It's a feature because the combat is meant to be action/strategy, not the tired old click targeting system that "traditional" MMOs use.
Last time I checked, I could still move my mouse to access everything I could need to click, while having a streamlined combat system that feels more intuitive than mashing 1-5 and tab targeting/clicking to look at someone.
And nobody is asking you to change, don't worry. I know you are panicking, but it'll be okay if other people get to play the way they like, too. It won't kill you or destroy your game enjoyment, I promise!
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SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Why not allow me to, for example, deactivate my mouse by right-clicking and holding, and move the right-click at-will to a keybind? It's only one solution, but it seems like it would be pretty workable.
I was never here to argue for or against the topic, but to add my opinion, and question the OP why they would take off the mouse button hotkeys. I thought that's what open forums were for, opinions :P
Because I don't like mouse-button hotkeys. I'm not playing XBox. If I wanted to play XBox, I would. If you like them, great, I am glad they have that option for you, and unlike you, I would never request they keep that option from you.
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SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
AKA - I'm a keyboard turner and a clicker and I have been sucking at mmo's since 1999.
This control scheme is better. I have actually worn down the right mouse button on 2 logitech mice because of mmo's. They are designed to have the mouse used to interact with the ui and target properly but to react fast enough and to position properly you need to use mouselook movement. As such I play the game with the right mouse button held down 90% of the time.
The method used in Neverwinter does not require a locked target the game does that for you. This allows mouselook to be on at all times keeping my eyes on the action and off my ability bars or keyboard. This is the better method and leads to learning how to use mouselook and keybindings properly in other MMOs. Learn this system enjoy it and be better at the genre you love.
The targeting system of action MMOs is reticle-based or focus-based, meaning that you cannot "lock" your target by tabbing or pressing a specific key or clicking his healthbar or that you cannot atack the target if you're not facing it. It works as if you were holding a real wepon, you gotta aim. The wepon will not magically hit your target if you don't aim properly as it happens in many mmos. The entire game revolves around this mechanic and if you expect to be able to properly target stuff by using a different method I can tell you you're wasting your time.
Eh, maybe you couldn't do it, but I certainly can. You're assuming that you know my skill set or level does not add anything to the discussion. I'm glad you like the current method and I would never ask them to take that away from you, all I'm asking is the same courtesy.
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SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
AKA - I'm a keyboard turner and a clicker and I have been sucking at mmo's since 1999. Additionally I suck at pvp because all these little kiddos keep on running behind me while I hold down my D key to slowly turn around and face them.
Hey, listen, don't be so down on yourself. If you can't handle it, don't use it. For those of us who can handle it, just asking to give us the option.
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SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Glad to see my thread got some discussion going. Sorry for the multiple posts there, I've been out of pocket for a bit. Thanks to everyone for their input.
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SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Tab targetting was invented to make stuff easier (too easy imo) so your mother could play an mmo too once in a while.
Im glad to see that theres an mmo willing to steer away from tabtargetting fluff.
Note that I never asked for Tab-targeting.
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SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
But you are. Targeting in this game works by facing. Because of the faster pace of combat and movement in the game if you don't have constant mouselook you can't face what your trying to attack properly. That means you need a lock on system aka tab targeting so that you can effectively attack what you are trying to damage.
Screeeeeeew that! I will never, ever play an effed up game that forces me to hold down the right mouse button! That fatigues the hell out of my hand. Carpel tunnel anyone? =\
Screeeeeeew that! I will never, ever play an effed up game that forces me to hold down the right mouse button! That fatigues the hell out of my hand. Carpel tunnel anyone? =\
to stupid or just to lazy to change the keybindings?
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avendi0Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited June 2013
I can see WHY some folks would want this feature, especially if they're used to playing a very different way in other games.
I especially hear this same complaint/request from those who have played WoW for years, or that are 'keyboard turners' in a majority of the games they play.
