I am not ok with us doing equal dmg though. I am squishier than the GWF and do not have as many control abilities as a CW.
I am reserving my judgement until the patch but Cryptic has been so incompetent thus far, I have zero faith in them to do it right.
Big +1 this. I just knew that Cryptic was going to jump the gun and overnerf classes (not just TR). They're inexperienced and don't seem to know how to sort valuable feedback from qq complaints yet. From everything I've read, Duelist's Flurry was seriously overnerfed. Like 20-25% overall TR damage in a dungeon nerfed. Also with Deadly Momentum actually giving far more crit severity than intended, our damage was going to go down a significant amount without any other changes. It also needs to be considered that encounter design in this game heavily does not favor melee DPS. If TR's didn't bring great damage, they probably wouldn't be considered for a dungeon spot.
I will probably reroll to the new ranged class if I can't beat GF's and GWF's come next patch. They have more utility and can actually tank, Rogues are pure DPS. If a pure DPS class isn't at the top, game devs are doing something wrong.
Ice knife can be dodged, deflected and blockedSE cannot be dodged (I certainly don't remember seeing it being deflected or blocked either, although I don't use it that much on my rogue) once it starts to cast and it doesn't even matter how far the target runs.
That really isn't true - it can be both blocked and dodged and if the target runs too far away, it will miss. So you couldn't be more wrong there; play your rogue more. That said SE damage was too high and I'm glad it's getting nerfed so hopefully people will quit crying about Rogues. Their "qq" got us nerfed in PVE as well which really wasn't necessary.
0
samuraikingsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Ice knife can be dodged, deflected and blocked and only does its insane damage when you are debuffed with ray of enfeeblement (which is getting a giant nerf bat from the patch).
SE cannot be dodged (I certainly don't remember seeing it being deflected or blocked either, although I don't use it that much on my rogue) once it starts to cast and it doesn't even matter how far the target runs.
Both can be dodged but the TR's jump is easier to spot. Both do about the same dmg. People geared and spec'd for PvP on CW do about 15k noncrit and 30k on a crit. This is at full health. SE usually does 8k noncrit and 15k crit at full health. It can not and never has been able to one-shot like Ice Knife does AT full health. At about half health a TR can pop SE on a person to do around 15k non crit and 30k crit.
Anyway, now that you understand and know the information about both of them, we don't care about the PvP nerf. We care about its' nerf in PvE. Anyone who used SE at full health on a person was using it wrong to begin with. Its' proper use is for finishing off a PvE mob, like an Erineyes before it heals. We were able to pop up to 50k crit when it was around 30% health. Otherwise we would use Lurker's Assault. It has a situational, but very good use in PvE.
If we are going to talk about PvP though, once again, I could care less that SE got nerfed there, it should have. The nerf should have not been done in PvE though. They should be separate. But let's not pretend that Ice Knife wasn't strong as hell, and when you couple it with multiple stuns that CW gets, it becomes even stronger. I am used to PvP though and didn't mind it how it was. If a CW or TR popped a dialy to kill me, that was fine. It was a daily and I could dodge it if I was paying attention. You nerf skills because they are imbalanced, not because most players are unskilled and can't dodge them when it IS possible to.
Foundry Name: "Wolframs Last Stand" (@Holythirst)
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
I play as a saboteur rogue.I dont use bleeds,and still i easily top the dps meters.So no big deal.
As about Shocking Execution,they decreased the base damage,not the total damage.
So everything is fine,no worries.And honestly,yes we are overpowered.Rest classes should have rerolled long ago.
But guys,this is still beta,many things will change.Dont cry every single time they change something:)
-Trickster Rogue: Master Duelist's Long Dagger may no longer be equipped in the off hand. Players with it equipped will have it dropped into the Overflow Bag on the next map change after logging in.
It's sad how many people are abusing this in PvP right now.
It's sad how many people are abusing this in PvP right now.
Yea, going against someone with 2 Perfect Vorpals/2 Greater Plague Fires or one of each is a little too much. Having a TR at 200% crit severity while in stealth makes them one-shot from stealth with lashing blade.
