Your perspective makes total sense and I definitely get where you are coming from. In this particular situation, there are many interconnected systems and any change along these lines requires some very delicate tuning and testing. It's on our list, though it may be some time before we are able to deploy a potential change and collect feedback on it. Sorry for the wait! Thanks for continuing to share your concerns and feedback.
I don't understand how the blocking is something you want to fix but for the threat you need testing and feedback.
Changing block can potentially upset the pvp balance while threat doesn't. How much more testing you need when 99% of the GF tell you that our threat just doesn't work properly. We don't ask for more damage we are asking for the ability to be able to tank reliably. It is the ONE change that will not affect the game in a negative way and you are still thinking about it. I don't understand. Do you WANT the cleric to be the tank in this game???
How is fixing a glitch going to upset pvp balance? So you're saying leave it so GF's think they're blocking but dmg is being let thru so that it's easier to CC them as a wiz? Cause CW isn't already powerful enough in pvp. Really good stuff.
bracer, you are wrong. just. plain. wrong. also, not helpful. sign it if you're having the problem, not if you don't notice it. smh. so because you can't replicate a widely reported problem means that it's not there? lolol. all your contribution does it possibly decrease the urgency of the fix for an actual problem. grats. you must be the most epic GF on your shard. by that of course I mean that you're terrible at replicating/observation and probably have a horribly built gf. gg.
Its an insignificant issue compared to all the melee players not being useful in epic dungeons mate. If block is fixed, And i grant you it does seem a bit slow. That will not help melee units become an asset to a high lvl group. Currently melee units are simply replaceable, and have no role, even a drain on the group in harder epics. I just don't want the bottom line missed for this block thing which wont help melee players consistently access game content.
How is fixing a glitch going to upset pvp balance? So you're saying leave it so GF's think they're blocking but dmg is being let thru so that it's easier to CC them as a wiz? Cause CW isn't already powerful enough in pvp. Really good stuff.
You are totally missing my point i think. I didn't say don't fix that because they should . But if they "fix" that in a wrong way it could upset pvp balance. But giving more threat will have no impact in pvp whatsoever so it should be a no-brainer change for them since it is obviously not working. So IMO their answer should have been like: "We are gonna take some time to make sure that block is working correctly but we are gonna give you more threat RIGHT NOW." What he said was like we are gonna fix the block really soon but we need time to see the threat problem and we do not guarantee we will do anything about it...
I am glad for this honest answer TBH. I am a healer and have alot of issues with agro, but have learned to work around it. I am glad you guys are looking into it and would rather know you don't know how it's going to be fixed yet then for you to tell me some lies.
Thanks.
Re-read the above quote. You didn't 'work around it.' You just adjusted tactics so you aren't getting creamed.
Aggro is just fine. Skilled guardians playing with smart clerics hold aggro just fine.
You can't just spam healing skills and then do burst damage and say the aggro system is broken. If anything, the players' skills are broken.
I'm glad they aren't making this easy. I'm happy that you have to withhold some as a healer and let your defender get aggro. CHANGE TACTICS, NOT GAME MECHANICS!!!
*Legit Community*
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
You are totally missing my point i think. I didn't say don't fix that because they should . But if they "fix" that in a wrong way it could upset pvp balance. But giving more threat will have no impact in pvp whatsoever so it should be a no-brainer change for them since it is obviously not working. So IMO their answer should have been like: "We are gonna take some time to make sure that block is working correctly but we are gonna give you more threat RIGHT NOW." What he said was like we are gonna fix the block really soon but we need time to see the threat problem and we do not guarantee we will do anything about it...
Yup. Block is secondary to threat/aggro. The threat problem is of much greater consequence, and needs fixed weeks ago.
Well... with that being said, I am done with this game.
It's a game breaking problem for most clerics (unless you have well organized groups).
So the game mechanic is broken only if you play with people that are bad? You said it yourself, if you play with a well organized group then the aggro system is balanced. That was the idea the devs had when they came up with the current aggro system. They actually want you to use tactics instead of button mashing...
*Legit Community*
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
0
bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited May 2013
In addition to the aggro issues, I really think GFs need some crazy amount of knock resist while blocking - we can't dodge out of the way of those AoEs, and being knocked prone, even through block, is just ridiculous.
Maybe GFs should get a shield dash ability if you tap a direction twice while blocking.
I'd also like to add that it can be tough at times to keep up with the team, as the other classes will dash ahead using their abilities, while GFs are left hoofing it.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Re-read the above quote. You didn't 'work around it.' You just adjusted tactics so you aren't getting creamed.
