A slight ammount of adds would be acceptable.
Bosses need to be deadly without adds. Otherwise they are not bosses, they are just a healthbar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubfbr_v-vPQ
Haven't seen all dungeon bosses yet, but some of the solo bosses are fairly nasty. Rime Hound was mentioned, also the one in Whispering Caves where you must not kill the adds to prevent more from spawning. But these are really exceptions...otherwise its indeed mostly "kill adds, hit boss while no adds are up"
Haven't seen all dungeon bosses yet, but some of the solo bosses are fairly nasty. Rime Hound was mentioned, also the one in Whispering Caves where you must not kill the adds to prevent more from spawning. But these are really exceptions...otherwise its indeed mostly "kill adds, hit boss while no adds are up"
I thought the Rime Hound was fairly easy on every character even my melees, but the boss in whispering cavern was hell as I didn't realise you should just ignore the adds
I still managed it, it was just very painful........
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited June 2013
What will make it even more fun is to deal with all those adds without the lovely blue circle there to constantly protect you. I'm going to say the average pickup group is going to have a tough time with some bosses.
A nice idea that Age Of Wushu did was use players as ADDS with some boss fights, actually works quite well
Global Agenda did the same: there were "dungeons" that could be done on Easy, Hard, Stupid Hard, and 'Stupid Hard with two human players working for the badguys'.
Imagine trying to spank down fifty adds sitting in an enemy astral shield....
Global Agenda did the same: there were "dungeons" that could be done on Easy, Hard, Stupid Hard, and 'Stupid Hard with two human players working for the badguys'.
Imagine trying to spank down fifty adds sitting in an enemy astral shield....
Oh god, I actually loved the dungeons in Global Agenda. It's a shame that the game eventually went to hell as it became more bugs than game. Tanking with a minigun- happy days!
Back on topic, I liked the part where they just kept spawning loads of adds...
This is so wrong. lots of bosses have different mechanics. Some bosses spawn adds on a timer, while other spawn adds at a certain health gate. The really good bosses spawn adds with no discernible pattern, which makes it very hard to deal with.
Yes, totally different mechanics. I don't see what all the complaining is about. Just look at the core of the game name AD&D........that is all you really need to know.
Yes as different as a Ritz cracker and a Triscuit...
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tyr216Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Simple combat means simple fights. You see this in virtually every action MMO. This game's PvE is basically a combination of Guild Wars and TERA. It's never going to have anymore depth than either of those two games. In other words: no depth at all.
Guildwars had some insanely deep PvE (and PvP), what with the thousands of skills available. Some of the combinations people came up with were hilariously inventive.
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tyr216Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Guildwars had some insanely deep PvE (and PvP), what with the thousands of skills available. Some of the combinations people came up with were hilariously inventive.
I mean Guild Wars 2, which has a lot less depth and skills than its predecessor.
What will make it even more fun is to deal with all those adds without the lovely blue circle there to constantly protect you. I'm going to say the average pickup group is going to have a tough time with some bosses.
I do think that the dungeons, after the first two in regular and epic, should be tuned down just a hair. They are a bit overtuned. But not dummied down to World of Warcraft level. I do like the difficulty in this game, but considering the fact that PuGs perform less than mediocre at times...devs need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is in a guild or wants to be, and not every guild wants to run dungeons(even though that is all there is to do in this game).
Simple combat means simple fights. You see this in virtually every action MMO. This game's PvE is basically a combination of Guild Wars and TERA. It's never going to have anymore depth than either of those two games. In other words: no depth at all.
I believe you need to re-think your assessment of Guild Wars 2 combat. Imagine the possibilities given the use of combo fields(and developers have even alluded to this).
For a particular boss you could have an ability that cannot be avoided, only avoided through retaliation, thus someone needs to drop a light combo field down and someone needs to blast it or something to give everyone retaliation. Or, theres a specific point in a fight where everyone needs to stealth. Mesmers and thieves can do this nicely. If the developers over at arenanet would learn to play off of the combo fields a bit more, you would change your tune.
As far as Neverwinter goes, and as I play a cleric, I think the combat in this game is second to none. Tera rivals it, and Tera might be better than it IMO, I don't know. But consider the combat from the major MMOs: WoW, Rift, Tera, GW2, LOTRO, AOC, AION, WAR, and now Neverwinter. Rank them?
