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Guardian Fighters Too Strong in PvP

jellichojellicho Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 104
edited June 2013 in PvE Discussion
Think for a moment all the advantages they have in PvP:

Naturally tanky and can block most attacks with ease.

Can stack HP and Tenebrous Enchants causing their DPS to soar.

Can chain stun any opponent with multiple knockdowns and stuns.

Most of you say Rogues are overpowered, but rogues are incredibly squishy, susceptible to all CC and fewer CC options than any other class.

Wizards overpowered in PvP? Again tanky and with Tenebrous most GFs can out DPS any other class.

GFs are actually the best PvP class as they can DPS and have incredible survivability.
Post edited by jellicho on
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    masu84masu84 Member Posts: 134 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    jellicho wrote: »
    Think for a moment all the advantages they have in PvP:
    Well... you played first time PvP with your lvl30 char?!
    jellicho wrote: »
    Naturally tanky and can block most attacks with ease.
    Each other class is able to dodge most attacks easily, the tank can be kited by CWs easily. Its all about breaking the guard and then the tank is dead.
    jellicho wrote: »
    Can stack HP and Tenebrous Enchants causing their DPS to soar.
    Each class is able to do that. A tank got a slow attack. At a maximum of 15% necrotic damage by tenebrous enchantment and at a maximum of 30k Hitpoints this results in 4500 necrotic Bonus damage. Lets look what a TR is getting: 7 Tenebrous enchants instead of 5 = 21%, something around 20k Hitpoints, very fast attack speed. 4200 Bonus damage on each of the very fast attacks. Well a CW got many ranged attacks per second and is able to reach the same bonus as TR. So whats the problem with tanks? Hm? If you compare the 5 classes fully equipped with greater tenebrous and +maximum Hitpoints enchantments, the tank is still the worst damagedealer in PvP.
    jellicho wrote: »
    Can chain stun any opponent with multiple knockdowns and stuns.
    Well, the GF got 2(!!!) knockdown skills which are usefull in PvP and a daily. The tanks damage is very low. Even the encounters are not that powerful. I got 12k gs, 5200power, 2000 Armor penetration(ignoring 20% armor), 1500 crit(=20% crit chance at all). My encounter damage:

    lunging strike:
    normal: 3000-4000 damage
    crit: 5500-7500

    Bull charge
    normal 4000-5000 damage
    crit: 7500-9000 damage

    Frontline surge:
    normal 3000-4000 damage
    crit: 5500-7500 damage


    Daily (indo strength)
    normal: 3000 damage per hit, 2 hits -> 6000 damage at all
    crit: 5500 damage per hit. 11000 damage if both hits were crit. strikes.

    Well the crit chance of 20% is the main problem. Most other classes got a much higher burst damage. The tank is very strong in 1on1 but if the enemy (especially CWs) are dodging correctly, the tank has NO CHANCE. It is all about dodging attacks and the tank CANT DOGDE anything. The tank is able to block some attacks in FRONT of him, but he is walking slowly while blocking.
    jellicho wrote: »
    Most of you say Rogues are overpowered, but rogues are incredibly squishy, susceptible to all CC and fewer CC options than any other class.
    OMG!

    Dazing strike? Smokebomb? Just run to a pylon in PvP (stealthed) see most enemies standing close together. Smokebomb in middle, dazing strike and lashing blade = KILL for most classes. dazing strike and lashing blade are able to deal more than 30k damage(both skills on one enemy) ... even on tanks. And because of the smokebomb, they are dazed.
    Another option: Shadow strike! Dazing target, refilling stealth bar, not removing stealth...


    well TR got no CC skills... oh wait... :X
    jellicho wrote: »
    Wizards overpowered in PvP? Again tanky and with Tenebrous most GFs can out DPS any other class.
    Dodge attacks, use CC skills and the tank has no chance. But if you wanna compare a Tank with poerfect gear, full Tenebrous and maximum damage with a CW with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear, no Tenebrous, ... you are right. A perfectly equipped tank will kill a CW with 4000gs easily. Well each class is able to kill people with bad equipment.
    jellicho wrote: »
    GFs are actually the best PvP class as they can DPS and have incredible survivability.
    Funny, im GF and im dying most of the time to CWs and TR while hiding behind my shield.

