The post above yours does a pretty good job describing it.
I was so thrilled when I got the shield because I knew it would make life easier. The problem is that it makes it too much easier and it's to the point that I will purposely not put it down as often as I can *whistles innocently*
It also makes the gameplay very static. It's put down the shield, throw some seals, maybe cast a separate encounter but overall hold down left click.
As I said previously I would really appreciate some alternatives. The shield should be toned down but I think viable alternatives need to be made as well. In the higher dungeons as boring as the shield makes the gameplay it's simply a bit too difficult without it so it's really a catch 22 situation.
Being a healer is a thankless job. You are taken for granted when you're there, first to get yelled at when anything goes wrong (although sometimes it is the healer's fault). It's like that in any game with a healer. I don't know why I love playing healers....
I hate when people say things like this because its so untrue.
Do you thank the dps when he deals a lot of damage? Do you thank the tank for holding agro?
Everyone is taken for granted, everyone in the team is expected to do their job. I will never understand why healers expect people to say thank you every time you heal, yet the healers are under no obligation to thank the rest of the team for doing their jobs.
The clerics and the guardians are underpowered. That is why few people play with them. The developers have made the common mistake we see in most similar mmorpgs. They don't do enough damage and so they don't get the xp to level up. They can't stay with their friends because their friends soon out rank them. All the classes should do about the same amount of damage and just have other traits that define the class.
Um, what?
Have you played PvP? Guardian fighters are starting to hit harder than rogues thanks to some crazy crit build that's all the rage.
Also if all the classes did the same damage, rogues and GWFs would have nothing to offer. Why bring a rogue along when the cleric can do the same damage, AND heal?
Anyway, the problem with Clerics is Astral shield. Its simply too powerful that it makes the rest of their kit insignificant. They need to nerf the hell out of astral shield and buff up the rest of the clerics kit so a cleric without astral shield is just as useful as one who does have it.
9.6k DC here. Have hardly done any of the dungeons. It's virtually impossible to find a group thats patient enough or willing to teach you the ropes on new dungeons or one that isn't people that only want experienced players 4/4 CN etc, so I rarely volunteer. I'm a reasonable player, been around in MMo's as a healer since Ultima Onlines bone wall ^^.
I like the Cleric class, I don't use Sooth although I do have it specced. It probably makes it more of a challenge but to me thats part of the fun, staying alive.
People wondering where all the clerics have gone just need some patience in pugs, take the rough with the smooth.
The shield should be toned down
I don't agree with that, its a relatively small area that has to be maintained and often theres too much going on inside the shield to stay in it. If anything they should just make it so the effects cant be stacked.
This happens whether there is one Cleric or two. These things are part of what makes Cleric fun! Also, unlike in traditional MMOs, you can and sometimes are expected to contribute in other ways aside from your primary role, like debuffing, knocking, rooting, kiting or damaging mobs. In double Cleric runs, for example, I am always 2/3 of the damage of the weakest DPS (often middle of the board in kills) because I make a point of weaving in damage in sync with the activities of other dps, especially after Singularities or Smoke Bombs. I do not achieve this with any special gear. In fact, I often run with a defense set even in double Cleric runs because larger pulls are more likely.
To me, given your wide ranging and contradictory statements, it sounds like you just do not understand action combat games, which are almost never tied to exactly one role, or you do not enjoy healing in the case of DC. The only reason I still play this game despite the huge number of fundamental issues from class synergy, to class bugs, to support systems (not talking about customer service), is because of the non-traditional MMORPG core gameplay. Thankfully, Cleric also happens to be one of the least bugged or broken classes, so I have not regretted making one for the endgame.
In short, NW's healing core gameplay is by far the most active and fluid action combat healing class in the whole genre (yes, I have played most action combat MMOs that exist today and as a healer wherever available), this is even after the disasterous rubberbanding patch from a week ago that causes dangerous deja-vu and prevents clutch movements now on all classes.
Please point out where my statements contradict each other?