...I'm glad it's getting nerfed so hopefully people will quit crying about Rogues. Their "qq" got us nerfed in PVE as well which really wasn't necessary.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
Are you joking? You think people will stop whining? This is just the beginning. This will change absolutely nothing.
The complaints and nerfs are going to keep rolling in until the new ranged class is released. Then, the attention will slide off us for a while.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
They leave Wizards' Ice Knife in tact, which is basically a ranged version of Shocking Execution that can be dodged, but you only have 1 second to roll and pray lag / ping doesn't own you.
No you can't. I've tested it with both the stealthed and non-stealthed version
You are correct, Se cant be avoided with ITC. It can be blocked, and it doesnt have that long range so players can run away from it. It also have quite a long animation so you get interupted by CC quite often.
I just tested rogue in test server for spider t2, and honestly I feel that any boss that heals makes rogue completely useless now. We couldn't even get past first form, despite I had 10k bleed (true damage) ticking on the boss, it just wasn't enough to over damage the healing. Also I feel like you must build decent amount of defense now for rogue, if you're going with 1 cleric only. The astral shield not up 100% hurts a lot for rogues, getting one shot a lot of times. Also what I noticed is, despite they increased the tick time between the bleed, they kept the time the bleed stays on the mob the same, meaning you still have only 10 seconds time to renew the bleed despite not being able to stay on target half as much as before. I admit this was spider cave, which is probably one of the hardest bosses for rogues to deal with, with all that blinking and exploding mobs.
Also something I noticed is, that sometimes you get some of the aggro on you, so you almost need 100% stealth time to avoid damage, which in spider is one of the hardest. I am guessing that after the patch, most people stop playing rogue, because I honestly believe it is the hardest role in the game.
These are my initial thoughts on test rogue. I do admit that my gear is pretty bad for the rogue, since I don't really main it, but I predict a lot of rogues will stop playing rogue after the patch comes.
I just tested rogue in test server for spider t2, and honestly I feel that any boss that heals makes rogue completely useless now. We couldn't even get past first form, despite I had 10k bleed (true damage) ticking on the boss, it just wasn't enough to over damage the healing. Also I feel like you must build decent amount of defense now for rogue, if you're going with 1 cleric only. The astral shield not up 100% hurts a lot for rogues, getting one shot a lot of times. Also what I noticed is, despite they increased the tick time between the bleed, they kept the time the bleed stays on the mob the same, meaning you still have only 10 seconds time to renew the bleed despite not being able to stay on target half as much as before. I admit this was spider cave, which is probably one of the hardest bosses for rogues to deal with, with all that blinking and exploding mobs.
Also something I noticed is, that sometimes you get some of the aggro on you, so you almost need 100% stealth time to avoid damage, which in spider is one of the hardest. I am guessing that after the patch, most people stop playing rogue, because I honestly believe it is the hardest role in the game.
These are my initial thoughts on test rogue. I do admit that my gear is pretty bad for the rogue, since I don't really main it, but I predict a lot of rogues will stop playing rogue after the patch comes.
This actually makes the TR sound fun to me.
Have mained a TR since day 1 and tested over classes, I found the TR the most UNFUN class to play.
Unleash Combo.....hold mouse button till dead......move on.....
This actually makes me want to play the TR more often now.
Spiders is a hard boss for TR like you said tho.
Would you test vs Spell boss? i honestly find this guy to be beyond easy.
as for less people playing the TR, good, thats GOOD news. i would love to see classes evened out a little with players.
This actually makes the TR sound fun to me.
Have mained a TR since day 1 and tested over classes, I found the TR the most UNFUN class to play.
Unleash Combo.....hold mouse button till dead......move on.....
This actually makes me want to play the TR more often now.
Spiders is a hard boss for TR like you said tho.
Would you test vs Spell boss? i honestly find this guy to be beyond easy.
as for less people playing the TR, good, thats GOOD news. i would love to see classes evened out a little with players.
