Well at the moment we have few tools for healing and no tools for anything else. Our dps completely sucks.
You're exaggerating, especially about the "no tools for anything else" bit.
Our DPS often appears to suck according to the meters, but I suspect the DPS meters don't consider the damage buffs we're giving to the party via HG/Glow/Linked or the damage resistance shred we're applying to enemies with Glow/Feated Daunting/Prophecy/set bonus proc. (HG alone may well be the most damaging daily power in the game despite doing no damage by itself, and buffs the party's defense to boot.)
Just like people often don't take into account the stacks-up-to-3-times 15% defense shred GWFs apply with crits if they take a particular feat (and I think they should take it xD). That kind of stuff puts some serious damage amplification on bosses (and speeds up trash in non-push-off-cliff situations). Clerics get a lot of that sort of thing, and people need to take it into account when evaluating the class.
I also wouldn't classify cleric DPS in an AoE setting (Glow/Daunting/Searing) as "bad," even from a metered numbers perspective -- assuming that one is geared and feated for it, anyway. Not great DPS? Yeah, probably not great. But given the buff/debuff aspects of that kind of play, I think it's surprisingly close to being in line -- at least, from what I've seen of it so far. (Even running two AoE nukes + AS on a healing-spec'd DC isn't that bad of a setup for trash clearing in a number of epic dungeons, and helps out a lot with weenie slaying in particular. There are plenty of situations where I can do more to protect my party by making five weenies instantly die than I can by trying to heal the party directly, and after thinking on it for a while, I don't really think that's bad design in a game that's supposed to be action-oriented.)
Anyway, the cleric's main roles in a party could basically be summarized to this: impede the enemies from achieving their objectives, while enabling the party to achieve their own objectives more efficiently. That's true in both PvE and PvP. Healing can play a part in both of those roles simultaneously, but it isn't (by itself) the full scope of playing those roles, and I hope Cryptic doesn't fall into the trap of forcing it to be. (So far they don't look like they're going to, which makes me pleased.)
Do some of our heals need buffs/changes? Undoubtedly. But I can understand Cryptic being extra careful to avoid turning the class into a genuine healbot who is expected to do nothing in a party but "MAEK GREEN BAR GO UP."
Do some of our heals need buffs/changes? Undoubtedly. But I can understand Cryptic being extra careful to avoid turning the class into a genuine healbot who is expected to do nothing in a party but "MAEK GREEN BAR GO UP."
But that's exactly what happened. There is no opportunity to buff/debuff simply because you need to be healing during the 5 second AS downtime. And there are only 2-3 viable (subpar) heals, so every cleric will slot the same three encounters. Our fancy new Divine Glow/Prophecy will never be used.
From the (admittedly limited) experience I've had in T2 since the patch so far, I would guess that if you actually do need to be chain-healing during the 5 seconds of AS downtime or else your party wipes, then your party is most likely doing something wrong.
Groups in general are still learning to use their tanks effectively. Now that the tanks can... well, tank things by holding their threat. It's kind of a strange new world.
Of course, CN may be a problem. (I haven't set foot in there since the patch.) And Syndrith seems pretty crazy.
But Karrundax was pretty easy when I did that one recently, and so was Frozen Heart. (I never used Astral Shield that much against the final boss of Frozen Heart anyway, as I'm too busy running in a huge circle with about 10 adds behind me and throwing Astral Seals and Healing Words periodically.)
I dunno, I just tend to feel like a lot of the "REROLL NOW, THE CLASS IS DEAD. ABANDON SHIP!" sentiments are knee-jerk reactions and waaaaay unwarranted. You haven't even given people a week to figure things out on live.
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mallonslefrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I feel bad about this topic, after the patch i was mad, so badly, wanted to reroll, because i did not know about FF.
I did a Karrundax which ended badly without FF no kidding ^^
I still have my disabled build (waiting Mewbrew guide to respec ) and so far, i did everything in the game Karrundax, SP, FH, CN.
