Scale the match rewards based on individual player performance, and improve the scoring system. Assign matches based on gear score and premade party size. Penalize premades relative to gear scores, they don't have to be removed from the main queue. Maybe add a PvP ranking/leveling system to distinguish experienced PvPers from newbies, further improving matching. Add a 15 minute penalty wait if you drop during a match. Look at League of Legends for a great PvP model.
Maybe if PVP was fun then people would stay long enough to actually do it. I'd probably start there as a game developer.
Right now there's only 2 pvp maps that alternate between each other and they are basically the same gameplay. People are just plain sick of those. Maybe if they introduce new pvp gameplay mode then people wouldn't have to resort to cheap tricks to earn their daily PvP AD. I bet you without the daily AD grind acting as "bait", the PvP part of this game will be as dead as a door <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Right now it's more pain in the *** than fun.
I have left matches before the patch. I left 3 tonight. There should be no penalty. If there was I will still leave when I want. All is fair in love and war. Usually I leave when there are 3 ppl on me and I am 1v3 in a corner. I could stay and get nubbed or leave. I prefer to leave so that way I can join a game with PvP in it. The great thing is before the patch when I left it was buggy getting back in. Now the reque is great So I say its a good improvement at least. I mean now I can get full matches and good PvP in by leaving the bad ones. Yesterday I had 5 games I joined I was bugged/3 games I got kicked was leading. then 4 games where I had no team. So today its a lot better.
Right now there's only 2 pvp maps that alternate between each other and they are basically the same gameplay. People are just plain sick of those. Maybe if they introduce new pvp gameplay mode then people wouldn't have to resort to cheap tricks to earn their daily PvP AD. I bet you without the daily AD grind acting as "bait", the PvP part of this game will be as dead as a door <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Right now it's more pain in the *** than fun.
I feel that way about foundries too. 15 minutes, 4 times daily? An entire hour on 4k AD? Really? I could do plenty else in that time to get more than 4k AD....Or....I could even go outside and enjoy the weather, rather than run 4 boring repetitive foundries 4 times in a row. Yeah, I think I'd go outside. Sounds like a much better plan.
The more I read around there, the more I have to agree with the general community consensus; this game is not really worth playing. We'll see if gauntlgrym can save the game, but I doubt it after this imbalance patch.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I feel that way about foundries too. 15 minutes, 4 times daily? An entire hour on 4k AD? Really? I could do plenty else in that time to get more than 4k AD....Or....I could even go outside and enjoy the weather, rather than run 4 boring repetitive foundries 4 times in a row. Yeah, I think I'd go outside. Sounds like a much better plan.
Please do go outside and stop haunting the forums with your horrible attitude
The more I read around there, the more I have to agree with the general community consensus; this game is not really worth playing. We'll see if gauntlgrym can save the game, but I doubt it after this imbalance patch.
What is this community consensus, eh? I'm pretty sure I still see lots of players on the forum and in-game.
If you have to ask if a new patch/map can "save" the game, then it's obviously not for you.
So by queuing up solo you are agreeing to get beat 3v5premade? I dont think so. What human with 2+ braincells would stay and try and fight a fight they had no chance of winning? Just so as not to dissapoint the premade?
Howabout fix the system that allows unfair games to even get out of the starting blocks.
Please do go outside and stop haunting the forums with your horrible attitude
What is this community consensus, eh? I'm pretty sure I still see lots of players on the forum and in-game.
If you have to ask if a new patch/map can "save" the game, then it's obviously not for you.
I'd rather stay in right now. It's 1 AM. Not much to do outside, though I might consider going to bed, not that that's any of your concern.
Community consensus...you must have been attempting to read the forums with a blindfold on this last month if you havn't realized what the general opinion is. Or, you just selectively open positive threads that praise PWE in their title so you know it won't pop that happy bubble you live in.
There's plenty of people that still play, yes. Many many more that have already quit because of past incidents, and this imbalance patch for some was the final straw of incompetence. It's why I bothered to finally make a forum account to have a voice rather than just reading everyone else's thoughts; and to hope for some positive change that might keep me and my guild playing this game.
By joining a match you agree to play. If you don't then you hurt everybody else.
