As quitegonejin stated above, you can get more procs than you even have enchantments sloted. So, 7 tenebrous, for whatever reason, procs 9 times often (before going on ICD) so i was averaging the damage of 9 procs. At 720 damage per proc (typical proc damage) that's 6,480 damage or 925 damage per sloted tenebrous. Damage multipliers seem to also affect them (not sure which ones in particular). I run ACT parser whenever i PvP and i see 920 damage tene procs by CWs (with only ~23k hp) very often, that's 1182 damage per sloted tenebrous. And yes, i see 9 procs in the log at the exact same moment for 920 damage.
Also, the health pot example is actually pretty funny because the health pot has a 2 minute cooldown and the 7 tenebrous have a 5 second cooldown and the 7 tenebrous do more damage than the health potion even heals.
One last thing, you can get 7 offensive slots, not 6. Neck, 2x ring, belt, shirt, weapon, offhand.
I said Guardian Fighters in particular only get 6 slots. Off hands are defense slots. Also, It doesn't even make sense for a 23k CW to proc a 920 Tene considering 3% of 23k is only 690. Your post isn't adding up.
I said Guardian Fighters in particular only get 6 slots. Off hands are defense slots. Also, It doesn't even make sense for a 23k CW to proc a 920 Tene considering 3% of 23k is only 690. Your post isn't adding up.
Ray of enfeeblement increases the damage of the proc i believe or some other damage multiplier control wizards have. I know you know how to use ACT, so run the parser next time you PvP and then look at damage taken for yourself, find the entry for 'tenebrous', click on it, then sort by top damage and you will see tons of entries for ~920 damage by control wizards.
Ray of enfeeblement increases the damage of the proc i believe or some other damage multiplier control wizards have. I know you know how to use ACT, so run the parser next time you PvP and then look at damage taken for yourself, find the entry for 'tenebrous', click on it, then sort by top damage and you will see tons of entries for ~920 damage by control wizards.
Tene proc damage cant be increased by skills. It's necrotic damage. Mine tick for 594 each, and still tick for 594 with Knight's Challenge up.
Tene proc damage cant be increased by skills. It's necrotic damage. Mine tick for 594 each, and still tick for 594 with Knight's Challenge up.
It's not all damage increasing skills, just one of the control wizard ones (and i'm not sure which one it is). I've only ever seen a CW doing 920 damage ticks despite only having 23k hp. I'll be sure to take a screen-capture of ACT next time i see it in the log.
It's not all damage increasing skills, just one of the control wizard ones (and i'm not sure which one it is). I've only ever seen a CW doing 920 damage ticks despite only having 23k hp. I'll be sure to take a screen-capture of ACT next time i see it in the log.
No tenebrous enchants do true dmg.
Not reduced or increased by anything.
It's part of what makes them so stupid IMO.
It just gets better and better the tankier you and your target are lol.
Armor pen is already outclassing Tenebrous in pve for a Control Wizard.
And we have not seen 6x rank 9 radiants/azures/darks in people yet, so stop making things up. Greater Tenebrous is cheap. i have 6 my self on my CW and it will cost you around 4-5 mil.
Armor pen is already outclassing Tenebrous in pve for a Control Wizard.
And we have not seen 6x rank 9 radiants/azures/darks in people yet, so stop making things up. Greater Tenebrous is cheap. i have 6 my self on my CW and it will cost you around 4-5 mil.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say rank 9 stat enchants are not going to do much of anything if you already have optimized stats.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
That would be a 20k crit? and seems like the majority of tenes would have to proc at the same time AND be timed right for this and I would be curious how much crit he does have if he is tank spec? I also wonder if this was on a clothy or a GF cause thats makes a difference too. And how much of this damage was from tene enchants? Because even if they ALL procced that would be what? 8k damage? where is the other 12k coming from?
Also thats only if they ALL proc, which realistically maybe only 4-5 proced for that hit, meaning only about 1/4th of that damage was from tene enchants... so even without them your math = 15k crit with flourish.... thats still a TON of damage...
Actually, they ALL proc on the first or second hit. It's not a 15% or 25% to proc it's just stupid wording on the developers part, and like others have said they sometimes proc multiple times ignoring the internal cooldown.
