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Thoughts on end game PVE
wangwong1
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
This is a rant thread and these are my opinions (PVE)
Class Imbalance
That being said, I feel like this game is fundamentally flawed. Of the five classes, only three are useful and the best groups are ones that involve class stacking (2 TR, 2 DC, CW) The fighter class has no role whatsoever, both of them are weak. There is nothing that the fighter classes brings to the table that another class doesn't do better. GF doesn't tank, even good GFs that know how to keep aggro can only keep aggro on a small number of mobs which is laughable considering the entire end game revolves around tons of adds while a CW can manage the adds much better (and actually kill them while they're at it) and for the increasingly popular DPS GF (is that a joke?) there's no reason to bring a GF over a TR. Even in terms of tanking, there really isn't a point to GF since they're completely eclipsed by double shield from DCs which makes everyone a tank regardless of class. GWF's only merit is their AOE damage and that gets blown out of the water by CW, their control is pretty much nonexistant and their single target DPS is absolutely terrible.
Terrible Dungeon Design
Ignoring the plethora of bugs, glitches, and exploits, the boss fights are some of the worst designed fights in any MMO I've played. I mean I complained in pretty explicit detail about the terrible design of Guild Wars 2 bosses and their lack of mechanics but this game takes it to a whole other level of hamhanded design. I could at least give it to ArenaNet that Giganticus was an okay fight but there isn't a single boss in this game that I would consider well designed. There isn't a single boss in heroic dungeons that is difficult in its own right. It's like the developers decided to supplement lack of mechanics with more adds. The fewer mechanics the boss has, the more adds it has. This is lazy and terrible design.
I'm not saying adds are bad in boss fights, but it needs to be implemented with some finesse and purpose to it. An example of where adds are acceptable is during Syndereth's fight in Temple of the Spider or Karrundax's add phase (no his other add phase, really). Syndereth is a DPS race where you must burn the boss and as she loses health, she'll stun her adds and kill them, then make them explode doing knockback aoe damage. This is acceptable and has purpose to the fight. Karrundax leaves the area to let the players deal with his offspring while he attacks them with fireballs from range. While this is an acceptable transition, the problem with it is it doesn't transition into anything accept the same thing the players were doing before. (This same problem applies to the ilithid hivemind in Vault)
Aside from those two, pretty much every other fight is just throwing adds into the fight with no real purpose other than to create the possibility of the group wiping because honestly, you'd have to be coming off the effects of general anesthetics to actually die to these bosses for what mechanics they have in their own right.
Synergy of these Problems
So for all the problems this game has in terms of design, it has potential with its core design but needs some serious reworking in the way it branched out. In order to move towards any kind of end game thats not just an extension of the already terrible dungeon design, class balance must come first. Note that I'm not suggesting that there should be some perfect balance achieved before moving forward, this is unrealistic and a poor model to move forward with. But what I am saying is that the fighter class needs to be brought up to par with other classes to actually be useful. Key points of this would include:
Closing Thoughts
Again, these are just my thoughts on the state of the game. I like this game and feel like it has potential, and while these aren't my only gripes with the game, they're the gripes I have pertaining to general end game PVE content. Honestly, I don't think this game will last long in its current state, I give it a few months tops. This open beta has been more of a cash grab than anything else. If you deny that, just remember that a respec costs zen, and not a reasonably affordable in-game currency amount.
I'm also aware that this post will do nothing. What I'm suggesting is major class balancing and total reworks of current endgame bosses which is too much work for the developers of a game that will likely lose a large portion of its player base before the year is out and subsequently die which is the usual fate of these F2P ARPG games. In spite of this, I am up to discussing class balancing or even going into more specific threads about reworking each individual boss just for my own entertainment.
