninja looters, frustration of getting gear by yourself, AND creates the rarity of end game gear that SHOULD be there...
OVERALL: Less AH gear available, more attainable in game gear while it STILL maintaining huge rarity. Delves rewards are diminished but the event STILL holds value to players looking to gear up, it WONT be of value for those looking to sell delve gear. Which is ONE of the many reasons this is an issue in the first place...
Alot of people keep posting and I think others who address the Foundary issue bring up good points about rewards as well, I hope eventually they make foundry end game dungeon delve runs a possibility.
I wanted to reply to my own post since it compiles what I have read in other threads about this into 1 singular post and solves the problems the DEVs are trying to solve.
First, Dungeon Delves Loot needs to be switched to BoP. Delves is meant to gear your own character/reward you for running a dungeon, not make you rich by selling that stuff on the AH. You can turn around and sell garbage for AD via salvage, but this is NOT meant as an AD farm, just incentive to run during delves.
Second, Instead of Tier set loot actually dropping, create an "Unforged" Currency Version of each Tier set (for Helm/Arms/Chest/Boots) (1 for T1 and 1 for T2) that drops in the specified dungeon runs off the specified bosses which you take to an NPC in town and he will "forge" it into one of the set items (respectively so Unforged Helm = Any T2 helm) YOU CHOOSE for YOUR CLASS. So all the group needs is for 1 item to drop applicable for ANY class since they could use to get a set piece of their choosing for their class. This allows more freedom in getting gear YOURSELF and not be AS frustrated cause YOUR set piece never drops.
Third, Switch the Loot mechanics to NEED= BoP. Greed = BoE. What this Also does is ensure that MOST boss (Tier) loot will actually be needed. Think about it, it would take a whole group having their specified T2 set item to have them all roll greed on the item (to make it BoE) meaning all the boss loot WOULD be BoP until TONS of people are geared... This keeps the alure of having those items while still allowing people to sell on the AH in the future. Most players, if the item dropped, atleast 1 person probably will NEED it making it BoP but eventually players will run the dungeons for the sake of greeding and thus selling it.
NOTE: This is ONLY for set pieces meaning you can still get rings/neck/weapons ETC from the AH via people greeding those as well... Arguably itll be the tier set that is harder and has more "nostalgia" to it. Since it will be hard to find the piece on the AH.
So lets see what this all does:
1) Reduced the end game epics hitting the economy by making delves gear BoP. Only boss loot will be possibly sellable.
2) Removes ninjas from taking peoples set items that DO drop when they do (making up for the fact that set pieces rarely drop)
3) Gives the ability to just get 1 drop that can be used to get your set item versus randomly getting a T1/T2 item you DONT want and posting that on the AH to sell.
4) Puts less end game gear to the economy since any player can use the drop to get their T2. (Ask yourself this, would you rather have a player that RAN the dungeon get the drop, or the drop sold on the AH to someone that didnt run it? so that the person that DID run it, could then buy that item from someone else?)
5)AH gear will still be available via the hardcore players who can farm end game content but this system re leaves ninja looters, frustration of getting gear by yourself, AND creates the rarity of end game gear that SHOULD be there...
OVERALL: Less AH gear available, more attainable in game gear while it STILL maintaining huge rarity. Delves rewards are diminished but the event STILL holds value to players looking to gear up, it WONT be of value for those looking to sell delve gear. Which is ONE of the many reasons this is an issue in the first place...
The thing people seem to ignore is the fact that as long as someone can roll need on something someone will. It is the dark side of human nature that MMOs bring out.
As long as there is a N/G/P system for loot this will be a problem, no mater the restrictions you put on it.
That is why a lot of old school raiding guilds use a different system for loot. (dkp, only 1 ug, ect.)
It is also why even if need = bop/ greed = boe were to be used it would solve nothing and be just as bad as making most end game gear bop. Which if I recall correctly a vast majority did not want.
A token system is a good start, as is finding a use for seals. But as long as any form of N/G/P option is used, it will just be a minor Band-Aid fix. If it doesn't make the current system even worse.
A bit ago, we got a good deal of feedback that the current system of end game items being BoE can create a scenario where the best gear sets can be trivially purchased on the Auction House. This could potentially have the effect of cheapening the endgame experience of dungeon delves. We listened, took a look and agreed it wasn't unfolding as intended.