I whole heartedly agree you are supposed to do additional things. And doing those additional things does not make it any more entertaining. The healing is far from active and fluid. Fluid and action based would require movement, strategy, and those "oh ****" times when everything starts going downhill. Currently there is none of that because of Astral Shield. At the moment the entire concept of dungeon combat in neverwinter revolves around static stationary combat.
I played the Cleric in TERA and I found that to be 10 times as action oriented as the Cleric in Neverwinter. So I have experience in action MMO's. The reality is, the core concept of the game is great, but the functionality of the classes and dungeons is pretty far below what I would consider good.
But that's just my opinion. Some agree, and some disagree.
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lordofscornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
I hate when people say things like this because its so untrue.
Do you thank the dps when he deals a lot of damage? Do you thank the tank for holding agro?
Everyone is taken for granted, everyone in the team is expected to do their job. I will never understand why healers expect people to say thank you every time you heal, yet the healers are under no obligation to thank the rest of the team for doing their jobs.
Um, what?
Have you played PvP? Guardian fighters are starting to hit harder than rogues thanks to some crazy crit build that's all the rage.
Also if all the classes did the same damage, rogues and GWFs would have nothing to offer. Why bring a rogue along when the cleric can do the same damage, AND heal?
Anyway, the problem with Clerics is Astral shield. Its simply too powerful that it makes the rest of their kit insignificant. They need to nerf the hell out of astral shield and buff up the rest of the clerics kit so a cleric without astral shield is just as useful as one who does have it.
Many say it's a thankless job because they sacrifice fun to play the support role and babysit others. Have you even played a healer? Everybody always wants one around, but no one wants to take on or step up to the role themselves and there is a reason for this. What he said is true in my experience. Same thing goes for tanks. As dps you can be self reliant and even selfish. You usually aren't concerned with watching out for the whole of the party like a tank or healer. (although, good dps know how to peel/etc.) Why do you think everyone plays one?
And yes, usually I will thank a good player, regardless of class; but it's usually healers more often than not because of the way the role functions. If you are in peril, you usually thank those that are watching out/save your life you know.
There is no lack of clerics, a group of smart people takes 2 clerics in their parties creating an unbalance for everyone else in the game and the queue system is forced to put you with a bunch of Lonely GF and GWF.
lol... Have you played ANY MMO before? Healers and tanks are ALWAYS on demand, and people are always saying there's not enough of them.
There's nothing broken or wrong with healing in this game -- and yes, I do play a cleric. It's vastly different from other games so it takes getting used to but once you do it's a lot more fun than healing in other games.
What does affect the number of healers is, as others said, the potential stress of dealing with keeping the group alive -- and with all the screaming and blame-festing that usually targets a healer -- and THAT is not something that any developer can change because it's human nature.
Another DB reply. Have YOU played an MMO before? Point was most people are playing two classes because two are useless and one is overworked and wanted x2 per dungeon the most.
I hate when people say things like this because its so untrue.
Do you thank the dps when he deals a lot of damage? Do you thank the tank for holding agro?
Everyone is taken for granted, everyone in the team is expected to do their job. I will never understand why healers expect people to say thank you every time you heal, yet the healers are under no obligation to thank the rest of the team for doing their jobs.
Um, what?
Have you played PvP? Guardian fighters are starting to hit harder than rogues thanks to some crazy crit build that's all the rage.
Also if all the classes did the same damage, rogues and GWFs would have nothing to offer. Why bring a rogue along when the cleric can do the same damage, AND heal?
Anyway, the problem with Clerics is Astral shield. Its simply too powerful that it makes the rest of their kit insignificant. They need to nerf the hell out of astral shield and buff up the rest of the clerics kit so a cleric without astral shield is just as useful as one who does have it.
Guardians are worthless in pve. Not many level them up to just solely play pvp. Moot point.
There is no lack of clerics, a group of smart people takes 2 clerics in their parties creating an unbalance for everyone else in the game and the queue system is forced to put you with a bunch of Lonely GF and GWF.
Bingo, but combine that with the fact most characters created in general are TR or CW= lack of clerics.
I think you mean, a group of people who need a crutch. I've solo healed EVERYTHING in the game - a second cleric is so much of a wasted spot when you could just get another TR and the bosses melt that much faster.