    Well all classes got the ability to dodge incoming attacks, but not the tank. If you are not able to use dodge correctly, its your fault. Dont blame the GF for your stupidness.


    And all in all: Tenebrous Enchantments are stupid and to strong. They should remove this stupid enchantment which is able to make everything to DD!
    No leaver penality in PvP!

    And here is the reason:
    ghostravyn wrote: »
    If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
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    ganjaman1ganjaman1 Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    jellicho wrote: »
    Think for a moment all the advantages they have in PvP:

    Naturally tanky and can block most attacks with ease.

    Can stack HP and Tenebrous Enchants causing their DPS to soar.

    Can chain stun any opponent with multiple knockdowns and stuns.

    Most of you say Rogues are overpowered, but rogues are incredibly squishy, susceptible to all CC and fewer CC options than any other class.

    Wizards overpowered in PvP? Again tanky and with Tenebrous most GFs can out DPS any other class.

    GFs are actually the best PvP class as they can DPS and have incredible survivability.

    See the problem right now is not with any of the classes / builds in particular ( well maybe the perma stealth rogues but that's another story ) , the problem right now is that the tenebrous enchants can be stacked and procced at the same time which is indeed gamebreaking . I wonder when will PWE / Cryptic will make tenebs weapon enchantment and thus put the end of this endless discussion , who knows . Untill then let's say that every class with a specific build can be OP compared to some other class stacking tenebs and end this .
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    rapticorrapticor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,078 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Not everyone has Tenebrous enchantments...

    And I don't know about most GFs but my shield block gets shredded pretty easily by TRs and CWs at which point I'm pretty defenseless. And that TR smokebomb is just ridiculous in PvP.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited June 2013
    As a DC I can agree the chain stun is a royal pain in the rear end...

    However something that is important to note when fighting a GF is that guard only works (at at least completely) from the front. If you can split their focus so their back exposed to at least one team member then they should go down a lot easier. ;)
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    ganjaman1ganjaman1 Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    rapticor wrote: »
    Not everyone has Tenebrous enchantments...

    And I don't know about most GFs but my shield block gets shredded pretty easily by TRs and CWs at which point I'm pretty defenseless. And that TR smokebomb is just ridiculous in PvP.

    Don't try to play a wizard's game , make the wizard play your game instead as a GF . If they catch you on the defensive , you're pretty much dead - offense = best strat vs wizards but since it's a team game you'll rarely 1v1 a wizard without getting stomped as you overextend into his /her so .. whatever lol ./
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    satorusenpaisatorusenpai Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 167 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    jellicho wrote: »

    Naturally tanky and can block most attacks with ease.
    Since the rest was commented on, I would like to point out the tanky GF thing does not work well in PvP, what you're complaining about is the offense GF, not like it matters since even a tank gf is was easily 2 shotted by a TR.
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    huckasexhuckasex Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 145 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    .... since even a tank gf is was easily 2 shotted by a TR.

    exactly, "was"
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    arrywilarrywil Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    What I've never understood here is that people complain about GF being OP ect ect. actually people say this about nearly every class that isn't theirs. As masu said its usually down to their own stupidness, why go into a 1 vs 1 with a disadvantage, only take the fights if you know you have the upper hand at the start, dont expect to win a head on 1 vs 1 against a tanking class that basically can out endure you due to the natural defense.
    Domination also isn't meant to be about 1 vs 1's a decent wizard who can control me or a few people working together can kill me with relative ease the GF really isn't a magical super class that everyone wants to believe it is, the shield doesn't last two seconds either I barely use it unless its to block a shocking execution or an ice knife.
    Sons of Schlarb
    Thaddeus Talbot - GF - Dragon
    Aysta Tarley - TR - Dragon
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    wholyhandgrenadewholyhandgrenade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    jellicho wrote: »
    Think for a moment all the advantages they have in PvP:

    Naturally tanky and can block most attacks with ease.

