Ok, that's cool, thanks for all the effort in putting this together. Good to hear about ArP. I am switching to this spec tonight when I get home, I'll see what happens and maybe come back here and comment. I am optimistic about it for sure.
@jalfrey same as I said before. Use specific enchants after you have played around a bit with the build and run some T2s after the lastest update. My guess is you will find that survivability, not your damage, is what's going to be the issue.
how does your damage compare to rogues? what's your opinion on bitter cold vs nightmare wizardry?
I prefer Bitter Cold. With this build It's pretty much a permanent 5% damage. Nightmare wizardry first of all is a RNG feat. You first need to crit (35% maybe for your average joe), then after that you have a 20% to proc. It is a good feat, but I think it is a better fit for a Renegade spec. Second, how can you tell that when it procs you didn't have combat advantage to begin with on some targets? I think alot of the times it is redundant. It may or may not yield more than 5% more damage. I just prefer guarantees.
With regards to rogues, we obviously shouldnt be compared. They cant touch our AoE damage, and we cant dream of their Single Target dps. If you are referring to the damage score card. It's often a yoyo. While on trash or a fight with lots of adds, you would pull ahead, then a boss fight comes where all we need to do is burn it down, and the TR can bounce back up. But after playing a CW for so long, you can really manipulate the damage score for the sake of bragging rights. There are obviously certain rotations/"tactics" that will generate more damage than normal, but may pissoff whoever you are running with.
I was just wondering which feats you took these 5 points from as it has not been updated in your OP.
Cheers
It's really up to you. The last 3 heroic tiers are about adding damage. You're not going to make or break this build based on these 5 points. On top of that, Cryptic can't make up its mind on what is considered AoE vs Dot vs Normal damage vs Control spells.
I personally took them out of Focused Wizardry and Arcane enhancement.
Nub question ... (never have tried the thaum tree before past tier1). The bonus damage that Frozen Power Transfer feat grants for 8sec works just for chilling cloud itself, or for any power the wizard uses in this 8 seconds? I guess the later from the feat tooltip, as it states that is "reset" when you cast the third hit of chilling cloud again.
That brings me to another question before I decide to invest on the feat, reset means that "ends" the 8 second bonus buff or that it refreshes the duration of the buff (to 8 seconds again then)
Thanks you ;-)
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ttnugeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 23Arc User
edited June 2013
Is there a list anywhere on a wiki or someplace that list when.diminishing returns.for each stat really kick in? Currently sitting at the following stats and trying to figure out where to go with my enchantments for the biggest bang for my buck. Mostly concerned about the offensive stats even though I'm not trying to top the damage charts.
Summing up, heavy diminishg returns start to kick in for recovery@3000-3500 , critical@2000 ... Power has linear returns so no DR, but is not so good stat overall pointgain wise, you need to invest big ammounts to be worthwhile. Anyways is always wellcome, but better to hit the softcap on recovery and crit first. Deflect is not good, defense is nice after recovery depending on your build or playstyle, but the usual thing is recovery>crit> else in any order up to your preferences/gear
Ok, so I just got off a series of 3 runs of Karrundax with this build. Keep in mind I am not a very experienced player, I am just getting into T2's.
My first impressions: Good god what have I done, this build is not for me.. wtf is going on I am dead again
My second impressions: I'm being mobbed by the ******* adds all the &^%#in time.. this build might not be for me
My impressions now: This build is brilliant, I love it and will keep it.
So at first, just as you predicted I had major problems with survivability. Big problems. The area-effect nature of all the attacks means you literally have to be in the middle of everything all the time, which means overlapping red zones and just mobs of adds around your toon. I guess this means the Vizier set with its defense is a must for this playstyle. I on the other hand, was running a combination of 2-piece Vizier and 2-piece Magelord from an earlier attempt to pump up my attack stats. Did not have any health gear, very cheap defense enchants and the 2 points in toughness I thought I'd be clever and I put instead into the AP feat. Major issues staying alive ensued. Also, to say that a rotation of all-area attacks takes some getting used to is an understatement.
