This is an MMO. When technical measures fail, as they have here, there is no way to enforce good behavior except through "naming and shaming".
Statements of fact, such as the accused name, should not be censored. Obviously, allowing arbitrary accusations should not be allowed, but this looks pretty well supported.
I am sorry, but you are remembering the past with some rosy classes there. I played EQ2 from near the first day it was released and continued playing for several years. I greatly enjoyed that game, but it had its share of bugs at release, and it still had bugs the last time I went back a couple of years ago. This idea that older games somehow games released fairly polished, unlike now, is simply unsupportable. In fact, games have been releasing smoother as times go on, largely due to a more staged release because of said "soft releases." Games have always released with bugs that they would fix later. This is especially true since developers have long known that Beta will never catch all bugs and exploits because Beta testers, themselves, often withhold reporting such bugs and exploits because they want to exploit them and don't want them fixed.
I don't remember a specific trading bug in EQ2 at release, but there were certainly exploits that they had to fix, just like every game in existence (or has existed) Furthermore, I know games I have played in the past have certainly had to deal with trading bugs, and while they have fixed them, and the developers always warned you to only trade with people you can trust. This is certainly not some new phenomenon.
This is an MMO. When technical measures fail, as they have here, there is no way to enforce good behavior except through "naming and shaming".
Statements of fact, such as the accused name, should not be censored. Obviously, allowing arbitrary accusations should not be allowed, but this looks pretty well supported.
I agree with the basic principle you are saying, but the problem is that, as you point out, "This is an MMO." It is not only filled with people who are willing to scam, but it is hardly unusual for one guild or group of friends to take a disliking to another or to a specific person and hardly unusual that said guild or group could put forth a concerted effort to name and shame specifically to harass someone. All it takes is someone to create a post saying someone did something, then a few more people to pipe up and support what was said, and you can easily create the appearance of corroboration when the accused did nothing.
Thus, forums typically prohibit naming and shaming to prevent this. They institute reporting features and procedures, and that should be sufficient in most cases.
Yes i agree, but they seemed to be more on top of exploits and such from my experience. EQ2 was a great game and had its share of bugs/exploits but they got them patched quick smart in the 6 years i played it. I just wish cryptic would take notice of things that are so simple like this and rectify them before the release
Why is this even possible these days after all of these years of MMOs?
Other games have set it up so that once one person clicks "accept" it locks things in. If the other person does anything other than click "accept" the trade is cancelled and everyone keeps their original items/money. It's really that simple.
Why reinvent the wheel?
I was about to write the same thing. Any new MMOs these days, such as Neverwinter, have years of cumulative experience to fall back on. Common issues that took place when other games were in their toddler years, and solutions that have been created since. All it takes for the developers is to do their homework, and I'm negatively surprised every time I find proof that some just weren't attentive enough. The same mistakes should not be repeated over and over again.
The only thing they need to do to secure these person-to-person transactions is to REMOVE the ability to REMOVE items from the active trade window. What you put in the trade window needs to be locked into the trade window unless the trade is cancelled and a new trade window is opened again.
If you goof up or put the wrong thing(s) in, just cancel and start the entire trade again. Take away the ability alter the trade on the fly and you will solve this problem immediately! I would be willing to give someone the chance to restart the trade because of a mistake rather than keep it as is and risk getting scammed, however they are doing it.
What needs changing is very simple - if you have approved a trade, and the other party makes any changes, your approval is revoked and you need to reapprove the "new deal" . That's all.
you all talk about how this "issue" was fixed in other games.. why no one talks about how this is a feature/option in some games?
ex. EVE online.. some people do that: mess with others, cheat, steal, infiltrate, sabotage.. maybe he is role-playing a scumbag/thief? don't you think you are ruining the game for him by asking for this to be patched? seriously, how much did you lose?
don't really see a problem.. just be more careful.
why would one trade an expensive/hard to get item and not sell it in the auction house?
if it looks to good to be true, just don't trade.
better ask the developers for tools to get back at that person
like, the game should remember your last trade, compare the items based on value, if the difference is too high, you might have been scammed, so the person who got the less valuable item has 5 minutes to tell on the other person to a guard, the guards find the other person and take the item back if one has been frisked by the guards 5 times he get's arrested and put into jail for 15 min and so on.. )
it's more work, but definitely it’s worth it, more than patching an non issue
This has been an issue since UO and yes a system if any change is made everything needs to be reaccepted fixed it.
