I think increasing the cooldown would help balance them. Maybe ~15 seconds? That would still allow them to do some good burst frontend damage while not reproccing again in the same exchange.
The problem with this is that 15seconds sounds fair for PVP but it completely BREAKS them for PVE... Greater tene enchants already < rank 7 arp/power for pure dps in PVE (See Rokuthy's guide).
So the only way (I can see) to balance them out and not gimp PVE would be that its a bleed or DoT. Even pure damage instead of necrotic damage would balance it some... but it would also break PVE.
Just for perspective you are proposing taking 900dps and dropping it to 360 DPS. Almost the same as taking all your greaters and putting in lessers for PVE comparison... Your damage would drop pretty hard...
I think the only way to mitigate this is turn it into a DoT and cap the stacks of Tene Dots at 6 or something... This will then force players to not run 7 tene (or even cap at 5?) set up AND removes the burst from that along with the constant application of the DoT.
If you make it a 6 second DoT capped at 6 stacks the Best you could do is have ALL 6 active every 6 seconds at 5 stacks. This means that DPS doesnt drop at all, but instead the Tenes would tick at 900/second rather than a big 5400 burst hit... But also just to put this in perspective as Envy has done, BUY glory POTIONS! You can mitigate this damage with 1 pot...
Capped at 5 stacks you get 750/sec for 6 seconds at MAX application..
This still gives viability in PVE/PVP and also helps PVP. Also makes MULTIPLE Tene builds in a group worthless since it is capped out... Heck even making it 10 stack cap like a rogue bleed could potentially make a HUGE difference since two people running 6 tene builds couldnt both get max benefit...
My question is, how do you know its the same tene that is proccing? I used to think its was 6 seconds, but was told it was more like 10 seconds and I have greater plague btw...
So to truly know the CD on it, you would have to have all 6 proc in < 6 seconds and then the "first" one to proc at roughly the 7th second or so. Do you see what I am saying?
If you get 2-3 to proc at second 3, and you have the 4-5th proc at second 5, that 6ths could be proccing at second 6 etc. I guess the real way to test would be how many procs in 1 min do you get, then you can have the average proc rate?
I have been trying to find this info out because it plays a big deal... According to Rokuthy, he has said its close to 10 seconds and during PVE damage testing less than 3% of his damage was from Tenes which cause him to switch back to arp/pwr/crit.
Thanks Envy. 5 seconds is pretty low... Thats almost 1100 DPS when full proced with 6 greater. That is great damage.
Currently tenebrous enchants are broken and can proc multiple times before going on their internal cooldown. I have screenshots of people getting 21 procs at the exact same moment with only 7 tenebrous enchants equipped. Even though getting 21 procs is somewhat rare, typically players with 6/7 tenebrous enchants will see an average of about 10 procs every 5 seconds. For some people that are stacking maximum hp, that's equivalent to 2,234 DPS from enchantments alone.
If it is only 5 seconds, it does seem almost too powerful for PVP purposes... How would you, if you would, recommend retooling the tene procs?
The first thing that needs to happen is they need to fix the multiple proc bug. This is by far the most important fix because currently, with some luck, players can do 22k damage the second they attack another player from tenebrous procs alone (yes, they can instantly kill another player with tenebrous procs because of this bug). Even after they fix this bug tenebrous enchants will still be too strong in PvP simply because of the burst damage they do. So the next logical fix would be to change the tenebrous proc to do damage over time (~700-1k damage over 5-10 seconds) so the burst is lowered. And lastly, if they want to be very generous and make this change as smooth as possible, they should make it free to remove a tenebrous enchantment from a piece of gear for ~2 weeks so players that decide they no longer want to keep the enchantments don't have to lose millions of AD removing them from their gear.
Currently tenebrous enchants are broken and can proc multiple times before going on their internal cooldown. I have screenshots of people getting 21 procs at the exact same moment with only 7 tenebrous enchants equipped. Even though getting 21 procs is somewhat rare, typically players with 6/7 tenebrous enchants will see an average of about 10 procs every 5 seconds. For some people that are stacking maximum hp, that's equivalent to 2,234 DPS from enchantments alone.
The first thing that needs to happen is they need to fix the multiple proc bug. This is by far the most important fix because currently, with some luck, players can do 22k damage the second they attack another player from tenebrous procs alone (yes, they can instantly kill another player with tenebrous procs because of this bug). Even after they fix this bug tenebrous enchants will still be too strong in PvP simply because of the burst damage they do. So the next logical fix would be to change the tenebrous proc to do damage over time (~700-1k damage over 5-10 seconds) so the burst is lowered. And lastly, if they want to be very generous and make this change as smooth as possible, they should make it free to remove a tenebrous enchantment from a piece of gear for ~2 weeks so players that decide they no longer want to keep the enchantments don't have to lose millions of AD removing them from their gear.