    Can stack HP and Tenebrous Enchants causing their DPS to soar.

    Can chain stun any opponent with multiple knockdowns and stuns.

    Most of you say Rogues are overpowered, but rogues are incredibly squishy, susceptible to all CC and fewer CC options than any other class.

    Wizards overpowered in PvP? Again tanky and with Tenebrous most GFs can out DPS any other class.

    GFs are actually the best PvP class as they can DPS and have incredible survivability.

    I play cleric, every other class through the cleric's eyes is OP by a long ways.
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    eldelphiaeldelphia Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I'm struggling with the neverending knockbacks and knockdowns. And a seemingly infinite stamina. Feels like the balance is out somewhere or someone has found a glitch. I don't find anything else about GF too bad but put two into a PvP match and have them work well together and you spend your entire life on your backside.

    I think CC in general in PvP is a mess. it's what's causing half the issues people moan about. It should not stack in the way that it does. You should not be CC'd so long that someone can take you down (without their daily) before you can move.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited June 2013
    I honestly would love to see some additional forms of CC reduction added to the game.

    Right now it is extremely "Get CC'ed and piled" rinse and repeat.
    Kind of reminds me of old westerns where the person who draws first wins and the team that sustains the most is the team with the most CC. Some CC reduction could certainly improve the situation a bit all around.
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    yasha00yasha00 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 479 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Of course GF are the strongest class in pvp, especially domination. They are very similar to the lancer in Tera, except in NW you can even move while blocking (lancer was the strongest pvp class in Tera when I played).

    As for getting around the block, it actually blocks in quite a wide arc, 1vs1 its nigh impossible to get around the block of a decently played GF unless you are a rogue and stealth or use the teleport skill (forget its name atm).

    But it matters little at level cap anyway since the pvp at that point is wanting in so many ways.
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    terrorshardterrorshard Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Everything with tenebrous is op.
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    perfectindigoperfectindigo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    GF has a high learning curve to learn to fight. If you approach a GF from the front and burn your rotation, all you do is destroy their guard and half their health. Then they knock you down and beat you until you die or someone else shows up and kills you.

    However, that doesn't mean GF is OP. It means that people have to think about how to fight the GF. 1v1, it's going to be a tough fight. If you run in without a plan, they'll probably win, or at least hold you off. If you ambush them, you can cc and seriously injure and maybe kill them before they can even use their guard. 2v1, you can kill a GF very quickly by getting behind their guard.

    So, like the rest of domination, is the fight worth it? Do you have an ambush/terrain advantage? Do you have an ally nearby that can help you melt the GF?

    Facing each class requires different tactics. GF is particularly strong against people who don't use tactics.

    With that said, DPS GF have too much CC. CC should probably be for tactics/tank GFs who don't do enough damage on their own to efficiently kill the target they're controlling.
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    uncag3duncag3d Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    jellicho wrote: »
    Think for a moment all the advantages they have in PvP:

    Naturally tanky and can block most attacks with ease.

    Can stack HP and Tenebrous Enchants causing their DPS to soar.

    Can chain stun any opponent with multiple knockdowns and stuns.

    Most of you say Rogues are overpowered, but rogues are incredibly squishy, susceptible to all CC and fewer CC options than any other class.

    Wizards overpowered in PvP? Again tanky and with Tenebrous most GFs can out DPS any other class.

    GFs are actually the best PvP class as they can DPS and have incredible survivability.

    it is all about builds, people are starting to use my build an roll u guys.... but the rogues in my guild can roll me they just not going to post a guide... an neither am i after i transition to a new build..
    FearITsSelf #1 GF
    From #1 Guild Pve/Pvp [ Lemonade Stand ]
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    willsommerswillsommers Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 103
    edited June 2013
    It's all about the enchants. Nothing wrong with GF, many things horribly balanced with the enchants.
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    healsareophealsareop Member Posts: 155 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Nerf GF damage, fix CW feats, take off righteousness for DC and make recovery stat effects heals. Not that hard devs.
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    dilaniodilanio Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 44
    edited June 2013
    uncag3d wrote: »
    it is all about builds, people are starting to use my build an roll u guys.... but the rogues in my guild can roll me they just not going to post a guide... an neither am i after i transition to a new build..