I had someone try and scam me tonight by selling Ancient rings in Zone and then putting minors in the trade window. But as an Old UO player the slow count and only accepting after they did and having moused over the item caught them out. Shamed them in chat got my item and they immediatly tried it on someone else.
Quick fix: Remove the ability to trade. Problem solved.
Its pretty much summoned up in two points
1. Either there are a lot of idiots in this world who never learn or heard about trade scams.
2. There is a redundant feature, that should no longer exist. AH...works perfectly fine. Need gold for your pots/kits...grind it out yourself. Need a particular item or you aquired an item of another class...either camp it (for what you need) or trade for what you need (when you aquired another class item).
Case point, argument wins that trade should not exist between individuals, since there are two other options available (grind, camp for gold/armor) or the AH (to trade items for AD, so you can then go back to the AH and buy what you need). Asking for trade, is just asking to get ripped off, and if you are trying to avoid the 10% cost cut of AD then you deserve losing to a scam trade for being so stupid...pay the tax, avoid the loss (or grind out gold for pots kits..since slightly out leveled zones still drop gear to trade straight to vendor).
I don't understand why PWE did not implement a very simple feature I know in nearly all MMO : if the other party CHANGE the content of what they are offering, your acceptance is revoked and you need to re-accept the new trade.
THIS 101 MMO coding frankly.
To the guy above about eve : eve is a totaly different type of game which do not use the same logic. You can't compare that with a game where there is no open PVP for example.
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cwylloggiaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited June 2013
Fine for Eve, but not sure this game is aimed at the same player group as that.
In WoW it was an issue and they fixed it the way many have mentioned in this thread; shame cryptic didn't learn from that and begin with the safer trade approach...
you all talk about how this "issue" was fixed in other games.. why no one talks about how this is a feature/option in some games?
ex. EVE online.. some people do that: mess with others, cheat, steal, infiltrate, sabotage.. maybe he is role-playing a scumbag/thief? don't you think you are ruining the game for him by asking for this to be patched? seriously, how much did you lose?
don't really see a problem.. just be more careful.
why would one trade an expensive/hard to get item and not sell it in the auction house?
if it looks to good to be true, just don't trade.
better ask the developers for tools to get back at that person
like, the game should remember your last trade, compare the items based on value, if the difference is too high, you might have been scammed, so the person who got the less valuable item has 5 minutes to tell on the other person to a guard, the guards find the other person and take the item back if one has been frisked by the guards 5 times he get's arrested and put into jail for 15 min and so on.. )
it's more work, but definitely it’s worth it, more than patching an non issue
It's not a role-playing only server. Even it it was, you're not trading face to face, and able to see what's actually happening. Role-playing someone scamming another player, and allowing that, would be the dumbest thing in this game. I would actually leave this game if that happened.
If I spent $10 for some reason on a ward, and I was trading someone, and they pulled this, they are stealing my real money. That goes beyond the game. Cryptic needs to get real and start returning items. It's their bad system that's allowing this.
Cryptic need to start banning brainless biomass like OP who knows that he will get fooled 90% chance and still goes to trade... TRADE THROUGH AH U USELESS BIOMASS.
Carnage TR Dragon shard - retired? hell yea it's retired along with Nevewinter
Cryptic need to start banning brainless biomass like OP who knows that he will get fooled 90% chance and still goes to trade... TRADE THROUGH AH U USELESS BIOMASS.
Biomass lol..
Sadly the best way to get coal wards is trough normal trade using keys as leverage. But am sure this will get addressed, ill be happy with a second window like runescape trade, with items to be traded showed regular text, i dont know how would it be possible with different languages in game tho. But am hopeful.
If the same guy is ripping people off, using zone chat to alert people will help solve the issue, or force a rename. Add him to your friends list with a comment to what he did, so regardless of him changing name, you can cuss him out every single time.