Surprisingly though, in spite of having died several times during the dungeon itself, I did not die in the boss fight, in fact I did kind of well, and I came out of the first run and went to AH ready to give the build a more solid shot. Invested ~200k into finishing the Vizier set, got a good belt swapped some power runes for recovery runes, upgraded defense runes, put in some armor pen, and did another respec, this time put not two but the whole three points into Toughness.
The difference in the second run was day to night. Not only from the difference in stats, but also I eventually got used to the attack rotation and settled into a rhythm of drop areas, dodge, drop cloud, dodge, daily, pop shield, dodge, drop areas, dodge and so on, which means I'm constantly moving at all times and usually out of the red even before it gets laid down.
AP gets refilled FAST - at first I was disappointed because as a Renegade I was used to seeing the die almost fill after a single Singularity + Shield, while with this set up this gives you just a third or so. However, a few seconds of dropping areas and dodging after I would get disappointed at the shield, I would hear the gong and realize I was at full AP again. Really cool.
Well I don't want to drag on but just wanna say the following two runs and boss fights were the smoothest easiest Karrundax I've done yet. Also really fun to constantly be moving around and just laying destruction and black holes all over the place without worrying about staying locked onto a single target.
Again thanks for this, was really helpful and introduced me to a new style of playing a CW. Will be checking back for any future updates for sure.
Ok, so I just got off a series of 3 runs of Karrundax with this build. Keep in mind I am not a very experienced player, I am just getting into T2's.
My first impressions: Good god what have I done, this build is not for me.. wtf is going on I am dead again
My second impressions: I'm being mobbed by the ******* adds all the &^%#in time.. this build might not be for me
My impressions now: This build is brilliant, I love it and will keep it.
So at first, just as you predicted I had major problems with survivability. .....
Thanks for the compliment. I am glad you are enjoying it. Just one comment about your initial 2 impressions. It really has to do more with the recent changes than actually the build itself. After the update, CWs are getting a TON more aggro. Astral Shield can't be up 100% so everyone is getting banged up pretty good. But you are right, with this build, survivability is the biggest issue because of all the AoE damage you are creating.
Is there a list anywhere on a wiki or someplace that list when.diminishing returns.for each stat really kick in? Currently sitting at the following stats and trying to figure out where to go with my enchantments for the biggest bang for my buck. Mostly concerned about the offensive stats even though I'm not trying to top the damage charts.
Does it pay to boost my recovery even higher or am I already into.the land where DR doesnt make it worth it?
Looking at these numbers, I am assume one of two things. Either you're not geared well yet, or you don't have a Cat/Ion Stone companion. Even before Enchantments, if you are in any T2 set and your Cat/Ion Stone is relatively well stocked too, you should have a lot higher stats than that.
Just to give you an idea on how to balance things. Your crit is probably about 1000 too low. ArP could get at least another 800. Recovery could be another 600-800 more.
Nub question ... (never have tried the thaum tree before past tier1). The bonus damage that Frozen Power Transfer feat grants for 8sec works just for chilling cloud itself, or for any power the wizard uses in this 8 seconds? I guess the later from the feat tooltip, as it states that is "reset" when you cast the third hit of chilling cloud again.
That brings me to another question before I decide to invest on the feat, reset means that "ends" the 8 second bonus buff or that it refreshes the duration of the buff (to 8 seconds again then)
Thanks you ;-)
Yes it applies the bonus to damage on any Power you use. And yes, the 3rd hit of chilling cloud "Refreshes" the 8 seconds.
in defense slot u guys go defense or hp enchantment?
Because a DC's heals are pretty linear, a CW will benefit a lot more from Defense. What's the point of having an extra 2-3k Health, when during the course of a fight, the healer cant burst heal you to top you off? Much better to have a constant damage resistance applied to all the damage you take. That's IMHO.