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noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
I never tried taking off sooth. I figured it would just be a death sentence. I'll try that some time but if you feel something is broken report it! The dev team will look into it if you send in reports.
The queue system should also be getting improvements as stated in the State of the Game article.
Alright, i will report it, so when you get time to do it, look if there is any difference on it slotted not slottes, i rather want to wear foresight and holy fortune, since i see no effect o.o .
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noobiieeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
I think you mean, a group of people who need a crutch. I've solo healed EVERYTHING in the game - a second cleric is so much of a wasted spot when you could just get another TR and the bosses melt that much faster.
Deistik, i think the same about that, only one cleric that manages well is good, and the spot of the second cleric can go to a needed class, btw im using your build after testing some others and im doing good on it, im not full geared of t2 yet but is amazing the control you can have over the heals and the action you get (meanwhile your team is not a pug of 4 tricksters lol)
Deistik, i think the same about that, only one cleric that manages well is good, and the spot of the second cleric can go to a needed class, btw im using your build after testing some others and im doing good on it, im not full geared of t2 yet but is amazing the control you can have over the heals and the action you get (meanwhile your team is not a pug of 4 tricksters lol)
The reason people take two clerics is not for the extra healing but for astral shield stacking and their crazy cleric agro, which means, the double astral shield makes them take no damage and the cleric agro means they draw every mob without fail, resulting in a flawless tank and healer set up so the three remaining party members can just laugh and deal out damage as they please.
Its also why no one wants a GF, because double cleric tanks better.
The reason people take two clerics is not for the extra healing but for astral shield stacking and their crazy cleric agro, which means, the double astral shield makes them take no damage and the cleric agro means they draw every mob without fail, resulting in a flawless tank and healer set up so the three remaining party members can just laugh and deal out damage as they please.
Its also why no one wants a GF, because double cleric tanks better.
Let me say something about that. Most of the times I have been with double cleric doesnt matter if its premade or pug they relay the job of most healer to one (usually me) and im dissacording of 2 dc instead of 1 dc and 1 gf, if you have a cleric that knows its job you will rather want only 1 cleric not 2 clerics and kill every stuff have more troubles after a time, more in a boss you will need more strategy more damage and more control not 2 clerics stacking the AS and not doing anything else.
That's just not possible.
In order to get in one you have to give in another.
If all the classes dished out the same amount of damage nobody would play a TR because they're too squishy. Guardian fighters would be able to take much more damage without any drawbacks. The same concept applies to Clerics.
The more powerful you are in one aspect the weaker you are in another.
The more damage you give the less damage you can take.
The more life you give the less life you can take.
There isn't a class based system in the world which doesn't follow those basic concepts in some way. They might be more complex like 2nd edition (stronger classes take longer to level) but overall the better you are on one thing the worse you have to be in something else.
Paper, rock, scissors is a simple example of equal power with diversity. Game balance takes time to hone but there are several ways to do it. The bottom line is there is no substitute for high damage output.
Ya wanna know why there are no clerics?
Because everyone and their mother made a TR.
I think this about sums it up. We got people here explaining how they make the class work, almost directly followed by posts with no arguments telling the class is broken.
So, we either have :
a) a broken class, or
b) a lot of people displaying ignorance of their class.
I think b.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Paper, rock, scissors is a simple example of equal power with diversity. Game balance takes time to hone but there are several ways to do it. The bottom line is there is no substitute for high damage output.
Yeah, they all do the same damage but all have their weaknesses.
In order for rock to beat scissors he has to get killed by paper.
A class with good damage which heals itself and others would have no weakness.
Healing classes don't do very much damage. They'll sustain like heck and can be bursty but they don't complete with the damage output of higher DPS Classes without giving up aspects of their sustain.
This isn't really debatable. There is no game in which a healer has equal DPS as a non-healer. It's just not possible to do so without making the class overpowered compared to any other class.
A cleric which did as much damage as a rogue would be completely overpowered.
People do thank clerics sometimes, especially after you've tanked everything and kept them from wiping multiple times.
That being said..... there are a lot of clerics around, or should I say, there were?