Right now people are leaving a losing game and instantly requeueing. First and foremost this should not ever happen in any game which has PvP. That is not up for debate. Sorry if you want to rage quit but games which include PvP have to stop people from rage quitting or everybody, including the winning team, suffers.
Instead of thinking of punishments for players for not playing, give incentives to play, even in a losing battle. Give good bonuses to the 1st and 2nd of *each team*. Scale rewards according to how close the battle was, so that your team gets more reward the more points they got, even if they lost.
The more you punish people, the more they fight back. Give them positive reasons to do something and everybody wins.
Problem is they need to implement a way for premades to fight premades and pugs to fight pugs. This is why many people also oppose a "deserter" system. To them it translates to "Be forced to face a hopeless battle against a premade." No one wants to do that.
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bellringer01Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited June 2013
Rewards need to be put back in for loosing teams otherwise all the kids take their toys and go home it seems.
Once there are acceptable rewards on a loss I'd have no problems with adding in a 30min debuff to all stats for folks who leave teams while in pvp. This way not only would they be stuffed in next pvp match they que for, but also for DD's too if thats what they switch to ;P
Could be a bit hard on the few who legitimately dc from pvp, but if something isnt done about the pathetic quitters pvp will just die out completely.
Might also be a good idea to match people based on Enchant slotting rather than GS. T2 sets aren't that much better than T1 but a team full of tenes and other shard enchants can totally OWN a team without them.
Cheers
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Disable join as a group or enable groups to only queue against each other. The last thing I wanna do is get matched up against a premade.
The only time I ever rage quit is when a 100% pug group (my group) with pretty awful gear scores got matched up against a full team, fully equipped with likely 12K+ GS a piece. One Control wizard burnt through double Astral Shields while the rest of his teammates danced next to us.
You'll find no argument from me that the grouping needs to be fixed for PvP.
But the three things which make me not want to PvP in Neverwinter are as follows:
Leavers.
AFKers/Bots
Pre-Mades vs Pugs
And it's in that order. If I'm not against an unfair team I'm matched with people who see the enemy gain a small lead and leave to requeue. Shouldn't happen. And it was happening before the lowered rewards.
The lowered rewards is more of a way to prevent bots and AFKers. I'm not fully in agreement with that and I'd rather see the rewards scale with the actual points your team truly earns as a whole. Less points = Less Rewards...
But the "We're losing so I am going to requeue and hope for a winning team" nonsense had to stop before it ever happened. I can't think of a single game which has team arena PvP and no punishment for leaving the team (AKA sentencing them to lose)
If it's possible people will do it and I don't care if you don't want to lose because neither do I. Leaving forces a loss on the rest of the team.
Right now there's only 2 pvp maps that alternate between each other and they are basically the same gameplay. People are just plain sick of those. Maybe if they introduce new pvp gameplay mode then people wouldn't have to resort to cheap tricks to earn their daily PvP AD. I bet you without the daily AD grind acting as "bait", the PvP part of this game will be as dead as a door <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Right now it's more pain in the *** than fun.
You are absolutely correct. AD is the only reason I suffered through PVP to begin with; I have since then decided that 1,000 AD isn't worth my immense boredom and just ignore it entirely. The classes are not balanced around fighting each other; you are either chain-stunning or you are the fodder that is chain-stunned. The maps themselves are needlessly huge (I hate the 30 second walk back into combat every time you die), and the points take a mind-numbingly long amount of time to recapture. There is just nothing FUN about PVP, and *that* is why people would much rather just enter and quit. I can't even be bothered to do that much.
Throw up all the penalties you want, you'll only succeed in making people ignore it entirely. The reward angle is BETTER. Making it enjoyable to do is probably the best option however.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'd rather stay in right now. It's 1 AM. Not much to do outside, though I might consider going to bed, not that that's any of your concern.
Community consensus...you must have been attempting to read the forums with a blindfold on this last month if you havn't realized what the general opinion is. Or, you just selectively open positive threads that praise PWE in their title so you know it won't pop that happy bubble you live in.
There's plenty of people that still play, yes. Many many more that have already quit because of past incidents, and this imbalance patch for some was the final straw of incompetence. It's why I bothered to finally make a forum account to have a voice rather than just reading everyone else's thoughts; and to hope for some positive change that might keep me and my guild playing this game.