I said Guardian Fighters in particular only get 6 slots. Off hands are defense slots. Also, It doesn't even make sense for a 23k CW to proc a 920 Tene considering 3% of 23k is only 690. Your post isn't adding up.
You are a terribly nonconstructive poster who just says "no that's wrong" way too often.
"I have a screen capture of parser proof of this happening"
Some tanks at least are going arm pen instead of Tene. More consistent burst. Not many players have greater tene or stacked for that matter. I do agree I don't want it to be end game though kinda stupid.
I'm not sure why you always have to take a derogatory tone with everyone as if you're the singular authority of all things Neverwinter. People certainly appreciate your contributions and knowledge on these forums, but there's no need for the unsolicited hostilities.
Anyways, as promised, i did some games with ACT parser running and took some screenshots for you:
If you look at the time stamp on each one of these screenshots you'll see that this isn't some rare occurrence. The first two instances happened only a minute apart and the third one 6 minutes later (all in the same game). I would say that probably half the time he's getting at least 2-6 more procs than he even has tenebrous enchantments equipped.
These two are from a different player and a different class.
And this one, 21 procs within 2 seconds, from a different player and different class. So it's obvious that this is a bug with the enchantment and not a bug with some classes being able to proc these more than others.
I didn't observe the other bug i was talking about where the enchantments do more damage than they should be doing based on the players HP. But i have seen it before and it always involved a CW. I'll keep an eye out for it and be sure to screenshot and post it when i do see it.
Now maybe people will understand why some people believe the tenebrous enchantments are a little bit over the top in PvP. Perhaps if they worked as intended (~10% chance to proc with a true 5 second ICD) then there would be less of an issue here, but currently the RNG-burst from tenebrous can be borderline absurd at times.
I'm not sure why you always have to take a derogatory tone with everyone as if you're the singular authority of all things Neverwinter. People certainly appreciate your contributions and knowledge on these forums, but there's no need for the unsolicited hostilities. .
You have a very polite way of calling him out, honestly, Envy went total D bag as soon as someone attacked Tene's and mentioned them as unbalanced. Not sure why... and yeah, those numbers are sadly not surprising.
What makes Tenebrous ridiculous is how severe the DR in this game is. Why would I put anything else in offensive slots when tenebrous only becomes inferior for AOE situations (and who actually cares about AOE damage)? The fact that they're staggeringly broken in PvP and cheap is just a bonus.
I feel like Tenebrous create an odd gameplay dynamic where they're nothing like any other stat, so they're either going to be hugely ridiculous or completely useless. I don't think you can really balance them without significantly changing the mechanic.
Tene's really need a nerf. Stacking 7 of them and proccing all every few seconds is just ridiculous. In pve i don't know how good they are, in pvp it's just boring.
I encountered a wizard stacking 7 of these, i was at 25% hp before i even got close to him. Anyone claiming this is totally fine does not want a balanced game and should go hide under a rock somewhere.
malkavierMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
The only CW powers or feats that I can think of offhand from looking at my CW, to affect Tene, would be the Renegade tabbed double-RoE (with full Arcane stacks applied pre-RoE) or the Thaumaturge tabbed RoE + CoI combo due to the final feat in the Thaumaturge tree.
Both ways push enemy targets to zero or even negative mitigation, and since ArPen & those debuffs seem to be calculated before other modifiers, could possibly work in tandem with the above two methods to affect Tenebrous. Damage types that "ignore" resists such as Radiant and Necrotic, seemingly only ignore modifiers to the Defense stat that come AFTER they are applied in damage calculation. This could be a programming error in that since ArPen and CW mitigation debuffs are appearing to be calculated before any damage types are applied, the Tenebrous damage hits for more than you might expect from a CW compared to a GWF.
How Cryptic trolls the entire NWO playerbase: 9200 GS listed for CN, implying anyone who needs more has no skill.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You have a very polite way of calling him out, honestly, Envy went total D bag as soon as someone attacked Tene's and mentioned them as unbalanced. Not sure why... and yeah, those numbers are sadly not surprising.
Its very simple to understand why. He is fully aware of how they work. He just doesn't want them nerfed.
I really don't want to succumb to 6-7x Tene stacking to compete. I am dead set against it but if they aren't being fixed it's pretty much a must have.
Killing the game for me.