Lots have already rerolled to TR or CW, for obvious reasons.
Unless they fix cleric aggro... won't expect to see this situation changing. (and for those people saying nerf astral shield, a cleric without astral shield becomes deadweight)
Also for pvp, why does healing not give points? Who wants to pvp using a cleric then?
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
People do thank clerics sometimes, especially after you've tanked everything and kept them from wiping multiple times.
That being said..... there are a lot of clerics around, or should I say, there were?
Lots have already rerolled to TR or CW, for obvious reasons.
Unless they fix cleric aggro... won't expect to see this situation changing. (and for those people saying nerf astral shield, a cleric without astral shield becomes deadweight)
Also for pvp, why does healing not give points? Who wants to pvp using a cleric then?
Nerf it but bump the other spells up.
The fact you're calling clerics without AS deadweight proves my point. Astral Shield is so good it's blasphemous to not have it shows the spell is overpowered. Problem is it's necessary because the other spells simply can not compete.
And in many ways the game is difficult enough to warrant the level of healing + defense granted from Astral Shield. It's just the only spell which supplies it competently.
That's what game developers look for when balancing games. They check which spells are used the most and the least. Spells which are used the least likely need to get bumped up. Spells which are used the most are likely bumped down.
Every spell, ideally, should be viable and that's just not the case. It's all part of a big balancing issue.
My main is a Cleric and I haven't actually run a dungeon in over a week. Since everyone wants to run with 2 clerics that means the only really decent time for me to run is during a Dungeon Delve event because having to compete with another cleric for any loot means a drastically reduced chance of getting anything for my effort.
Furthermore it means I really only have a desire to do dungeons where I can be certain we will finish the place, which is very much not a certainty anymore for a number of the level 60 tier 2 dungeons.
Finally, and most importantly, the dungeons are all just trash. A lot of trash. Too much trash. After clearing tons and tons of trash you fight a boss which consists of killing trash while one rogue stabs the boss solo.
I'll come back and play more when Im not playing tank/healer of trash 100% of the game.
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ausdoerrtMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The fact you're calling clerics without AS deadweight proves my point. Astral Shield is so good it's blasphemous to not have it shows the spell is overpowered. Problem is it's necessary because the other spells simply can not compete.
And in many ways the game is difficult enough to warrant the level of healing + defense granted from Astral Shield. It's just the only spell which supplies it competently.
That's what game developers look for when balancing games. They check which spells are used the most and the least. Spells which are used the least likely need to get bumped up. Spells which are used the most are likely bumped down.
Every spell, ideally, should be viable and that's just not the case. It's all part of a big balancing issue.
Yeah, lots of higher-tier Cleric spells are just bleh, be it in terms of support or in terms of damage output. Basically, if you want to go with damage, you have to use Daunting Light, support - you have to use AS. And that's kind of lame.
As for the original question, I'd guess the issue is related to most groups going for double clerics, which dries up the supply rather quickly. At OBT launch, clerics looked like 2nd/3rd in terms of population after TR and CW, but even assuming they were equal, if you start stacking 2 per group, half of the TRs/CWs are gonna end up with none at all.
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cihuacoatlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
Problem is lots of folks like to run 2x DC over using a GF. For CN 2xDC is nearly required...
Add in the fact that healers play healers because they like to heal. In this game healers are also tanks, kiters, etc
I personally rerolled my GF to make a DC to tank.. because they do it better than GF.
The lack of variation in builds wouldn't be a problem if they gave people the option to pick any spells they want from the full list of DnD spells. But as it stands we're forced to use what is available to us. Frankly, DDO did a much better job with the cleric than NW does.
As for add aggro in dungeons, yeah that'll be why I don't really bother running dungeons at all at the moment. Maybe in the odd moment when I'm bored...but then I get to a boss fight and remember why I stopped in the first place. I'm thinking of rerolling dps to be honest, at least that way I will not have to worry about dealing with any aggro whatsoever.
Comments
The post above yours does a pretty good job describing it.
I was so thrilled when I got the shield because I knew it would make life easier. The problem is that it makes it too much easier and it's to the point that I will purposely not put it down as often as I can *whistles innocently*
It also makes the gameplay very static. It's put down the shield, throw some seals, maybe cast a separate encounter but overall hold down left click.