The issue according the Cryptic is that because high end gear is purchasable on the auction house it cheapens the end game experience of dungeon delves. This has nothing to do with ninja looting, greed verses need, etc which is what many of the feedback posts have been about.
If high end items can be purchased with Astral Diamond, Zen, Gold, bartered, etc then yes it will absolutely cheapen the accomplishment of running the dungeon yourself and getting the gear. By making it bind of pickup with no other way of obtaining other than doing the dungeon yourself then the only way to get these items is for you to do the dungeon delve.
With the current reward system, changing everything to BoP would make it prohibitively more difficult to complete your gear sets by running dungeons.
Loot drops, in their current state, can be exceptionally random, and the proposed changes would make that feel worse.
Getting the best slottable items for Companions that are a different class than your character would be extremely difficult.
If you can not acquire high end gear through any other means then doing the dungeons yourself it will drastically increase the difficulty of those characters who do not already have the best gear prior to the change. Also it will be vastly more difficulty to complete gear sets, find that one item you were searching for, etc if you can not buy or barter for the item.
I see gearing your companion as a subset of the issues listed above and not really necessary to point out the added difficulty.
In my opinion every decision should be focused on, "does this make the game more fun to play"? You will never make everyone happy so lets stick to the majority.
Most people want cool stuff to make them feel powerful but if everyone has the item then you are just one in the crowd.
If you balance game content for people who have the best gear possible then players who choose NOT to buy the gear off the auction house, etc will be slaughtered/fail when they try to do it.
Players will always take the path of least resistance. If I can get the best gear in the game by walking into walls in PvP matches to gain Astral Diamonds that can be used to buy the best gear then they will do it, not because they enjoy PvP but because it is the easiest way to the rewards they seek.
I believe that regardless of which way Cryptic decides to take the issue of high end gear bind on pickup or bind on equip both are doomed to a slow death. The only way Cryptic can ensure that players keep chasing the gear carrot is to keep releasing better gear which further divides the "haves" from the "have nots". They will balance game content such that the elite will complain that it is too easy and the casuals will complain that it is too hard.
The only way to combat item stat inflation is by periodically releasing "expansions" that devalue all gear with easily acquired superior gear and start the gear race over.
If "end game" is all about acquiring gear then Neverwinter is not any different then playing World of Warcraft, Rift or any other MMORPG out there. I encourage Cryptic to focus on the problem not the symptoms of the issue, because if players are having fun then gear is just a cosmetic issue.
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jdurantt0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited June 2013
Thank you so much PWE for listening to us. I give you guys major props. Not many companies do what you do, listening so intently to their players. Thank you so much and if you continue operating like this, You'll have me as a loyal player for a very long time. You're doing a great job keep it up!
EDIT: Yes this fix would be ideally for curbing ninja looters, but that's also a large portion (from my experiences) of why some people buy gear to begin with; I mean seriously, drop rates are already low, you're competing with 4 others for gear, and to top it off if your piece DOES drop there is a high chance someone will just ninja it.
On Topic: All gear past T1 should be BoP with the exception of minor T2's (I.E. Non-Set pieces like necklaces/belts).
Not the same class as the dropped item? Then do not display a NEED button, SIMPLE AS HECK.
Now to address the massive amount of gear in the market now. Well not much you can do until it's gone really, not without pissing off a few people (who may have been using the many exploits the game has seen since the start of open beta, or not).
Making items BoP is fine from the patch on, but if this id done, selling an item of 1.6 gold is just stupid, I know because as a cleric, we already experienced this with boots that were bound on pickup. That said a reclamation vendor would be a good idea to trade in the gear for a REASONABLE amount of AD. And by reasonable I mean don't insult us with a couple thousand, it had best be in the hundreds of thousands. This then would make it possible for those items that are not class specific, like rings and belts, be purchased, a market is not a market without things to be bought or bartered. And we all have seen the price of rings, especially the Ancient Slavemaster's Ring of Control.
In short, make us work for our gear, so we can explore the content. And further, perhaps add some T1 Epics to level 60 Foundry as well, so more people will be inclined to play foundry for more than the gear grind. And when I mean add Epics to foundry, I mean quests equal to or longer than 60 minutes to complete. That might just end all these 15 grind quests, tho.. maybe not after all we do have to complete 4 quests per day for 4000 AD? LOLZ Not even worth the time it takes to do them. (Re-think that Cryptic, make it worth our while.)
That, or those are my thoughts. Peace everyone.