Spell boss easy? no kidding, all the bosses in this game are cake, 4 second long animation attacks and huge telegraphs etc. However, I kinda feel like they overnerfed the TRs and the other classes BIG TIME. Duelist flurry accounts for like 80% of our damage in PVE and they basically destroyed it. It's kinda hard for me to even spend the time to log on and grind DD's anymore knowing that the developers are so incompetent and not to mention there's no end game.. nothing to do at all.
Yep, tested on the test server. TR's pve damage is nerfed beyond comprehension. 25% to 30% less damage compared to current live server with same gears. Impossible to beat out GWF and GF in terms of damage with all end game gears. GWF and GF with Greater Plague Fire > TR with Greater Plague Fire OR Greater Vorpal. I guarantee this new patch will make parties take two GWFs or two GFs instead of a rogue. More survivability and more damage with GWF and GF = bye bye TR.
Glad I stopped playing this game consistently. Oh, if they are willing to nerf TR this hard because of a few whiners on the forum, imagine what they will do to the other classes when all the TRs starts crying?
0
samuraikingsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yep, tested on the test server. TR's pve damage is nerfed beyond comprehension. 25% to 30% less damage compared to current live server with same gears. Impossible to beat out GWF and GF in terms of damage with all end game gears. GWF and GF with Greater Plague Fire > TR with Greater Plague Fire OR Greater Vorpal. I guarantee this new patch will make parties take two GWFs or two GFs instead of a rogue. More survivability and more damage with GWF and GF = bye bye TR.
Glad I stopped playing this game consistently. Oh, if they are willing to nerf TR this hard because of a few whiners on the forum, imagine what they will do to the other classes when all the TRs starts crying?
This is exactly what I thought would happen and I doubt they will change it before the 20th. I am just glad I leveled everything but GF to 60 and geared it. My TR and DC will just be not used, ever. GWF isn't terrible and I like CW, so I guess I will be fine. Still not happy, because TR was my main, but such is the way of most mmorpg developers, can't get **** right at all.
Foundry Name: "Wolframs Last Stand" (@Holythirst)
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Whats even worse is that other classes will say TR is fine now becouse:
1. They cant kill their class in PvP
2. They cant outdps their class in PvE
This same f-king thing happens in every MMO by whining a-holes that dont know how they play their classes.
a nice nail to the coffin for me, unless the archer is properly done (it can take the place of the TR as a top single target DPS, no fuss no muss)
0
discountbobMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited June 2013
Any chance they'll offer us a free respec? I dunno how Cryptic handles that kind of thing. Since it's F2P, I'm doubting it ... but that sure would be nice.
Any chance they'll offer us a free respec? I dunno how Cryptic handles that kind of thing. Since it's F2P, I'm doubting it ... but that sure would be nice.
They will offer a free respec once the patch goes live on the 20th but no respec on the preview server, which makes it counterproductive testing the new changes.
Whats even worse is that other classes will say TR is fine now becouse:
1. They cant kill their class in PvP
2. They cant outdps their class in PvE
This same f-king thing happens in every MMO by whining a-holes that dont know how they play their classes.
Still highest single target dps in the game is TR, just as intended, for l33t adds and boss fights they are perfect. All that is changed is u wont see TR top overall dps in the end of a dungeon, cause it was dumb for single target class to outdamage AOE classes by 50% in overall dmg. TR is still single target dmg king.
Carnage TR Dragon shard - retired? hell yea it's retired along with Nevewinter
I wish we could all live in fairy world where this was true.
U overreact. In truth we got maybe 25% dmg nerf yet ST dmg is still highest. The only big nerf is that I now can't run Perfect vorpal and GP at the same time
Carnage TR Dragon shard - retired? hell yea it's retired along with Nevewinter
If you were reading the thread, or understood how our dps works at all, you'd know that we got somewhere in the range of a 50% damage nerf or higher. Our bleed, which is ~80% of our single target dps, got nerfed by ~33%. Also we lost 60% crit severity which is worth around 30% or so dps, maybe more. So ya, calling it "just" a 25% dps loss is uninformed and wrong.