Class Imbalance
That being said, I feel like this game is fundamentally flawed. Of the five classes, only three are useful and the best groups are ones that involve class stacking (2 TR, 2 DC, CW) The fighter class has no role whatsoever, both of them are weak. There is nothing that the fighter classes brings to the table that another class doesn't do better. GF doesn't tank, even good GFs that know how to keep aggro can only keep aggro on a small number of mobs which is laughable considering the entire end game revolves around tons of adds while a CW can manage the adds much better (and actually kill them while they're at it) and for the increasingly popular DPS GF (is that a joke?) there's no reason to bring a GF over a TR. Even in terms of tanking, there really isn't a point to GF since they're completely eclipsed by double shield from DCs which makes everyone a tank regardless of class. GWF's only merit is their AOE damage and that gets blown out of the water by CW, their control is pretty much nonexistant and their single target DPS is absolutely terrible.
Terrible Dungeon Design
Ignoring the plethora of bugs, glitches, and exploits, the boss fights are some of the worst designed fights in any MMO I've played. I mean I complained in pretty explicit detail about the terrible design of Guild Wars 2 bosses and their lack of mechanics but this game takes it to a whole other level of hamhanded design. I could at least give it to ArenaNet that Giganticus was an okay fight but there isn't a single boss in this game that I would consider well designed. There isn't a single boss in heroic dungeons that is difficult in its own right. It's like the developers decided to supplement lack of mechanics with more adds. The fewer mechanics the boss has, the more adds it has. This is lazy and terrible design.
I'm not saying adds are bad in boss fights, but it needs to be implemented with some finesse and purpose to it. An example of where adds are acceptable is during Syndereth's fight in Temple of the Spider or Karrundax's add phase (no his other add phase, really). Syndereth is a DPS race where you must burn the boss and as she loses health, she'll stun her adds and kill them, then make them explode doing knockback aoe damage. This is acceptable and has purpose to the fight. Karrundax leaves the area to let the players deal with his offspring while he attacks them with fireballs from range. While this is an acceptable transition, the problem with it is it doesn't transition into anything accept the same thing the players were doing before. (This same problem applies to the ilithid hivemind in Vault)
Aside from those two, pretty much every other fight is just throwing adds into the fight with no real purpose other than to create the possibility of the group wiping because honestly, you'd have to be coming off the effects of general anesthetics to actually die to these bosses for what mechanics they have in their own right.
Synergy of these Problems
So for all the problems this game has in terms of design, it has potential with its core design but needs some serious reworking in the way it branched out. In order to move towards any kind of end game thats not just an extension of the already terrible dungeon design, class balance must come first. Note that I'm not suggesting that there should be some perfect balance achieved before moving forward, this is unrealistic and a poor model to move forward with. But what I am saying is that the fighter class needs to be brought up to par with other classes to actually be useful. Key points of this would include:
- Tanking should be made necessary in some form or another. This could be either in terms of bosses actually attacking instead of being a red circle generator or lowering the quantity of adds and upping the quality of them to complement intended mechanics for the class to follow.
- GWF needs a fundamental change. Their AOE is weaker than a CW and provides little to no cc at all, and comparing their single target to a TR is a complete joke. I seriously can't figure out what this class was even supposed to do. I could only guess this was supposed to be some kind of aoe DPS class but again, it can't and in its current state, never will compare to a CW due to how CW aoe works (singularity -> shield slam -> repeat) which moves the mobs around too much and creates a DPS loss for any other class other than the CW doing it.
Closing Thoughts
Again, these are just my thoughts on the state of the game. I like this game and feel like it has potential, and while these aren't my only gripes with the game, they're the gripes I have pertaining to general end game PVE content. Honestly, I don't think this game will last long in its current state, I give it a few months tops. This open beta has been more of a cash grab than anything else. If you deny that, just remember that a respec costs zen, and not a reasonably affordable in-game currency amount.
I'm also aware that this post will do nothing. What I'm suggesting is major class balancing and total reworks of current endgame bosses which is too much work for the developers of a game that will likely lose a large portion of its player base before the year is out and subsequently die which is the usual fate of these F2P ARPG games. In spite of this, I am up to discussing class balancing or even going into more specific threads about reworking each individual boss just for my own entertainment.
Post edited by wangwong1 on
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Comments
Thats where I stopped reading.
Please show me your screenshots of at-level Mad Dragon and Grey Wolf den, done in a pug.
They are difficult.
They are fun.
I don't agree all other mmos are vastly better. AQ, AC, DaOC, Age of Conan, Warhammer, and DDOs (I could go on) boss fights are a joke compared to this.