Complaining about class imbalance is one thing, complaining about someone having better gear than you is just pathetic. There is nothing stopping any player from getting an enchant, everyone can do it. It isn't class specific or class focused, anyone can make them, anyone can buy them.
If you don't like that people are killing you because they have better gear, then get better gear yourself. Otherwise go play something else, I suggest Guild Wars 2 if you want pvp that isn't effected by gear.
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Its very simple to understand why. He is fully aware of how they work. He just doesn't want them nerfed.
Honestly I dont think its that. Tene is a strong build. But so are others. If you look up Rokuthy's guide he doesnt use any of them and will outdps/tank a greater tene build. Tene builds are very strong in PVP however, they have HUGE limitations.
I currently have 4 greater tenes and 2 regular ones. While I do well in PVP (as I should for my gear), It isnt the end all be all of PVP builds. Tene's can only proc every 10 seconds and once they do each greater tene is 900 flat damage. They do proc very often, BUT, it isnt game breaking at all.
at 6 greater Tenes at 900 damage thats 5400 damage, 99% of the time they do NOT all proc at once, they usually proc over a few hits so I might get a 2 (1k cleaves off) and I might get two procs. thats 3800 damage. While that is alot, thats two tenes that cant proc for another 10 seconds. The tene builds are good because its burst damage and people are not prepared for the burst potential it has. It is fairly easy to counter when played appropriately against and if you stacked say armor pen instead with the same AD investment you can get rank 7s (about the equiv of greater tenes)
185*6 = 1116 additional armor pen. That is a decent amount more flat damage and will get you much harder crits (which I think is what the real issue is here)
From personal experience its not the tenes that are overpowered its the abilities+tenes that are overpowered but tene builds are somewhat pigeon holed into PVP because they are not even close to as good for PVE purposes.
Without Tenes on my GF under the right conditions I can easily get crits over 15k+. It happens fairly often and I dont even have a ton of crit. The tene builds are not the issue. I think its an issue on what they can proc off of, and also an issue of crit damage since good crits seem to 1 shot almost no matter what class/spec you are.
Tene's can only proc every 10 seconds and once they do each greater tene is 900 flat damage.
Tene's can proc about once every 6 seconds. Just tested on the dummies to make sure they didn't ninja nerf this. And mine almost always proc all at once - Plague Fire weapon enchantment helps to make sure that happens.
Tene's can proc about once every 6 seconds. Just tested on the dummies to make sure they didn't ninja nerf this. And mine almost always proc all at once - Plague Fire weapon enchantment helps to make sure that happens.
My question is, how do you know its the same tene that is proccing? I used to think its was 6 seconds, but was told it was more like 10 seconds and I have greater plague btw...
So to truly know the CD on it, you would have to have all 6 proc in < 6 seconds and then the "first" one to proc at roughly the 7th second or so. Do you see what I am saying?
If you get 2-3 to proc at second 3, and you have the 4-5th proc at second 5, that 6ths could be proccing at second 6 etc. I guess the real way to test would be how many procs in 1 min do you get, then you can have the average proc rate?
I have been trying to find this info out because it plays a big deal... According to Rokuthy, he has said its close to 10 seconds and during PVE damage testing less than 3% of his damage was from Tenes which cause him to switch back to arp/pwr/crit.
My question is, how do you know its the same tene that is proccing? I used to think its was 6 seconds, but was told it was more like 10 seconds and I have greater plague btw...
I just ran another test to check. All 6 procced, then 6 seconds later all 6 procced again, so they definitely can do so every ~6 seconds. This is pretty consistent for me. I'm also using greater tenebrouses - not sure if the lesser versions proc at the same rate.
I just ran another test to check. All 6 procced, then 6 seconds later all 6 procced again, so they definitely can do so every ~6 seconds. This is pretty consistent for me. I'm also using greater tenebrouses - not sure if the lesser versions proc at the same rate.
Wow that IS a high proc rate.. I didnt even realize its that often. So with 6 greaters it adds roughly (900*6=5400 raw damage / 6 seconds = 900DPS?)
Thats much much higher than the math for every 10 seconds coming in at 540 DPS..
I wonder if the best way to retool these is to turn them into a bleed or, into regular damage instead of necrotic damage...