Did not know you could multi proc it, so maybe this impacts Envys cooldown vid?
do
I agree about the DoT thing and think it should remain 1/2/3% hp but have lesser tene do 1% over 2 seconds (150dps) normal tenes do 2% over 4 seconds (150dps) and greater tenes do 3% over 6 seconds. This way its the same damage per tick per enchant, greaters just do damage LONGER.
This doesnt change DPS for PVE purposes and still can be VERY powerful since you can stack a TON of tene DoTs on someone that will overtime melt them...
If they just remove the multiple proc issue I think it should be fine from there... its still a greater enchant that costs quite a bit of dough so I dont think it needs to be nerfed that bad, just fixed. I also think they should fix what it can proc off of...
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rigstorm420Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited June 2013
SO much trolling and heresay.
Tene's do 3% current hp. If you have 1k hp left as you are being kill they proc for 3 damage.
Crazy op omg!!! Nerf all the things!!
They dont hit for 1k and there is a cool down, no way they procced 20x in 2 sec like someone claimed. Unless the dude found some leet sploit bra.
0
iamsmokeyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
I really don't want to succumb to 6-7x Tene stacking to compete. I am dead set against it but if they aren't being fixed it's pretty much a must have.
Killing the game for me.
these enchantments aint even op it takes an offence slot, which is crit, power and arp. there is no problem with them.
im a guardian I have two sets of gear, timeless with tens in and Stewart gear with arp, and crit enchants. I do almost the same amount of dmg as I do with the timeless as I do with Stewart gear.
also HP effects the amount of dmg you do with this enchant in pvp. all classes are balanced. cw can kill quick from "range" OP right?, rouges can kill quick cqc Stealth F*** OP , DC can kill quick with top TREE Derps "range" OP no way?, and same with GWF OP aoe jumping fast sprinting impossible to catch... MY GF knights challenge BOTH people get buffed with double DMG OP YE? get over it && stop QQin about shizzle you have no idea about.
They dont hit for 1k and there is a cool down, no way they procced 20x in 2 sec like someone claimed. Unless the dude found some leet sploit bra.
I have screenshots taken from ACT parser showing 21+ procs happening instantly and each for 1100+ damage. It's not an exploit as i demonstrated because i also have screenshots of 21+ procs happening from three different players playing three different classes. It's just a bug where the tenebrous proc multiple times before going on ICD. Go back a couple pages in this thread and look at the screenshots i uploaded.
Well there is a easy fix. How about you can only wear 1 Tene? I honestly think that was what they intended to do. That a Tene was supposed to be just a weapon enchant not a offensive stack enchant. This would fix it correct if you can only wear 1 like how I imagine you are supposed to. To me just makes sense. Then we can move on to better things. The gameplay would be a lot better as well. Don't change the cooldown. maybe make the % 4-5 but just allow 1 greater tene to be worn period. /thread
Well there is a easy fix. How about you can only wear 1 Tene? I honestly think that was what they intended to do. That a Tene was supposed to be just a weapon enchant not a offensive stack enchant. This would fix it correct if you can only wear 1 like how I imagine you are supposed to. To me just makes sense. Then we can move on to better things. The gameplay would be a lot better as well. Don't change the cooldown. maybe make the % 4-5 but just allow 1 greater tene to be worn period. /thread
This cant and wont happen. So no point in recommending this. Also what would be the point of 1 tene enchant? Nothing.... It only works with synergies with multiple ones.
Like rigstorm said its based on leftover HP so you do less damage with it as your HP goes down... You can also output insane DPS with rank7+ arp/crit/or pwr enchants too... a greater costs WAY more than a rank 7... but does less damage in PVE? The ONLY reason it shines in PVP is because its burst > sustained damage. I do think the multi proc issue needs to be resolved and IF you want to nerf it harder... Turn it into a DoT (as I mentioned before and in other QQ tene posts).
Either way its an expensive enchant and typically 1 greater costs in the same price range as 3+ BiS pieces of gear so you can pretty much buy your full T1/T2 set for the same as 1 greater tene enchant so I would imagine they SHOULD be powerful?
YOu can also buy your BiS weapon for the cost of 1 greater, you can also buy a 110% mount for less than 1 greater... I think the ONLY things that cost more should be a greater soulforged enchant and your greater weapon enchant... So to do the FULL set up the cost is HUGE (roughly 5 mil?) so shouldnt the benefits be pretty good as well? Rank 8s cost about the same and can even out DPS them pretty easily on average in PVE.