Aggro is just fine. Skilled guardians playing with smart clerics hold aggro just fine.
You can't just spam healing skills and then do burst damage and say the aggro system is broken. If anything, the players' skills are broken.
I'm glad they aren't making this easy. I'm happy that you have to withhold some as a healer and let your defender get aggro. CHANGE TACTICS, NOT GAME MECHANICS!!!
It can be held, more occasionally then often when organized. I agree. In one instance aggro can be held at least temporarily. The next day same boss same instance and "mark" seems to do nothing were it worked flawlessly 12 hours earlier. So something still doesn't work right with the threat. In prior D&D editions even in 4e its devastating for an enemy to leave the area of a melee unit. So its seriously lacking though through excessive strategy it can be accomplished ill admit. 9/10 groups dont want to spend said time. Melee units need to function as an asset all of the time.
You are totally missing my point i think. I didn't say don't fix that because they should . But if they "fix" that in a wrong way it could upset pvp balance. But giving more threat will have no impact in pvp whatsoever so it should be a no-brainer change for them since it is obviously not working. So IMO their answer should have been like: "We are gonna take some time to make sure that block is working correctly but we are gonna give you more threat RIGHT NOW." What he said was like we are gonna fix the block really soon but we need time to see the threat problem and we do not guarantee we will do anything about it...
That's fair actually, I think I did miss your point and went right to the net effect of the statement. I got hung up on this:
I don't understand how the blocking is something you want to fix
Thanks for clarifying, I do appreciate your response, and I agree. I misread the intention for sure.
Its an insignificant issue compared to all the melee players not being useful in epic dungeons mate. If block is fixed, And i grant you it does seem a bit slow. That will not help melee units become an asset to a high lvl group. Currently melee units are simply replaceable, and have no role, even a drain on the group in harder epics. I just don't want the bottom line missed for this block thing which wont help melee players consistently access game content.
Thanks for responding way more reasonably than I did to you. But it's not an issue of slowness. It's an issue of what's being shown on the screen not meshing with with what the game is doing. In some circumstances (after certain encounters or after dropping and trying to re-block) you get stuck in shield stance, you can do block-only at-wills, your shield is up, but damage is coming through, you can be knocked over or CC'd, you move at shield stance speed. The way to avoid it is to consciously limit when you hit block - i.e. don't block or re-block for a full 1000 count after taking any other action. But this is a work-around, not a working-as-intended mechanic. No other class gets stuck in a stance or other glitch for second guessing a button-press or using their shift utility after an encounter (for instance on my rogue if I'm in the duelist flurry animation or some other long animation, I can spam dodge so that my rogue moves IMMEDIATELY after the animation finishes with no glitchiness). If there NEEDS to be an internal cooldown at this point, w/e, I'm not a programmer. I'm not going to sit here and tell them what's possible and not possible in their engine. But at the very least they need to make it so that you don't enter block state when damage can come through. It's confusing, awkward, and it just straight up feels glitchy. What we're seeing on screen in an action game should 100% mesh with what the system is reporting. I don't think this should be a conversation of threat vs. block. Just fix both.
A lot of good points are being made here. I am a TR. But, ideally I would rather always run with a group made up of different classes because they are all useful. The threat issue is just ridiculous. GF and GWF must be made essential parts of the team. This should be Cryptic's number 1 priority right now. After that, add content, zen shop, new classes, launch etc. The best thing imo would be for them to shut the game down for a week or two at the most. Get shifts of staff to cover 24/7 till the problems are fixed. After 2 weeks (or less if they don't need that long) do an official launch! That kind of dedication would make me a long term loyal player. But, the reality of it is that I doubt we will see any serious fix for these glaring issues before or even after launch. So, Neverwinter, while I have a lot of fun playing you. You are just filling my time till Wildstar and/or ESO release.
I'm a long time DnD player and a veteran of all sorts of online games... from action adventure co-op, to competitive pvp.
The GF in this game is rubbish. There is an age old formula for classes in pvp that works like paper rock scissors paper.
Glass Cannon>Endurance>Tanks>Glass Cannon.
In this game according to the formula the tank should have advantage over the rogue. I have NEVER seen such a screwed up game where the glass cannons make the tanks go SPLAT.
I watch the guardian fighters in pvp constantly get wasted by rogues.
I see clerics astral shield makes any tank role worthless.
I see SOOO often a GF with 100% health run into any other class with 10% health and not win the fight.
I see GF's holding up shields to defend a point with full health vs 3 enemies and they splat in 2 seconds.