With that in mind, it makes sense to give players more options to play the game, because having more players in an MMO is part of what makes an MMO, an MMO. At the same time though, I feel like it would also introduce another active element of division within the player base accordingly to play style. Especially since the majority of MMO players today are closed-minded elitists; As a majority of the posts in this thread so far shows us.
The reason for this division though is because there honestly IS a difference in 'skill level' when playing this kind of game outside of the intended control scheme. Assuming same player skill level, someone who uses their keyboard to aim most likely won't have the same reaction time in-game as someone who uses their mouse to aim. That slower speed is often a handicap for a group when everyone is relied upon equally.
It's still not an entirely objective reason or view as to WHY this option shouldn't be available, but it's best way I can verbalize it. *shrugs*
My personal opinion on the controls in this game:
I find the current controls to be a fantastic control scheme because it fits so well with the way they adopted the powers mechanic from D&D 4e. After my first time playing the game, my immediate thought was that the controls just felt so 'right' for the game. They feel intuitive, make sense, are easy to get to, and there's not a lot of them. I really like the controls.
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grundoonMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
I have to say, I tried. Played for the better part of a month, to level 27. I just can't acclimate myself to the targeting system, especially as group healer. I can't find/target the party member who needs heals. I'm afraid I just can't play this game at this time. I hope they will improve the healer's targeting abilities, like the F1-F5 keys. That would make it great.
I also dislike have to use the wad keys AND the mouse to move. and all the other associated complaints. I'll check in from time to time to see if the devs relent.
So you want the game to allow you to play poorly? I say that b/c keyboard turning and ability clicking literally make you a worse player. Purely b/c such a control method is ineffective, slow, and cumbersome.
So you want the game to allow you to play poorly? I say that b/c keyboard turning and ability clicking literally make you a worse player. Purely b/c such a control method is ineffective, slow, and cumbersome.
Yes, by your definition, I want the game to allow me to play poorly. That said, as you seem to be in possession of knowledge that no one else has, I expect you will be publishing the study that proves- objectively- that keyboard turning and ability clicking literally makes every player worse. Either that, or you will shut up, since there is no scientific study proving this (you know, with a significant sample size and data... good stuff when you wish to prove a point, no?)
Yes, by your definition, I want the game to allow me to play poorly. That said, as you seem to be in possession of knowledge that no one else has, I expect you will be publishing the study that proves- objectively- that keyboard turning and ability clicking literally makes every player worse. Either that, or you will shut up, since there is no scientific study proving this (you know, with a significant sample size and data... good stuff when you wish to prove a point, no?)
I dont need to make a study. Key board turning is slower than mouse turning. Therefore the same player will be able to react faster to a situation when using a mouse to turn over a keyboard key.
The same is true with clicking abilities. The same player can press keys 1, 2, and 3 faster than he can move the mouse to click each ability on screen.
Lemme put it this way: try playing a piano with work gloves on.
I dont need to make a study. Key board turning is slower than mouse turning. Therefore the same player will be able to react faster to a situation when using a mouse to turn over a keyboard key.
The same is true with clicking abilities. The same player can press keys 1, 2, and 3 faster than he can move the mouse to click each ability on screen.
Lemme put it this way: try playing a piano with work gloves on.
False argument and lack of data. Nothing more need be said to you until you change your tune.
False argument and lack of data. Nothing more need be said to you until you change your tune.
My tone? I am merely being matter of fact.
However, since i disagree with you, you seem to think i am being hostile. I am not.
If devs allow the control set up you want, great! All i am saying is it is not optimal. If you take the time to accustom yourself with the default controls i am sure you will see the benefits in regards to speed of control.
If not you can continue to use a spoon to cut your steak.
The controls and action-orented combat is one of the main reason I got interesred in this game. I'm sick and tired of the usual auto-attack, click-to-use skill model that's been plaguing most MMO's for a long time. On the other hand, I like the controls of NWN2 and similar games, but those are an entirely different tyoe of games and I fail to see how such controls could possibly let you play Neverwinter with any success. You're supposed to use your mouse-click abilities for the majority of your attacks. Manually clicking a button for those attacks would slow you down a whole lot. Even if you hot-keyed them, I imagine it'd be rather painful keeping one of those buttons pressed while holding down movement keyes and reaching for other skills.