As I said previously I would really appreciate some alternatives. The shield should be toned down but I think viable alternatives need to be made as well. In the higher dungeons as boring as the shield makes the gameplay it's simply a bit too difficult without it so it's really a catch 22 situation.
I hate when people say things like this because its so untrue.
Do you thank the dps when he deals a lot of damage? Do you thank the tank for holding agro?
Everyone is taken for granted, everyone in the team is expected to do their job. I will never understand why healers expect people to say thank you every time you heal, yet the healers are under no obligation to thank the rest of the team for doing their jobs.
Um, what?
Have you played PvP? Guardian fighters are starting to hit harder than rogues thanks to some crazy crit build that's all the rage.
Also if all the classes did the same damage, rogues and GWFs would have nothing to offer. Why bring a rogue along when the cleric can do the same damage, AND heal?
Anyway, the problem with Clerics is Astral shield. Its simply too powerful that it makes the rest of their kit insignificant. They need to nerf the hell out of astral shield and buff up the rest of the clerics kit so a cleric without astral shield is just as useful as one who does have it.
I like the Cleric class, I don't use Sooth although I do have it specced. It probably makes it more of a challenge but to me thats part of the fun, staying alive.
People wondering where all the clerics have gone just need some patience in pugs, take the rough with the smooth.
I don't agree with that, its a relatively small area that has to be maintained and often theres too much going on inside the shield to stay in it. If anything they should just make it so the effects cant be stacked.
Please point out where my statements contradict each other?
I whole heartedly agree you are supposed to do additional things. And doing those additional things does not make it any more entertaining. The healing is far from active and fluid. Fluid and action based would require movement, strategy, and those "oh ****" times when everything starts going downhill. Currently there is none of that because of Astral Shield. At the moment the entire concept of dungeon combat in neverwinter revolves around static stationary combat.
I played the Cleric in TERA and I found that to be 10 times as action oriented as the Cleric in Neverwinter. So I have experience in action MMO's. The reality is, the core concept of the game is great, but the functionality of the classes and dungeons is pretty far below what I would consider good.
But that's just my opinion. Some agree, and some disagree.
Many say it's a thankless job because they sacrifice fun to play the support role and babysit others. Have you even played a healer? Everybody always wants one around, but no one wants to take on or step up to the role themselves and there is a reason for this. What he said is true in my experience. Same thing goes for tanks. As dps you can be self reliant and even selfish. You usually aren't concerned with watching out for the whole of the party like a tank or healer. (although, good dps know how to peel/etc.) Why do you think everyone plays one?
And yes, usually I will thank a good player, regardless of class; but it's usually healers more often than not because of the way the role functions. If you are in peril, you usually thank those that are watching out/save your life you know.
Well endgame groups frequently ask for 2 DC 2 CW 1TR while GF are frequently kicked the moment they join a random queue so.....
Another DB reply. Have YOU played an MMO before? Point was most people are playing two classes because two are useless and one is overworked and wanted x2 per dungeon the most.
Because everyone and their mother made a TR.
Most of em' are awful, some of em are decent, and a few are pretty good."
Bingo, but combine that with the fact most characters created in general are TR or CW= lack of clerics.
I think you mean, a group of people who need a crutch. I've solo healed EVERYTHING in the game - a second cleric is so much of a wasted spot when you could just get another TR and the bosses melt that much faster.
Alright, i will report it, so when you get time to do it, look if there is any difference on it slotted not slottes, i rather want to wear foresight and holy fortune, since i see no effect o.o .
Deistik, i think the same about that, only one cleric that manages well is good, and the spot of the second cleric can go to a needed class, btw im using your build after testing some others and im doing good on it, im not full geared of t2 yet but is amazing the control you can have over the heals and the action you get (meanwhile your team is not a pug of 4 tricksters lol)
The reason people take two clerics is not for the extra healing but for astral shield stacking and their crazy cleric agro, which means, the double astral shield makes them take no damage and the cleric agro means they draw every mob without fail, resulting in a flawless tank and healer set up so the three remaining party members can just laugh and deal out damage as they please.