Bottom line is the player base is already starting to dwindle. Thers half the players there was when OB started. Noone even runs Dungeons anymore except a few that run during DD event. The game economy is ruined from explioted programming errors and new players cant get gear from T2 dungeons because there are no others doing them to party with.
This is one of the most disasterous game releases I have been witness to... Sad really.
I do think that the dungeons, after the first two in regular and epic, should be tuned down just a hair. They are a bit overtuned. But not dummied down to World of Warcraft level. I do like the difficulty in this game, but considering the fact that PuGs perform less than mediocre at times...devs need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is in a guild or wants to be, and not every guild wants to run dungeons(even though that is all there is to do in this game).
I agree completely with a lot of the arguments in this thread. It would be nice if fights were slightly more involved like channel this object or rearrange this pillar to grant some effect or move the boss here because this area disappears. As is adds are the only way for them to add difficulty. Yes the adds themselves make a fight chaotic; however, the bosses themselves are so trivial at times the fight could hardly be said to be about depleting this health-bar and rather about handle this swarm. Bosses need to be a bit stronger and adds, while completely fine in my opinion, should be more about execution; not about swarming. It's not my game though so w/e I guess. It would just be nice to have flavor.
Simple combat means simple fights. You see this in virtually every action MMO.
Absolute tosh. Even DCUO (which is very action-combo-happy and as deep as a puddle) had interesting multiphase bosses, sometimes without the need for tonnes of adds, too. Hell, the Brainiac subconstruct raid end fight was just a huge open area with a large, spectacular multiphase boss who wasn't reliant on being just a static punchbag/HP bar to whale on between waves of trash.
(Of course, the game had other problems, 99 problems but boss encounters ain't one)
Ye, that big wolf was a tough one, try doing it on a cleric.
Odd, I thought it was fairly easy on my Cleric, although my GWF had a much harder time simply due to the ranged attack(s) Of course my CW was much easier than the Cleric but it wasn't too bad even on my GWF..
Ye, that big wolf was a tough one, try doing it on a cleric.
It was impossible for this cleric and i tried 4-5 times without AS (because we are going to have to be without it soon anyway, when I finaly gave in and put it on my bar I could finish it.
I was seriously confused as to whether or not that was supposed to be a group zone. Those wolves all by themselves are enough to make a cleric rage, then the RimeHound? *RAGE*
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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skorshaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Got to give it to the Devs, your bosses are amazing, every fight I mean, I just love kiting adds in a big circle while the tank does nothing and 2 wizards and a rogue hit it. Love simply relying on pots man, totally awesome game design. I also think it's just so awesome their is none of those stupid puzzles or strategies for each boss and each instance, really love that unique style of play where everything is a perpetual gear check, gotta love that system...yeah, really clever of you guys to come up with that my hat goes off to you.
Say what is your guys favourite boss? Is it the one with the pirate hat? You know the one where you glitch the end and kite the mobs and hit the boss? Or is it the ice giant, you know the one! You kite the mobs and you hit the boss...well there is a lot to choose from, the devs did a really good job on saving money by changing the palette on the same instance, really gotta say well done!
Hmmm i have been giving this some serious thought between wiping away the tears of laughter so here goes......
As a company Perfect World must have a boss right? same goes for Cryptic, so........everyone that works for these companys and makes their games, by default, must be ADDS! Based on this notion the game design makes total sense! actually it's kinda logical in a sad scary kinda way :P
Ty so much OP this is my favorite and most entertaining thread on these forums to date
Say what is your guys favourite boss? Is it the one with the pirate hat? You know the one where you kite the mobs and hit the boss? Or is it the ice giant, you know the one! You kite the mobs and you hit the boss...well there is a lot to choose from.....!
I have to admit this did make me laugh out loud. >_>
Me personally I am holding out til the first expansion, trying to see if maybe they take themselves out of this infancy and embarrassing example of game creation into something worthy of DnD
Just take a look at CO and STO, you will immediately see how big the chances for a different boss mechanic is.