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IGN: DrDoom CLS: Heretic SVR: Atlantis IND ID:1000165G030200060007250S15fb1f
Another vote for the "all pointless column", as long as it is sell/scavenge/diamond/seal/npc -able in any way all some one will "need" it. And if there is no option to give it value or trade it for something above, then it becomes worthless and so is running dungeons (*) Binding it just increases the value of all the exploited gear out there, so the exploiters win again.
I've got the feeling Cryptic don't want a 'gear for all' system. (Greed based nature of the loot/game so far, and it makes 5x the gear so it is even more trivial) so they won't go for that
Dungeon seal/token: Balanced properly a good idea, and everyone gets a bit of something. Or we get balance so you have to grind till your eyes fall out. (look at the current number of runs needed for seals. And the gear isn't that great). Could be worse than everyone needs 1 item and you grind till you are lucky.
Generic/Unforged Item: In the end, everyone "needs" the same "generic hat" or whatever. Better than waiting for the <class> hat, and everyone complains equally. They say everyone complaining equally is true balance. This produces about the same amount of gear/run too
Combining the above 2 are probably the best idea. Everyone rolls at the same generic item, this can be traded or auctioned or tokened; the loosers get a few dungeon tokens, so the RNG challenged don't get nothing all the time
(*) Expect for those few who want to get every item by them-self for them self
I can't comment on how to resolve end-game loot distribution, but skirmish and landscape loot should just be allocated randomly without prompt. None of that loot is of lasting importance, and the prompts just get in the way of the action.
Thank god you guys didnt decide to go ahead and KILL YOUR OWN GAME by making everything BoP.
Please, find a better solution.
ADD random EPIC world drops
ADD BETTER EPICS with a way low drop rate
Make the stuff that drops actually useful for us who play your game, BoE or not I will not continue to play for drops that are only smh compared to current T2.
I don't even want anymore t2 armor I don't see how it can be better than swash set for my TR..
What incentive do I have to do any dungeons? Since ive got my FULL CN setup (a month ago) I have maybe did ONE or TWO dungeons. There is no incentive..
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jihancritiasMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Personally I do like the idea of Need = Bound to Character even if need remained class specific. This would encourage more people to use greed even in the late game while properly punishing players for needing when they don't truly need the items.
But, please please please implement the salvage system as you had it right now!
I really hate throwing away my outdated epic gear for a pittance of gold. On top of that some of the items are truly worth less than they should be on the auction house. The salvage system as it is could establish a base line AD value for many of the lesser desired items.
EDIT - On the note of seals: They truly become worthless after you start getting good gear. Even the low level ones aren't worth using since you outlevel the gear that you would purchase faster than you obtain seals.
Seals need to get some alternate use. Perhaps as item upgrades or a means to purchase rare profession resources such as Dragon Eggs?
If they choose to keep the salvage vendor in, I hope they give a means to exchange ad for gold. The cost is crazy for kits.
I really wish people would quit pushing for BoP. There is a clear majority of people that do not want it that way. A few loud voices pushing the devs towards something counter productive is detrimental to the game.
Arguments I have heard are "things are supposed to be hard". Why? Because you say so?:p I enjoy a challenge, but a lot of people prefer casual and lightweight. There should be room for both in the game. If you like hardcore, do the T2 Dungeons, with no exploits and shortcuts. They are challenging and a bunch of fun if, like me, you like that sort of thing.
Some people like to "pay for gear". Wonderful! I am so glad that those people exist because they have no problem sinking money into the game which makes more funds available for expansions and for other development. Bring the whales to NW!!!:D
Step back from your definitions based on other past games and think about THIS game for a minute.
Take leveling. You can level through story line, through professions, through Skirmishes and Dungeons, through Foundry, and through PVP. Many people enjoy some of those things, but not all. So what about the guy that really loves crafting and the main story line, but not Dungeons or PVP? He shouldn't be able to have the good gear? He shouldn't be able to work hard, stockpile his AD and buy the gear he wants?
The days of UO and EQ are over. Not everyone is "hardcore" and wants to grind. We are so fortunate that NW caters to both crowds and has a little bit of something for everyone. Trying to restrict things only restricts the pool of players. That is the last thing we want at the beginning of what I hope will be a long and prosperous game.
The real issue has been the short cuts, cheats, or exploits. Fix those so that everyone has to do the WHOLE Dungeon AS INTENDED and the glut of end game gear will go away.