    It isn't your build dude, not so sure why it is so hard to understand this. It is your enchants. I've had your build and setup way before you posted your guide but I lack the enchants. GF's are beasts in PvP in the right hands, the enchants make us way over the top just as they make TR's grossly overpowered.
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    creolegamercreolegamer Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    uncag3d wrote: »
    it is all about builds, people are starting to use my build an roll u guys.... but the rogues in my guild can roll me they just not going to post a guide... an neither am i after i transition to a new build..

    it really isnt that hard to kill a gf lol, a guide from the pro rogues in your guild isnt needed. a rogue can simple use duelist flurry to eat away your shield easy, Impossible to Catch to prevent knockdowns in melee range and after your shield is down, its pretty much gg from there....where's the secret lol.

    I would admit that gf's are prolly the most difficult class to solo in the game.....But what else do you expect from a tank? :P
    dps tanks on the other hand....hate em b!7che$
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    uncag3duncag3d Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    it really isnt that hard to kill a gf lol, a guide from the pro rogues in your guild isnt needed. a rogue can simple use duelist flurry to eat away your shield easy, Impossible to Catch to prevent knockdowns in melee range and after your shield is down, its pretty much gg from there....where's the secret lol.

    I would admit that gf's are prolly the most difficult class to solo in the game.....But what else do you expect from a tank? :P
    dps tanks on the other hand....hate em b!7che$

    just lol


    dilanio wrote: »
    It isn't your build dude, not so sure why it is so hard to understand this. It is your enchants. I've had your build and setup way before you posted your guide but I lack the enchants. GF's are beasts in PvP in the right hands, the enchants make us way over the top just as they make TR's grossly overpowered.

    i doubt it highly...
    FearITsSelf #1 GF
    From #1 Guild Pve/Pvp [ Lemonade Stand ]
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    inexistinexist Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    masu84 wrote: »
    Well... you played first time PvP with your lvl30 char?!


    Each other class is able to dodge most attacks easily, the tank can be kited by CWs easily. Its all about breaking the guard and then the tank is dead.


    Each class is able to do that. A tank got a slow attack. At a maximum of 15% necrotic damage by tenebrous enchantment and at a maximum of 30k Hitpoints this results in 4500 necrotic Bonus damage. Lets look what a TR is getting: 7 Tenebrous enchants instead of 5 = 21%, something around 20k Hitpoints, very fast attack speed. 4200 Bonus damage on each of the very fast attacks. Well a CW got many ranged attacks per second and is able to reach the same bonus as TR. So whats the problem with tanks? Hm? If you compare the 5 classes fully equipped with greater tenebrous and +maximum Hitpoints enchantments, the tank is still the worst damagedealer in PvP.


    Well, the GF got 2(!!!) knockdown skills which are usefull in PvP and a daily. The tanks damage is very low. Even the encounters are not that powerful. I got 12k gs, 5200power, 2000 Armor penetration(ignoring 20% armor), 1500 crit(=20% crit chance at all). My encounter damage:

    lunging strike:
    normal: 3000-4000 damage
    crit: 5500-7500

    Bull charge
    normal 4000-5000 damage
    crit: 7500-9000 damage

    Frontline surge:
    normal 3000-4000 damage
    crit: 5500-7500 damage


    Daily (indo strength)
    normal: 3000 damage per hit, 2 hits -> 6000 damage at all
    crit: 5500 damage per hit. 11000 damage if both hits were crit. strikes.

    Well the crit chance of 20% is the main problem. Most other classes got a much higher burst damage. The tank is very strong in 1on1 but if the enemy (especially CWs) are dodging correctly, the tank has NO CHANCE. It is all about dodging attacks and the tank CANT DOGDE anything. The tank is able to block some attacks in FRONT of him, but he is walking slowly while blocking.