Honestly I would rather choose a full rank 9 arp/crit/vorpal loadout (once tene gets fixed) but that costs WAY (double) more to set up than greater tene and takes a little more math to properly execute AND is arguably not as hard of burst damage.. I mean rank 9s are what +255 to each stat? so *6 = 1530 more stats wherever you want (over 3k more power for Gfs you could stack ontop of stalwarts putting you close to 20k power)? Thats a TON of damage that also doesnt diminish when your low on life..
Sure you might not get as much cheese... but youll consistently perform better I think but all in all a 6 greater tene build is probably the 2nd most expensive build to loadout and probably second in PVP performance too... Rank 8s will outperform in PVE and slightly under in pvp (maybe)... The cost seems worth the benefit...
I mean people that QQ about it, its almost like taking a character who JUSt hit 60 with leveling gear and pitting them up against a player who has full T2 gear and saying the T2 gear is overpowered...
Well regardless of if they bought it or farmed it or both... They still have better gear... A greater Tene build WILL and SHOULD CRUSH someone with rank 6 arp loadouts... Because it costs MULTIPLES more...
EDIT: Just for perspective, I just checked the AH. rank 6s are selling for 35-40k AD atm, While the cheapest Greater tene is 750k+... think about that. You can have 21 rank 6 enchants for the cost of 1 greater....
Compared to Rank 7s (160AD +) you can have roughly 5 rank 7s for the cost of 1 Greater tene...
I think most people agree that each tenebrous should not proc more than once each x seconds. If at least that is fixed this would give us an idea if they are OP or just OK. People that use tenebrous know that they can surpass the ICD, with either flurry, dots or fast attacks. Rogues "abusing" tenebrous will just stealth and "12 shot" you with daggers, Wizard will use ray of enfeeblement then retreat and let you die from their initial attack. GWF will flurry your face off during a stun. Those cheesy battle tactics are detrimental to PVP since they require 1) No skill 2) Anihilate the other in front before they can even retaliate 3) rely on in game purchase that would normally take someone playing for free month if not years. The argument of tenebrous defenders is usually if you know how to PVP you use them. The counter from the other side is you never need to learn to PVP if you have them. The resulting fact is if you dont use them you either have to be an outstanding PVPer to compete or you just suck. Is that the kind of game you want to play ?
I think most people agree that each tenebrous should not proc more than once each x seconds. If at least that is fixed this would give us an idea if they are OP or just OK. People that use tenebrous know that they can surpass the ICD, with either flurry, dots or fast attacks. Rogues "abusing" tenebrous will just stealth and "12 shot" you with daggers, Wizard will use ray of enfeeblement then retreat and let you die from their initial attack. GWF will flurry your face off during a stun. Those cheesy battle tactics are detrimental to PVP since they require 1) No skill 2) Anihilate the other in front before they can even retaliate 3) rely on in game purchase that would normally take someone playing for free month if not years. The argument of tenebrous defenders is usually if you know how to PVP you use them. The counter from the other side is you never need to learn to PVP if you have them. The resulting fact is if you dont use them you either have to be an outstanding PVPer to compete or you just suck. Is that the kind of game you want to play ?
hey I agree with this totally. I think there is a ton of luck factor in PVP and it comes down to who can cheese faster and who can get RNG crits.
I have been often thinking that gear needs to provide more defensive stats but then it throws PVE off balance. If you give more HP to all players, it gives tene a bigger advantage.. If you pull a WoW and add resilience, people complain because PVE players cant PVP without PVP gear...
There really is no easy fix to the problem... I think PVP is a very fast paced environment where even the best geared best PVP players can get cheesed and die instantly versus other not so geared not so great players.. That said, over time a good player will still stand out when he plays appropriately cheese build or not... Also, currently teamwork> heavy cheese so you can take 5 skilled ungeared players against 5 unskilled geared players and my money would be on the skill.
One of the issues with discrepancy that people cant and dont see is that MOST pvp is not premade versus premade. Its premade versus 1 afk + 2 skilled + 2 bad players. Or some combo of the two.
I have been in some PVP where I get squashed because I cant even cheese anyone without getting rocked first by CC or daze...
A good geared good player will DESTROY pugs via cheese builds... Just wait for Gaunt to come out where itll be more premade versus premade and I think skill will come into play more...
I think back to LvL 70 WoW on my Shaman where I could lightning bolt NS Chain lightning and shock someone to insta kill them... Arenas were very fast paced but a geared team didnt always = win. I think itll be the same here too... The SKILL will come down to who to kill at what time..