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keobiaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
The BoP change will go live on the 20th, smoke and mirrors. You put the preview shard up for the balance patch under the guise of wanting feedback, you made no changes based on any feedback and then just released it a week later.
The BoP change will go live on the 20th, smoke and mirrors. You put the preview shard up for the balance patch under the guise of wanting feedback, you made no changes based on any feedback and then just released it a week later.
Have you been on the Preview Shard? They took out most of the BoP changes and are re-evaluating. They have also communicated that in the first post in this thread.
I'm having a hard time to understand that discussion (45 years old, never played a mmo like this before...)
It reminds me a bit of the band playing on the titanic while the ship is sinking.
With that (non existent) background I would suggest the following:
- throw away the whole need/greed/pass system for the boss loot
- offer a box at the end of the dungeon to each player individually
- box contains 4 Items
- player can pick only one
- all items can be sold in the AH
Items in the box (just as example):
- One set item for your class (dungeon defines which ones are possible e.g. offhand/neck) with a 70% chance of blue, 30% purple and a guarantee for a purple one after 10 runs -> counter (just to take care of the unlucky ones)
- One set item for a different class (pet, or selling in AH for good price -> see price difference GF / CW -> gives an equal chance to each class to make AD in the AH) - same chance as above
- One item for crafting (99% blue, 1% purpel, no guarantie that you get the purple one ever)
- Seals (vendors should offer sets too...)
Thereby: no twist in the group, more important: you dont educate people to be a f.... a..hole
Stuff can still be sold/ exchanged in the AH as today, keeping the market alive
Because prices will sink that way in the long term towards 0, one could implement a floor by being able to sell set items to a vender for e.g. 5-10k AD.
One more thing: stop the DD and offer it permanently. Its hard enough organizing my day already, I have no need to play a game which tells me when I have to...
at all. All it does is curb (not prevent) Ninjaing
Indirectly it does.
Say I want to Need on an item I actually intend to wear. (Thus keeping it out of circulation as it'll bind to me.)
But BR McNinja comes along intending to sell the loot and rolls Need & wins.
Well dang, now I have to either rerun or buy it from AH.
Buying it would just encourage BR McNinja to continue doing what he does while running more dungeons simply increases the chance that moar gear will go into circulation.
If epic gear isn't an epic achievement reward maybe we should call it T2 laid back casual lightweight gear.
Do you consider "getting lucky with the RNG" to be an "epic achievement"?
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leftsideoftheyarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 25Arc User
its a good job I, and others didnt just spend a load of cash buying up the AH then, based on your previous announcement. engage your collective brains before you knee jerk react and tell the world please. thank you.
If I didnt know any better, conspiracy theorists might think this was staged to drive zen sales to convert to AD to buy BoE items. but no, im sure that wasnt the case.
That would be called speculation. Im glad you ate it
My only objection to BoP gear was the fact that I don't want to run dungeons as the only way to earn gear. You see, I'm one of those odd people who don't like group/raiding content. And I really, really hate dungeons!
So up till now, I have spent all my time farming AD so that I can buy the gear I need from players who actually like running dungeons. This has given me a goal to strive for and has kept me happily playing.
If you make seals the new way to buy gear, then I'm perfectly happy with that. In fact, I'm more than happy with that. Because at the moment, I find I'm just running skirmishes over and over to farm AD (this gets very boring after a while).
So if seals are the new 'must have', then I will start farming seals instead of AD. I will actually be rewarded for exploring and killing monsters. I will actually be rewarded for playing Foundry missions. Wonderful! Absolutely wonderful!
At the moment, I actually discard 'Blacklake Coins' and other currency that you can exchange for seals, because I have no need for seals. But if I can buy the gear I need from seal vendors instead of the auction house, then I'm more than fine with that (even if that gear is BoP).
So all I'm really asking for is an alternative way for solo PvE players like me to earn gear. Please don't try to force me to run dungeons, I'm very stubborn and I won't be forced to do anything . All you'll do is drive me away.
I'd like to add my support to the ideas being discussed above. Let us bring meaningful progression to all activities that can be practiced at endgame while we are addressing the issue at hand.
This is the best setup for thwarting ninja-looting. To further enforce that, I would prefer to do away with salvaging. That way, there is absolutely no reason to ninja-NEED.
This is a game. Don't force players how to play their game. If someone doesn't like to do dungeon runs, but would like to have good gears for PvP and other PvE content, let them have the option to buy gears off Auction House.