Just for kicks and because I know many people still have doubts about the effectiveness of Chilling Cloud, I decided to just do some very basic math just to put things in perspective.
The following was done with an Orb of the Spirit Cave without any enchants. No Cat/Ion Stone. Without any set bonuses that buff damage or debuff targets.
* Feats that affect BOTH Chilling Cloud AND Magic Missiles are NOT included in this calculation (i.e. Storm Spell, Learned Spellcaster)
** Elemental Empowerment procs on the third hit of Chilling Cloud so it is a permanent boost to Full Rounds of Chilling Cloud.
*** I may have forgotten something here or there. These numbers aren't perfect. Base damage numbers were taken from looking at the log and averaging out 10 hits (or 10 rounds). All the other numbers were purely extrapolated based on what the tooltips say, and just looking at the log to confirm that damage did increase.
**** If I have forgotten any feat that would ONLY boost Magic Missile. Let me know and I will add it in.
Chilling Cloud LOVE IT, USE IT!
Chilling Cloud
Chilling Cloud
Chilling Cloud
Magic Missile
1x Target
2x Target
3x Target
1x Target
Base 1st hit
491
0
0
618
Base Full Rnd
2583
3955
5327
3057
5x Arcane Mastery (15%)
2583
3955
5327
3516
Arcane Enhancement (6%)
2583
3955
5327
3726
Blighting Power (9%)
2815
4311
5806
3726
Bitter Cold (5%)
2956
4526
6097
3726
Froz. Pow Trans (5%/perT)
3104
4979
7011
3726
Chilling Presence (18%)
3663
5875
8273
3726
As you can see with this build Chilling Cloud RULES. Consider the extra damage if you manage to hit more than 3 targets with it. Even on single target, it is not worth switching to Magic Missile. ALSO consider that this is only the direct benefit of Chilling Cloud, and not counting the 5%/10%/15%+ boost it applies to everything else when Frozen Power Transfer is active.
Hi Copticone,
1) Why 1000 ArPen specifically?
2) Evoction does still boost all your AoEs, it just doesn't show on the tooltip. Try it!
3) Do you still use shield punt much now that you're using Icy Terrain?
Hi Copticone,
1) Why 1000 ArPen specifically?
2) Evoction does still boost all your AoEs, it just doesn't show on the tooltip. Try it!
3) Do you still use shield punt much now that you're using Icy Terrain?
1) You dont need 1000 ArP "specifically". My point was that you dont need as much ArP, with all the debuff you are already doing with this build. Anywhere around 1000 give or take 200, is an easy number to get. If all your other offensive stats are optimum, you can add more ArP if you want.
2) My head is spinning from all the testing. In any case, it is really pretty much the same value as Chilling Presence. The build up of stacks, which is still relatively quickly in this build is offset by the fact that it also boosts Chilling Cloud.
3) Shield should still be used at any "appropriate" opportunity. Like just before the mobs go up in the Singularity, when they are bunched against a wall, when things go crazy and you need a breather, when you need a quick AP refill, and of course to toss things over.
Does the OP have his power points posted somewhere (Screenshot)? I'm leveling an alt cw and would love someone to hold my hand even more! hah
My intention was never to write a "guide". I was mainly sharing my personal build for running T2 content. This build really shines in End-game, when you have all your feats and such. Also I think you should experiment and try many things while leveling up. There are also actual "guides" that would help you sort things out as you are leveling up.
That being said, the following are you powers you definitely want 3 points in:
Magic Missile
Chilling Cloud
Chill Strike
Entangling Force
Conduit of Ice
Storm Spell
Steal Time
Shield
Singularity
Ice Storm
Ice Knife
Chilling Presence
Evocation
Eye of the Storm
Ray of Enfeeblement
I've been running a similar melee-ish cw build, and I guess you guys who play this way will know that this is a pretty movement based style. In a boss fight we can't just stay in one spot and cast.