Comments
The problem with this is that 15seconds sounds fair for PVP but it completely BREAKS them for PVE... Greater tene enchants already < rank 7 arp/power for pure dps in PVE (See Rokuthy's guide).
So the only way (I can see) to balance them out and not gimp PVE would be that its a bleed or DoT. Even pure damage instead of necrotic damage would balance it some... but it would also break PVE.
Just for perspective you are proposing taking 900dps and dropping it to 360 DPS. Almost the same as taking all your greaters and putting in lessers for PVE comparison... Your damage would drop pretty hard...
I think the only way to mitigate this is turn it into a DoT and cap the stacks of Tene Dots at 6 or something... This will then force players to not run 7 tene (or even cap at 5?) set up AND removes the burst from that along with the constant application of the DoT.
If you make it a 6 second DoT capped at 6 stacks the Best you could do is have ALL 6 active every 6 seconds at 5 stacks. This means that DPS doesnt drop at all, but instead the Tenes would tick at 900/second rather than a big 5400 burst hit... But also just to put this in perspective as Envy has done, BUY glory POTIONS! You can mitigate this damage with 1 pot...
Capped at 5 stacks you get 750/sec for 6 seconds at MAX application..
This still gives viability in PVE/PVP and also helps PVP. Also makes MULTIPLE Tene builds in a group worthless since it is capped out... Heck even making it 10 stack cap like a rogue bleed could potentially make a HUGE difference since two people running 6 tene builds couldnt both get max benefit...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0tzkh30WXo
I unequipped all but one Tene. It procs, and procs again on my 2nd swing 5 seconds later.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
Thanks Envy. 5 seconds is pretty low... Thats almost 1100 DPS when full proced with 6 greater. That is great damage.
If it is only 5 seconds, it does seem almost too powerful for PVP purposes... How would you, if you would, recommend retooling the tene procs?
Currently tenebrous enchants are broken and can proc multiple times before going on their internal cooldown. I have screenshots of people getting 21 procs at the exact same moment with only 7 tenebrous enchants equipped. Even though getting 21 procs is somewhat rare, typically players with 6/7 tenebrous enchants will see an average of about 10 procs every 5 seconds. For some people that are stacking maximum hp, that's equivalent to 2,234 DPS from enchantments alone.
The first thing that needs to happen is they need to fix the multiple proc bug. This is by far the most important fix because currently, with some luck, players can do 22k damage the second they attack another player from tenebrous procs alone (yes, they can instantly kill another player with tenebrous procs because of this bug). Even after they fix this bug tenebrous enchants will still be too strong in PvP simply because of the burst damage they do. So the next logical fix would be to change the tenebrous proc to do damage over time (~700-1k damage over 5-10 seconds) so the burst is lowered. And lastly, if they want to be very generous and make this change as smooth as possible, they should make it free to remove a tenebrous enchantment from a piece of gear for ~2 weeks so players that decide they no longer want to keep the enchantments don't have to lose millions of AD removing them from their gear.
Did not know you could multi proc it, so maybe this impacts Envys cooldown vid?
do
I agree about the DoT thing and think it should remain 1/2/3% hp but have lesser tene do 1% over 2 seconds (150dps) normal tenes do 2% over 4 seconds (150dps) and greater tenes do 3% over 6 seconds. This way its the same damage per tick per enchant, greaters just do damage LONGER.
This doesnt change DPS for PVE purposes and still can be VERY powerful since you can stack a TON of tene DoTs on someone that will overtime melt them...
If they just remove the multiple proc issue I think it should be fine from there... its still a greater enchant that costs quite a bit of dough so I dont think it needs to be nerfed that bad, just fixed. I also think they should fix what it can proc off of...
Tene's do 3% current hp. If you have 1k hp left as you are being kill they proc for 3 damage.
Crazy op omg!!! Nerf all the things!!
They dont hit for 1k and there is a cool down, no way they procced 20x in 2 sec like someone claimed. Unless the dude found some leet sploit bra.
these enchantments aint even op it takes an offence slot, which is crit, power and arp. there is no problem with them.
im a guardian I have two sets of gear, timeless with tens in and Stewart gear with arp, and crit enchants. I do almost the same amount of dmg as I do with the timeless as I do with Stewart gear.
also HP effects the amount of dmg you do with this enchant in pvp. all classes are balanced. cw can kill quick from "range" OP right?, rouges can kill quick cqc Stealth F*** OP , DC can kill quick with top TREE Derps "range" OP no way?, and same with GWF OP aoe jumping fast sprinting impossible to catch... MY GF knights challenge BOTH people get buffed with double DMG OP YE? get over it && stop QQin about shizzle you have no idea about.