PLease, The very best set of equipment for your character should always be bind on pickup. To have some 1 be able to jump on the game for 1 hour and spend $50 to be as good as some 1 who played the game for 100+ hours is an absolute atrocity.
That being said- all the tier 1 belt and rings and stuff that are bind on pickup now-- that is garbage... No one needs garbage bound to their account.
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willsommersMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 103
edited June 2013
To have some 1 be able to jump on the game for 1 hour and spend $50 to be as good as some 1
Yes because repetitive RNG lottery = good. Only in the warped minds of many MMO players. Without that guy spending $50 you wouldn't have a game. Period. Of course other people being able to play the game too reduces your epeen. Got it.
This is the best setup for thwarting ninja-looting. To further enforce that, I would prefer to do away with salvaging. That way, there is absolutely no reason to ninja-NEED.
This is a game. Don't force players how to play their game. If someone doesn't like to do dungeon runs, but would like to have good gears for PvP and other PvE content, let them have the option to buy gears off Auction House.
PLease, The very best set of equipment for your character should always be bind on pickup. To have some 1 be able to jump on the game for 1 hour and spend $50 to be as good as some 1 who played the game for 100+ hours is an absolute atrocity.
I understand, this is human nature. Why should someone else get the bigger toy (or same toy) than me without working as hard as I did for my toy, just because he is rich?
Step back, take a breather. This is a freaking game. If you think you are "working" hard for 100+ hours for the toy in a GAME, you are doing it wrong. If you had fun doing it, then you HAD FUN. Why worry about how others get their toy? Why don't just assume they too, worked hard and spent 100+ hours "working" for their toy? How does it bother you? He is not stealing or robbing you of your toy.
The important areas are covered with one exception, the players that ***** because they cant watch their own lane. That sadly is a personal issue they will never get over in MMO's and should be ignored in all respects, these are the folks that worry how others get items, regardless of the how and why, exploits excluded for this argument.
The fixes:
Need: BOP- salvageable, Greed: BOE-salvageable, looks fine to me. To be truthful all gear needs to wear out, even the epic gear.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
EDIT: Yes this fix would be ideally for curbing ninja looters, but that's also a large portion (from my experiences) of why some people buy gear to begin with; I mean seriously, drop rates are already low, you're competing with 4 others for gear, and to top it off if your piece DOES drop there is a high chance someone will just ninja it.
Currently the only way around that is forming/joining successful guild just so you can even play the end game content without fear someone is just good to spam need every time loot drops. This would help curb that and make it more viable for someone to run a dungeon outside of the DD event.
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On Topic: All gear past T1 should be BoP with the exception of minor T2's (I.E. Non-Set pieces like necklaces/belts).
I find this so funny that everyone who comments on this IS neglecting chest rewards. If the dungeon delve chest rewards are BOP it will still have the same effect or problem listed as the response. NO roll is going to fix that. BOP if implemented will kill the game. How do you solve chest rewards? Who cares about boss loot drops if the chest rewards are where a huge majority of "good" sellable loot comes from?
Comments
1. Easy is boring. Good long term players that recruit friends and family don't want to exploit your game they want to play. Shouldn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them off or bore them. Good raids should involve strategy and skill, with cooperation. Should be EPIC to earn epic rewards.
(note) No slap, but younger players don't understand hard core raiding. No WOW isn't hard core. 2 tanks isn't hard core 2 healers isn't hard core. Epic raid should be a perfect balance of everyone doing their part, having exceptional skills and timing and pay attention, then someone that has put in the time and is ready for it in need, gets an epic present....and your happy for them if this time wasn't your time, then so be it. Next time might be.
Dungeon and loot access should be difficult. BOP should be the case for extreme rare valuable gear always. What pisses someone off is working to that point and get ninja'd. Camping a dungeon and going through 50 times to get a BP only to see someone ninja, take YOURS and make 1 mil on AH. Needing AD is not NEED.
(note)If you need it for your alt, level and bring to the dungeon and roll. ONLY CW can loot cw gear etc.
2. What of the difficulty of not filling your class gear out?
Epic gear exchanges could resolve that. Get another head, it is worth X=epic coins, farm the dungeons and gather your class gear knowing you can exchange it at some rate for the piece you need. You still are dealing with BOP but that minimizes some of the difficulty, and your exchange rate can modify the speed gear can be filled.