I'm not at all trying to berate anyone, but if you don't see the problem with such a control scheme in this game, then I'm afraid you have misunderstood how combat works.
However, since i disagree with you, you seem to think i am being hostile. I am not.
Curiously, you have once again failed to respond to my actual post. I said nothing about your tone. I chose my words carefully and you chose either to misread them or to misinterpret them (I honestly neither know nor care). Either answer the actual query or don't- it's really irrelevant.
If devs allow the control set up you want, great! All i am saying is it is not optimal. If you take the time to accustom yourself with the default controls i am sure you will see the benefits in regards to speed of control.
Patently not true. Your first posts were argumentative and antagonistic and, essentially, amounted to 'play my way or you're bad.' Also, see your statement below and try to tell me that isn't deliberately insulting. I'm fully aware of the difference between denotation and connotation. You should be too.
If not you can continue to use a spoon to cut your steak.
I've pointed out before that having the option to switch playstyles is, in my opinion, actually optimal- and others have pointed out that the coding already exists. Your objection appears to be based on the idea that if the option to switch between playstyles existed, people would choose one and use ONLY that playstyle regardless of the circumstances. If you go back to the beginning, you'll notice that my ideal would be to switch out of the mouselook mode in SOCIAL instances, thus allowing faster and easier social interaction. Others prefer different playstyles because the mouselook fast-twitch action MMO controls are uncomfortable to them (for whatever reason) and yet they don't wish to leave the game. Why do you feel that a group of players should be excluded? And, if you don't feel that a group should be, essentially, told that they will not be able to enjoy the game and they should go off somewhere else, why do you insist on employing arguments that amount to 'you suck because you don't like to play my way' without a shred of hard data to back up your claims. It's nice to say that common sense says that something is true, but, unless you can prove that your statement is universally true and there are no exceptions, it is also not a valid position in an opinion-based argument.
The controls and action-orented combat is one of the main reason I got interesred in this game. I'm sick and tired of the usual auto-attack, click-to-use skill model that's been plaguing most MMO's for a long time. On the other hand, I like the controls of NWN2 and similar games, but those are an entirely different tyoe of games and I fail to see how such controls could possibly let you play Neverwinter with any success. You're supposed to use your mouse-click abilities for the majority of your attacks. Manually clicking a button for those attacks would slow you down a whole lot. Even if you hot-keyed them, I imagine it'd be rather painful keeping one of those buttons pressed while holding down movement keyes and reaching for other skills.
I'm not at all trying to berate anyone, but if you don't see the problem with such a control scheme in this game, then I'm afraid you have misunderstood how combat works.
Sorry for the double post.
I understand the arguments for the action-MMO keyboard/mouse setup, and I don't really have a problem with them except: 1- given that the coding already exists and that some people prefer alternative keyboard/mouse setups, there's no reason not to allow it and, 2- the action-MMO setup is clearly NOT optimal for all situations.
When you have the resources to provide MORE people with satisfaction in their gaming, choosing not to do so seems counter-productive.
I would also add that if the alternative setups are so inferior to the currently enforced setup, then the fastest way to get people to switch over with minimal griping would be to allow them to try and play with their preferred-and-inferior setup.
I would also add that if the alternative setups are so inferior to the currently enforced setup, then the fastest way to get people to switch over with minimal griping would be to allow them to try and play with their preferred-and-inferior setup.
Actually, assuming there is a big difference in performance between the control set ups this isn't true. People using the inferior control method would be raging on the forums about OP and broken, etc. They would blame the game for their performance rather than the control method. That would be a good reason to restrict it in this way.
Is there that great a difference, I don't know. It doesn't play that differently to champions online that I wouldn't think it would be a huge problem. Given that we don't have the choice here I'd imagine either internal testing suggests a performance drop off with traditional input methods or that they felt the need to streamline the control interface for casual players.