    OMG!

    Dazing strike? Smokebomb? Just run to a pylon in PvP (stealthed) see most enemies standing close together. Smokebomb in middle, dazing strike and lashing blade = KILL for most classes. dazing strike and lashing blade are able to deal more than 30k damage(both skills on one enemy) ... even on tanks. And because of the smokebomb, they are dazed.
    Another option: Shadow strike! Dazing target, refilling stealth bar, not removing stealth...


    well TR got no CC skills... oh wait... :X


    Dodge attacks, use CC skills and the tank has no chance. But if you wanna compare a Tank with poerfect gear, full Tenebrous and maximum damage with a CW with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear, no Tenebrous, ... you are right. A perfectly equipped tank will kill a CW with 4000gs easily. Well each class is able to kill people with bad equipment.


    Funny, im GF and im dying most of the time to CWs and TR while hiding behind my shield.

    Well all classes got the ability to dodge incoming attacks, but not the tank. If you are not able to use dodge correctly, its your fault. Dont blame the GF for your stupidness.


    And all in all: Tenebrous Enchantments are stupid and to strong. They should remove this stupid enchantment which is able to make everything to DD!

    You think that damage is 'really low' for a tank class? Wow, you do realize you just said that about a tank class right? Just wow....

    P.S. - Are you sure you know it's a tank class?

    /mindboggled
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    abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Tanks class should always have biggest crits in game. We are tanks. We blow #$%^ up
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    balorinbalorin Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    This class is actually OP just to forget it has no specific use considering the actual PVE content and design.
    Cleric was nerfed just to make a room for GF not as tank but just for another dps, there are nothing who really need a tank in this game and the block ability is almost useless except in PVP.
    It's the only reason why, GF are OP for the moment.
    Very good dps, very good defence and they can chain control a single target like a control wizard, something is wrong and a nerf will come soon unless they want to loose most of the clerics.
    And a game without clerics. . .when the only srtat is add add add and bumps should be more unpleasant.
    Well we ll see.




    .
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    abombination247abombination247 Member Posts: 1,279 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    balorin wrote: »
    This class is actually OP just to forget it has no specific use considering the actual PVE content and design.
    Cleric was nerfed just to make a room for GF not as tank but just for another dps, there are nothing who really need a tank in this game and the block ability is almost useless except in PVP.
    It's the only reason why, GF are OP for the moment.
    Very good dps, very good defence and they can chain control a single target like a control wizard, something is wrong and a nerf will come soon unless they want to loose most of the clerics.
    And a game without clerics. . .when the only srtat is add add add and bumps should be more unpleasant.
    Well we ll see.




    .

    A PvP match without clerics sounds awesome. I really don't like healing in my PvP. Since it is Player vs Player not Player vs Watch me heal.

    Next. You do have a team right ? A clerics team is supposed to guard him and peel. That is there purpose!! A cleric alone should get nuked. A cleric with a team should never die. See the difference there. Tank clerics already require 3 ppl to kill them. I don't know what you want. There still on the OP side if geared and played right.
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    hobieonehobieone Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    the solution is simple! cryptic needs to to take a page from guild wars and guild wars 2. and allow separate skills for pvp so that pve and pvp can be balanced separately with out hurting the other too much. which is why guild wars has the best balance pvp of all mmo's probably. exception might be eve online but eve is pvp based entirely and pve is just secondary.

    funny thing is i like this games pve play a lot but not its pvp even tho i would like to like it. but before any fix can be attempted class wise cryptic needs to get a handle on the bots in pvp. as well as plug up a lot of the exploits. first so it can be seem if a class power is in fact pvp game breaking or just someone exploiting or hacking that power to gain an advantage in pvp.
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    seraphidseraphid Member Posts: 158 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    inexist wrote: »
    You think that damage is 'really low' for a tank class? Wow, you do realize you just said that about a tank class right? Just wow....

    P.S. - Are you sure you know it's a tank class?