I have screenshots taken from ACT parser showing 21+ procs happening instantly and each for 1100+ damage. It's not an exploit as i demonstrated because i also have screenshots of 21+ procs happening from three different players playing three different classes. It's just a bug where the tenebrous proc multiple times before going on ICD. Go back a couple pages in this thread and look at the screenshots i uploaded.
This cant and wont happen. So no point in recommending this. Also what would be the point of 1 tene enchant? Nothing.... It only works with synergies with multiple ones.
Like rigstorm said its based on leftover HP so you do less damage with it as your HP goes down... You can also output insane DPS with rank7+ arp/crit/or pwr enchants too... a greater costs WAY more than a rank 7... but does less damage in PVE? The ONLY reason it shines in PVP is because its burst > sustained damage. I do think the multi proc issue needs to be resolved and IF you want to nerf it harder... Turn it into a DoT (as I mentioned before and in other QQ tene posts).
Either way its an expensive enchant and typically 1 greater costs in the same price range as 3+ BiS pieces of gear so you can pretty much buy your full T1/T2 set for the same as 1 greater tene enchant so I would imagine they SHOULD be powerful?
YOu can also buy your BiS weapon for the cost of 1 greater, you can also buy a 110% mount for less than 1 greater... I think the ONLY things that cost more should be a greater soulforged enchant and your greater weapon enchant... So to do the FULL set up the cost is HUGE (roughly 5 mil?) so shouldnt the benefits be pretty good as well? Rank 8s cost about the same and can even out DPS them pretty easily on average in PVE.
Honestly I would rather choose a full rank 9 arp/crit/vorpal loadout (once tene gets fixed) but that costs WAY (double) more to set up than greater tene and takes a little more math to properly execute AND is arguably not as hard of burst damage.. I mean rank 9s are what +255 to each stat? so *6 = 1530 more stats wherever you want (over 3k more power for Gfs you could stack ontop of stalwarts putting you close to 20k power)? Thats a TON of damage that also doesnt diminish when your low on life..
Sure you might not get as much cheese... but youll consistently perform better I think but all in all a 6 greater tene build is probably the 2nd most expensive build to loadout and probably second in PVP performance too... Rank 8s will outperform in PVE and slightly under in pvp (maybe)... The cost seems worth the benefit...
I mean people that QQ about it, its almost like taking a character who JUSt hit 60 with leveling gear and pitting them up against a player who has full T2 gear and saying the T2 gear is overpowered...
Well regardless of if they bought it or farmed it or both... They still have better gear... A greater Tene build WILL and SHOULD CRUSH someone with rank 6 arp loadouts... Because it costs MULTIPLES more...
EDIT: Just for perspective, I just checked the AH. rank 6s are selling for 35-40k AD atm, While the cheapest Greater tene is 750k+... think about that. You can have 21 rank 6 enchants for the cost of 1 greater....
Compared to Rank 7s (160AD +) you can have roughly 5 rank 7s for the cost of 1 Greater tene...
hey I agree with this totally. I think there is a ton of luck factor in PVP and it comes down to who can cheese faster and who can get RNG crits.
I have been often thinking that gear needs to provide more defensive stats but then it throws PVE off balance. If you give more HP to all players, it gives tene a bigger advantage.. If you pull a WoW and add resilience, people complain because PVE players cant PVP without PVP gear...
There really is no easy fix to the problem... I think PVP is a very fast paced environment where even the best geared best PVP players can get cheesed and die instantly versus other not so geared not so great players.. That said, over time a good player will still stand out when he plays appropriately cheese build or not... Also, currently teamwork> heavy cheese so you can take 5 skilled ungeared players against 5 unskilled geared players and my money would be on the skill.
One of the issues with discrepancy that people cant and dont see is that MOST pvp is not premade versus premade. Its premade versus 1 afk + 2 skilled + 2 bad players. Or some combo of the two.
I have been in some PVP where I get squashed because I cant even cheese anyone without getting rocked first by CC or daze...
A good geared good player will DESTROY pugs via cheese builds... Just wait for Gaunt to come out where itll be more premade versus premade and I think skill will come into play more...
I think back to LvL 70 WoW on my Shaman where I could lightning bolt NS Chain lightning and shock someone to insta kill them... Arenas were very fast paced but a geared team didnt always = win. I think itll be the same here too... The SKILL will come down to who to kill at what time..
/endrant