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Please put in a leaver penalty for dungeons.
ranncore
Member, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 2,508
30 minutes into the dungeon and the cleric says, "hope I'm doing okay, first time here." Of course the group had no deaths and the first boss went by easy. Two people drop.
Really annoying.
Really annoying.
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Really annoying having people leave right off the bat if we don't immediately get the center point. People leaving as soon as we start to lose and not even try to turn it around. The other day we had someone leave, after cursing out the team, because we were 200 points behind and we still managed to win 4v5 after he left.
If I join Temple of the Spider there's a near 100% chance that if you don't use the shortcut the person will leave. It's literally near impossible to play that map legitimately due to the leavers. Without any penalty they simply don't care but honestly to an extent that should be forgiven.
More important to me, and I can't believe I'm saying this, is PvP. I have literally spent the entirety of the last few days doing my PvP Daily with one of two three outcomes:
1) Both teams perform well, woohoo. Get to the end and barely win or lose.
2) My team gets a 25% lead early on, half of the enemy team leaves.
3) Enemy team gets a 25% lead early on, half of my team leaves.
PvP right now is littered with people who play for the first quarter and then simply leave and requeue. At the very least these people shouldn't be able to join another queue (any queue) until the PvP match they quit from is finished but ideally they should have some additional punishment enforced.
When you queue into something you are, for all intensive purposes, stating that you set <time> to do <activity> and aren't expecting to leave. Everybody is entitled to their emergencies or irritations once in a while. You can say this team sucks and leave occasionally and you can have an "darn I really need to go, sorry" moment every once in a while but as it stands both of these occur far too much and it hurts everybody.
I can't count how many times I've gotten to the last boss of a dungeon and heard "Sorry guys I have to go, good luck!" and while there's certainly jerks in the community who enjoy winning due to the enemy team quitting out it doesn't make the losing team or moral players from the winning team feel good about the experience.
We need systems to discourage this type of behavior.
You queued for it, you finish it.
In Champions(yes I know its another game) The Gravitar alert is for level35+(out of 40). I'v e had a character get repeat one shotted by her(she hates mine)two dozen times, until she instead shot the healer who kept ressing me.
getting killed once is nothing.
You're losing to start with. Whoopee.
Thats when you try harder. I've been in teams for alerts where we won on the last second due to last ditch efforts.
All you're saying by quitting is that you can't handle it.
strangely enough, you're not supposed to win each time or succeed each time. That's a bonus.
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1. That person upset you, so therefore he lost a chance to gain your good graces.
2. He missed an opportunity to revel in victory at your side, an experience I hear is one to cherish forever.
3. All the loot he could have gained, and experience, and money, and fame, and glory, and wisdom, and character.
4. He will never know how much you liked his hair. You should always comment on an exceptional hairstyle right off. They might leave and then what?
5. he may have died of heart failure shortly after leaving your group. If he had stayed, he could have typed in group chat "Ugh....OH God It is the big one...call 911." Nope, he instead typed in in zone chat and it got lost in the gold farm spam.
Penalties already exsist. let's instead talk of greater rewards for completing the dungeon!
NW-DMIME87F5
Awaiting a serious response from the developers on the abuse of the review system by other authors.
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i think 15 minutes would suffice.
at an hour the forums will fill up with rage posts about "i got disconnected" or "my power blinked" or whatever else followed by "and now i cannot play for an hour, this is stupid, i hate you, blah blah"
15 minutes makes it so that it is generally not worth leaving, but is not excessively punishing to people who had technical problems.
BTW, ciould you change your little picture I can't see your hair
and while I'm completely off topic, Is there a way to check what level foundry is aimed at or are they being made for level 60?
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I'm really not sure I should take that post seriously and I promise that is the first time I have every said that to any post on the forums. Come on, if you oppose the idea give a constructive reason to oppose it.
Those reasons are...well put it this way, I could imagine my five year old brother giving those reasons.
15 Minutes would be too short in my opinion.
The thing is it should be a forgiving system, perhaps with a cooldown, because not everybody who leaves does so without care for other people.
Disconnects happen. Blips in power do occur. Emergencies will arise.
Any system should consider whether the leaving is a rare occurrence or pandemic. If the system only punished people for leaving by preventing them from doing anything for a period of time they would simply rage quit and do something else for a while which likely wouldn't require much of a shove if they opted to rage quit.
In my opinion a system which negatively impacts any future gameplay for frequently doing unethical actions is far more effective. Rage quitting tonight might not bother you since you're already angry but if you rage quit and tomorrow you found your rewards impacted it might be a bit more foreboding.