Nobody on the server will ever want to have anything to do with pathetic <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like that.
People have to accept friend requests, if he plans on ripping people off I seriously doubt he will be accepting friend requests.
you all talk about how this "issue" was fixed in other games.. why no one talks about how this is a feature/option in some games?
ex. EVE online.. some people do that: mess with others, cheat, steal, infiltrate, sabotage.. maybe he is role-playing a scumbag/thief? don't you think you are ruining the game for him by asking for this to be patched? seriously, how much did you lose?
{snip}
I'm pretty sure most publishers are glad EvE is there to sop up the dregs of the gaming world so they don't turn up in other MMOs. CCP only allow it, since they basically can get away with providing no support under the banner of "roleplay", and people who get their $70 dollar monocles stolen will most likely spend money to replace their loss.
Bug Powder Dust: Chapter 1, 15 mins of Cleric friendly hack and slash, with a nod to Pratchett and G Naylor:- NW-DKHPBAVBO
a 5 second delay after declining would solve this problem, without such a delay this problem will keep going on and on and on as players use this trick in just about every game around
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited July 2013
I am truly surprise that such a thing is even allowed in game. If I open a trade and place an item, the other person place their item. I hit accept, the moment the other player REMOVE/move an item, the accept option is negated. This mean that player can't hit accept after removing and item and get the item for free.
Better yet, if that is too hard to code, the moment the person remove an item after 1 party hits accept, it cancel the trade.
I am truly surprise that such a thing is even allowed in game. If I open a trade and place an item, the other person place their item. I hit accept, the moment the other player REMOVE/move an item, the accept option is negated. This mean that player can't hit accept after removing and item and get the item for free.
Better yet, if that is too hard to code, the moment the person remove an item after 1 party hits accept, it cancel the trade.
I agree. Further, there should be a popup advising if one party's trade window doesn't have anything in it.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
This is a weird thread. The EVE developers not only say this type of behavior is ok but it is encouraged as a "Meta game" within their game. If the EVE developers say this is ok then it must be ok in ALL games with trading. Really, do you expect Cryptic devs to go through lines and lines of chat code to see who screwed who when the easy thing to do is simply state to the community..."Be careful out there". Grin.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
Cryptic need to start banning brainless biomass like OP who knows that he will get fooled 90% chance and still goes to trade... TRADE THROUGH AH U USELESS BIOMASS.
You must be one of the thieves....
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
Comments
This is an MMO. When technical measures fail, as they have here, there is no way to enforce good behavior except through "naming and shaming".
Statements of fact, such as the accused name, should not be censored. Obviously, allowing arbitrary accusations should not be allowed, but this looks pretty well supported.
Foundry name: Vuelherring (with an extra 'R', matey)
"Bring out yer Dead" NW-DAI945C2G #humor #story #solo
he probably transfered items to an alt and deleted his account
I don't remember a specific trading bug in EQ2 at release, but there were certainly exploits that they had to fix, just like every game in existence (or has existed) Furthermore, I know games I have played in the past have certainly had to deal with trading bugs, and while they have fixed them, and the developers always warned you to only trade with people you can trust. This is certainly not some new phenomenon.
I agree with the basic principle you are saying, but the problem is that, as you point out, "This is an MMO." It is not only filled with people who are willing to scam, but it is hardly unusual for one guild or group of friends to take a disliking to another or to a specific person and hardly unusual that said guild or group could put forth a concerted effort to name and shame specifically to harass someone. All it takes is someone to create a post saying someone did something, then a few more people to pipe up and support what was said, and you can easily create the appearance of corroboration when the accused did nothing.
Thus, forums typically prohibit naming and shaming to prevent this. They institute reporting features and procedures, and that should be sufficient in most cases.
I was about to write the same thing. Any new MMOs these days, such as Neverwinter, have years of cumulative experience to fall back on. Common issues that took place when other games were in their toddler years, and solutions that have been created since. All it takes for the developers is to do their homework, and I'm negatively surprised every time I find proof that some just weren't attentive enough. The same mistakes should not be repeated over and over again.