So the problem is, post patch I find that the aggro means that there is hardly any time to cast at all... after the first CoI, for example, one casual foundry I ending up kiting nearly 20 mobs with icy terrain while a TR friend chased the lot of us ard and picked them off one by one. Very funny at that time, but not really a good thing. Even in the dungeons, nothing so extreme, but it happens.
So I'm considering using the respec on a movement buff from the oppressor tree to buy enough time between blinks to get a skill off.
I've been running a similar melee-ish cw build, and I guess you guys who play this way will know that this is a pretty movement based style. In a boss fight we can't just stay in one spot and cast.
So the problem is, post patch I find that the aggro means that there is hardly any time to cast at all... after the first CoI, for example, one casual foundry I ending up kiting nearly 20 mobs with icy terrain while a TR friend chased the lot of us ard and picked them off one by one. Very funny at that time, but not really a good thing. Even in the dungeons, nothing so extreme, but it happens.
So I'm considering using the respec on a movement buff from the oppressor tree to buy enough time between blinks to get a skill off.
You have to understand, that with the recent changes, it is not just the CW's job to adapt. A GF/GWF now need to do all they can to grab aggro, and more so on the little guys, then on the Elites. The big guys we can easily dodge and even Solo. It's the 15+ other guys than can stun-lock you.
From our end, we should definitely be stacking defensive stats. I am also considering getting 10-15% Life Steal since the majority of what we do is AoE and we're able to get huge spikes of heals off of them, which could be a life saver when Astral Shield is down.
Comments
Ok, that's cool, thanks for all the effort in putting this together. Good to hear about ArP. I am switching to this spec tonight when I get home, I'll see what happens and maybe come back here and comment. I am optimistic about it for sure.
Ty for the guide, very interesting food for thought.
I tested it today and respecced into it after I saw that it does indeed add a flat 5% to your damage.
I prefer Bitter Cold. With this build It's pretty much a permanent 5% damage. Nightmare wizardry first of all is a RNG feat. You first need to crit (35% maybe for your average joe), then after that you have a 20% to proc. It is a good feat, but I think it is a better fit for a Renegade spec. Second, how can you tell that when it procs you didn't have combat advantage to begin with on some targets? I think alot of the times it is redundant. It may or may not yield more than 5% more damage. I just prefer guarantees.
With regards to rogues, we obviously shouldnt be compared. They cant touch our AoE damage, and we cant dream of their Single Target dps. If you are referring to the damage score card. It's often a yoyo. While on trash or a fight with lots of adds, you would pull ahead, then a boss fight comes where all we need to do is burn it down, and the TR can bounce back up. But after playing a CW for so long, you can really manipulate the damage score for the sake of bragging rights. There are obviously certain rotations/"tactics" that will generate more damage than normal, but may pissoff whoever you are running with.
I updated the OP with the changes after the recent patch. Look for the areas where I wrote UPDATE thought the post.
I was just wondering which feats you took these 5 points from as it has not been updated in your OP.
Cheers
It's really up to you. The last 3 heroic tiers are about adding damage. You're not going to make or break this build based on these 5 points. On top of that, Cryptic can't make up its mind on what is considered AoE vs Dot vs Normal damage vs Control spells.
I personally took them out of Focused Wizardry and Arcane enhancement.
That brings me to another question before I decide to invest on the feat, reset means that "ends" the 8 second bonus buff or that it refreshes the duration of the buff (to 8 seconds again then)
Thanks you ;-)
Power: 3785
Crit: 1713
ArPen: 301
Recovery: 2456
Defense: 963
Deflect: 565
Does it pay to boost my recovery even higher or am I already into.the land where DR doesnt make it worth it?
In this video you can see the figures of other stats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR4KdpzlbqU
Summing up, heavy diminishg returns start to kick in for recovery@3000-3500 , critical@2000 ... Power has linear returns so no DR, but is not so good stat overall pointgain wise, you need to invest big ammounts to be worthwhile. Anyways is always wellcome, but better to hit the softcap on recovery and crit first. Deflect is not good, defense is nice after recovery depending on your build or playstyle, but the usual thing is recovery>crit> else in any order up to your preferences/gear
My first impressions: Good god what have I done, this build is not for me.. wtf is going on I am dead again
My second impressions: I'm being mobbed by the ******* adds all the &^%#in time.. this build might not be for me
My impressions now: This build is brilliant, I love it and will keep it.