I did. Well not the first five things. But the last thing I said was very constructive. Instead of grabbing the torches and pitch forks every time there is an issue with player behavior, why not reward good behavior more. I know that sounds like a crazy idea, but so crazy it just might work.
NW-DMIME87F5
Awaiting a serious response from the developers on the abuse of the review system by other authors.
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NW-DMIME87F5
Awaiting a serious response from the developers on the abuse of the review system by other authors.
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All fine and dandy but the problem is the rewards are exactly why people leave in PvP.
They see the team is losing so the cut their losses, leave, requeue, and get rewards for winning.
If they see they are losing they leave. If they're winning they stay.
This likely doesn't result in more glory gain simply due to lost time but this is certainly what they are doing. Rewarding people more for staying just isn't an option, in fact one of the issues that was addressed in the major changes was those farming the already high loss earnings.
You start. You finish. Win or Lose. Simple.
Then again I grew up before this modern 'everybody's a winner' craze. Sorry but when you do something wrong you get punished, not rewarded less.
Unlike STO where it is perfectly possible for any combination of classes to complete an STF with a little work, the same cannot be said for dungeons, they are designed and I quote (I believe it was Zeke that said it) "we know that if we dev's design something that we think is 'a little bit tough', that the players will think it too easy, so we designed the dungeons to be impossible for us to complete" (or words to that effect, have a watch at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0E6Yw-M1YY for some great insights into the development process for Neverwinter, made during the press beta). In other words, when the game went live, the devs had no idea if it was possible to complete many of the dungeons, we have since proven that they can be completed, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to do most of them, without certain classes, and it wouldn't be right to punish people for this fact.
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I see your point, and have heard the same argument in many other games, but being forced to stay and be pulverized to prevent punishment from the game also will have very negative affects over time.
NW-DMIME87F5
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When you genuinely disconnect you don't leave the group so once you log back in your fine, anyone who leaves group should get the debuff... or if they are gone more than 5 minutes. We had someone disconnect before first boss in Dread Vault yesterday and we stood around for nearly 10 minutes before we finally called it.
Another guy joined group got to the first pack he jumps in grabs all the mind flayers and thaumaturges... as the healer I was stunned and in flame circles and then he rage quits saying crappy cleric.... then another couple leave but its early into the delve and more people join the group including the GF that rage quit.... he then moves to the first pack and does the same thing again and I call him out and say dude if the pack isn't controlled I can't heal he then quit again the four of us left cleared that pack and started to clear the trash and he joins group again.....
This is where the leaving debuff is needed for people who have no concept of team play but want to face roll a dungeon but at the same time want to be carried.
I am going to love seeing the rage when the Astral shield change goes in and we can't keep the shield up 100% of the time there are going to be a lot of deaths after that change comes in.
/rant off
If you /ignore him will it prevent him from showing up in your group again?
Adding a penalty is a good thing. While stuff happens (casual with kids so I know) the majority of leavers I've encountered over the years are because of impatient idiots who want a speed run... You want to run it fast, then /lfg or premade guild run.
"But I can play the game any way I want to...!!!" Not when you are causing delays to 4 other people. When you enter a lfg/pvp queue, you are agreeing that you can play for the next X amount of time. If you can't, then don't queue. Is there a contract or agreement, no of course there isn't. But it's common courtesy (it's the internet, who has any courtesy?). Since no game can enforce courtesy the next best thing is a debuff for queues for those who don't have it.
Yesterday in zone chat a guy was advertising starting an AFK PVP group in the 50-59 bracket. These type of people don't care about you and me, they are too selfish for that. No change will stop it either. If they make changes to PVP, these types of people will just turn it into a way to grief the players they qued with.
This has been my experience in MMO's since 1997. This is why I don't do PvP and almost never go with a PUG group. I do dungeons with the guildies. Never seen a rage quit, in fact, only ever seen one person quit and he'd told us ahead of time that he had a hard stop in xx minutes.
Even when we wiped twice in a row, none of us quit, instead we stood around behind the purple curtain yelling encouragement (and humor!) or heckling ("Run faster! It's chasing you!", "Hey, there's something big and nasty behind you!") the one or two that were still in a hopeless battle. As for loot, folks were only rolling 'need' on things they actually needed, rolling 'greed' on tings they might be able to use and rolling 'pass' on things they could not use. It's quite amusing when everyone rolls 'Pass' and you all stop and laugh.