Only mmo i've seen them done better was TERA, and only some of them.
re: 2nd poster: I like the endgame.
A rather short endgame is still and endgame imo. Yea it's not much content, but it's a brand new mmo, compared to other brand new mmos, I feel its not an unreasonable amount.
I guess some players may define an endgame has "tons of content to do at the end". And well NW will get there some day, expecting it all for the open beta launch isn't reasonable.
(the basics of your post of "buff fighters" I do completely agree with, however many other threads have outlined the issues far more eloquently already).
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
There should be a real distinct value that those classes bring to the table and there just isn't right now.
(I play a DC cleared CN many times now, even solo-healed dracolich in a 4-man once)
Yea some of the endgame dungeons are insanely hard imo. Hardest mmo i've played to win the endgame in fact.
Beat epic dread vault and tell me its easy. I dare ya.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
And if you read further, these boss fights are bad because they lack substance. There's no mechanics to them, it's just adds and don't stand in red circles. Bosses don't do anything interesting or unique in this game, it's just red circle and adds. Every single one of them.
and why would I have screen shots of that? It's not an accomplishment. There isn't a single boss in this game that I think killing would be worthy of merit. These are bland, uninspired, lazily designed fights.
You wouldn't, because you never beat a single one of them.
They are hard. You are not being fair at all to the game.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
Then don't go buy the gear off of the AH...... Really don't understand your point. If you find it boring to do that... DON"T DO IT. Good lord really getting tired of posts like this. If you don't want it to be boring actually go out and earn the end gear. Don't go buy it off the AH then cry b/c you have nothing to do...
Totally beat Me too it lol I absolutely abhor that argument of people talking about buying your endgame gear off of the ah then sitting around. Like that option wasn't available in just about every other MMO previous to this one. This game here you can buy it with real money if that's your thing (zen/ad exchange), other games you could farm for your gold and buy it -shrugs-.
Actually DDO and Warhammer had some decent boss fights, at least they boiled down to more than add spam for their mechanics.
Terrible Dungeon Design
Ignoring the plethora of bugs, glitches, and exploits, the boss fights are some of the worst designed fights in any MMO I've played. I mean I complained in pretty explicit detail about the terrible design of Guild Wars 2 bosses and their lack of mechanics but this game takes it to a whole other level of hamhanded design. I could at least give it to ArenaNet that Giganticus was an okay fight but there isn't a single boss in this game that I would consider well designed. There isn't a single boss in heroic dungeons that is difficult in its own right. It's like the developers decided to supplement lack of mechanics with more adds. The fewer mechanics the boss has, the more adds it has. This is lazy and terrible design.
I'm not saying adds are bad in boss fights, but it needs to be implemented with some finesse and purpose to it. An example of where adds are acceptable is during Syndereth's fight in Temple of the Spider or Karrundax's add phase (no his other add phase, really). Syndereth is a DPS race where you must burn the boss and as she loses health, she'll stun her adds and kill them, then make them explode doing knockback aoe damage. This is acceptable and has purpose to the fight. Karrundax leaves the area to let the players deal with his offspring while he attacks them with fireballs from range. While this is an acceptable transition, the problem with it is it doesn't transition into anything accept the same thing the players were doing before. (This same problem applies to the ilithid hivemind in Vault)
Aside from those two, pretty much every other fight is just throwing adds into the fight with no real purpose other than to create the possibility of the group wiping because honestly, you'd have to be coming off the effects of general anesthetics to actually die to these bosses for what mechanics they have in their own right.
[/QUOTE]
This exactly... I hit 60, got some epic starter gear all excited and then did a few epic dungeons. All the bosses are just add vomitting nobodies. They have 0 mechanics that make any of them interesting and it was just a complete joke.
Rift is going f2p and Elder Scrolls Online is right around the corner... This game will be obsolete if it isn't changed. It's sad too, because the core mechanics are very good. They should not have released an open beta in this state... since it's basically a release and has already killed off some of its potential players.
I find the pirate boss interesting. hes the boss that seems to have the most attacks.