My favorite bosses are the one with ledges. So much fun as a CW! I switch all my DPS and fun spells for stuff like Repel and Shield, and all I do the whole time is stand next to the DC and just keep knocking stuff off the ledge. Look at'em go! WHEEE! Just knock stuff out! So much fun! I love the part where I need to stay DPS 95% of the whole run, and then switch to knock back for the last fight cause that's the only times we actually need those kinda spells! Who doesn't love having to redo their Toolbar for different fights? It's so epic!!!!! Go into my Spellbook to drag and drop spell onto my toolbar! WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE! I'm having so much fun!
Then I just knock stuff over the ledge over and over again. I am a CONTROL Wizard after all, right? All I do is crowd control! Who plays a Wizard for damage anyways when just punting stuff off a ledge is 100% more fun!
....................... not. Playing an end-game CW sucks major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>$. It's so boring that I've boycott dungeons on my CW until they fix the game. Being invited to a 5-man as a CW for the sole purpose of just knocking stuff off ledges is BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING! It's so boring I'd rather just avoid dungeons all the together. I don't care if we're called "Control" Wizards, because from level 1 to 59, I never had to crowd "Control" anything! I was always the top DPS in all my dungeon runs, I can kill stuff super fast while levelling, so I imagined that by the time I hit 60, I could keep doing that, but no! As of now, Control Wizards at level 60 are exactly as their name implies: crowd CONTROL wizard!
I hope they fix this by the next patch or June 20th or else I'm probably not gonna be playing this game ever again. We get tons of DPS spells, but if I can never use them again then what's the point of playing a CW? Knocking stuff of ledges is cheap and the most boring kinda gameplay I've ever played in a MMORPG.
I don't want to have stupid fights like stand here...wait 10 seconds then move over here...wait 10 seconds than move over here.
Anyone remember the dance fight in Wow?
I much rather have adds than some stupid mechanic that punishes the entire group if someone did not click pillar at the right time.
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savaallMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited June 2013
ZOMG i love the boss in epic Spellplauge. I mean it's sooooo cool kiting adds around and blowing them off the platform for the entire first 75% of the fight and then the last 25% holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> man it is a freaking blast kiting all the adds that cant be cc'ed or knocked off the platform in a circle while being able to maybe throw one attack on the boss once every time around the circle all the while hoping you yourself don't get knocked off the platform that has become 75% smaller by 20+ adds on your *** that do a knockback ability. So fun.
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tyr216Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I believe you need to re-think your assessment of Guild Wars 2 combat. Imagine the possibilities given the use of combo fields(and developers have even alluded to this).
For a particular boss you could have an ability that cannot be avoided, only avoided through retaliation, thus someone needs to drop a light combo field down and someone needs to blast it or something to give everyone retaliation. Or, theres a specific point in a fight where everyone needs to stealth. Mesmers and thieves can do this nicely. If the developers over at arenanet would learn to play off of the combo fields a bit more, you would change your tune.
As far as Neverwinter goes, and as I play a cleric, I think the combat in this game is second to none. Tera rivals it, and Tera might be better than it IMO, I don't know. But consider the combat from the major MMOs: WoW, Rift, Tera, GW2, LOTRO, AOC, AION, WAR, and now Neverwinter. Rank them?
I agree about the combo fields needing to be expanded on in that game. As it is right now, you can completely ignore them and not suffer any impact on game play whatsoever. I find the coordination of combo fields taking place in PvP much more than PvE, and that's why I feel like there is a lack of depth to GW2's PvE. Every boss fight pretty much comes down to knowing when to dodge. We're experiencing something similar here in NWO. It pretty much comes down to rounding up the adds and avoiding damage. While this sort of simplicity isn't always a bad thing, it does become repetitious, which can get boring.
I think the general complaint about this game's PvE is not the combat mechanics themselves. It's the fights. The only way I see them ramping up the difficulty is by giving bosses more health and more waves of adds. This type of difficulty slider takes away from the planning element of end-game PvE. In other games like WoW and Rift where there are raids, there is a certain level of everyone having to know the fights and their role within the fight. There's multiple phases where those roles shift and you have to go into it with the right strategy in order to find success. Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating making this game more like WoW, because some troll will just say "go play wow", but I think the developers can add a bit more strategy to the fights in this game, mainly in the highest tier of difficulty.