U overreact. In truth we got maybe 25% dmg nerf yet ST dmg is still highest. The only big nerf is that I now can't run Perfect vorpal and GP at the same time
Read what solsol1337 said. Multiple people have already reported from the test realm and said that GWF and GF are out damaging them. It's not a matter of single-target vs AoE either. It's a matter of balance. TR and CW are the squishiest DPS classes. A CW has a bunch of control, and more importantly a ranged class. A GF is a tank, it should never outdmg us, dps build or not. And a GWF is a hybrid as far as balance. It should do less dmg than a TR but also take less dmg. Not to mention an easy to charge and decent length pop of Unstoppable.
For balance, we should be doing the most dps at the end of a dungeon, "Single-target King" or not, which we aren't. The dmg cut is by more than half. I am not sure the severity of the CW changes, it may actually be on par or lower than TR. Either way, as far as balance goes, it shouldn't be TR on the bottom. Now don't get me wrong, I have every class at 60 and geared except for GF. I play them all and I clearly see a TR is too strong. It shouldn't do 100% more dmg than all the other classes, but the nerf that has been done makes us actually do less dmg than all other DPS classes, that is more than a 100% dmg cut.
If you understand that, then cool. You get it. And if you are still trying to argue, there is no point in me responding a second time. People have tested in the test realm. If you still disagree you are just saying a Tanky DPS, a Tank and potentially a Ranged Control class should all rightfully do more dmg than a squishy melee and that is just not right.
Foundry Name: "Wolframs Last Stand" (@Holythirst)
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
pfeh, if it really turns out to be this bad i might just respec my TR into a pure pvp setup and go make whiners cry some moar. really, pvp is what made them whine the most and is where TR is pretty much untouched as SE kind of sucks anyway. (aside from removing the broken offhand which they should have actually done faster).
as a side note: to people that say ice knife isn't more powerful than SE... let's assume for a moment it isn't (which is not true), it still charges up more than twice as fast as most rogues will charge their daily. i mean really, i also have a cleric and the lvl 60 daily hammer is better than SE by far imho.
Still highest single target dps in the game is TR, just as intended, for l33t adds and boss fights they are perfect. All that is changed is u wont see TR top overall dps in the end of a dungeon, cause it was dumb for single target class to outdamage AOE classes by 50% in overall dmg. TR is still single target dmg king.
No way you gonna outdps a GOOD Cw as a TR in castle never.
0
neverasherMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
i'm not one for numbers, but the most i can get the bleed to tick for on a dummy is 12k the test server. the dummy always dies on live but i can tell it hits for more on live. i'm using plaguefire though and they nerfed the hell out of it. need to get some vorpal.
No way you gonna outdps a GOOD Cw as a TR in castle never.
yep - run cn with our premade - cw kicks adds down when possible, nukes / perma singus them into corners and since we don't pull bosses back to abuse (which would be a big dps advantage for tr) there are plenty of adds during all 4 boss fights (take numbers before or after entering dracolich fight - doesn't matter if he kicks or nukes during final fight) a good cw is ahead by a good amount - but they are rare like good trs, dcs, gwfs and gfs
p.s. and if you take a look how they killed plague fire enchantment it says all about how to engage balance difficulties...
Plague Fire enchant: The Defense debuff portion of the enchantment's proc no longer stacks when applied by multiple players.
Plague Fire enchant: The Defense debuff no longer reduces the target's overall Damage Resistance, but instead properly reduces the Defense stat. The debuff is less powerful as a result.
Comments
Big +1 this. I just knew that Cryptic was going to jump the gun and overnerf classes (not just TR). They're inexperienced and don't seem to know how to sort valuable feedback from qq complaints yet. From everything I've read, Duelist's Flurry was seriously overnerfed. Like 20-25% overall TR damage in a dungeon nerfed. Also with Deadly Momentum actually giving far more crit severity than intended, our damage was going to go down a significant amount without any other changes. It also needs to be considered that encounter design in this game heavily does not favor melee DPS. If TR's didn't bring great damage, they probably wouldn't be considered for a dungeon spot.
