I don't care about rouges dammages, but the ability to throw knifes totally invisible without the opportunity to fight back is clearly something ridiculous.
It should be the only thing to remove.
Coincidentally this is the only thing we can do in order to survive you hard hitters. We also have a limited amount of knives to throw, 12 in total. Once we run out of knives, we have to resort to encounters which will break our stealth and potentially get us killed. We also have our limitations.
Yes, it is convenient that we are able to fully use our At-Wills in Stealth, but our at-wills do not hit as hard as a GF's, CW's, even a GWF's. But I do agree that we somehow need to tone down the Tenebrous Enchant procs a bit. They're crazy.
It's not the class we need nerfed as we can be easily killed as we are most specially if the build used by a rogue is one that does not concentrate on survivability, and that is the case for most rogues. The gear effects, however, changes the balance a whole lot. It makes a class look dreadfully OP due to their synergistic effects with the class powers.
I want to call to attention something that is destroying the balance in pvp (what little we have at all) in hopes that it gets nerfed hard. But until then, if you want to one shot anyone without them ever having a chance to fight back, this is what you do:
So rogues have 3 ways of re-entering stealth in succession right after they pop, the ability to get off a full chain of throwing daggers before popping stealth (clone, shadowstrike iirc) AND they can frontload 20k+ (that is the low end) dmg from Tene procs BEFORE THEY LEAVE STEALTH FROM RANGED. So this cheese build allows them to do that back to back 1, from stealth, 2 from clone staying stealthed, 3 from shadowstrike re-entering stealth once again and if they use the talent that allows you to build stealth meter without loss from damage they can then instantly start this all over again. PERMANENTLY NEVER LEAVING STEALTH and one shotting people with dagger throws. Just right clicking from ranged while completely invisible and winning.
Just another player crying about rogue pretending as if they have a rogue.
Coincidentally this is the only thing we can do in order to survive you hard hitters. We also have a limited amount of knives to throw, 12 in total. Once we run out of knives, we have to resort to encounters which will break our stealth and potentially get us killed. We also have our limitations.
Yes, it is convenient that we are able to fully use our At-Wills in Stealth, but our at-wills do not hit as hard as a GF's, CW's, even a GWF's. But I do agree that we somehow need to tone down the Tenebrous Enchant procs a bit. They're crazy.
It's not the class we need nerfed as we can be easily killed as we are most specially if the build used by a rogue is one that does not concentrate on survivability, and that is the case for most rogues. The gear effects, however, changes the balance a whole lot. It makes a class look dreadfully OP due to their synergistic effects with the class powers.
Not all encounters. There's Shadow Strike and Clone, which both replenish your stealth meter. Spec'd correctly, you can build a TR that can perma-stealth, and just kill people with default attacks + SE + tene procs.
As a GF, it's well known there are a few TR builds that I just have to run away from, since I have little chance in causing any damage. GWF have even less of a chance. I have no problems with Shocking Execution, but some of these TR builds are just too crazy...as a GF I only have one viable build in PvP.
and for your info rogues are easy to handle, in fact im even having hard time fighting GWFs
Yes... as a 14k GS GF, I can manhandle most rogues... but well geared permastealth seems to be kryptonite. If you have any tips for combating this, i'm all ears. So far every GF I talked with said to run away. Sometimes I can get a lucky knockdown, but good TR's can pretty much avoid this.
Not sure how why you're having problems with GWF's unless you're trying to facetank them.
I've been noticing that with nerf-threads like this there is always a lot of frustration, a lot of ignorance and a whole lot of misinformation.
'One-shotting' with 12 Cloud of Steel knifes for instance... that's not one-shotting.
Perma-stealth... may be possible, but the TR is extremely gimped, the only damage he can then do are from At-Wills, all the encounters are for stealth. And if the problem is with stacking runes, why the need to nerf any class?
But more importantly, it's always about how YOU lose. Not your team, not the match, just the individual person in that 5v5 team.
You got TR's too, use them instead of whining about how that ONE player killed you in that TEAM match.