Its also why no one wants a GF, because double cleric tanks better.
I believe this is true. I play a GF and I have near instant dungeon queues.
Let me say something about that. Most of the times I have been with double cleric doesnt matter if its premade or pug they relay the job of most healer to one (usually me) and im dissacording of 2 dc instead of 1 dc and 1 gf, if you have a cleric that knows its job you will rather want only 1 cleric not 2 clerics and kill every stuff have more troubles after a time, more in a boss you will need more strategy more damage and more control not 2 clerics stacking the AS and not doing anything else.
Paper, rock, scissors is a simple example of equal power with diversity. Game balance takes time to hone but there are several ways to do it. The bottom line is there is no substitute for high damage output.
PVP sub50= Easily killed by just about any class
PVP 50+ everyone wants you on the team for AS
PVE=Run around trying to keep the 10+ adds from catching you
Meh...better things to do, sitting parked right now
I think this about sums it up. We got people here explaining how they make the class work, almost directly followed by posts with no arguments telling the class is broken.
So, we either have :
a) a broken class, or
b) a lot of people displaying ignorance of their class.
I think b.
Yeah, they all do the same damage but all have their weaknesses.
In order for rock to beat scissors he has to get killed by paper.
A class with good damage which heals itself and others would have no weakness.
Healing classes don't do very much damage. They'll sustain like heck and can be bursty but they don't complete with the damage output of higher DPS Classes without giving up aspects of their sustain.
This isn't really debatable. There is no game in which a healer has equal DPS as a non-healer. It's just not possible to do so without making the class overpowered compared to any other class.
A cleric which did as much damage as a rogue would be completely overpowered.
That being said..... there are a lot of clerics around, or should I say, there were?
Lots have already rerolled to TR or CW, for obvious reasons.
Unless they fix cleric aggro... won't expect to see this situation changing. (and for those people saying nerf astral shield, a cleric without astral shield becomes deadweight)
Also for pvp, why does healing not give points? Who wants to pvp using a cleric then?
Nerf it but bump the other spells up.
The fact you're calling clerics without AS deadweight proves my point. Astral Shield is so good it's blasphemous to not have it shows the spell is overpowered. Problem is it's necessary because the other spells simply can not compete.
And in many ways the game is difficult enough to warrant the level of healing + defense granted from Astral Shield. It's just the only spell which supplies it competently.
That's what game developers look for when balancing games. They check which spells are used the most and the least. Spells which are used the least likely need to get bumped up. Spells which are used the most are likely bumped down.
Every spell, ideally, should be viable and that's just not the case. It's all part of a big balancing issue.
Furthermore it means I really only have a desire to do dungeons where I can be certain we will finish the place, which is very much not a certainty anymore for a number of the level 60 tier 2 dungeons.
Finally, and most importantly, the dungeons are all just trash. A lot of trash. Too much trash. After clearing tons and tons of trash you fight a boss which consists of killing trash while one rogue stabs the boss solo.
I'll come back and play more when Im not playing tank/healer of trash 100% of the game.
Yeah, lots of higher-tier Cleric spells are just bleh, be it in terms of support or in terms of damage output. Basically, if you want to go with damage, you have to use Daunting Light, support - you have to use AS. And that's kind of lame.
As for the original question, I'd guess the issue is related to most groups going for double clerics, which dries up the supply rather quickly. At OBT launch, clerics looked like 2nd/3rd in terms of population after TR and CW, but even assuming they were equal, if you start stacking 2 per group, half of the TRs/CWs are gonna end up with none at all.
Add in the fact that healers play healers because they like to heal. In this game healers are also tanks, kiters, etc
I personally rerolled my GF to make a DC to tank.. because they do it better than GF.
As for add aggro in dungeons, yeah that'll be why I don't really bother running dungeons at all at the moment. Maybe in the odd moment when I'm bored...but then I get to a boss fight and remember why I stopped in the first place. I'm thinking of rerolling dps to be honest, at least that way I will not have to worry about dealing with any aggro whatsoever.