I will probably reroll to the new ranged class if I can't beat GF's and GWF's come next patch. They have more utility and can actually tank, Rogues are pure DPS. If a pure DPS class isn't at the top, game devs are doing something wrong.
That really isn't true - it can be both blocked and dodged and if the target runs too far away, it will miss. So you couldn't be more wrong there; play your rogue more. That said SE damage was too high and I'm glad it's getting nerfed so hopefully people will quit crying about Rogues. Their "qq" got us nerfed in PVE as well which really wasn't necessary.
Both can be dodged but the TR's jump is easier to spot. Both do about the same dmg. People geared and spec'd for PvP on CW do about 15k noncrit and 30k on a crit. This is at full health. SE usually does 8k noncrit and 15k crit at full health. It can not and never has been able to one-shot like Ice Knife does AT full health. At about half health a TR can pop SE on a person to do around 15k non crit and 30k crit.
Anyway, now that you understand and know the information about both of them, we don't care about the PvP nerf. We care about its' nerf in PvE. Anyone who used SE at full health on a person was using it wrong to begin with. Its' proper use is for finishing off a PvE mob, like an Erineyes before it heals. We were able to pop up to 50k crit when it was around 30% health. Otherwise we would use Lurker's Assault. It has a situational, but very good use in PvE.
If we are going to talk about PvP though, once again, I could care less that SE got nerfed there, it should have. The nerf should have not been done in PvE though. They should be separate. But let's not pretend that Ice Knife wasn't strong as hell, and when you couple it with multiple stuns that CW gets, it becomes even stronger. I am used to PvP though and didn't mind it how it was. If a CW or TR popped a dialy to kill me, that was fine. It was a daily and I could dodge it if I was paying attention. You nerf skills because they are imbalanced, not because most players are unskilled and can't dodge them when it IS possible to.
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Short Code: NW-DU2BES2WA
As about Shocking Execution,they decreased the base damage,not the total damage.
So everything is fine,no worries.And honestly,yes we are overpowered.Rest classes should have rerolled long ago.
But guys,this is still beta,many things will change.Dont cry every single time they change something:)
Cheers!!!
It's sad how many people are abusing this in PvP right now.
For me it was no so much as a second enchant slot but to make BOTH my daggers glow 8)
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
Yea, going against someone with 2 Perfect Vorpals/2 Greater Plague Fires or one of each is a little too much. Having a TR at 200% crit severity while in stealth makes them one-shot from stealth with lashing blade.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
Are you joking? You think people will stop whining? This is just the beginning. This will change absolutely nothing.
The complaints and nerfs are going to keep rolling in until the new ranged class is released. Then, the attention will slide off us for a while.
No you can't. I've tested it with both the stealthed and non-stealthed version
Dorks with Tranquilizers
Rogue, hey Rogue...
Whaaaat?
Knife!
You are correct, Se cant be avoided with ITC. It can be blocked, and it doesnt have that long range so players can run away from it. It also have quite a long animation so you get interupted by CC quite often.
Also something I noticed is, that sometimes you get some of the aggro on you, so you almost need 100% stealth time to avoid damage, which in spider is one of the hardest. I am guessing that after the patch, most people stop playing rogue, because I honestly believe it is the hardest role in the game.
These are my initial thoughts on test rogue. I do admit that my gear is pretty bad for the rogue, since I don't really main it, but I predict a lot of rogues will stop playing rogue after the patch comes.
This actually makes the TR sound fun to me.
Have mained a TR since day 1 and tested over classes, I found the TR the most UNFUN class to play.
Unleash Combo.....hold mouse button till dead......move on.....
This actually makes me want to play the TR more often now.
Spiders is a hard boss for TR like you said tho.
Would you test vs Spell boss? i honestly find this guy to be beyond easy.
as for less people playing the TR, good, thats GOOD news. i would love to see classes evened out a little with players.