It can drop the same loot as easier dungeons; I'm not interested in exclusivity. Just give us a challenge. Let's put this fun and awesome combat system to use instead of making every fight feel like a copy/paste job. The upcoming zone, Gauntwhatever, is a step in the right direction just because it looks like it requires more group coordination, but I won't be surprised when the end fight still boils down to handling adds and not standing in red circles, and that's something I think the devs can and need to work on.
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talung34Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Got to give it to the Devs, your bosses are amazing, every fight I mean, I just love kiting adds in a big circle while the tank does nothing and 2 wizards and a rogue hit it. Love simply relying on pots man, totally awesome game design. I also think it's just so awesome their is none of those stupid puzzles or strategies for each boss and each instance, really love that unique style of play where everything is a perpetual gear check, gotta love that system...yeah, really clever of you guys to come up with that my hat goes off to you.
Say what is your guys favourite boss? Is it the one with the pirate hat? You know the one where you glitch the end and kite the mobs and hit the boss? Or is it the ice giant, you know the one! You kite the mobs and you hit the boss...well there is a lot to choose from, the devs did a really good job on saving money by changing the palette on the same instance, really gotta say well done!
Ok. Sometimes you are flat out wrong!
Some bosses have adds of different sizes! Big and small ones. See! there was some thought!
Comments
Bosses need to be deadly without adds. Otherwise they are not bosses, they are just a healthbar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubfbr_v-vPQ
I want this class in NW.
Give the devs a break, coming up with two boss ideas is hard!
"Hmm..I know, more adds? Oh right, we already did that.."
I thought the Rime Hound was fairly easy on every character even my melees, but the boss in whispering cavern was hell as I didn't realise you should just ignore the adds
I still managed it, it was just very painful........
Imagine trying to spank down fifty adds sitting in an enemy astral shield....
Oh god, I actually loved the dungeons in Global Agenda. It's a shame that the game eventually went to hell as it became more bugs than game. Tanking with a minigun- happy days!
Back on topic, I liked the part where they just kept spawning loads of adds...
Yes as different as a Ritz cracker and a Triscuit...
I mean Guild Wars 2, which has a lot less depth and skills than its predecessor.
I do think that the dungeons, after the first two in regular and epic, should be tuned down just a hair. They are a bit overtuned. But not dummied down to World of Warcraft level. I do like the difficulty in this game, but considering the fact that PuGs perform less than mediocre at times...devs need to keep that in mind. Not everyone is in a guild or wants to be, and not every guild wants to run dungeons(even though that is all there is to do in this game).
I believe you need to re-think your assessment of Guild Wars 2 combat. Imagine the possibilities given the use of combo fields(and developers have even alluded to this).
For a particular boss you could have an ability that cannot be avoided, only avoided through retaliation, thus someone needs to drop a light combo field down and someone needs to blast it or something to give everyone retaliation. Or, theres a specific point in a fight where everyone needs to stealth. Mesmers and thieves can do this nicely. If the developers over at arenanet would learn to play off of the combo fields a bit more, you would change your tune.
As far as Neverwinter goes, and as I play a cleric, I think the combat in this game is second to none. Tera rivals it, and Tera might be better than it IMO, I don't know. But consider the combat from the major MMOs: WoW, Rift, Tera, GW2, LOTRO, AOC, AION, WAR, and now Neverwinter. Rank them?
This is one of the most disasterous game releases I have been witness to... Sad really.
Regards
I agree completely with a lot of the arguments in this thread. It would be nice if fights were slightly more involved like channel this object or rearrange this pillar to grant some effect or move the boss here because this area disappears. As is adds are the only way for them to add difficulty. Yes the adds themselves make a fight chaotic; however, the bosses themselves are so trivial at times the fight could hardly be said to be about depleting this health-bar and rather about handle this swarm. Bosses need to be a bit stronger and adds, while completely fine in my opinion, should be more about execution; not about swarming. It's not my game though so w/e I guess. It would just be nice to have flavor.
+1 to OP.
Absolute tosh. Even DCUO (which is very action-combo-happy and as deep as a puddle) had interesting multiphase bosses, sometimes without the need for tonnes of adds, too. Hell, the Brainiac subconstruct raid end fight was just a huge open area with a large, spectacular multiphase boss who wasn't reliant on being just a static punchbag/HP bar to whale on between waves of trash.