Place three fingers on three keys. Press them in rapid succession. Now try the same thing with a single finger. Which is faster?
Depends entirely on which three keys and which three fingers versus the single finger. Also, depends on if the single finger you choose to use is your index finger or your pinky or thumb. Oh yeah- the order in which you press the three keys may make a difference, as well.
The point here is simple: any given method is not equally optimized for all playstyles and pretending that it is does not make it so.
I will add that my tests are purely anecdotal; I assume yours are as well as you have not given me links to your lab notes or the compiled studies which you appear to have sole access to.
Ill call my friends at MIT and we will get right on this study.
Right after we finish our study proving the sky is blue on a sunny day and black with tiny white specks in it at night.
We could possibly get it done even faster if i can pull my friend at yale from his thesis, which proves, without a doubt, that water is wet.
You dont need exhaustive studies to prove mouse turning is faster (and therefore better in a situation where speed matters) than keyboard turning.
Same is true for using hotkeys over clicking the lil icons on your screen.
If you want to be a clicker, key-turner fine. But dont sit here and say it is just as effective as using hotkeys and a mouse to turn. It is not. It is a physical impossibility.
And quit trying to put words in my mouth. It's rude and unhelpful.
As stated- several times- not all situations are equal and not all situations require lightning fast turning and reflexes. Get off your high horse and deal with the fact that this MMO is not only about combat.
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perfectindigoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I'm disappointed how fervently people oppose providing options for the control scheme, like it's going to take something away from them or ruin their experience in the game. It won't.
In town, I don't like being stuck with the fixed cursor. What if I could hit Alt and it toggled whether the mouse was stuck but let me move? Then I would have the choice to hit Alt or not. Problem solved. Nothing taken away from anyone else. The UI would just be less annoying in town or whenever else I wanted that control scheme.
Current "camera mode" gave me a headache in less that an hour of play. That mode is too intense for long hours of play. Until it is changed I have to leave the game...and that is unfortunate as it looked promising.
The Easy Fix Would Be....
I. CREATE A TOGGLE BETWEEN:
1. Reticle Target View Mode (combat).
--You toggle it on, Reticle appears, mouse look is locked on.
---- Allow player to turn camera view horizontally (head and shoulder) about 45 degrees without changing the characters running/standing direction. (essentially a strafe fire). After 45 degrees the character direction turns. Vertical change is limited to from ground level to above players head.
-- Allow the reticle's placement to be adjusted on the screen (up and down) in the options menu to do the following:
When its higher up in the screen area (above the character) then its more useable from the Third Person perspective.
When its lower in screen (closer to the character) then its more useable from a First Person perspective.
2. Regular View Mode (non combat).
--You toggle it on--Reticle disappears, mouse look is unlocked.
---- Allow player to turn camera view (head and shoulder type turn) about 45 degrees without changing the characters running/standing direction by holding down the right mouse key. After 45 degrees the character direction turns. Vertical change is limited to from ground level to above players head.
---- Allow player to have free camera view holding down left mouse key. This would be unlimited direction without changing the direction of the character
II. Allow Camera to Zoom Out 3 times the current distance.
Comments
And nobody is asking you to change, don't worry. I know you are panicking, but it'll be okay if other people get to play the way they like, too. It won't kill you or destroy your game enjoyment, I promise!
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
thats already possible, just rebind your keys
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
This control scheme is better. I have actually worn down the right mouse button on 2 logitech mice because of mmo's. They are designed to have the mouse used to interact with the ui and target properly but to react fast enough and to position properly you need to use mouselook movement. As such I play the game with the right mouse button held down 90% of the time.
The method used in Neverwinter does not require a locked target the game does that for you. This allows mouselook to be on at all times keeping my eyes on the action and off my ability bars or keyboard. This is the better method and leads to learning how to use mouselook and keybindings properly in other MMOs. Learn this system enjoy it and be better at the genre you love.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Note that I never asked for Tab-targeting.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
But you are. Targeting in this game works by facing. Because of the faster pace of combat and movement in the game if you don't have constant mouselook you can't face what your trying to attack properly. That means you need a lock on system aka tab targeting so that you can effectively attack what you are trying to damage.