So at first, just as you predicted I had major problems with survivability. Big problems. The area-effect nature of all the attacks means you literally have to be in the middle of everything all the time, which means overlapping red zones and just mobs of adds around your toon. I guess this means the Vizier set with its defense is a must for this playstyle. I on the other hand, was running a combination of 2-piece Vizier and 2-piece Magelord from an earlier attempt to pump up my attack stats. Did not have any health gear, very cheap defense enchants and the 2 points in toughness I thought I'd be clever and I put instead into the AP feat. Major issues staying alive ensued. Also, to say that a rotation of all-area attacks takes some getting used to is an understatement.
Surprisingly though, in spite of having died several times during the dungeon itself, I did not die in the boss fight, in fact I did kind of well, and I came out of the first run and went to AH ready to give the build a more solid shot. Invested ~200k into finishing the Vizier set, got a good belt swapped some power runes for recovery runes, upgraded defense runes, put in some armor pen, and did another respec, this time put not two but the whole three points into Toughness.
The difference in the second run was day to night. Not only from the difference in stats, but also I eventually got used to the attack rotation and settled into a rhythm of drop areas, dodge, drop cloud, dodge, daily, pop shield, dodge, drop areas, dodge and so on, which means I'm constantly moving at all times and usually out of the red even before it gets laid down.
AP gets refilled FAST - at first I was disappointed because as a Renegade I was used to seeing the die almost fill after a single Singularity + Shield, while with this set up this gives you just a third or so. However, a few seconds of dropping areas and dodging after I would get disappointed at the shield, I would hear the gong and realize I was at full AP again. Really cool.
Well I don't want to drag on but just wanna say the following two runs and boss fights were the smoothest easiest Karrundax I've done yet. Also really fun to constantly be moving around and just laying destruction and black holes all over the place without worrying about staying locked onto a single target.
Again thanks for this, was really helpful and introduced me to a new style of playing a CW. Will be checking back for any future updates for sure.
Thanks for the compliment. I am glad you are enjoying it. Just one comment about your initial 2 impressions. It really has to do more with the recent changes than actually the build itself. After the update, CWs are getting a TON more aggro. Astral Shield can't be up 100% so everyone is getting banged up pretty good. But you are right, with this build, survivability is the biggest issue because of all the AoE damage you are creating.
Looking at these numbers, I am assume one of two things. Either you're not geared well yet, or you don't have a Cat/Ion Stone companion. Even before Enchantments, if you are in any T2 set and your Cat/Ion Stone is relatively well stocked too, you should have a lot higher stats than that.
Just to give you an idea on how to balance things. Your crit is probably about 1000 too low. ArP could get at least another 800. Recovery could be another 600-800 more.
Yes it applies the bonus to damage on any Power you use. And yes, the 3rd hit of chilling cloud "Refreshes" the 8 seconds.
Because a DC's heals are pretty linear, a CW will benefit a lot more from Defense. What's the point of having an extra 2-3k Health, when during the course of a fight, the healer cant burst heal you to top you off? Much better to have a constant damage resistance applied to all the damage you take. That's IMHO.
The following was done with an Orb of the Spirit Cave without any enchants. No Cat/Ion Stone. Without any set bonuses that buff damage or debuff targets.
* Feats that affect BOTH Chilling Cloud AND Magic Missiles are NOT included in this calculation (i.e. Storm Spell, Learned Spellcaster)
** Elemental Empowerment procs on the third hit of Chilling Cloud so it is a permanent boost to Full Rounds of Chilling Cloud.