Hopefully, in the future, there'll be a wider array of stuff, so there's things to do when you're tired of queueing. Endgame adventure zones with repeatable quests, maybe reps to earn, etc. Stuff you can do in a pair with a buddy or solo (when you're tired of dealing with a party).
You know I remade a GWF because of those people saying it was a build error on my part. I couldn't get past first part not due to the GWF but because I cleared that first bridge part so much faster on my Wizard, using GWF felt slow and sluggish.
GWF was my first class I choose so first time I didn't know any better. So happy I switched to Wizard when trying to experience other classes.
I have already spent alot of money on this game and would have no problem spending more if they figure things out.
As OP said... all fights are roughly the same...Adds and more adds... and still more and more adds, so the right way to solve them is the "easy 2 Astral shield" mode and then fighters have no place in groups.
The non boss content of the dungeons drop NOTHING, green vendor trash... that's a HUGE deal, tweak it to random drop something of value! lvl 5 enchants, dyes, something that make killing hordes of monstars somewhat worthwile.
STUPIDLY short amount of variety on equipment... is that hard to design a game where you can have almost unique gear? a freaking algorithm that creates epic gear with an appropiate scale of bonus or make it 30 different sets of t1, t2 and t3 gear, its just lazy design not doing that, right now is just get the best set of 4 pieces and youre set and can drop your toon and level another...
Don't get me wrong, game is still fun... but playing it feels like "man this game could have been soooo good" all the time...
At this point, what hope is there for fighter classes in current content. As I said, I think GWF need to get a buff to their single target damage output to make at least comparable to TR. Obviously it shouldn't beat TR since GWF is allegedly an aoe dps class but it would at least make GWF a more viable class.
Obviously the real issue with this is GF being balanced. Current content doesn't need tank classes, it needs DC. GF doesn't fit in with current content and unless that content is also reworked to complement the balance change, it's something I feel will still be made out of context and be ultimately irrelevant. TR will still outshine any DPS, and CW will still crush AOE dps and obviously be the source of CC.
@frari
I completely agree on the trash mobs in the game. While everyone can wax poetic on the "ethics" of skipping trash, truth is there really isn't any reason to kill the trash outside of getting levels for a companion.
I think there's a delicate balance in pacing the dungeon where you have trash mobs, but they aren't so numerous and a few of them with HP bloat so clearing trash becomes very secondary to the dungeon. Certain dungeons like epic spell plague or CN are pretty significant examples on too many mobs with too much HP (Wight commanders, Hulks, Maws, etc.) While granted you can just knock many of the mobs off ledges, the sheer number of mobs is just insane.
Trying to shuffle through CN in the off group that actually wants to kill the mobs is a chore. The sheer number of trash killing pushes the dungeon over two hours of just trash killing for a whopping 4 bosses. And as you mentioned, the trash is literally trash, there are no rare drop epics, nothing unique or special to at least provide some incentive.
This is another good criticism of current dungeon design.
Done that, and as a GF. You know you're a baddie when you think endgame is insanely hard, fun, and not broken. Hell the game gives you 5-7 buttons to press during a boss fight. It doesn't get much more easy mode then that.
^ This was just utterly pointless.
People ARE giving feedback, constantly, reporting what's broken, bugged, imbalanced or exploitable, AND giving constructive advice on how to sort this crapfest of (half) a game out?
And nice to see someone pulling out the "open beta"-card in it's defense; that's original. Oh wait...
Open Beta or not (interesting how they charge money or hard work AD for respecs in a beta btw) this game is flawed, and was released about 4-6 months too early.
3 end game viable classes out of 5 when atleast 8 should be available is just one of many flaws.
The Devs need to hear these concerns, not your fanboy butt kissing, as the latter rarely leads to change.
Jeebus! When was the last time you saw an MMO launch with that many classes?!
I cannot honestly say I can disagree with one opinion posted by OP that is not a fair assessment. Cryptic has their work cut out for them... The story is great (ending doesn't exist - its beta) ...
LOL humm EQ, EQ2, Conan, Rifts, AION, Atlantica, Warhammer, Guild Wars... better question how many started with only 5. That will be much harder one to answer.
This ^
Too many masochists that loves to throw their money away in "Beta".