Wow that IS a high proc rate.. I didnt even realize its that often. So with 6 greaters it adds roughly (900*6=5400 raw damage / 6 seconds = 900DPS?)
Thats much much higher than the math for every 10 seconds coming in at 540 DPS..
I wonder if the best way to retool these is to turn them into a bleed or, into regular damage instead of necrotic damage...
I think increasing the cooldown would help balance them. Maybe ~15 seconds? That would still allow them to do some good burst frontend damage while not reproccing again in the same exchange.
Comments
I said Guardian Fighters in particular only get 6 slots. Off hands are defense slots. Also, It doesn't even make sense for a 23k CW to proc a 920 Tene considering 3% of 23k is only 690. Your post isn't adding up.
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Ray of enfeeblement increases the damage of the proc i believe or some other damage multiplier control wizards have. I know you know how to use ACT, so run the parser next time you PvP and then look at damage taken for yourself, find the entry for 'tenebrous', click on it, then sort by top damage and you will see tons of entries for ~920 damage by control wizards.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Tene proc damage cant be increased by skills. It's necrotic damage. Mine tick for 594 each, and still tick for 594 with Knight's Challenge up.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
It's not all damage increasing skills, just one of the control wizard ones (and i'm not sure which one it is). I've only ever seen a CW doing 920 damage ticks despite only having 23k hp. I'll be sure to take a screen-capture of ACT next time i see it in the log.
No tenebrous enchants do true dmg.
Not reduced or increased by anything.
It's part of what makes them so stupid IMO.
It just gets better and better the tankier you and your target are lol.
Because Tenebrous isn't good for aoe.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say rank 9 stat enchants are not going to do much of anything if you already have optimized stats.
Actually, they ALL proc on the first or second hit. It's not a 15% or 25% to proc it's just stupid wording on the developers part, and like others have said they sometimes proc multiple times ignoring the internal cooldown.
"I have a screen capture of parser proof of this happening"
"that doesn't make sense to me, you are wrong"
Durrrr.
Maybe people should stop being wrong so often?
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
I'm not sure why you always have to take a derogatory tone with everyone as if you're the singular authority of all things Neverwinter. People certainly appreciate your contributions and knowledge on these forums, but there's no need for the unsolicited hostilities.
Anyways, as promised, i did some games with ACT parser running and took some screenshots for you:
20 procs within one second for 1118 damage each for 22,360 total damage.
14 procs at the exact same moment for 1117 damage each for 15,638 total
damage.
21 procs at the exact same moment for 922-1058 damage each for ~20,500 total damage.
14 procs within 2 seconds for 1105-1118 damage each for 15,561 total damage.
12 procs within 2 seconds for 1118 damage each for 13,416 total damage.
If you look at the time stamp on each one of these screenshots you'll see that this isn't some rare occurrence. The first two instances happened only a minute apart and the third one 6 minutes later (all in the same game). I would say that probably half the time he's getting at least 2-6 more procs than he even has tenebrous enchantments equipped.
10 procs within one second for 1009 damage each for 10,090 total damage.
9 procs within 2 seconds for 997 damage each for 8,973 total damage.
These two are from a different player and a different class.
And this one, 21 procs within 2 seconds, from a different player and different class. So it's obvious that this is a bug with the enchantment and not a bug with some classes being able to proc these more than others.
I didn't observe the other bug i was talking about where the enchantments do more damage than they should be doing based on the players HP. But i have seen it before and it always involved a CW. I'll keep an eye out for it and be sure to screenshot and post it when i do see it.
Now maybe people will understand why some people believe the tenebrous enchantments are a little bit over the top in PvP. Perhaps if they worked as intended (~10% chance to proc with a true 5 second ICD) then there would be less of an issue here, but currently the RNG-burst from tenebrous can be borderline absurd at times.
-Lord Steroidz
I feel like Tenebrous create an odd gameplay dynamic where they're nothing like any other stat, so they're either going to be hugely ridiculous or completely useless. I don't think you can really balance them without significantly changing the mechanic.
I encountered a wizard stacking 7 of these, i was at 25% hp before i even got close to him. Anyone claiming this is totally fine does not want a balanced game and should go hide under a rock somewhere.
Maybe you should take your head out of your a**.