Spell boss easy? no kidding, all the bosses in this game are cake, 4 second long animation attacks and huge telegraphs etc. However, I kinda feel like they overnerfed the TRs and the other classes BIG TIME. Duelist flurry accounts for like 80% of our damage in PVE and they basically destroyed it. It's kinda hard for me to even spend the time to log on and grind DD's anymore knowing that the developers are so incompetent and not to mention there's no end game.. nothing to do at all.
Glad I stopped playing this game consistently. Oh, if they are willing to nerf TR this hard because of a few whiners on the forum, imagine what they will do to the other classes when all the TRs starts crying?
This is exactly what I thought would happen and I doubt they will change it before the 20th. I am just glad I leveled everything but GF to 60 and geared it. My TR and DC will just be not used, ever. GWF isn't terrible and I like CW, so I guess I will be fine. Still not happy, because TR was my main, but such is the way of most mmorpg developers, can't get **** right at all.
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Short Code: NW-DU2BES2WA
1. They cant kill their class in PvP
2. They cant outdps their class in PvE
This same f-king thing happens in every MMO by whining a-holes that dont know how they play their classes.
a nice nail to the coffin for me, unless the archer is properly done (it can take the place of the TR as a top single target DPS, no fuss no muss)
They will offer a free respec once the patch goes live on the 20th but no respec on the preview server, which makes it counterproductive testing the new changes.
Still highest single target dps in the game is TR, just as intended, for l33t adds and boss fights they are perfect. All that is changed is u wont see TR top overall dps in the end of a dungeon, cause it was dumb for single target class to outdamage AOE classes by 50% in overall dmg. TR is still single target dmg king.
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
I wish we could all live in fairy world where this was true.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
U overreact. In truth we got maybe 25% dmg nerf yet ST dmg is still highest. The only big nerf is that I now can't run Perfect vorpal and GP at the same time
Seze - Rogue - Necropolis -
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Read what solsol1337 said. Multiple people have already reported from the test realm and said that GWF and GF are out damaging them. It's not a matter of single-target vs AoE either. It's a matter of balance. TR and CW are the squishiest DPS classes. A CW has a bunch of control, and more importantly a ranged class. A GF is a tank, it should never outdmg us, dps build or not. And a GWF is a hybrid as far as balance. It should do less dmg than a TR but also take less dmg. Not to mention an easy to charge and decent length pop of Unstoppable.
For balance, we should be doing the most dps at the end of a dungeon, "Single-target King" or not, which we aren't. The dmg cut is by more than half. I am not sure the severity of the CW changes, it may actually be on par or lower than TR. Either way, as far as balance goes, it shouldn't be TR on the bottom. Now don't get me wrong, I have every class at 60 and geared except for GF. I play them all and I clearly see a TR is too strong. It shouldn't do 100% more dmg than all the other classes, but the nerf that has been done makes us actually do less dmg than all other DPS classes, that is more than a 100% dmg cut.
If you understand that, then cool. You get it. And if you are still trying to argue, there is no point in me responding a second time. People have tested in the test realm. If you still disagree you are just saying a Tanky DPS, a Tank and potentially a Ranged Control class should all rightfully do more dmg than a squishy melee and that is just not right.
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Short Code: NW-DU2BES2WA
as a side note: to people that say ice knife isn't more powerful than SE... let's assume for a moment it isn't (which is not true), it still charges up more than twice as fast as most rogues will charge their daily. i mean really, i also have a cleric and the lvl 60 daily hammer is better than SE by far imho.
No way you gonna outdps a GOOD Cw as a TR in castle never.
yep - run cn with our premade - cw kicks adds down when possible, nukes / perma singus them into corners and since we don't pull bosses back to abuse (which would be a big dps advantage for tr) there are plenty of adds during all 4 boss fights (take numbers before or after entering dracolich fight - doesn't matter if he kicks or nukes during final fight) a good cw is ahead by a good amount - but they are rare like good trs, dcs, gwfs and gfs
p.s. and if you take a look how they killed plague fire enchantment it says all about how to engage balance difficulties...