*** I may have forgotten something here or there. These numbers aren't perfect. Base damage numbers were taken from looking at the log and averaging out 10 hits (or 10 rounds). All the other numbers were purely extrapolated based on what the tooltips say, and just looking at the log to confirm that damage did increase.
**** If I have forgotten any feat that would ONLY boost Magic Missile. Let me know and I will add it in.
Chilling Cloud LOVE IT, USE IT!
Chilling Cloud
Chilling Cloud
Chilling Cloud
Magic Missile
1x Target
2x Target
3x Target
1x Target
Base 1st hit
491
0
0
618
Base Full Rnd
2583
3955
5327
3057
5x Arcane Mastery (15%)
2583
3955
5327
3516
Arcane Enhancement (6%)
2583
3955
5327
3726
Blighting Power (9%)
2815
4311
5806
3726
Bitter Cold (5%)
2956
4526
6097
3726
Froz. Pow Trans (5%/perT)
3104
4979
7011
3726
Chilling Presence (18%)
3663
5875
8273
3726
As you can see with this build Chilling Cloud RULES. Consider the extra damage if you manage to hit more than 3 targets with it. Even on single target, it is not worth switching to Magic Missile. ALSO consider that this is only the direct benefit of Chilling Cloud, and not counting the 5%/10%/15%+ boost it applies to everything else when Frozen Power Transfer is active.
1) Why 1000 ArPen specifically?
2) Evoction does still boost all your AoEs, it just doesn't show on the tooltip. Try it!
3) Do you still use shield punt much now that you're using Icy Terrain?
1) You dont need 1000 ArP "specifically". My point was that you dont need as much ArP, with all the debuff you are already doing with this build. Anywhere around 1000 give or take 200, is an easy number to get. If all your other offensive stats are optimum, you can add more ArP if you want.
2) My head is spinning from all the testing. In any case, it is really pretty much the same value as Chilling Presence. The build up of stacks, which is still relatively quickly in this build is offset by the fact that it also boosts Chilling Cloud.
3) Shield should still be used at any "appropriate" opportunity. Like just before the mobs go up in the Singularity, when they are bunched against a wall, when things go crazy and you need a breather, when you need a quick AP refill, and of course to toss things over.
Question : You didn't mension what kind of stats are benefic for your build (i mean CHA, INT, ect..)
My intention was never to write a "guide". I was mainly sharing my personal build for running T2 content. This build really shines in End-game, when you have all your feats and such. Also I think you should experiment and try many things while leveling up. There are also actual "guides" that would help you sort things out as you are leveling up.
That being said, the following are you powers you definitely want 3 points in:
Magic Missile
Chilling Cloud
Chill Strike
Entangling Force
Conduit of Ice
Storm Spell
Steal Time
Shield
Singularity
Ice Storm
Ice Knife
Chilling Presence
Evocation
Eye of the Storm
Ray of Enfeeblement
The rest is up to you.
It's more of what benefits your playstyle, and balances your other stats. I personally went INT+CHA
So the problem is, post patch I find that the aggro means that there is hardly any time to cast at all... after the first CoI, for example, one casual foundry I ending up kiting nearly 20 mobs with icy terrain while a TR friend chased the lot of us ard and picked them off one by one. Very funny at that time, but not really a good thing. Even in the dungeons, nothing so extreme, but it happens.
So I'm considering using the respec on a movement buff from the oppressor tree to buy enough time between blinks to get a skill off.
I was considering brisk transport, but this guy seems to really get good use from severe reaction: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?347522-review-regarding-severe-reaction
Anyone willing to discuss?
You have to understand, that with the recent changes, it is not just the CW's job to adapt. A GF/GWF now need to do all they can to grab aggro, and more so on the little guys, then on the Elites. The big guys we can easily dodge and even Solo. It's the 15+ other guys than can stun-lock you.
From our end, we should definitely be stacking defensive stats. I am also considering getting 10-15% Life Steal since the majority of what we do is AoE and we're able to get huge spikes of heals off of them, which could be a life saver when Astral Shield is down.