This failed Karrundax is a long story apparently the TR was crappy and i got a real CW this time, combined to my FF everything is fine,
and i'm proud to say that i love my cleric that way.
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andyyypmMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited June 2013
So they're expecting that every single squad you'll get on dungeon delves will be an awesome squad... Since now, everyone has to know exactly what to do or - squad wipe... I'm assuming also there is no way of doing a T2 dungeon without a proper tank doing his job..
Besides, clerics depended a lot on AS just because the rest of their healing skills suck...
Healing word - barely heals, takes a sh*tload of time to do so, only have 3 stacks and then 10sec CD or wtvr, and seriously, can you actually say you can easily use a single target heal on this game? cause i can't...
Sun Burst - honestly i find this the best cleric skill in the game, assuming you have the 15%crit heal feat, and with some other cool feats and Miracle Healer set, even better. you heal like a truck and you can also get everything out of the way.. still a fairly long cd
forgemasters flame - really good heals in divinity but, needs to be on a target everyone is near to. and can you really afford to use ALL your encounters with divinity? specially when you have to be running around most of the time unable to AA?
bastion of health - meh heal, sh*tload of time to cast, amazingly long CD.. not too bad on divinity but same as FF.
i actually tried prophecy of doom with its feat, but it didn't seem to be working properly.. or maybe it just didn't heal as much as i expected, i don't remember..
This said, i am not against the AS nerf.. I just think they should have balanced the class with some buffs on the rest of the healing skills.. that way we'd also see lots of different ways to build/skill up a cleric, instead of everyone doing the same skill (AS) all the freakin time..
Cause it was starting to be boring for the clerics, all we had to do was AS and everything would be fine.. But now it's just way too hard for a cleric to do anything without a fully geared and experienced team..
I can only imagine how hard it is for groups with T1 gear to try to get their T2 gear..
So they're expecting that every single squad you'll get on dungeon delves will be an awesome squad... Since now, everyone has to know exactly what to do or - squad wipe..
I don't have a strong enough incentive to join a guild as is. If the delves now require everyone to know each others play-style and to adapt to make it. I would be guild hunting real fast. Well this is coming from someone that hasn't reached end-game just from messing around with different builds w/o paying the zen to respec. Incidentally, I am leveling a cleric whose in-game mindset is to leave it in Tymora's hands if the party survives. If I'm with a cleric that has a normal mindset (mines warped) I won't even have a single healing skill slotted.
Comments
Well at the moment we have few tools for healing and no tools for anything else. Our dps completely sucks.
You're exaggerating, especially about the "no tools for anything else" bit.
Our DPS often appears to suck according to the meters, but I suspect the DPS meters don't consider the damage buffs we're giving to the party via HG/Glow/Linked or the damage resistance shred we're applying to enemies with Glow/Feated Daunting/Prophecy/set bonus proc. (HG alone may well be the most damaging daily power in the game despite doing no damage by itself, and buffs the party's defense to boot.)
Just like people often don't take into account the stacks-up-to-3-times 15% defense shred GWFs apply with crits if they take a particular feat (and I think they should take it xD). That kind of stuff puts some serious damage amplification on bosses (and speeds up trash in non-push-off-cliff situations). Clerics get a lot of that sort of thing, and people need to take it into account when evaluating the class.
I also wouldn't classify cleric DPS in an AoE setting (Glow/Daunting/Searing) as "bad," even from a metered numbers perspective -- assuming that one is geared and feated for it, anyway. Not great DPS? Yeah, probably not great. But given the buff/debuff aspects of that kind of play, I think it's surprisingly close to being in line -- at least, from what I've seen of it so far. (Even running two AoE nukes + AS on a healing-spec'd DC isn't that bad of a setup for trash clearing in a number of epic dungeons, and helps out a lot with weenie slaying in particular. There are plenty of situations where I can do more to protect my party by making five weenies instantly die than I can by trying to heal the party directly, and after thinking on it for a while, I don't really think that's bad design in a game that's supposed to be action-oriented.)