Ah sry, different timezones
It's not a consensus if there isn't a clear majority of opinion. Besides, most people I know in my guild are quite happy with the state of the game and its direction. Call it a personal bubble if you wish *shrug*
Positive change is happening, the question is rather whether it's the direction you want to see the game go. And I honestly think you'd have a more accurate perception of the game if you actually played it/tried it to feel the progress rather than stick to the forum opinion.
You are absolutely correct. AD is the only reason I suffered through PVP to begin with; I have since then decided that 1,000 AD isn't worth my immense boredom and just ignore it entirely. The classes are not balanced around fighting each other; you are either chain-stunning or you are the fodder that is chain-stunned. The maps themselves are needlessly huge (I hate the 30 second walk back into combat every time you die), and the points take a mind-numbingly long amount of time to recapture. There is just nothing FUN about PVP, and *that* is why people would much rather just enter and quit. I can't even be bothered to do that much.
Eh, to each his own. I started doing PvP just for the dailies, but then I found that it's surprisingly fun every once in a while. Sure, I don't PvP with my DC main (cause I generally hate playing support in PvP games of any type), but with my GF it's a blast.
That said, I'm all for more numerous and more elaborate PvP maps and game modes. Just take a bunch of classic team game modes from Unreal Tournament series and tailor them to NW
By joining a match you agree to play. If you don't then you hurt everybody else.
By joining a random match you agree to possibly end-up with <Bad Word> that will leave. I don't think penalties are a must. However a better queue system that would "refill" the team is a must...but that is probably too much to ask...
See penalizing people doesn't solve anything. Ok, you don't allow me to requeue....fine I just relog on another character if I want to still pvp. If I don't want to pvp and left a game for whatever reason then who cares about the penalty...In the end penalties do not solve the fact that a team is screwed.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Putting a player into an existing PvP match is not a good idea.
Im gonna play the devil's advocate here, but why are people supose to stay when they just entered lvl 60 and have +-8000 GS pug vs premade groups with max 12000 GS, max tene enchants and 0% chance of losing, and i say 0% because u get oneshoted by tene stacking alone when u just entered lvl 60.
I feel punishing players with the current pvp/balance system is like punishing AH exploit abusers. (dont get me wrong here, im playing the devil advocate) basicly they are doing something that the current system aproves and even sugest's, just by allowing its existence.
Firstly pvp needs to be propperly balanced, to a point where gear has no effect on the gameplay. Why do i say this? Pvp is supose to be a match between skill of the players, not there time invested in gear assembly, dungeons already exist to show of the full potential of your gear. I could make the comparison between elite mounts and regular mounts, many times when i play pvp, there is a dude with an elite mount just running from point 1 to 3, and no he is not a bot, he just knows that a regular mount cant catch up, and he gains free 300 points with the current system and disables the effectivenes of the other team because they have to chase him at 50% the move speed.
Secondly the qeue system needs a rework like already sugested.
1. Random deathmatch/no weapon/armor enchants : pretty self explenatory, u join a qeue with all random players where nobody has aquired weapon/armor enchants yet leveling out the battlefield to be somewhat on the same ground.
2. random deathmatch/ weapon and armor enchants allowed : same as above just with enchants allowed.
3. same like the above but premade groups, make the same devisions like above (enchants on/off to level out the battlefield between hardcore pvp'ers and people doing it for the lolz)
That's all i can offer, but i feel punishing players in the current system is a mistake because the current system isent optimal at all, and already punishes players because of it.
I wil finish by saying that i think the new patches changes where necesery, but i do not feel they wil have the desired long term effect, for this an overhaul is necesery of the entire system.
Please feel free to "poke" my sugestions and enlighten me with alternatives.
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
That all falls under the same issue itheryel.
Fights should be fair and it's something which really needs to get addressed too...
But even if the fights were fair players leaving to join a winning match would still occur.
The other flaws aren't a justification for not permitting players to ruin the game for other players.
Im gonna play the devil's advocate here, but why are people supose to stay when they just entered lvl 60 and have +-8000 GS pug vs premade groups with max 12000 GS, max tene enchants and 0% chance of losing, and i say 0% because u get oneshoted by tene stacking alone when u just entered lvl 60.
I feel punishing players with the current pvp/balance system is like punishing AH exploit abusers. (dont get me wrong here, im playing the devil advocate) basicly they are doing something that the current system aproves and even sugest's, just by allowing its existence.
Firstly pvp needs to be propperly balanced, to a point where gear has no effect on the gameplay. Why do i say this? Pvp is supose to be a match between skill of the players, not there time invested in gear assembly, dungeons already exist to show of the full potential of your gear. I could make the comparison between elite mounts and regular mounts, many times when i play pvp, there is a dude with an elite mount just running from point 1 to 3, and no he is not a bot, he just knows that a regular mount cant catch up, and he gains free 300 points with the current system and disables the effectivenes of the other team because they have to chase him at 50% the move speed.
Secondly the qeue system needs a rework like already sugested.
1. Random deathmatch/no weapon/armor enchants : pretty self explenatory, u join a qeue with all random players where nobody has aquired weapon/armor enchants yet leveling out the battlefield to be somewhat on the same ground.
2. random deathmatch/ weapon and armor enchants allowed : same as above just with enchants allowed.
3. same like the above but premade groups, make the same devisions like above (enchants on/off to level out the battlefield between hardcore pvp'ers and people doing it for the lolz)
That's all i can offer, but i feel punishing players in the current system is a mistake because the current system isent optimal at all, and already punishes players because of it.
I wil finish by saying that i think the new patches changes where necesery, but i do not feel they wil have the desired long term effect, for this an overhaul is necesery of the entire system.
Please feel free to "poke" my sugestions and enlighten me with alternatives.
I am all for equalized pvp (where gear is only cosmetic), but that is not what this game is about. Having the option of equalized bgs like you suggest (I would say not enchants and only Tier 1 pvp gear to make it simple to implement) sounds a fine idea. I would link that to pvp ratings so the reward in that type of game would be to increase your epeen score instead of gear score.
However, that kind of thing seems something for the future. Right now we have pvp from 10-60 sharing 3 fundamental problems that actually prevent the game from even being played. Those problems are leavers, afkers, and bots. Given this is a gear-grind based game the rational way to address those problems is to increase the incentive to actively participate and decrease the incentive to abuse the system for your own gain (that is what leavers, afkers, and bots do).
Players should get rewards scaled by participation/score and winning should give a much bigger reward than losing as additional motivation to play to win. Leavers should get the standard debuff applied in many major mmos with bgs in them to stop them from abusing the system to find a winning team, potentially wrecking the game of many other players in their search. Sometimes that will mean having to sit through very unbalanced games, but that is just what any pvp is like. Even in GW2 with equalized gear some games went 500-0 just because one team was that much better. However, letting people just ruin the game for others by leaving with no penalty is really poor form.
The trick is to find the balance between the carrot and the stick that works best. I still think there is too much carrot and not enough stick. I don't care if players like warkupoz don't join pvp games anymore, because by their own admission they are just in it because the AD gain is so much better than the other dailies.
You just need to give enough of an incentive to get non-pvp folk in to give it a try (because they might end up liking it) but not make the reward so big that afking through four matches is better than doing anything else in game for that amount of time.
Maps are way too tiny to have any fun as the 3-4 person side of a ****ty domination match. If there is a leaving penalty, the losing team will still afk just because they have nothing to gain by trying.
This is not a 40v40 where there's something to do if it ends up a 40v30. There's no ninja back capping on maps you can cross in less then 10 seconds on an epic mount.
Enable mid match joining at the very least before any penalties please.
Wait... maybe you're hitting on a potential solution here. If we change the nature of pvp a bit so we ARE talking about large maps with 20v20 or 40v40 then a couple of people on your team afking or disconnecting won't be enough to send anyone back to the queue... also if the match is expected to last long enough you could have the empty spots fill on the fly with new players. Reward people directly for their contribution (ie 1 kill = x glory, 1 assist = y glory, 1 capture = z glory...), and then if you contributed enough to earn a predetermined amount of glory this way and stick it out to the end you get a bonus reward; something tangible for participating, and something larger for winning.
This is perhaps a major restructuring of pvp... would the devs be interested in this?
Fights should be fair and it's something which really needs to get addressed too...
But even if the fights were fair players leaving to join a winning match would still occur.
The other flaws aren't a justification for not permitting players to ruin the game for other players.
My point was that the current pvp system is very lacking and punishing players for the content designed, being broken, is a wrong aprouch imo.
It's like punishing players because the developers failed, and dont get me wrong, i enjoy the game, i think the developers are doing a great job. but i think everybody should admit certain aspect's of the content are more enchanced and better polished then other aspect's. I feel it is wrong to punish players for non-polished aspect's. First polish them, enchance them, then put in punishments when they are "prime" for release.
My view is, i can totaly understand that dude that just turned 60, he just played some pvp matches durring lvl 50/59 and those were fun he had a great time, the game was "fair"(<-- take with a grain of salt please) balanced. But then ***PING*** hes level 60 and he qeue's for pvp. All of a sudden he gets instakilled, no mather what he try's, a cleric is trolling him, dancing around in his astral shield killing him slowly with brand of the sun/tene procs....
Well, i can understand him leaving. Im not saying i enjoy this fact, but i can clearly put myself in his shoe's and understand the disapointment upon entering the lvl 60 pvp scene.
As for the "carrot vs stick" issue, why would u wanna optimize the carrot ore the stick? When the pvp in itself isent balanced/primed yet? U dont think the carrot and stick wil gain new value's once the pvp is optimized? ore do u think they wil remain stable forever?
I believe if pvp was more "fair" a lot more people would enjoy it, and the carrot would become more yummy to look at, factoring getting the carrot was fun(as oposed to now, where the carrot is like a consolidation price)
Let alone the stick, not even gonna comment on that point of view because it is totaly ofplace in the current content to be talking about sticks.
On the point of botters/afk'ers/farmers etc, pvp gear = BoA easy fix for all of that, u dont even need to change the glorry gain for the losing team. (but let's be honest with ourselves here, this would fix all isseu's currently present in PvP, however it wouldent fix the inflow of currency for Pwe, so this wont happen)
But again, making pvp gear not BoA is a developers mistake, not the players. wich result in a negative experience durring pvp, wich in return result's in afk daily farmers, instead of daily pvp players.
Action vs reaction imo.
Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
Might also be a good idea to match people based on Enchant slotting rather than GS. T2 sets aren't that much better than T1 but a team full of tenes and other shard enchants can totally OWN a team without them.
Cheers
This guys get it. If one team has a GS of 11k+ with rank 7+ enchants going against a team with T1 gear but slotted tenes, more than likely the team with tenes will win.
1. Deck everyone in the same PVP gear when they enter a PVP match, then it isn't about carrot on a stick, afk farming for glory. Remove the thing to be farmed, and the people who show up will be those who want to compete. This also balances gear/enchant disparity.
2. Balance PVP separately from PVE, this way balance changes to meet demands in 1 do not affect the other.
People don't leave due to the premades.
They leave because there's no ****ing kick button and there's nothing but bots in the game.
90% of the player base have no clue about how to play the game so they get bots to do it for them.
Blame them, and not the people that leaves.
I won't waste 15minutes in a BG because 3/5 on my team are bots...
Thanks, but no thanks.
Devs keep making rules about this or that an it keeps pushing more and more potential PvPers out. They need to start thinking of ways to promote competitive PvP(ie even if you lose you get a decent reward) instead of their current rash of undeveloped strategies which only hurt PvP.
For example, AFK'ers were a problem so one of their responses was to nerf glory on the losing team. AFK'ers are all using bots which have them run around the map and target enemies which they cannot even detect now, but the real players on a losing team are still hit with this penalty aimed at exploiters. Half-baked ideas implemented result in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> PvP system and most players opting out of it who normally live for PvP in MMO's(like myself).
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nectarprimeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
Right now there's only 2 pvp maps that alternate between each other and they are basically the same gameplay. People are just plain sick of those. Maybe if they introduce new pvp gameplay mode then people wouldn't have to resort to cheap tricks to earn their daily PvP AD. I bet you without the daily AD grind acting as "bait", the PvP part of this game will be as dead as a door <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Right now it's more pain in the *** than fun.
I feel that way about foundries too. 15 minutes, 4 times daily? An entire hour on 4k AD? Really? I could do plenty else in that time to get more than 4k AD....Or....I could even go outside and enjoy the weather, rather than run 4 boring repetitive foundries 4 times in a row. Yeah, I think I'd go outside. Sounds like a much better plan.
The more I read around there, the more I have to agree with the general community consensus; this game is not really worth playing. We'll see if gauntlgrym can save the game, but I doubt it after this imbalance patch.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Leaver_Buster
Not ideal, but seems to work somewhat.
Please do go outside and stop haunting the forums with your horrible attitude
What is this community consensus, eh? I'm pretty sure I still see lots of players on the forum and in-game.
If you have to ask if a new patch/map can "save" the game, then it's obviously not for you.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=26013/deserter
Deserter debuff
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Howabout fix the system that allows unfair games to even get out of the starting blocks.
I'd rather stay in right now. It's 1 AM. Not much to do outside, though I might consider going to bed, not that that's any of your concern.
Community consensus...you must have been attempting to read the forums with a blindfold on this last month if you havn't realized what the general opinion is. Or, you just selectively open positive threads that praise PWE in their title so you know it won't pop that happy bubble you live in.
There's plenty of people that still play, yes. Many many more that have already quit because of past incidents, and this imbalance patch for some was the final straw of incompetence. It's why I bothered to finally make a forum account to have a voice rather than just reading everyone else's thoughts; and to hope for some positive change that might keep me and my guild playing this game.
Totally agree.
Again spot on.
Use the carrot.
Instead of thinking of punishments for players for not playing, give incentives to play, even in a losing battle. Give good bonuses to the 1st and 2nd of *each team*. Scale rewards according to how close the battle was, so that your team gets more reward the more points they got, even if they lost.
The more you punish people, the more they fight back. Give them positive reasons to do something and everybody wins.
Once there are acceptable rewards on a loss I'd have no problems with adding in a 30min debuff to all stats for folks who leave teams while in pvp. This way not only would they be stuffed in next pvp match they que for, but also for DD's too if thats what they switch to ;P
Could be a bit hard on the few who legitimately dc from pvp, but if something isnt done about the pathetic quitters pvp will just die out completely.
Might also be a good idea to match people based on Enchant slotting rather than GS. T2 sets aren't that much better than T1 but a team full of tenes and other shard enchants can totally OWN a team without them.
Cheers
The only time I ever rage quit is when a 100% pug group (my group) with pretty awful gear scores got matched up against a full team, fully equipped with likely 12K+ GS a piece. One Control wizard burnt through double Astral Shields while the rest of his teammates danced next to us.
You'll find no argument from me that the grouping needs to be fixed for PvP.
But the three things which make me not want to PvP in Neverwinter are as follows:
Leavers.
AFKers/Bots
Pre-Mades vs Pugs
And it's in that order. If I'm not against an unfair team I'm matched with people who see the enemy gain a small lead and leave to requeue. Shouldn't happen. And it was happening before the lowered rewards.
The lowered rewards is more of a way to prevent bots and AFKers. I'm not fully in agreement with that and I'd rather see the rewards scale with the actual points your team truly earns as a whole. Less points = Less Rewards...
But the "We're losing so I am going to requeue and hope for a winning team" nonsense had to stop before it ever happened. I can't think of a single game which has team arena PvP and no punishment for leaving the team (AKA sentencing them to lose)
If it's possible people will do it and I don't care if you don't want to lose because neither do I. Leaving forces a loss on the rest of the team.
You are absolutely correct. AD is the only reason I suffered through PVP to begin with; I have since then decided that 1,000 AD isn't worth my immense boredom and just ignore it entirely. The classes are not balanced around fighting each other; you are either chain-stunning or you are the fodder that is chain-stunned. The maps themselves are needlessly huge (I hate the 30 second walk back into combat every time you die), and the points take a mind-numbingly long amount of time to recapture. There is just nothing FUN about PVP, and *that* is why people would much rather just enter and quit. I can't even be bothered to do that much.
Throw up all the penalties you want, you'll only succeed in making people ignore it entirely. The reward angle is BETTER. Making it enjoyable to do is probably the best option however.