Sucker.....
to stupid or just to lazy to change the keybindings?
I especially hear this same complaint/request from those who have played WoW for years, or that are 'keyboard turners' in a majority of the games they play.
With that in mind, it makes sense to give players more options to play the game, because having more players in an MMO is part of what makes an MMO, an MMO. At the same time though, I feel like it would also introduce another active element of division within the player base accordingly to play style. Especially since the majority of MMO players today are closed-minded elitists; As a majority of the posts in this thread so far shows us.
The reason for this division though is because there honestly IS a difference in 'skill level' when playing this kind of game outside of the intended control scheme. Assuming same player skill level, someone who uses their keyboard to aim most likely won't have the same reaction time in-game as someone who uses their mouse to aim. That slower speed is often a handicap for a group when everyone is relied upon equally.
It's still not an entirely objective reason or view as to WHY this option shouldn't be available, but it's best way I can verbalize it. *shrugs*
My personal opinion on the controls in this game:
I find the current controls to be a fantastic control scheme because it fits so well with the way they adopted the powers mechanic from D&D 4e. After my first time playing the game, my immediate thought was that the controls just felt so 'right' for the game. They feel intuitive, make sense, are easy to get to, and there's not a lot of them. I really like the controls.
I also dislike have to use the wad keys AND the mouse to move. and all the other associated complaints. I'll check in from time to time to see if the devs relent.
Yes, by your definition, I want the game to allow me to play poorly. That said, as you seem to be in possession of knowledge that no one else has, I expect you will be publishing the study that proves- objectively- that keyboard turning and ability clicking literally makes every player worse. Either that, or you will shut up, since there is no scientific study proving this (you know, with a significant sample size and data... good stuff when you wish to prove a point, no?)
I dont need to make a study. Key board turning is slower than mouse turning. Therefore the same player will be able to react faster to a situation when using a mouse to turn over a keyboard key.
The same is true with clicking abilities. The same player can press keys 1, 2, and 3 faster than he can move the mouse to click each ability on screen.
Lemme put it this way: try playing a piano with work gloves on.
False argument and lack of data. Nothing more need be said to you until you change your tune.
My tone? I am merely being matter of fact.
However, since i disagree with you, you seem to think i am being hostile. I am not.
If devs allow the control set up you want, great! All i am saying is it is not optimal. If you take the time to accustom yourself with the default controls i am sure you will see the benefits in regards to speed of control.
If not you can continue to use a spoon to cut your steak.
I'm not at all trying to berate anyone, but if you don't see the problem with such a control scheme in this game, then I'm afraid you have misunderstood how combat works.
Curiously, you have once again failed to respond to my actual post. I said nothing about your tone. I chose my words carefully and you chose either to misread them or to misinterpret them (I honestly neither know nor care). Either answer the actual query or don't- it's really irrelevant.
Patently not true. Your first posts were argumentative and antagonistic and, essentially, amounted to 'play my way or you're bad.' Also, see your statement below and try to tell me that isn't deliberately insulting. I'm fully aware of the difference between denotation and connotation. You should be too.
I've pointed out before that having the option to switch playstyles is, in my opinion, actually optimal- and others have pointed out that the coding already exists. Your objection appears to be based on the idea that if the option to switch between playstyles existed, people would choose one and use ONLY that playstyle regardless of the circumstances. If you go back to the beginning, you'll notice that my ideal would be to switch out of the mouselook mode in SOCIAL instances, thus allowing faster and easier social interaction. Others prefer different playstyles because the mouselook fast-twitch action MMO controls are uncomfortable to them (for whatever reason) and yet they don't wish to leave the game. Why do you feel that a group of players should be excluded? And, if you don't feel that a group should be, essentially, told that they will not be able to enjoy the game and they should go off somewhere else, why do you insist on employing arguments that amount to 'you suck because you don't like to play my way' without a shred of hard data to back up your claims. It's nice to say that common sense says that something is true, but, unless you can prove that your statement is universally true and there are no exceptions, it is also not a valid position in an opinion-based argument.