Not all encounters. There's Shadow Strike and Clone, which both replenish your stealth meter. Spec'd correctly, you can build a TR that can perma-stealth, and just kill people with default attacks + SE + tene procs.
As a GF, it's well known there are a few TR builds that I just have to run away from, since I have little chance in causing any damage. GWF have even less of a chance. I have no problems with Shocking Execution, but some of these TR builds are just too crazy...as a GF I only have one viable build in PvP.
That's true. However, prolonging our Stealth simply means we can survive longer. It's not as if we have an effective means to deal damage while in Stealth specially when Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike eat up 2 of our encounter slots, 2 slots which we could have used for damaging powers. We can throw daggers for a limit of 12 per 36 seconds (1 dagger refreshes per 3 secs), and it doesn't do much damage unless we attack only a single opponent repeatedly. Or unless we have a full AP bar for Shocking Execution but our AP regen is painfully slow. We can also use Sly Flourish and attack close up but flimsy rogues like us can't really risk getting close to GF's and GWF's that can knock us prone and permastun us. It is actually pretty hard for us to do damage, unless we are well-geared. And that's where the problem is right now; it's inherently in the gear, and not the build/class itself
You have to admit that all classes can become horrendously terrifying with Tene + Plague Fire procs. A GF and DC can become incredibly hard-hitting tanks with the correct gear and they have a lot of HP to increase the damage of Tene + Plague Fire procs. They don't even need to be in stealth, just stand there and whack something and they die with such a gear setup. But I never can really know for sure because I've never played a GF/DC. But from my experience as a perma-stealth user who cannot afford the Full Tene gear in PVP, it's very, very difficult to beat GF's and DC's, and we are supposed to excel in 1 vs. 1 combat.
I've been noticing that with nerf-threads like this there is always a lot of frustration, a lot of ignorance and a whole lot of misinformation.
'One-shotting' with 12 Cloud of Steel knifes for instance... that's not one-shotting.
Perma-stealth... may be possible, but the TR is extremely gimped, the only damage he can then do are from At-Wills, all the encounters are for stealth. And if the problem is with stacking runes, why the need to nerf any class?
But more importantly, it's always about how YOU lose. Not your team, not the match, just the individual person in that 5v5 team.
You got TR's too, use them instead of whining about how that ONE player killed you in that TEAM match.
rogues are ok, tenes are the ones broken, one possible fix is to make it a weapon enchantment with 5/6/7/8% hp into damage instead of today's 6x3%=18% current hp damage if they proc together, that's roughly pure 5k damage on a decent GF. A little less damage when used on rogues, but rogues have better ways to proc tenes.
bastadMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited June 2013
The stealth build is so gimped. They have to slot sinister strike and bait and switch, so that leaves them an at-will and one real damage encounter. So you are getting beat down by an at-will. It's a low DPS harasser build and nothing else. If you are dying to one something is wrong with your gear.
The stealth build is so gimped. They have to slot sinister strike and bait and switch, so that leaves them an at-will and one real damage encounter. So you are getting beat down by an at-will. It's a low DPS harasser build and nothing else. If you are dying to one something is wrong with your gear.
Can you not read? 30k dmg from a ranged at will before leaving stealth is ok then? Riiight
Edit: hah, this comment also works for the above poster too.
OP, I fought you and your guild plenty of times on Dragon. Your guild has no problems running premades but yet some of your guildies run the plague fire + tenes build IRC.
I was in a pug match against you and your guild a couple of times and you guys won handily. I guess me killing you and some of your guildies from stealth really got under your skin huh?
Lol this is funny. You certainly can't one shot EVERYONE. Even if you have a CW to remove my 50% defense along with your armor pen you may hit over 30k and one shot me with the rogues daily... BUT I have 60% deflect rating, gotta have luck on your side if you want to get a crit and make it so I don't deflect the hit.
People have a go at deflect rating and I suppose they are right to as it does dig into your dps a lot, although it does give you a chance to not be one hit killed by people which is nice.
_____________________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] <- No violence or dark humor here, move on.
I.M.P.@drimp in Champions (Careful that you don't get hit by falling bombs when dueling)
Dr Imp@drimp in Neverwinter (Apparently I use hax and exploits, also I apparently payed to win)
That's true. However, prolonging our Stealth simply means we can survive longer. It's not as if we have an effective means to deal damage while in Stealth specially when Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike eat up 2 of our encounter slots, 2 slots which we could have used for damaging powers. We can throw daggers for a limit of 12 per 36 seconds (1 dagger refreshes per 3 secs), and it doesn't do much damage unless we attack only a single opponent repeatedly. Or unless we have a full AP bar for Shocking Execution but our AP regen is painfully slow. We can also use Sly Flourish and attack close up but flimsy rogues like us can't really risk getting close to GF's and GWF's that can knock us prone and permastun us. It is actually pretty hard for us to do damage, unless we are well-geared. And that's where the problem is right now; it's inherently in the gear, and not the build/class itself
You have to admit that all classes can become horrendously terrifying with Tene + Plague Fire procs. A GF and DC can become incredibly hard-hitting tanks with the correct gear and they have a lot of HP to increase the damage of Tene + Plague Fire procs. They don't even need to be in stealth, just stand there and whack something and they die with such a gear setup. But I never can really know for sure because I've never played a GF/DC. But from my experience as a perma-stealth user who cannot afford the Full Tene gear in PVP, it's very, very difficult to beat GF's and DC's, and we are supposed to excel in 1 vs. 1 combat.
I agree with you. Without tene, most stealth builds are pretty simple to deal with. Permastealth...that just stays out of range the whole time, not so sure.
For those who are tuning in and don't realize how powerful tene+plaguefire is, you can slot 6x greater enchants, each giving you a (IIRC) 20% chance to proc for 3% of your HP. The plaguefire will dot for 3 times after a hit, which gives you a 4/5 chance prc'ing off each hit. Plaguefire stacks 3 times...this is huge. 80% chance to hit for 18% of your HP (which for me is 30k * 18% = 5400). For some reason I seem to hit for 4 times with plaguefire, but i suspect this is a bug.
Fully geared rogues probably have ~24k HP give or take, so that's 4,320 from procs on cloud of steel. If plaguefire procs on this as well, basically multiply this by 3x(without bug) as long as they space their attacks out a bit so they always have 3 stacks.
>>> 12/5.0 * 4320 * 3
31104.0
>>>
...and this is on average....with only procs, not that damage from the blades. Sure there's damage mitigation, but there's also armor penetration and combat advantage. If someone can do this math better, please feel free. This is all from memory.
This is not a "rogue is OP thread," it's a "stealth+cloud of steel+tene overpowered" thread. Which I have to agree with, since the game with these enchantments is not how much damage you can do with each hit, but rather, how many times you can hit someone. 12x hits on me before I can even start my rotation is too much.
Fortunately it's only a sliver of the population that are abusing this build, but i'm afraid this will become widespread soon.
Here's another thread where people put real combat logs to the test, and confirm tenebrous+plaguefire+cloud is silly I'm not complaining; my rogues almost to 60, and I will be gearing her up with tenebrous+plaguefire.
I
This is not a "rogue is OP thread," it's a "stealth+cloud of steel+tene overpowered" thread. Which I have to agree with, since the game with these enchantments is not how much damage you can do with each hit, but rather, how many times you can hit someone. 12x hits on me before I can even start my rotation is too much.
I doubt they would do anythnig to fix the stealth/dmg of a TR, they have said (if u follow the updates) that TRs are gonna be sorted out in terms of less damage for more CC or more CC and less dmg depending on their feats and paragons. as are Mages. Keep up to date with the rest of the games updates and news before venting about the individual mechanics of the game or the classes. Almost everything u mentioned has been taken into review and is readable in major Dev posts...
Even if they nerf the plague fire + tenes build, CoS spamming from stealth will still be viable. Just hit impossible to catch before stealth runs out for 5 sec immunity and smash them with 3x impact shots. On my build, impact shots can crit up to 10k.
So I expect people will still be complaining about rogues long after the plague fire + tenes build has been nerfed. People don't want to admit it that they hate being hit from stealth and want to nerf rogues to the ground.
A CW was complaining today in a pvp match that "throwing knives from stealth is cheesy". I replied with "I guess you want me to stealth right in front of you so you can target me from 80 range then?".
Even if they nerf the plague fire + tenes build, CoS spamming from stealth will still be viable. Just hit impossible to catch before stealth runs out for 5 sec immunity and smash them with 3x impact shots. On my build, impact shots can crit up to 10k.
So I expect people will still be complaining about rogues long after the plague fire + tenes build has been nerfed. People don't want to admit it that they hate being hit from stealth and want to nerf rogues to the ground.
A CW was complaining today in a pvp match that "throwing knives from stealth is cheesy". I replied with "I guess you want me to stealth right in front of you so you can target me from 80 range then?".
I got no answer and I wonder why.
Historically, being hit from stealth has always led to hate. This is the first MMO i've played where a TR can stay in stealth while attacking though, so 2x the normal hate?
Historically, being hit from stealth has always led to hate. This is the first MMO i've played where a TR can stay in stealth while attacking though, so 2x the normal hate?
That is the way Cryptic implemented the TR class, so the hate should go to them. Not the players who are playing their class to its maximum advantage.
0
lrdthorrenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited June 2013
Tr's are getting a major nerf, read the state of the game.
Comments
Coincidentally this is the only thing we can do in order to survive you hard hitters. We also have a limited amount of knives to throw, 12 in total. Once we run out of knives, we have to resort to encounters which will break our stealth and potentially get us killed. We also have our limitations.
Yes, it is convenient that we are able to fully use our At-Wills in Stealth, but our at-wills do not hit as hard as a GF's, CW's, even a GWF's. But I do agree that we somehow need to tone down the Tenebrous Enchant procs a bit. They're crazy.
It's not the class we need nerfed as we can be easily killed as we are most specially if the build used by a rogue is one that does not concentrate on survivability, and that is the case for most rogues. The gear effects, however, changes the balance a whole lot. It makes a class look dreadfully OP due to their synergistic effects with the class powers.
Just another player crying about rogue pretending as if they have a rogue.
Not all encounters. There's Shadow Strike and Clone, which both replenish your stealth meter. Spec'd correctly, you can build a TR that can perma-stealth, and just kill people with default attacks + SE + tene procs.
As a GF, it's well known there are a few TR builds that I just have to run away from, since I have little chance in causing any damage. GWF have even less of a chance. I have no problems with Shocking Execution, but some of these TR builds are just too crazy...as a GF I only have one viable build in PvP.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
and for your info rogues are easy to handle, in fact im even having hard time fighting GWFs
Yes... as a 14k GS GF, I can manhandle most rogues... but well geared permastealth seems to be kryptonite. If you have any tips for combating this, i'm all ears. So far every GF I talked with said to run away. Sometimes I can get a lucky knockdown, but good TR's can pretty much avoid this.
Not sure how why you're having problems with GWF's unless you're trying to facetank them.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
'One-shotting' with 12 Cloud of Steel knifes for instance... that's not one-shotting.
Perma-stealth... may be possible, but the TR is extremely gimped, the only damage he can then do are from At-Wills, all the encounters are for stealth. And if the problem is with stacking runes, why the need to nerf any class?
But more importantly, it's always about how YOU lose. Not your team, not the match, just the individual person in that 5v5 team.
You got TR's too, use them instead of whining about how that ONE player killed you in that TEAM match.
That's true. However, prolonging our Stealth simply means we can survive longer. It's not as if we have an effective means to deal damage while in Stealth specially when Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike eat up 2 of our encounter slots, 2 slots which we could have used for damaging powers. We can throw daggers for a limit of 12 per 36 seconds (1 dagger refreshes per 3 secs), and it doesn't do much damage unless we attack only a single opponent repeatedly. Or unless we have a full AP bar for Shocking Execution but our AP regen is painfully slow. We can also use Sly Flourish and attack close up but flimsy rogues like us can't really risk getting close to GF's and GWF's that can knock us prone and permastun us. It is actually pretty hard for us to do damage, unless we are well-geared. And that's where the problem is right now; it's inherently in the gear, and not the build/class itself
You have to admit that all classes can become horrendously terrifying with Tene + Plague Fire procs. A GF and DC can become incredibly hard-hitting tanks with the correct gear and they have a lot of HP to increase the damage of Tene + Plague Fire procs. They don't even need to be in stealth, just stand there and whack something and they die with such a gear setup. But I never can really know for sure because I've never played a GF/DC. But from my experience as a perma-stealth user who cannot afford the Full Tene gear in PVP, it's very, very difficult to beat GF's and DC's, and we are supposed to excel in 1 vs. 1 combat.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z256/PaiOeShi/NWjinSS.png
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z256/PaiOeShi/QGJpic.png
PS I also can afford TENE's on all my toons, and refuse to do it. Just how I feel.
15.8k GS GF (full 7's slotted timless)
10k CW
13k GWF
Obvious rogue fanboi is obvious....
Include Ability Score Rolling When Respec-ing (Click and Comment to Show Support)
Yes, I like TR's. But other than that one statement, can you actually disprove what I said, or was that the total amount of your contribution?
Can you not read? 30k dmg from a ranged at will before leaving stealth is ok then? Riiight
Edit: hah, this comment also works for the above poster too.
I was in a pug match against you and your guild a couple of times and you guys won handily. I guess me killing you and some of your guildies from stealth really got under your skin huh?
People have a go at deflect rating and I suppose they are right to as it does dig into your dps a lot, although it does give you a chance to not be one hit killed by people which is nice.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] <- No violence or dark humor here, move on.
I.M.P.@drimp in Champions (Careful that you don't get hit by falling bombs when dueling)
Dr Imp@drimp in Neverwinter (Apparently I use hax and exploits, also I apparently payed to win)
I agree with you. Without tene, most stealth builds are pretty simple to deal with. Permastealth...that just stays out of range the whole time, not so sure.
For those who are tuning in and don't realize how powerful tene+plaguefire is, you can slot 6x greater enchants, each giving you a (IIRC) 20% chance to proc for 3% of your HP. The plaguefire will dot for 3 times after a hit, which gives you a 4/5 chance prc'ing off each hit. Plaguefire stacks 3 times...this is huge. 80% chance to hit for 18% of your HP (which for me is 30k * 18% = 5400). For some reason I seem to hit for 4 times with plaguefire, but i suspect this is a bug.
Fully geared rogues probably have ~24k HP give or take, so that's 4,320 from procs on cloud of steel. If plaguefire procs on this as well, basically multiply this by 3x(without bug) as long as they space their attacks out a bit so they always have 3 stacks.
>>> 12/5.0 * 4320 * 3
31104.0
>>>
...and this is on average....with only procs, not that damage from the blades. Sure there's damage mitigation, but there's also armor penetration and combat advantage. If someone can do this math better, please feel free. This is all from memory.
This is not a "rogue is OP thread," it's a "stealth+cloud of steel+tene overpowered" thread. Which I have to agree with, since the game with these enchantments is not how much damage you can do with each hit, but rather, how many times you can hit someone. 12x hits on me before I can even start my rotation is too much.
Fortunately it's only a sliver of the population that are abusing this build, but i'm afraid this will become widespread soon.
Here's another thread where people put real combat logs to the test, and confirm tenebrous+plaguefire+cloud is silly I'm not complaining; my rogues almost to 60, and I will be gearing her up with tenebrous+plaguefire.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?188702-Tenebrous-Power-is-way-overpowered/page5
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
Now that I can wholeheartedly agree on,
+1
So I expect people will still be complaining about rogues long after the plague fire + tenes build has been nerfed. People don't want to admit it that they hate being hit from stealth and want to nerf rogues to the ground.
A CW was complaining today in a pvp match that "throwing knives from stealth is cheesy". I replied with "I guess you want me to stealth right in front of you so you can target me from 80 range then?".
I got no answer and I wonder why.
Historically, being hit from stealth has always led to hate. This is the first MMO i've played where a TR can stay in stealth while attacking though, so 2x the normal hate?
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys
That is the way Cryptic implemented the TR class, so the hate should go to them. Not the players who are playing their class to its maximum advantage.