3. Another aspect could be a combination of epic activity coins, like earn coins for epic dungeon participation plus luck on rolls to fill in your gear. Those with lots of participation helping and trying have the little edge. This could be an edge on rolls like a plus+ to a roll, or little extra for the epic exchange to use for gear.
Example, I have been to a dungeon 20 times trying to get the BP for my set. You eventually will roll a 67 on your first attempt at the dungeon, I decide before my roll to spend all my 20 epic coins, that adds 20 to my roll...i roll a 50 but my 50 + 20 beat you.
Anyway, food for thought
Divine
delves chests still drop set loot and other bosses still sometimes drop random loot that isn't on their designed set list. i've seen t2 daggers drop in karrundax but thats supposedly a dreadvault drop i've seen a t2 helm drop in frozen heart and thats supposedly a spell plague drop. in these instances they would be boe, but for the final boss actually dropping it's primary loot (i think of primary loot as the loot listed under the dungeon finder as what you should find in that dungeon) have it be a token. it increases the chance people will get their loot which solves the problem of not being able to make a set effectively. it also discourages needing if you don't need because it's a token that is a bop item, which makes it what 1 gold 60 silver until/unless they come out with salvage.
this reduces the amount of boe loot for sale but still makes the items a possible drop and increases the chance of increasing sets. all this occurs while still allowing for boe ste pieces to be for sale, and with their increased rarity the prices will just rise to accomodate the changed nature of the loot system.
this is the first mmo i've played where endgame sets are boe, i honestly beleive all the complaints are based on the fact that the system began this way. If at release endgame sets were bop noone would think to complain because that is standard practice. changing to that practice now is going to tweak some noses but the nature of a "beta" is that you test things and see how they pan out. all loot being boe is a bit much.
my 2 cents.
the problem i have with a 100 percent seal system is that you can ignore the more difficult dungeons of a specific gear and still reap the rewards of their set piece. it is why i recommend a token system
Alot of people keep posting and I think others who address the Foundary issue bring up good points about rewards as well, I hope eventually they make foundry end game dungeon delve runs a possibility.
I wanted to reply to my own post since it compiles what I have read in other threads about this into 1 singular post and solves the problems the DEVs are trying to solve.
This would work +1
As long as there is a N/G/P system for loot this will be a problem, no mater the restrictions you put on it.
That is why a lot of old school raiding guilds use a different system for loot. (dkp, only 1 ug, ect.)
It is also why even if need = bop/ greed = boe were to be used it would solve nothing and be just as bad as making most end game gear bop. Which if I recall correctly a vast majority did not want.
A token system is a good start, as is finding a use for seals. But as long as any form of N/G/P option is used, it will just be a minor Band-Aid fix. If it doesn't make the current system even worse.
The issue according the Cryptic is that because high end gear is purchasable on the auction house it cheapens the end game experience of dungeon delves. This has nothing to do with ninja looting, greed verses need, etc which is what many of the feedback posts have been about.
If high end items can be purchased with Astral Diamond, Zen, Gold, bartered, etc then yes it will absolutely cheapen the accomplishment of running the dungeon yourself and getting the gear. By making it bind of pickup with no other way of obtaining other than doing the dungeon yourself then the only way to get these items is for you to do the dungeon delve.
If you can not acquire high end gear through any other means then doing the dungeons yourself it will drastically increase the difficulty of those characters who do not already have the best gear prior to the change. Also it will be vastly more difficulty to complete gear sets, find that one item you were searching for, etc if you can not buy or barter for the item.
I see gearing your companion as a subset of the issues listed above and not really necessary to point out the added difficulty.
In my opinion every decision should be focused on, "does this make the game more fun to play"? You will never make everyone happy so lets stick to the majority.
Most people want cool stuff to make them feel powerful but if everyone has the item then you are just one in the crowd.
If you balance game content for people who have the best gear possible then players who choose NOT to buy the gear off the auction house, etc will be slaughtered/fail when they try to do it.
Players will always take the path of least resistance. If I can get the best gear in the game by walking into walls in PvP matches to gain Astral Diamonds that can be used to buy the best gear then they will do it, not because they enjoy PvP but because it is the easiest way to the rewards they seek.
I believe that regardless of which way Cryptic decides to take the issue of high end gear bind on pickup or bind on equip both are doomed to a slow death. The only way Cryptic can ensure that players keep chasing the gear carrot is to keep releasing better gear which further divides the "haves" from the "have nots". They will balance game content such that the elite will complain that it is too easy and the casuals will complain that it is too hard.