The only thing they need to do to secure these person-to-person transactions is to REMOVE the ability to REMOVE items from the active trade window. What you put in the trade window needs to be locked into the trade window unless the trade is cancelled and a new trade window is opened again.
If you goof up or put the wrong thing(s) in, just cancel and start the entire trade again. Take away the ability alter the trade on the fly and you will solve this problem immediately! I would be willing to give someone the chance to restart the trade because of a mistake rather than keep it as is and risk getting scammed, however they are doing it.
Simple, effective, C'mon PWE......DO IT!
So they basically said that they can't refund trade theft. They won't tell you what happened to the guy, either. Pretty useless, all around.
What needs changing is very simple - if you have approved a trade, and the other party makes any changes, your approval is revoked and you need to reapprove the "new deal" . That's all.
ex. EVE online.. some people do that: mess with others, cheat, steal, infiltrate, sabotage.. maybe he is role-playing a scumbag/thief? don't you think you are ruining the game for him by asking for this to be patched? seriously, how much did you lose?
don't really see a problem.. just be more careful.
why would one trade an expensive/hard to get item and not sell it in the auction house?
if it looks to good to be true, just don't trade.
better ask the developers for tools to get back at that person
like, the game should remember your last trade, compare the items based on value, if the difference is too high, you might have been scammed, so the person who got the less valuable item has 5 minutes to tell on the other person to a guard, the guards find the other person and take the item back
it's more work, but definitely it’s worth it, more than patching an non issue
I had someone try and scam me tonight by selling Ancient rings in Zone and then putting minors in the trade window. But as an Old UO player the slow count and only accepting after they did and having moused over the item caught them out. Shamed them in chat got my item and they immediatly tried it on someone else.
Its pretty much summoned up in two points
1. Either there are a lot of idiots in this world who never learn or heard about trade scams.
2. There is a redundant feature, that should no longer exist. AH...works perfectly fine. Need gold for your pots/kits...grind it out yourself. Need a particular item or you aquired an item of another class...either camp it (for what you need) or trade for what you need (when you aquired another class item).
Case point, argument wins that trade should not exist between individuals, since there are two other options available (grind, camp for gold/armor) or the AH (to trade items for AD, so you can then go back to the AH and buy what you need). Asking for trade, is just asking to get ripped off, and if you are trying to avoid the 10% cost cut of AD then you deserve losing to a scam trade for being so stupid...pay the tax, avoid the loss (or grind out gold for pots kits..since slightly out leveled zones still drop gear to trade straight to vendor).
THIS 101 MMO coding frankly.
To the guy above about eve : eve is a totaly different type of game which do not use the same logic. You can't compare that with a game where there is no open PVP for example.
In WoW it was an issue and they fixed it the way many have mentioned in this thread; shame cryptic didn't learn from that and begin with the safer trade approach...
It's not a role-playing only server. Even it it was, you're not trading face to face, and able to see what's actually happening. Role-playing someone scamming another player, and allowing that, would be the dumbest thing in this game. I would actually leave this game if that happened.
If I spent $10 for some reason on a ward, and I was trading someone, and they pulled this, they are stealing my real money. That goes beyond the game. Cryptic needs to get real and start returning items. It's their bad system that's allowing this.
That will never, never happen.
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
Biomass lol..
Sadly the best way to get coal wards is trough normal trade using keys as leverage. But am sure this will get addressed, ill be happy with a second window like runescape trade, with items to be traded showed regular text, i dont know how would it be possible with different languages in game tho. But am hopeful.
People have to accept friend requests, if he plans on ripping people off I seriously doubt he will be accepting friend requests.
I'm pretty sure most publishers are glad EvE is there to sop up the dregs of the gaming world so they don't turn up in other MMOs. CCP only allow it, since they basically can get away with providing no support under the banner of "roleplay", and people who get their $70 dollar monocles stolen will most likely spend money to replace their loss.
Better yet, if that is too hard to code, the moment the person remove an item after 1 party hits accept, it cancel the trade.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
I agree. Further, there should be a popup advising if one party's trade window doesn't have anything in it.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
You must be one of the thieves....
Never traded outside Ah and never will. Scam is in humans blood so **** all of them
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -