Mind of Darkness Part 1-Need Reviews. Will review in return.

vuelhering · June 2013

Finished playing it through (my 'puter crashed twice... it's been hot here, and I think that's causing some issues), and my network kept flaking out on me, too!

I enjoyed it. Fun storytelling. I hated the dream sequence -- in a good way. Despite all the technical issues I was having, it was good.

IIRC, you asked for the short-code for others to test, and when I alt-tabbed to get mine, it closed the review window... So consider your FQ another 5 stars. Honestly, this was one of the best story-driven ones I've played. It was a little high on the combat side during the dream sequence, but that was cool. I kept dying when my network hiccupped or timed out of the game completely.

Did you use a drop timer for the fade to black? I was going to do something like that in one of mine in the future.

ovaltine74 · June 2013

vuelhering wrote: »

Finished playing it through (my 'puter crashed twice... it's been hot here, and I think that's causing some issues), and my network kept flaking out on me, too!

I enjoyed it. Fun storytelling. I hated the dream sequence -- in a good way. Despite all the technical issues I was having, it was good.

IIRC, you asked for the short-code for others to test, and when I alt-tabbed to get mine, it closed the review window... So consider your FQ another 5 stars. Honestly, this was one of the best story-driven ones I've played. It was a little high on the combat side during the dream sequence, but that was cool. I kept dying when my network hiccupped or timed out of the game completely.

Did you use a drop timer for the fade to black? I was going to do something like that in one of mine in the future.

No timers. Just lots of "appear when" and "disappear when". It is a cool effect until a group tries to run my solo quest. Then they experience really bad times.

ovaltine74 · June 2013

Here is another preview image for part two. (Can't wait to see mobs fall from that rope bridge.)

I am really trying to make each turn around a corner look fantastic. I know many are tired of running maps that all pretty much look the same. I am using the entire room, changing the shapes of the rooms, relighting them, going vertical in many places. I was getting tired of the whole flat map thing. Lots to explore in here. They are all going to be completely customized. About half way through with the design of the environment at this point.

I think my inspiration for the look of the map has to be the movie Goonies...minus the pirate ship. It is a big map.

redneckronin · June 2013

OK, just tried to play this.

Stunningly crafted environments, brilliantly handled storytelling, excellent combat pace and progression.

All let down by an over reliance on cheap gimmicks.

By which I refer to "smoke filled hall with traps you can't disable because a) you can't see them, b) you are in combat the whole time and c) you get bugged out on spike trap for 10 minutes".

As I understand it the spike trap bug is a known issue.

So why is it still there, in a doorway so you can't avoid it, obscured by smoke so you can't see it? Why?

Add in that because of the traps your companion becomes 100% useless (not good at all if your companion is your only source of healing), and the Mobs won't move off of standing on top of trap because their pathing is restricted by... ...you guessed it... ...more traps.

I am sure that had I got to the end of this I would have awarded a 5/5 with no hesitation at all.

But I didn't, and I have no inclination to lose another 60mins+ just to get caught on the same known about (from the Foundry point of view) and almost entirely unavoidable (from the game geography point of view) bug.

Its a shame such a brilliantly crafted story and environment is let down by what is an entirely avoidable (don't put trap is such stupid places) bug.

All The Best

ovaltine74 · June 2013

The hallway was designed to be difficult. The smoke is there so you can't easily see the traps. The hallway is narrow to limit your movement. The mobs have a serious knockback to push you into the traps. The traps are in the doorway so you can't easily avoid them. The final encounter in part one is a nightmare (literally); it was was designed to be challenging, and I make no apologies for it.

All that said, it is not impossible to avoid the doorway traps. By pressing the spacebar when you go through the doorway, you can avoid the traps. You may not be able to see the trap, but you can see the doorway. By the third doorway, if you are not jumping through, than you have not learned the lesson from the first two, and that is just not my fault.

redneckronin · June 2013

But you've used a trap that has a known bug.

Ergo the problem is the bug.

It is not the player's job to fix, or responsibility to find ways around, bugs.

That responsibility lies with the Author - you.

Another variety of trap there could work just as well, so why put in the trap with the known bug.

I am not at fault for you using a known and reported bugged mechanic - you are.

PS: I didn't "just walk in to" your bugged trap, I was knocked back in to it. Now someone, somewhere mentioned that the use of mobs with knockbacks was on purpose to knock player back in to the traps... ...oh, hang on, that was you.

So whose fault is I wasted an hour, and spent 10 mins trapped on a bugged trap? Yours.

PPS: Other than that the whole things was pure brilliance.

All The Best

oortexplorer · June 2013

What exactly is the "bug"? Could he use a different trap, or just move it slightly in one direction out of the doorway?

I agree with ovaltine74's point about the difficulty being important in that sequence, but getting trapped in the doorway for more than a few seconds isn't good, especially if it results in people not completing the quest. In my case it happened and I was stuck for maybe 15 seconds. Not a big deal, but if people are trapped there for much longer it should probably be addressed in some way.

redneckronin · June 2013

The bug occurs when the Spike Trap "spikes" stay raised up, it pins the player to the floor, unable to move.

I gave it about 7 minutes then quit.

AI agree that the corridor should be difficult, I agree that the use of traps and smoke is justified by the story.

I just question the wisdom of using a known bugged trap in an area where it very likely someone will end up triggering the trap.

You were stuck for 15 seconds, well the Spike Trap is not supposed to root you for that long, so its a "bug" even at that point, but at 7 minutes its a game-breaking bug.

All The Best

ovaltine74 · June 2013

In defense of myself, when I was making the design, I was unaware of the bug. Because it is a bug, it will eventually be fixed. Even with the bug, you can avoid the spikes altogether by jumping over them. Also the mobs can dislodge you with their knockback.

I was considerate enough to place the respawn point right near the final encounter so you don't have a long walk of shame back to the encounter. You can also use the campsite to refill HP during the fight because the last two sets of mobs stay in the hall.

I have reported the bug. Despite your opinion that it is my responsibility to design quests around game bugs, it is actually the developer of the games responsibility to ensure that I don't have to. It is a principle thing. Not going to change the design when it seems like it would be an easy bug fix for the developers. Either fix the root effect or remove it. The encounter is difficult with the bug, but you are aware of it, you can avoid it.

One positive thing I can say about that encounter is that once you get through it, you are home free for the rest of part one.

vuelhering · June 2013

ovaltine74 wrote: »

In defense of myself, when I was making the design, I was unaware of the bug. Because it is a bug, it will eventually be fixed.

There's a reasonable point, but until then, it hurts your FQ. Doesn't matter whose fault it is, the responsibility is ultimately on you to make a good quest. Bug or timing issue or texture missing... it doesn't matter. It's completely the author's fault. Like you I was unaware of this bug. I put some spikes in mine, and I'm going to go back and get rid of them.

I was considerate enough to place the respawn point right near the final encounter so you don't have a long walk of shame back to the encounter. You can also use the campsite to refill HP during the fight because the last two sets of mobs stay in the hall. I have reported the bug. Despite your opinion that it is my responsibility to design quests around game bugs, it is actually the developer of the games responsibility to ensure that I don't have to. It is a principle thing.

That's like telling your P&P players, "Oh, sorry but this paper I bought had numbers pre-printed on it, so when I wrote down the monster's hit points, it was 500x higher than it should've been. Blame the paper manufacturer... I'm sure they'll fix it eventually. I'm not changing the HP out of principle."

As far as placing a respawn point nearby, I'm not convinced that having good design forgives poor design. I thought your foundry did have good design, but how does that forgive bad design? I got stuck in the traps, but was eventually able to get out of the traps as a CW. I didn't realize some people literally get pinned until death or leaving.

But I'll tell you this:
It should never, ever, be a principle thing.
It should always, always be about the player's experience.
All foundry authors need to lose this prevailing prima-donna attitude.

oortexplorer · June 2013

I do agree with that. If players are unable to finish a quest due to a known technical glitch, it is not acceptable to say 'I refuse to change it out of principle.'

ovaltine74 · June 2013

vuelhering wrote: »

That's like telling your P&P players, "Oh, sorry but this paper I bought had numbers pre-printed on it, so when I wrote down the monster's hit points, it was 500x higher than it should've been. Blame the paper manufacturer... I'm sure they'll fix it eventually. I'm not changing the HP out of principle."

As far as placing a respawn point nearby, I'm not convinced that having good design forgives poor design. I thought your foundry did have good design, but how does that forgive bad design? I got stuck in the traps, but was eventually able to get out of the traps as a CW. I didn't realize some people literally get pinned until death or leaving.

But I'll tell you this:
It should never, ever, be a principle thing.
It should always, always be about the player's experience.
All foundry authors need to lose this prevailing prima-donna attitude.

If I and everyone took your advice, what sort of message would that send to the developers. I'll tell you. They would consider the spike traps a low priority because the players have found a way to cope with the problem on their own. I am not sure if that is what you would prefer the result to be, but I am sure that is the result you would get if everyone took your advice.

Prima-donna....that is funny. I don't have an ego problem; I assure you. I simply think differently than most people do. That does not mean I feel I am any better than they are. I just have my own mind and am not afraid to use it.

oortexplorer wrote: »

I do agree with that. If players are unable to finish a quest due to a known technical glitch, it is not acceptable to say 'I refuse to change it out of principle.'

You finished the quest, as have many others. Why is it not acceptable then to leave it in. It highlights a problem doesn't it? If we all avoided placing glitchy things in our quests, would they ever get fixed? No because the developers would then look at it as a low priority bug. Players are managing fine without them fixing it. It is a principle thing. I want traps in the doors, they are buggy, that is a problem, but it is the developers problem.

This player is not the first to complain about the trap. I am collecting data and evidence that this bug is not low priority. If that data leads to the problem being fixed, than me sticking to my principles did some good. Good for all foundry authors.

vuelhering · June 2013

ovaltine74 wrote: »

You finished the quest, as have many others. Why is it not acceptable then to leave it in. It highlights a problem doesn't it?

The reason is simple - you got feedback on how to improve the quest. It's pretty obvious that it would indeed improve the quest. However, you choose to punish some players simply to make a statement. That's not really the mark of a good DM, is it?

If I had a DM that was doing that, I'd quit the campaign. And I think the buggy paper with numbers is a perfect analogy for what you're doing. Maybe it's because I've actually done a lot of programming in the "real world" to know that it's the duty and full responsibility of the programmer to code around bugs. That includes hardware bugs, kernel bugs, and so on. If I were to whine that something buggy easily replaced was going to stay in until the operating system was fixed, I'd have been fired.

Just ask yourself, who's the quest for? Is it for players to have fun, or for you to make a statement?

I'm not necessarily calling you a prima-donna btw ... you're pretty chill and your stance on this was the only thing I found objectionable. Note I said "prevailing attitude" amongst foundry writers. This just happened to be the thread I mentioned it on. There are other folks here far worse.

rycele · June 2013

I got stuck at the dream sequence part where you had to fight in the hallway with the traps. I couldn't see well with the effects and despite multiple attempts just couldn't get past and had to give up. I did like the story and dialogue. I'll try one of your other quests and maybe have better luck.

ovaltine74 · June 2013

Oh for gods sake. You guys really want the traps out. I'll take em out. I can't argue with multiple reviews pointing out the problem. But mark my words, I will be watching the patch notes, and when it gets fixed, in they go again.

Appreciate your efforts to turn me, sometimes it is hard and I take a lot of convincing. Stubborn I guess. At least now it will no longer be an issue. Can't wait for the next person to complain that part of the quest is too hard though. "What do you mean too hard? I wanted to make it even harder!"

ovaltine74 · June 2013

One of the other complaints is the city streets and mobs chasing NPCs under buildings. I fixed that issue but now players are finding holes in my invisible walls. I will be able to correct that issue after the patch on the 20th. I will be able to change the behaviors of the NPCs to ignore the mobs and that should eliminate the need for the invisible walls. One of these days it will be a perfect quest.

redneckronin · June 2013

ovaltine74 wrote: »

Oh for gods sake. You guys really want the traps out. I'll take em out. I can't argue with multiple reviews pointing out the problem. But mark my words, I will be watching the patch notes, and when it gets fixed, in they go again.

Appreciate your efforts to turn me, sometimes it is hard and I take a lot of convincing. Stubborn I guess. At least now it will no longer be an issue. Can't wait for the next person to complain that part of the quest is too hard though. "What do you mean too hard? I wanted to make it even harder!"

You could use another trap in the exact same position, the Scything Blade Trap for example, the problem isn't "traps", its "bugged spike trap".

I don't think the Quest was "too hard", it was certainly challenging at times, I had my Cleric Companion "bug out" slightly on the Dwarf Pirate "Captain" (in the first square, on the steps) she could target it but I could not, so was stuck in combat for a while, but that really was for me the only other problem in there.

You've created a bit of a master-piece here, all the way through I was in awe at your attention to detail, and the brilliant pace of the story-telling. I guess I reacted badly to the Spike Trap for several reasons, that is really annoyed me that I an hour in I had to quit, that I didn't see the end, and that it seemed glaringly out of place considering how meticulously the rest of the project had been crafted.

Anyway, looks like the Patch is going live today, and some Foundry issues have been resolved. But I note that the Patch Notes have this:

Ebon Downs
Barrows: A trap that could get Companions stuck has been removed.

I can't recall if that was a Spike Trap. I know there are a few in of the Barrows.

If (and it is an if) Cryptic are removing Spike Traps because of this issue I guess we have to admit defeat and follow suit.

I have one trap in my 1st quest, and I'll be moving it slightly as soon as we can press "Publish" and not have the whole game lock-up on us. Until I started playing other Author's content I wasn't really aware of just how much impact traps have on Companions, because I tend to play my own projects without Companions (they have a nasty habit of sticking close and getting in the way while 3D editing).

All The Best

meedacthunist · June 2013

redneckronin wrote: »

I can't recall if that was a Spike Trap. I know there are a few in of the Barrows.

If (and it is an if) Cryptic are removing Spike Traps because of this issue I guess we have to admit defeat and follow suit.

Every trap put in the narrow passage will make companions stuck because their AI makes them avoiding traps. Actually, it also makes the same with aggro mobs. It has nothing to do with spike traps but with how AI works. Path is blocked so companion stays in place.

I think that Rime Hound is or was the only mob dense enough to walk on traps (and even if, it was probably made on purpose by Cryptic).

Every trap, not only spike trap, will be bugged and perpetually working if submerged too much in the floor geometry. Gas one, scything blade, any of them. Difference is that spike trap stuns, so if glitched, it stuns forever.
But then, this kind of trap can be used in Foundry, it only requires separate adjusting Y axis for every trap (more than half of its height must be sticking out of floor texture, look how it's done on certain Cryptic maps). Time consuming, but you can have working spike traps in your dungeon (but then, why bother if traps are insignificant anyway?).

oortexplorer · June 2013

ovaltine74 wrote: »

You finished the quest, as have many others. Why is it not acceptable then to leave it in. It highlights a problem doesn't it? If we all avoided placing glitchy things in our quests, would they ever get fixed? No because the developers would then look at it as a low priority bug. Players are managing fine without them fixing it. It is a principle thing. I want traps in the doors, they are buggy, that is a problem, but it is the developers problem.

This player is not the first to complain about the trap. I am collecting data and evidence that this bug is not low priority. If that data leads to the problem being fixed, than me sticking to my principles did some good. Good for all foundry authors.

Just to clarify my point, but if 1 or 2 people randomly get stuck in a quest due to a random bug or glitch, or their own mistake, there's not much you can do about it. These things happen. But when it happens a lot (and it's not entirely clear in this case how often it is happening), and the cause of the glitch is known, and the player cannot finish the quest or get out in any other way, it's simply a courtesy thing to modify it because you want your players to enjoy the quest and have fun, not have to close and reload the entire game. It also benefits you because you want people to complete your quest, give you a good rating, and play your next one. If they find something too hard, and you investigate and decide you prefer it that way, this is a different argument entirely. If they keep dying, they still have two choices. Go back out of the quest, or try the encounter again. Stuck, they have zero choices. Wanting Cryptic to fix the problem is also a side issue in this discussion.

I'll close with reiterating that this is not that big of a deal, and I wouldn't even recommend removing the traps. If you can replace this trap with a different one or even move it slightly, so that players no longer get frequently stuck, it is a good idea. And as I mentioned previously, your quest is hard but not too hard, and overall a **** good piece of work.

ovaltine74 · June 2013

I really appreciate the advice and comments. I have decided to remove the spike traps altogether just to end the issue. I won't be putting any traps in the doorway to replace them. I don't think it makes the encounter any easier. The Knightmare Elites still hit like a truck. I want people to get through the quest. After all, I am dumping a lot of time into part two. They have to get through part one if they are to be interested in part two.

This was a good discussion. Not only will it result in a better experience in part 1, but I think I have learned some lessons that will help me design part 2 better. You guys are great.

redneckronin · June 2013

Have to say that based on Part 1, Part 2 is now on my "Neverwinter Must See" list.

All The Best

ovaltine74 · June 2013

Update: Still down in the Central Station Mine.