The only way to combat item stat inflation is by periodically releasing "expansions" that devalue all gear with easily acquired superior gear and start the gear race over.
If "end game" is all about acquiring gear then Neverwinter is not any different then playing World of Warcraft, Rift or any other MMORPG out there. I encourage Cryptic to focus on the problem not the symptoms of the issue, because if players are having fun then gear is just a cosmetic issue.
While I agree, the REAL solution is as follows.
EPIC (Purple Drops irregardless of Tx):
if(lootGearClass == playerClass) {
open.lootNeedGreedPromt(NEED, GREED, PASS);
}else if(lootGearClass != playerClass) {
open.lootNeedGreedPromt(NULL, GREED, PASS);
}
Not the same class as the dropped item? Then do not display a NEED button, SIMPLE AS HECK.
Now to address the massive amount of gear in the market now. Well not much you can do until it's gone really, not without pissing off a few people (who may have been using the many exploits the game has seen since the start of open beta, or not).
Making items BoP is fine from the patch on, but if this id done, selling an item of 1.6 gold is just stupid, I know because as a cleric, we already experienced this with boots that were bound on pickup. That said a reclamation vendor would be a good idea to trade in the gear for a REASONABLE amount of AD. And by reasonable I mean don't insult us with a couple thousand, it had best be in the hundreds of thousands. This then would make it possible for those items that are not class specific, like rings and belts, be purchased, a market is not a market without things to be bought or bartered. And we all have seen the price of rings, especially the Ancient Slavemaster's Ring of Control.
In short, make us work for our gear, so we can explore the content. And further, perhaps add some T1 Epics to level 60 Foundry as well, so more people will be inclined to play foundry for more than the gear grind. And when I mean add Epics to foundry, I mean quests equal to or longer than 60 minutes to complete. That might just end all these 15 grind quests, tho.. maybe not after all we do have to complete 4 quests per day for 4000 AD? LOLZ Not even worth the time it takes to do them. (Re-think that Cryptic, make it worth our while.)
That, or those are my thoughts. Peace everyone.
IGN: DrDoom
CLS: Heretic
SVR: Atlantis
IND ID:1000165G030200060007250S15fb1f
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I've got the feeling Cryptic don't want a 'gear for all' system. (Greed based nature of the loot/game so far, and it makes 5x the gear so it is even more trivial) so they won't go for that
Dungeon seal/token: Balanced properly a good idea, and everyone gets a bit of something. Or we get balance so you have to grind till your eyes fall out. (look at the current number of runs needed for seals. And the gear isn't that great). Could be worse than everyone needs 1 item and you grind till you are lucky.
Generic/Unforged Item: In the end, everyone "needs" the same "generic hat" or whatever. Better than waiting for the <class> hat, and everyone complains equally. They say everyone complaining equally is true balance. This produces about the same amount of gear/run too
Combining the above 2 are probably the best idea. Everyone rolls at the same generic item, this can be traded or auctioned or tokened; the loosers get a few dungeon tokens, so the RNG challenged don't get nothing all the time
(*) Expect for those few who want to get every item by them-self for them self
Please, find a better solution.
ADD random EPIC world drops
ADD BETTER EPICS with a way low drop rate
Make the stuff that drops actually useful for us who play your game, BoE or not I will not continue to play for drops that are only smh compared to current T2.
I don't even want anymore t2 armor I don't see how it can be better than swash set for my TR..
What incentive do I have to do any dungeons? Since ive got my FULL CN setup (a month ago) I have maybe did ONE or TWO dungeons. There is no incentive..
If they choose to keep the salvage vendor in, I hope they give a means to exchange ad for gold. The cost is crazy for kits.
Arguments I have heard are "things are supposed to be hard". Why? Because you say so?:p I enjoy a challenge, but a lot of people prefer casual and lightweight. There should be room for both in the game. If you like hardcore, do the T2 Dungeons, with no exploits and shortcuts. They are challenging and a bunch of fun if, like me, you like that sort of thing.
Some people like to "pay for gear". Wonderful! I am so glad that those people exist because they have no problem sinking money into the game which makes more funds available for expansions and for other development. Bring the whales to NW!!!:D
Step back from your definitions based on other past games and think about THIS game for a minute.