Sorry for the double post.
I understand the arguments for the action-MMO keyboard/mouse setup, and I don't really have a problem with them except: 1- given that the coding already exists and that some people prefer alternative keyboard/mouse setups, there's no reason not to allow it and, 2- the action-MMO setup is clearly NOT optimal for all situations.
When you have the resources to provide MORE people with satisfaction in their gaming, choosing not to do so seems counter-productive.
I would also add that if the alternative setups are so inferior to the currently enforced setup, then the fastest way to get people to switch over with minimal griping would be to allow them to try and play with their preferred-and-inferior setup.
Place three fingers on three keys. Press them in rapid succession. Now try the same thing with a single finger. Which is faster?
Actually, assuming there is a big difference in performance between the control set ups this isn't true. People using the inferior control method would be raging on the forums about OP and broken, etc. They would blame the game for their performance rather than the control method. That would be a good reason to restrict it in this way.
Is there that great a difference, I don't know. It doesn't play that differently to champions online that I wouldn't think it would be a huge problem. Given that we don't have the choice here I'd imagine either internal testing suggests a performance drop off with traditional input methods or that they felt the need to streamline the control interface for casual players.
Part 1: Death comes to Neverwinter - NW-DL8EPHRAT
Depends entirely on which three keys and which three fingers versus the single finger. Also, depends on if the single finger you choose to use is your index finger or your pinky or thumb. Oh yeah- the order in which you press the three keys may make a difference, as well.
The point here is simple: any given method is not equally optimized for all playstyles and pretending that it is does not make it so.
I will add that my tests are purely anecdotal; I assume yours are as well as you have not given me links to your lab notes or the compiled studies which you appear to have sole access to.
Right after we finish our study proving the sky is blue on a sunny day and black with tiny white specks in it at night.
We could possibly get it done even faster if i can pull my friend at yale from his thesis, which proves, without a doubt, that water is wet.
You dont need exhaustive studies to prove mouse turning is faster (and therefore better in a situation where speed matters) than keyboard turning.
Same is true for using hotkeys over clicking the lil icons on your screen.
If you want to be a clicker, key-turner fine. But dont sit here and say it is just as effective as using hotkeys and a mouse to turn. It is not. It is a physical impossibility.
And quit trying to put words in my mouth. It's rude and unhelpful.
As stated- several times- not all situations are equal and not all situations require lightning fast turning and reflexes. Get off your high horse and deal with the fact that this MMO is not only about combat.
In town, I don't like being stuck with the fixed cursor. What if I could hit Alt and it toggled whether the mouse was stuck but let me move? Then I would have the choice to hit Alt or not. Problem solved. Nothing taken away from anyone else. The UI would just be less annoying in town or whenever else I wanted that control scheme.
The Easy Fix Would Be....
I. CREATE A TOGGLE BETWEEN:
1. Reticle Target View Mode (combat).
--You toggle it on, Reticle appears, mouse look is locked on.
---- Allow player to turn camera view horizontally (head and shoulder) about 45 degrees without changing the characters running/standing direction. (essentially a strafe fire). After 45 degrees the character direction turns. Vertical change is limited to from ground level to above players head.
-- Allow the reticle's placement to be adjusted on the screen (up and down) in the options menu to do the following:
When its higher up in the screen area (above the character) then its more useable from the Third Person perspective.
When its lower in screen (closer to the character) then its more useable from a First Person perspective.
2. Regular View Mode (non combat).
--You toggle it on--Reticle disappears, mouse look is unlocked.
---- Allow player to turn camera view (head and shoulder type turn) about 45 degrees without changing the characters running/standing direction by holding down the right mouse key. After 45 degrees the character direction turns. Vertical change is limited to from ground level to above players head.
---- Allow player to have free camera view holding down left mouse key. This would be unlimited direction without changing the direction of the character
II. Allow Camera to Zoom Out 3 times the current distance.