I see clerics and rogues solo defending points vs 4 enemies for 10 to 15 seconds and still escape alive. (GF has no escapes)
Obviously most of this translates into GF having no role in a PVE team also.
If the devs fixed the guard and DOUBLED the meter it would not be enough.
Make the guard reflect 25% damage and maybe......just maybe, they could be a viable option.
I'm a long time DnD player and a veteran of all sorts of online games... from action adventure co-op, to competitive pvp.
The GF in this game is rubbish. There is an age old formula for classes in pvp that works like paper rock scissors paper.
Glass Cannon>Endurance>Tanks>Glass Cannon.
In this game according to the formula the tank should have advantage over the rogue. I have NEVER seen such a screwed up game where the glass cannons make the tanks go SPLAT.
I watch the guardian fighters in pvp constantly get wasted by rogues.
I see clerics astral shield makes any tank role worthless.
I see SOOO often a GF with 100% health run into any other class with 10% health and not win the fight.
I see GF's holding up shields to defend a point with full health vs 3 enemies and they splat in 2 seconds.
I see clerics and rogues solo defending points vs 4 enemies for 10 to 15 seconds and still escape alive. (GF has no escapes)
Obviously most of this translates into GF having no role in a PVE team also.
If the devs fixed the guard and DOUBLED the meter it would not be enough.
Make the guard reflect 25% damage and maybe......just maybe, they could be a viable option.
Heck in pvp I've seen GF's attacking clerics and rogues while they literally stand there and use taunt emotes and ignore the attacks. That is how unthreatening the GF is. You can laugh while they are beating on you.
Now perhaps if you dump 600 dollars into gear and enchantments at level 60 you could be as effective as any other class at level 30.
I would caution the developers against trying to clone the World of Warcraft threat system just because some people on the forums are asking for it. I play a GF and I find that with a cooperative group who understands how the mechanics in this game differ from traditional global-cooldown based online rpg's, there's a useful role that tanks can play in group content. It's just a different role than a tank in World of Warcraft.
I'd prefer this game to embrace that difference and work to develop content around it, rather than just give tanks tons of snap threat and super high aggro abilities like they do in other games.
One thing that I think would be nice is if I had a bigger daily ability self heal. A responsible healer lets me chug some potions while I generate threat on adds after they first show up. It would be nice if the game had a mechanic that allowed some limited healing (on a cooldown) so that I could supply that time to the healer without using a consumable.
I played a gf for a bit(not much mind you) and besides the blocking problem, I found that I had trouble actually locking down targets. I din't play much in parties pve wise but in pvp it seemed like everyone could simply Dodge out of the way and then hit me with whatever they had until i caught up basically it turning into a game where I was trying to catch them while they were hitting me. I can understand the gf being slow, but when it turns into a game of catch the caster it gets annoying. SO yeahs something to grab everything for a fer seconds would be nice.
You kidding me? Aggro is a complex mechanic? Bullocks, complete and utter bullocks.
I guarantee the way your 'aggro' works(if you even call it aggro) is that, DC's come before anything, no matter what. They generate threat just by STANDING around an enemy.
Want to know a fix? Separate your healing and damage dealing threats, make threat per mob and not an encounter, stop pushing DC's and all other classes priorities up so high. I can deal 75% dmg, SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT DAMAGE to any monster and a DC can heal me one time for like 300 damage and the mob will instantly go to the DC. That is NOT a threat mechanic, that's BS.
2 points of damage = 1 point of threat
1 point of healing = 1 point of threat
Look at any other MMO out there with a tank class, most of them have no issues.
For Neverembers sake, model your threat system after EQ2, there is ZERO(0) confusion in the threat system they have. They even have a HUGE FREAKIN UI BUBBLE to tell you when YOU have all of the hate and WHERE others are at on the list.
Please, don't act like threat management in an MMO is some big complicated issue, this is 2013, several other mmo's out there have it down pat, your just lazy.
This is absolutely correct. I have to call BS on the "aggro is a really complex issue" statement. First of all, if aggro calculations really ARE integrated into many other systems, then that's YOUR fault for creating complexity. Second, if you think you can only make minor tweaks to the system and all will be well, then you are looking at the problem too closely and need to step back.
Today, I ran two dungeons as a Control Wizard. Several times I would follow our GF into a room and stop at the doorway while he leapt into battle with multiple mobs well before I even decided which spell to start off with and for no apparent reason, one or two of the mobs would run straight for me even thought the GF was CLEARLY closer and had engaged their friends. How the hell am I getting aggro from doing absolutely nothing while our tank is well within aggro range? Sounds broken to me.