Anyway, the cleric's main roles in a party could basically be summarized to this: impede the enemies from achieving their objectives, while enabling the party to achieve their own objectives more efficiently. That's true in both PvE and PvP. Healing can play a part in both of those roles simultaneously, but it isn't (by itself) the full scope of playing those roles, and I hope Cryptic doesn't fall into the trap of forcing it to be. (So far they don't look like they're going to, which makes me pleased.)
Do some of our heals need buffs/changes? Undoubtedly. But I can understand Cryptic being extra careful to avoid turning the class into a genuine healbot who is expected to do nothing in a party but "MAEK GREEN BAR GO UP."
But that's exactly what happened. There is no opportunity to buff/debuff simply because you need to be healing during the 5 second AS downtime. And there are only 2-3 viable (subpar) heals, so every cleric will slot the same three encounters. Our fancy new Divine Glow/Prophecy will never be used.
So much for a leader class.
Groups in general are still learning to use their tanks effectively. Now that the tanks can... well, tank things by holding their threat. It's kind of a strange new world.
Of course, CN may be a problem. (I haven't set foot in there since the patch.) And Syndrith seems pretty crazy.
But Karrundax was pretty easy when I did that one recently, and so was Frozen Heart. (I never used Astral Shield that much against the final boss of Frozen Heart anyway, as I'm too busy running in a huge circle with about 10 adds behind me and throwing Astral Seals and Healing Words periodically.)
I dunno, I just tend to feel like a lot of the "REROLL NOW, THE CLASS IS DEAD. ABANDON SHIP!" sentiments are knee-jerk reactions and waaaaay unwarranted. You haven't even given people a week to figure things out on live.
I did a Karrundax which ended badly without FF no kidding ^^
I still have my disabled build (waiting Mewbrew guide to respec
This failed Karrundax is a long story apparently the TR was crappy and i got a real CW this time, combined to my FF everything is fine,
and i'm proud to say that i love my cleric that way.
Besides, clerics depended a lot on AS just because the rest of their healing skills suck...
Healing word - barely heals, takes a sh*tload of time to do so, only have 3 stacks and then 10sec CD or wtvr, and seriously, can you actually say you can easily use a single target heal on this game? cause i can't...
Sun Burst - honestly i find this the best cleric skill in the game, assuming you have the 15%crit heal feat, and with some other cool feats and Miracle Healer set, even better. you heal like a truck and you can also get everything out of the way.. still a fairly long cd
forgemasters flame - really good heals in divinity but, needs to be on a target everyone is near to. and can you really afford to use ALL your encounters with divinity? specially when you have to be running around most of the time unable to AA?
bastion of health - meh heal, sh*tload of time to cast, amazingly long CD.. not too bad on divinity but same as FF.
i actually tried prophecy of doom with its feat, but it didn't seem to be working properly.. or maybe it just didn't heal as much as i expected, i don't remember..
This said, i am not against the AS nerf.. I just think they should have balanced the class with some buffs on the rest of the healing skills.. that way we'd also see lots of different ways to build/skill up a cleric, instead of everyone doing the same skill (AS) all the freakin time..
Cause it was starting to be boring for the clerics, all we had to do was AS and everything would be fine.. But now it's just way too hard for a cleric to do anything without a fully geared and experienced team..
I can only imagine how hard it is for groups with T1 gear to try to get their T2 gear..
I don't have a strong enough incentive to join a guild as is. If the delves now require everyone to know each others play-style and to adapt to make it. I would be guild hunting real fast. Well this is coming from someone that hasn't reached end-game just from messing around with different builds w/o paying the zen to respec. Incidentally, I am leveling a cleric whose in-game mindset is to leave it in Tymora's hands if the party survives. If I'm with a cleric that has a normal mindset (mines warped) I won't even have a single healing skill slotted.