It's not a consensus if there isn't a clear majority of opinion. Besides, most people I know in my guild are quite happy with the state of the game and its direction. Call it a personal bubble if you wish *shrug*
Positive change is happening, the question is rather whether it's the direction you want to see the game go. And I honestly think you'd have a more accurate perception of the game if you actually played it/tried it to feel the progress rather than stick to the forum opinion.
Eh, to each his own. I started doing PvP just for the dailies, but then I found that it's surprisingly fun every once in a while. Sure, I don't PvP with my DC main (cause I generally hate playing support in PvP games of any type), but with my GF it's a blast.
That said, I'm all for more numerous and more elaborate PvP maps and game modes. Just take a bunch of classic team game modes from Unreal Tournament series and tailor them to NW
By joining a random match you agree to possibly end-up with <Bad Word> that will leave. I don't think penalties are a must. However a better queue system that would "refill" the team is a must...but that is probably too much to ask...
See penalizing people doesn't solve anything. Ok, you don't allow me to requeue....fine I just relog on another character if I want to still pvp. If I don't want to pvp and left a game for whatever reason then who cares about the penalty...In the end penalties do not solve the fact that a team is screwed.
I feel punishing players with the current pvp/balance system is like punishing AH exploit abusers. (dont get me wrong here, im playing the devil advocate) basicly they are doing something that the current system aproves and even sugest's, just by allowing its existence.
Firstly pvp needs to be propperly balanced, to a point where gear has no effect on the gameplay. Why do i say this? Pvp is supose to be a match between skill of the players, not there time invested in gear assembly, dungeons already exist to show of the full potential of your gear. I could make the comparison between elite mounts and regular mounts, many times when i play pvp, there is a dude with an elite mount just running from point 1 to 3, and no he is not a bot, he just knows that a regular mount cant catch up, and he gains free 300 points with the current system and disables the effectivenes of the other team because they have to chase him at 50% the move speed.
Secondly the qeue system needs a rework like already sugested.
1. Random deathmatch/no weapon/armor enchants : pretty self explenatory, u join a qeue with all random players where nobody has aquired weapon/armor enchants yet leveling out the battlefield to be somewhat on the same ground.
2. random deathmatch/ weapon and armor enchants allowed : same as above just with enchants allowed.
3. same like the above but premade groups, make the same devisions like above (enchants on/off to level out the battlefield between hardcore pvp'ers and people doing it for the lolz)
That's all i can offer, but i feel punishing players in the current system is a mistake because the current system isent optimal at all, and already punishes players because of it.
I wil finish by saying that i think the new patches changes where necesery, but i do not feel they wil have the desired long term effect, for this an overhaul is necesery of the entire system.
Please feel free to "poke" my sugestions and enlighten me with alternatives.
Fights should be fair and it's something which really needs to get addressed too...
But even if the fights were fair players leaving to join a winning match would still occur.
The other flaws aren't a justification for not permitting players to ruin the game for other players.
I am all for equalized pvp (where gear is only cosmetic), but that is not what this game is about. Having the option of equalized bgs like you suggest (I would say not enchants and only Tier 1 pvp gear to make it simple to implement) sounds a fine idea. I would link that to pvp ratings so the reward in that type of game would be to increase your epeen score instead of gear score.
However, that kind of thing seems something for the future. Right now we have pvp from 10-60 sharing 3 fundamental problems that actually prevent the game from even being played. Those problems are leavers, afkers, and bots. Given this is a gear-grind based game the rational way to address those problems is to increase the incentive to actively participate and decrease the incentive to abuse the system for your own gain (that is what leavers, afkers, and bots do).
Players should get rewards scaled by participation/score and winning should give a much bigger reward than losing as additional motivation to play to win. Leavers should get the standard debuff applied in many major mmos with bgs in them to stop them from abusing the system to find a winning team, potentially wrecking the game of many other players in their search. Sometimes that will mean having to sit through very unbalanced games, but that is just what any pvp is like. Even in GW2 with equalized gear some games went 500-0 just because one team was that much better. However, letting people just ruin the game for others by leaving with no penalty is really poor form.
The trick is to find the balance between the carrot and the stick that works best. I still think there is too much carrot and not enough stick. I don't care if players like warkupoz don't join pvp games anymore, because by their own admission they are just in it because the AD gain is so much better than the other dailies.