So what does a customized map look like? That is certainly a debatable question. If you place a bed in a room, you technically customized it. Place a dresser in there, and you put fourth twice the effort. So I am not going to give you the definitive answer to that question, but I will tell you what I am trying to do with my current map and it's customization.

My goal is to make each room look completely different from what it looked like when I started. I want even the most seasoned author in the foundry to not know precisely (without actually measuring the room) which room I used to create it.

The pictures below are the current state of two of about 20 rooms on the map. The before and after images were shot from the same angle. I know with only one angle of the room it is hard to tell just how customized the room has become, but you might be able to pick out the subtle changes that have occurred.

I would say I am about 60% finished with the design of the map. I have not yet gotten into the lighting of the map yet. The lighting will completely alter the way the map looks, so you are not looking at the finished room by any means. These images just show the structural difference from what I started with to where I am right now.

Room #1 No Customization

Room #1 60% Customized

Room #2 No Customization

Room #2 60% Customized

Alright, back to work I go.

ovaltine74 · June 2013

Update: The last post I showed you 60% customed rooms. This image is a different room at about 90% customization, with lighting.

The last two rooms I showed you are also at about 90% customization now, but you will have to wait for release to see what they look like. Don't want to spoil it too much.

The lighting and color throughout the mine is very important, and I spent quite a lot of time making sure it was just right. I am using two different color schemes, one is the orange of the torches and the blue of the water (Complimentary) Then you have the orange of the torches, green moss covered rocks, and purple lanterns (Triadic).

When decorating a my mine, I considered first that a mine is just a cave with some tracks running through it. I also considered the story. This mine is located near a river, so it should have some flooding in it. The mine has a lot of water systems running through it. Because it is a cave, the cave features are its decorations. Angular rock formations with different hues of light casting on them. Dripping water here and there. Nearly 50% of all the decorations in the cave are the variety of rocks. The mine track weaves in and out of the rock formations as you progress further into the cave. Like a real cave, some areas are spacious, and some areas are a tight squeeze.

Very nearly done with the designing the mine and I will begin bringing in the story elements through the mine, adding the encounters, and working on various effects associated with the story. More updates to come.

redneckronin · June 2013

Looks brilliant. Can't wait to play it.

One thing the "builder" in me (spent a few years in my younger days working in construction) noticed that might be of concern to a "detail" specialist like yourself was do the lights over the tracks leave enough clearance for the mine-carts to go under?

All The Best

lolsorhand · June 2013

ovaltine74 wrote: »

I really appreciate the advice and comments. I have decided to remove the spike traps altogether just to end the issue. I won't be putting any traps in the doorway to replace them. I don't think it makes the encounter any easier. The Knightmare Elites still hit like a truck. I want people to get through the quest. After all, I am dumping a lot of time into part two. They have to get through part one if they are to be interested in part two.

This was a good discussion. Not only will it result in a better experience in part 1, but I think I have learned some lessons that will help me design part 2 better. You guys are great.

This is what I did, the foundry and spiketraps does not go well hand in hand.

ovaltine74 · June 2013

redneckronin wrote: »

Looks brilliant. Can't wait to play it.

One thing the "builder" in me (spent a few years in my younger days working in construction) noticed that might be of concern to a "detail" specialist like yourself was do the lights over the tracks leave enough clearance for the mine-carts to go under?

All The Best

The screenshot is deceiving. The mine carts certainly do go under. Unless your character plays for the Boston Celtics, you can walk under it. But if your character is tall, there is enough room to go around the lantern and still remain on the tracks.

Those are custom light poles by the way. Each pole is four parts. and there are about fifty of them scattered throughout the mine. Yes I do like abusing myself.

redneckronin · June 2013

ovaltine74 wrote: »

The screenshot is deceiving. The mine carts certainly do go under. Unless your character plays for the Boston Celtics, you can walk under it. But if your character is tall, there is enough room to go around the lantern and still remain on the tracks.

Those are custom light poles by the way. Each pole is four parts. and there are about fifty of them scattered throughout the mine. Yes I do like abusing myself.

I really should have learned not to question your commitment to getting the finest detail right.

All The Best

ovaltine74 · June 2013

Update: Added a few changes to part one.

Changed behaviors of NPCs in the City Street to wander and ignore the rioting sailors. This new behavior will prevent the Mobs from attacking them and chasing them into the geometry.
Remove the invisible walls from city streets, no longer needed.
Also fixed a few spelling errors.

Mind of Darkness Part 1-Need Reviews. Will review in return.

Comments