Both ways push enemy targets to zero or even negative mitigation, and since ArPen & those debuffs seem to be calculated before other modifiers, could possibly work in tandem with the above two methods to affect Tenebrous. Damage types that "ignore" resists such as Radiant and Necrotic, seemingly only ignore modifiers to the Defense stat that come AFTER they are applied in damage calculation. This could be a programming error in that since ArPen and CW mitigation debuffs are appearing to be calculated before any damage types are applied, the Tenebrous damage hits for more than you might expect from a CW compared to a GWF.
Its very simple to understand why. He is fully aware of how they work. He just doesn't want them nerfed.
Complaining about class imbalance is one thing, complaining about someone having better gear than you is just pathetic. There is nothing stopping any player from getting an enchant, everyone can do it. It isn't class specific or class focused, anyone can make them, anyone can buy them.
If you don't like that people are killing you because they have better gear, then get better gear yourself. Otherwise go play something else, I suggest Guild Wars 2 if you want pvp that isn't effected by gear.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Honestly I dont think its that. Tene is a strong build. But so are others. If you look up Rokuthy's guide he doesnt use any of them and will outdps/tank a greater tene build. Tene builds are very strong in PVP however, they have HUGE limitations.
I currently have 4 greater tenes and 2 regular ones. While I do well in PVP (as I should for my gear), It isnt the end all be all of PVP builds. Tene's can only proc every 10 seconds and once they do each greater tene is 900 flat damage. They do proc very often, BUT, it isnt game breaking at all.
at 6 greater Tenes at 900 damage thats 5400 damage, 99% of the time they do NOT all proc at once, they usually proc over a few hits so I might get a 2 (1k cleaves off) and I might get two procs. thats 3800 damage. While that is alot, thats two tenes that cant proc for another 10 seconds. The tene builds are good because its burst damage and people are not prepared for the burst potential it has. It is fairly easy to counter when played appropriately against and if you stacked say armor pen instead with the same AD investment you can get rank 7s (about the equiv of greater tenes)
185*6 = 1116 additional armor pen. That is a decent amount more flat damage and will get you much harder crits (which I think is what the real issue is here)
From personal experience its not the tenes that are overpowered its the abilities+tenes that are overpowered but tene builds are somewhat pigeon holed into PVP because they are not even close to as good for PVE purposes.
Without Tenes on my GF under the right conditions I can easily get crits over 15k+. It happens fairly often and I dont even have a ton of crit. The tene builds are not the issue. I think its an issue on what they can proc off of, and also an issue of crit damage since good crits seem to 1 shot almost no matter what class/spec you are.
Tene's can proc about once every 6 seconds. Just tested on the dummies to make sure they didn't ninja nerf this. And mine almost always proc all at once - Plague Fire weapon enchantment helps to make sure that happens.
"i saw u first, i got skills, u dont"
Im getting my popcorn.
My question is, how do you know its the same tene that is proccing? I used to think its was 6 seconds, but was told it was more like 10 seconds and I have greater plague btw...
So to truly know the CD on it, you would have to have all 6 proc in < 6 seconds and then the "first" one to proc at roughly the 7th second or so. Do you see what I am saying?
If you get 2-3 to proc at second 3, and you have the 4-5th proc at second 5, that 6ths could be proccing at second 6 etc. I guess the real way to test would be how many procs in 1 min do you get, then you can have the average proc rate?
I have been trying to find this info out because it plays a big deal... According to Rokuthy, he has said its close to 10 seconds and during PVE damage testing less than 3% of his damage was from Tenes which cause him to switch back to arp/pwr/crit.
I just ran another test to check. All 6 procced, then 6 seconds later all 6 procced again, so they definitely can do so every ~6 seconds. This is pretty consistent for me. I'm also using greater tenebrouses - not sure if the lesser versions proc at the same rate.
Wow that IS a high proc rate.. I didnt even realize its that often. So with 6 greaters it adds roughly (900*6=5400 raw damage / 6 seconds = 900DPS?)
Thats much much higher than the math for every 10 seconds coming in at 540 DPS..
I wonder if the best way to retool these is to turn them into a bleed or, into regular damage instead of necrotic damage...
I think increasing the cooldown would help balance them. Maybe ~15 seconds? That would still allow them to do some good burst frontend damage while not reproccing again in the same exchange.