You just need to give enough of an incentive to get non-pvp folk in to give it a try (because they might end up liking it) but not make the reward so big that afking through four matches is better than doing anything else in game for that amount of time.
Wait... maybe you're hitting on a potential solution here. If we change the nature of pvp a bit so we ARE talking about large maps with 20v20 or 40v40 then a couple of people on your team afking or disconnecting won't be enough to send anyone back to the queue... also if the match is expected to last long enough you could have the empty spots fill on the fly with new players. Reward people directly for their contribution (ie 1 kill = x glory, 1 assist = y glory, 1 capture = z glory...), and then if you contributed enough to earn a predetermined amount of glory this way and stick it out to the end you get a bonus reward; something tangible for participating, and something larger for winning.
This is perhaps a major restructuring of pvp... would the devs be interested in this?
My point was that the current pvp system is very lacking and punishing players for the content designed, being broken, is a wrong aprouch imo.
It's like punishing players because the developers failed, and dont get me wrong, i enjoy the game, i think the developers are doing a great job. but i think everybody should admit certain aspect's of the content are more enchanced and better polished then other aspect's. I feel it is wrong to punish players for non-polished aspect's. First polish them, enchance them, then put in punishments when they are "prime" for release.
My view is, i can totaly understand that dude that just turned 60, he just played some pvp matches durring lvl 50/59 and those were fun he had a great time, the game was "fair"(<-- take with a grain of salt please) balanced. But then ***PING*** hes level 60 and he qeue's for pvp. All of a sudden he gets instakilled, no mather what he try's, a cleric is trolling him, dancing around in his astral shield killing him slowly with brand of the sun/tene procs....
Well, i can understand him leaving. Im not saying i enjoy this fact, but i can clearly put myself in his shoe's and understand the disapointment upon entering the lvl 60 pvp scene.
As for the "carrot vs stick" issue, why would u wanna optimize the carrot ore the stick? When the pvp in itself isent balanced/primed yet? U dont think the carrot and stick wil gain new value's once the pvp is optimized? ore do u think they wil remain stable forever?
I believe if pvp was more "fair" a lot more people would enjoy it, and the carrot would become more yummy to look at, factoring getting the carrot was fun(as oposed to now, where the carrot is like a consolidation price)
Let alone the stick, not even gonna comment on that point of view because it is totaly ofplace in the current content to be talking about sticks.
On the point of botters/afk'ers/farmers etc, pvp gear = BoA easy fix for all of that, u dont even need to change the glorry gain for the losing team. (but let's be honest with ourselves here, this would fix all isseu's currently present in PvP, however it wouldent fix the inflow of currency for Pwe, so this wont happen)
But again, making pvp gear not BoA is a developers mistake, not the players. wich result in a negative experience durring pvp, wich in return result's in afk daily farmers, instead of daily pvp players.
Action vs reaction imo.
This guys get it. If one team has a GS of 11k+ with rank 7+ enchants going against a team with T1 gear but slotted tenes, more than likely the team with tenes will win.
1. Deck everyone in the same PVP gear when they enter a PVP match, then it isn't about carrot on a stick, afk farming for glory. Remove the thing to be farmed, and the people who show up will be those who want to compete. This also balances gear/enchant disparity.
2. Balance PVP separately from PVE, this way balance changes to meet demands in 1 do not affect the other.
3. Profit
So true didn't even think of that workaround.
They leave because there's no ****ing kick button and there's nothing but bots in the game.
90% of the player base have no clue about how to play the game so they get bots to do it for them.
Blame them, and not the people that leaves.
I won't waste 15minutes in a BG because 3/5 on my team are bots...
Thanks, but no thanks.
Devs keep making rules about this or that an it keeps pushing more and more potential PvPers out. They need to start thinking of ways to promote competitive PvP(ie even if you lose you get a decent reward) instead of their current rash of undeveloped strategies which only hurt PvP.
For example, AFK'ers were a problem so one of their responses was to nerf glory on the losing team. AFK'ers are all using bots which have them run around the map and target enemies which they cannot even detect now, but the real players on a losing team are still hit with this penalty aimed at exploiters. Half-baked ideas implemented result in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> PvP system and most players opting out of it who normally live for PvP in MMO's(like myself).
That's the stupidest thing I've read all day.