Take leveling. You can level through story line, through professions, through Skirmishes and Dungeons, through Foundry, and through PVP. Many people enjoy some of those things, but not all. So what about the guy that really loves crafting and the main story line, but not Dungeons or PVP? He shouldn't be able to have the good gear? He shouldn't be able to work hard, stockpile his AD and buy the gear he wants?
The days of UO and EQ are over. Not everyone is "hardcore" and wants to grind. We are so fortunate that NW caters to both crowds and has a little bit of something for everyone. Trying to restrict things only restricts the pool of players. That is the last thing we want at the beginning of what I hope will be a long and prosperous game.
The real issue has been the short cuts, cheats, or exploits. Fix those so that everyone has to do the WHOLE Dungeon AS INTENDED and the glut of end game gear will go away.
Have you been on the Preview Shard? They took out most of the BoP changes and are re-evaluating. They have also communicated that in the first post in this thread.
It reminds me a bit of the band playing on the titanic while the ship is sinking.
With that (non existent) background I would suggest the following:
- throw away the whole need/greed/pass system for the boss loot
- offer a box at the end of the dungeon to each player individually
- box contains 4 Items
- player can pick only one
- all items can be sold in the AH
Items in the box (just as example):
- One set item for your class (dungeon defines which ones are possible e.g. offhand/neck) with a 70% chance of blue, 30% purple and a guarantee for a purple one after 10 runs -> counter (just to take care of the unlucky ones)
- One set item for a different class (pet, or selling in AH for good price -> see price difference GF / CW -> gives an equal chance to each class to make AD in the AH) - same chance as above
- One item for crafting (99% blue, 1% purpel, no guarantie that you get the purple one ever)
- Seals (vendors should offer sets too...)
Thereby: no twist in the group, more important: you dont educate people to be a f.... a..hole
Stuff can still be sold/ exchanged in the AH as today, keeping the market alive
Because prices will sink that way in the long term towards 0, one could implement a floor by being able to sell set items to a vender for e.g. 5-10k AD.
One more thing: stop the DD and offer it permanently. Its hard enough organizing my day already, I have no need to play a game which tells me when I have to...
Indirectly it does.
Say I want to Need on an item I actually intend to wear. (Thus keeping it out of circulation as it'll bind to me.)
But BR McNinja comes along intending to sell the loot and rolls Need & wins.
Well dang, now I have to either rerun or buy it from AH.
Buying it would just encourage BR McNinja to continue doing what he does while running more dungeons simply increases the chance that moar gear will go into circulation.
Do you consider "getting lucky with the RNG" to be an "epic achievement"?
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
That would be called speculation. Im glad you ate it
I'd like to add my support to the ideas being discussed above. Let us bring meaningful progression to all activities that can be practiced at endgame while we are addressing the issue at hand.
This is the best setup for thwarting ninja-looting. To further enforce that, I would prefer to do away with salvaging. That way, there is absolutely no reason to ninja-NEED.
This is a game. Don't force players how to play their game. If someone doesn't like to do dungeon runs, but would like to have good gears for PvP and other PvE content, let them have the option to buy gears off Auction House.
That being said- all the tier 1 belt and rings and stuff that are bind on pickup now-- that is garbage... No one needs garbage bound to their account.
Yes because repetitive RNG lottery = good. Only in the warped minds of many MMO players. Without that guy spending $50 you wouldn't have a game. Period. Of course other people being able to play the game too reduces your epeen. Got it.
This x 1000
I understand, this is human nature. Why should someone else get the bigger toy (or same toy) than me without working as hard as I did for my toy, just because he is rich?
Step back, take a breather. This is a freaking game. If you think you are "working" hard for 100+ hours for the toy in a GAME, you are doing it wrong. If you had fun doing it, then you HAD FUN. Why worry about how others get their toy? Why don't just assume they too, worked hard and spent 100+ hours "working" for their toy? How does it bother you? He is not stealing or robbing you of your toy.
It is all in the mind. Relax.
The fixes:
Need: BOP- salvageable, Greed: BOE-salvageable, looks fine to me. To be truthful all gear needs to wear out, even the epic gear.
I find this so funny that everyone who comments on this IS neglecting chest rewards. If the dungeon delve chest rewards are BOP it will still have the same effect or problem listed as the response. NO roll is going to fix that. BOP if implemented will kill the game. How do you solve chest rewards? Who cares about boss loot drops if the chest rewards are where a huge majority of "good" sellable loot comes from?