After a week of reading these posts and hoping for some understanding from a dev or, god forbid, a patch to at least put a band-aid on the problem, and then the quagmire that is the blocking issue that took several threads to FINALLY get a "we're looking into it" response, I think the damage is done. Every day that the blocking issue and aggro issue aren't addressed just encourages more players to abandon their GFs. For God's sake, what could be the harm in temporarily "tweaking" a GF's threat generation way up until you either implement a better system, or work out the bugs with it so it works properly? At least then GFs will actually be able to do what they were meant to even if a player sucks at it! As it is right now, even WHEN you go live, GFs will continue to be plagued with the 'broken' stigma. And the bottom line is, if the general perception is that one class is broken in at least one major way, then that will turn away potential players and, ultimately, lose you money.
Now perhaps if you dump 600 dollars into gear and enchantments at level 60 you could be as effective as any other class at level 30.
So you agree that anecdotal 'evidence' from PvP is actually quite useless because you're not able to compare gear-scores.
From my experiences, the agro system is not broken, it's just not stupid. Adds aren't mindless drones that when they pop up unanimously decided to gangbang that one guy with a huge shield. Some actually decide that squishier targets, the one in a dress and the one healing for instance, are the ones to pounce on.
0
thrallgabrielMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
I realized my GF was a broken class around level 20 and decided not to buy any more zen until the class was viable. I had fun getting to 60 soloing quests but I am too embarrassed by my class to waste a groups time by trying to tank dungeons. Now I am 60 and the class is still not fixed. Too bad.
I will be moving on to another game, one in which the classes work. If GF is ever fixed I may come back. I doubt it though as I rarely return to a game once I have left it.
It's refreshing to read about a dev team which takes measured steps towards game balance and mechanic tweaking. I just have one question...
Where exactly was this attitude when you guys hack sawed the **** out of GWF prior to open Beta?
"...very delicate 'tuning'" my ***.
As a GWF and 3 GFs person I burst out laughing, then I got sad. 3 GFs because I didn't want to pay or farm the annoying PVP to respec. I hear people make a lot of diamonds in dungeons. Sounds nice. I actually like GF and GWF a ton, all I do is solo though. Try and kick me from my sol... **Server disconnect** oh.
Your perspective makes total sense and I definitely get where you are coming from. In this particular situation, there are many interconnected systems and any change along these lines requires some very delicate tuning and testing. It's on our list, though it may be some time before we are able to deploy a potential change and collect feedback on it. Sorry for the wait! Thanks for continuing to share your concerns and feedback.
Its nice to see someone respond to questions finally. When are we going to get a forum area to post the issues on then we can clear up the general area for general concerns. We need a spot to post about issues and such. Then you can make stickies on that part of the forum for each main issues. With your responces and any updates that come up.
Why are we the users explaining to you guys who to run a better forum. Should you guys done just alittle research first.
I have some other questions i would like answered. For one WHY was exploits from the CLOSED beta let into the OPenBeta there was like 10 - 12 known expoloits why werent they fixed first. And dont say you didnt know about them, because any idiot that could add and type could of searched expiolts on the net.
0
rragleMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Someone should tell GF'S in pvp about block not working, it might help me with killing them
So you agree that anecdotal 'evidence' from PvP is actually quite useless because you're not able to compare gear-scores.
From my experiences, the agro system is not broken, it's just not stupid. Adds aren't mindless drones that when they pop up unanimously decided to gangbang that one guy with a huge shield. Some actually decide that squishier targets, the one in a dress and the one healing for instance, are the ones to pounce on.
The issue seems to be front and center now at least and understood which is all we can do as a community. Just once more though. Melee units in this game currently have zero role in high lvl PvE group. I cant speak for PvP as i don't like the model and never use it. This major issue of not having an essential role in high lvl parties is simply driving players away.
You're blowing the block bug out of proportions. Me personally I've learned to avoid the bug almost entirely, you just need to learn to wait with holding the block until the last second of an animation. Don't be melodramatic.
It's refreshing to read about a dev team which takes measured steps towards game balance and mechanic tweaking. I just have one question...
Where exactly was this attitude when you guys hack sawed the **** out of GWF prior to open Beta?
"...very delicate 'tuning'" my ***.
omg, funniest post on these forums!.
Blizz is that you ??? Silly Jawas..
edit: is this game really out of closed beta ? LOL. Another 3months and things would have been smoother. Guess we'll see who's left in 3 or 4 months. Least it's 100% free and those like me who truly like it may see a good steady flow of new players to fill the gaps of those who lose hope.