(Of course, the game had other problems, 99 problems but boss encounters ain't one)
Ye, that big wolf was a tough one, try doing it on a cleric.
Odd, I thought it was fairly easy on my Cleric, although my GWF had a much harder time simply due to the ranged attack(s) Of course my CW was much easier than the Cleric but it wasn't too bad even on my GWF..
It was impossible for this cleric and i tried 4-5 times without AS (because we are going to have to be without it soon anyway, when I finaly gave in and put it on my bar I could finish it.
I was seriously confused as to whether or not that was supposed to be a group zone. Those wolves all by themselves are enough to make a cleric rage, then the RimeHound? *RAGE*
Hmmm i have been giving this some serious thought between wiping away the tears of laughter so here goes......
As a company Perfect World must have a boss right? same goes for Cryptic, so........everyone that works for these companys and makes their games, by default, must be ADDS! Based on this notion the game design makes total sense! actually it's kinda logical in a sad scary kinda way :P
Ty so much OP this is my favorite and most entertaining thread on these forums to date
I have to admit this did make me laugh out loud. >_>
Grievance
LiveStreaming (almost) Daily!
Just take a look at CO and STO, you will immediately see how big the chances for a different boss mechanic is.
Then I just knock stuff over the ledge over and over again. I am a CONTROL Wizard after all, right? All I do is crowd control! Who plays a Wizard for damage anyways when just punting stuff off a ledge is 100% more fun!
....................... not. Playing an end-game CW sucks major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>$. It's so boring that I've boycott dungeons on my CW until they fix the game. Being invited to a 5-man as a CW for the sole purpose of just knocking stuff off ledges is BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING! It's so boring I'd rather just avoid dungeons all the together. I don't care if we're called "Control" Wizards, because from level 1 to 59, I never had to crowd "Control" anything! I was always the top DPS in all my dungeon runs, I can kill stuff super fast while levelling, so I imagined that by the time I hit 60, I could keep doing that, but no! As of now, Control Wizards at level 60 are exactly as their name implies: crowd CONTROL wizard!
I hope they fix this by the next patch or June 20th or else I'm probably not gonna be playing this game ever again. We get tons of DPS spells, but if I can never use them again then what's the point of playing a CW? Knocking stuff of ledges is cheap and the most boring kinda gameplay I've ever played in a MMORPG.
Back in the day it was 1 bugbear and 20 kobolds.
I don't want to have stupid fights like stand here...wait 10 seconds then move over here...wait 10 seconds than move over here.
Anyone remember the dance fight in Wow?
I much rather have adds than some stupid mechanic that punishes the entire group if someone did not click pillar at the right time.
I agree about the combo fields needing to be expanded on in that game. As it is right now, you can completely ignore them and not suffer any impact on game play whatsoever. I find the coordination of combo fields taking place in PvP much more than PvE, and that's why I feel like there is a lack of depth to GW2's PvE. Every boss fight pretty much comes down to knowing when to dodge. We're experiencing something similar here in NWO. It pretty much comes down to rounding up the adds and avoiding damage. While this sort of simplicity isn't always a bad thing, it does become repetitious, which can get boring.
I think the general complaint about this game's PvE is not the combat mechanics themselves. It's the fights. The only way I see them ramping up the difficulty is by giving bosses more health and more waves of adds. This type of difficulty slider takes away from the planning element of end-game PvE. In other games like WoW and Rift where there are raids, there is a certain level of everyone having to know the fights and their role within the fight. There's multiple phases where those roles shift and you have to go into it with the right strategy in order to find success. Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating making this game more like WoW, because some troll will just say "go play wow", but I think the developers can add a bit more strategy to the fights in this game, mainly in the highest tier of difficulty.
It can drop the same loot as easier dungeons; I'm not interested in exclusivity. Just give us a challenge. Let's put this fun and awesome combat system to use instead of making every fight feel like a copy/paste job. The upcoming zone, Gauntwhatever, is a step in the right direction just because it looks like it requires more group coordination, but I won't be surprised when the end fight still boils down to handling adds and not standing in red circles, and that's something I think the devs can and need to work on.
Ok. Sometimes you are flat out wrong!
Some bosses have adds of different sizes! Big and small ones. See! there was some thought!