    /mindboggled

    u ignorant ****, what about go check skills and feats of a GF before u start whining?
    DO U UNDERSTAND there is a pure DPS FEAT TREE that has nothing to do with tanking, and which make gf normall dps class???
    Yes i know he use shield so probably ur fail kid's imagination told u they "have to tank".

    but still they are crippled, as the only class, by having no crts, other classes got about 2-4 x more crit chance than gf
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    alecstormalecstorm Member Posts: 142 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Actually GF is a strong class. I would say none class is op now, but clerics are up.
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    silveralucardsilveralucard Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 410 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    they strong only if they are full equipped clerics are strong with more t1 equip so who is better XD GF with not equip are like jelly Xd lol
    Everything works out in the end . If it hasn't worked out yet, it isn't the end...
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    vetcorevetcore Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Ok the issue here is that this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLYrFR9RT_U started playing NW as a GF.
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    monarrchmonarrch Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 164 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    masu84 wrote: »
    Well... you played first time PvP with your lvl30 char?!


    Each other class is able to dodge most attacks easily, the tank can be kited by CWs easily. Its all about breaking the guard and then the tank is dead.


    Each class is able to do that. A tank got a slow attack. At a maximum of 15% necrotic damage by tenebrous enchantment and at a maximum of 30k Hitpoints this results in 4500 necrotic Bonus damage. Lets look what a TR is getting: 7 Tenebrous enchants instead of 5 = 21%, something around 20k Hitpoints, very fast attack speed. 4200 Bonus damage on each of the very fast attacks. Well a CW got many ranged attacks per second and is able to reach the same bonus as TR. So whats the problem with tanks? Hm? If you compare the 5 classes fully equipped with greater tenebrous and +maximum Hitpoints enchantments, the tank is still the worst damagedealer in PvP.


    Well, the GF got 2(!!!) knockdown skills which are usefull in PvP and a daily. The tanks damage is very low. Even the encounters are not that powerful. I got 12k gs, 5200power, 2000 Armor penetration(ignoring 20% armor), 1500 crit(=20% crit chance at all). My encounter damage:

    lunging strike:
    normal: 3000-4000 damage
    crit: 5500-7500

    Bull charge
    normal 4000-5000 damage
    crit: 7500-9000 damage

    Frontline surge:
    normal 3000-4000 damage
    crit: 5500-7500 damage


    Daily (indo strength)
    normal: 3000 damage per hit, 2 hits -> 6000 damage at all
    crit: 5500 damage per hit. 11000 damage if both hits were crit. strikes.

    Well the crit chance of 20% is the main problem. Most other classes got a much higher burst damage. The tank is very strong in 1on1 but if the enemy (especially CWs) are dodging correctly, the tank has NO CHANCE. It is all about dodging attacks and the tank CANT DOGDE anything. The tank is able to block some attacks in FRONT of him, but he is walking slowly while blocking.


    OMG!

    Dazing strike? Smokebomb? Just run to a pylon in PvP (stealthed) see most enemies standing close together. Smokebomb in middle, dazing strike and lashing blade = KILL for most classes. dazing strike and lashing blade are able to deal more than 30k damage(both skills on one enemy) ... even on tanks. And because of the smokebomb, they are dazed.
    Another option: Shadow strike! Dazing target, refilling stealth bar, not removing stealth...


    well TR got no CC skills... oh wait... :X


    Dodge attacks, use CC skills and the tank has no chance. But if you wanna compare a Tank with poerfect gear, full Tenebrous and maximum damage with a CW with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear, no Tenebrous, ... you are right. A perfectly equipped tank will kill a CW with 4000gs easily. Well each class is able to kill people with bad equipment.


    Funny, im GF and im dying most of the time to CWs and TR while hiding behind my shield.

    Well all classes got the ability to dodge incoming attacks, but not the tank. If you are not able to use dodge correctly, its your fault. Dont blame the GF for your stupidness.


    And all in all: Tenebrous Enchantments are stupid and to strong. They should remove this stupid enchantment which is able to make everything to DD!

    Dude I've been bull charged and hit with lunging strike for 15k plus. Your numbers are either lies or you don't know your own class.
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