It should be 'carrot and stick' approach. Certain behavior(s) that lead to the detriment of others (rage quitting for example) should be discouraged on a sliding scale with cumulative debuffs. It's ok to 'lose' a match, it's ok to go up against that end boss and wipe. It's NOT ok to abandon your team to their fate. It's NOT ok to let them do all the work and then kick them so you can grab all the rewards for yourself. Unfortunately tho, Bastad hit the nail on the head here, way too many folks are of the 'me me me' variety, probably as a result of playing other games where the focus is so narrow and it becomes the 'de riguer' behavior to play that way because that's how they learned from others.
It's the classic 'tragedy of the commons' all over again, as seen in game theory , oddly enough it's not at all new , some of this dates back way before computers were used for gaming. See John Forbes Nash, and in particular the now well known 'Nash Equilibrium'.
TLDR:- If a game has a unique Nash equilibrium and is played among players under certain conditions, then the NE strategy set will be adopted. Sufficient conditions to guarantee that the Nash equilibrium is played are:
#1 is certainly true. #2 not so much. #3 probably. #4 not so much (it requires that everyone know the strong and weak points of the other players.
As for #6, read it after a cup of coffee...
You think this is bad wait until Gauntlrym releases. I can pretty much guarantee you that the only team that may see all three stages will be the winning team. I'm sure I don't need to state the obvious but for those who haven't reviewed the video, the winning team will be able to do a dundeon that rewards T2 gear, while the losing team will do a dungeon rewarding T1 gear. This essentially guarantees that players going for T2 gear will be dropping like flies from losing teams starting the T1 dungeon. It is going to happen on a regular basis. As a matter of fact, I am willing to bet that many won't even hang around that long and leave after losing the first stage.
/stashed under obvious
Regrettably, it doesn't. Reinforcing good behavior DOES promote good behavior, on that you're certainly right. It does not, however, create good behavior out of bad behavior when the...erm..."hooligan" feels that there is no chance of success in giving a good run.
I say this with the base assumption that honest folks really don't want "participant" rewards to go up. In dungeons, there may be some positive effect(say, relatively high random desirable drop rates from trash mobs). In PvP, all it promotes is AFKing--and you'd be amazed by the creative scripts people have made to make their afking look like participation(in the form of bots).
What happens when folks leave others to handle the mess they just made is that they've decided that their time is more valuable than that of others.
If a person DOES decide that their current activity isn't a good use of their time, I don't think that's really for anyone else to say. A time penalty that ensures that they going back on the time that they have committed to, however, is a time honored and solid solution to create a penalty that ensures that no, in fact, leaving others in a bad way does NOT allow them to profit.
As for the dungeons , the devs should fix their "shortcuts" . The players are not to blame that they don't want to waste their time during the DD event . So instead of punishing players for leaving a clearly not experienced group of let's say first timers , maybe the dev team should look into fixing the content that they are producing in the first place .
I agree. I suspect that the T1 side of Gauntlgrym won't see many plays. Players are likely to decide to requeue for another opportunity at the greater rewards, unless the rewards from T1 Gauntlgrym somehow convey a tangible advantage to players who have them when competing for the T2 access... How can this be done? I have no idea. Is it fair or even a good idea? probably not - it would unbalance all similar content. On the upside, remember that only guilds can participate in Gauntlgrym so you should have the opportunity to discuss what your plans are with your guild-mates and have clear expectations on what the team would like to do when faced with a loss. Knowing ahead of time will make you happier with the decision and may even affect your choice of guild. Guilds that advertise honestly that they complete T1 runs of Gauntlgrym will attract players who have the same desire. Now that's not a terrible idea... (/pats self on back for realizing the obvious...)
edit: yeah I changed my mind mid-post there... tired this morning
I would support a 30min timer for people who leave. That's enough that you could go out and run quests or find other things to do and still make you think about it before you drop. I would also suggest there be one for PVP and one for Dungeons/Skirmishes. That way if someone has a legit reason for leaving they could go do the other while they wait for the timer to run down.
Thirty minutes is not nearly enough of a penalty to prevent leavers. It should be at least one hour with two hours being the more applicable penalty to effectively prevent the behavior.
I agree with this, when ever you try to punish negative behavior indirectly you are punishing the honest. Just look at the pvp changes, can no longer kick an afk because of abusers, you get less if you lose because of abusers as well.
Considering we beat karrundax when our healer died last night at 50%, I'm not really seeing the necessity for a DC in every single dungeon.
The changes to PvP (less rewards for losing) are only going to create more leavers.
I'm thinking something like 30 minute queue lock and 30 minute currency lock (no AD or glory gain).