0
zxetMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
the one thing that killed this game for me was the threat issue
I don't think this game is out of alpha with all the issues it has
Comments
I don't understand how the blocking is something you want to fix but for the threat you need testing and feedback.
Changing block can potentially upset the pvp balance while threat doesn't. How much more testing you need when 99% of the GF tell you that our threat just doesn't work properly. We don't ask for more damage we are asking for the ability to be able to tank reliably. It is the ONE change that will not affect the game in a negative way and you are still thinking about it. I don't understand. Do you WANT the cleric to be the tank in this game???
Its an insignificant issue compared to all the melee players not being useful in epic dungeons mate. If block is fixed, And i grant you it does seem a bit slow. That will not help melee units become an asset to a high lvl group. Currently melee units are simply replaceable, and have no role, even a drain on the group in harder epics. I just don't want the bottom line missed for this block thing which wont help melee players consistently access game content.
You are totally missing my point i think. I didn't say don't fix that because they should . But if they "fix" that in a wrong way it could upset pvp balance. But giving more threat will have no impact in pvp whatsoever so it should be a no-brainer change for them since it is obviously not working. So IMO their answer should have been like: "We are gonna take some time to make sure that block is working correctly but we are gonna give you more threat RIGHT NOW." What he said was like we are gonna fix the block really soon but we need time to see the threat problem and we do not guarantee we will do anything about it...
Re-read the above quote. You didn't 'work around it.' You just adjusted tactics so you aren't getting creamed.
Aggro is just fine. Skilled guardians playing with smart clerics hold aggro just fine.
You can't just spam healing skills and then do burst damage and say the aggro system is broken. If anything, the players' skills are broken.
I'm glad they aren't making this easy. I'm happy that you have to withhold some as a healer and let your defender get aggro. CHANGE TACTICS, NOT GAME MECHANICS!!!
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Yup. Block is secondary to threat/aggro. The threat problem is of much greater consequence, and needs fixed weeks ago.
So the game mechanic is broken only if you play with people that are bad? You said it yourself, if you play with a well organized group then the aggro system is balanced. That was the idea the devs had when they came up with the current aggro system. They actually want you to use tactics instead of button mashing...
Heather - Ranger
James - Paladin
Jet - Warlock
Royal - Cleric
Gray - Rogue
Red - Wizard
Ios - Barbarian
Maybe GFs should get a shield dash ability if you tap a direction twice while blocking.
I'd also like to add that it can be tough at times to keep up with the team, as the other classes will dash ahead using their abilities, while GFs are left hoofing it.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
It can be held, more occasionally then often when organized. I agree. In one instance aggro can be held at least temporarily. The next day same boss same instance and "mark" seems to do nothing were it worked flawlessly 12 hours earlier. So something still doesn't work right with the threat. In prior D&D editions even in 4e its devastating for an enemy to leave the area of a melee unit. So its seriously lacking though through excessive strategy it can be accomplished ill admit. 9/10 groups dont want to spend said time. Melee units need to function as an asset all of the time.
That's fair actually, I think I did miss your point and went right to the net effect of the statement. I got hung up on this:
Thanks for clarifying, I do appreciate your response, and I agree. I misread the intention for sure.
Thanks for responding way more reasonably than I did to you. But it's not an issue of slowness. It's an issue of what's being shown on the screen not meshing with with what the game is doing. In some circumstances (after certain encounters or after dropping and trying to re-block) you get stuck in shield stance, you can do block-only at-wills, your shield is up, but damage is coming through, you can be knocked over or CC'd, you move at shield stance speed. The way to avoid it is to consciously limit when you hit block - i.e. don't block or re-block for a full 1000 count after taking any other action. But this is a work-around, not a working-as-intended mechanic. No other class gets stuck in a stance or other glitch for second guessing a button-press or using their shift utility after an encounter (for instance on my rogue if I'm in the duelist flurry animation or some other long animation, I can spam dodge so that my rogue moves IMMEDIATELY after the animation finishes with no glitchiness). If there NEEDS to be an internal cooldown at this point, w/e, I'm not a programmer. I'm not going to sit here and tell them what's possible and not possible in their engine. But at the very least they need to make it so that you don't enter block state when damage can come through. It's confusing, awkward, and it just straight up feels glitchy. What we're seeing on screen in an action game should 100% mesh with what the system is reporting. I don't think this should be a conversation of threat vs. block. Just fix both.
The GF in this game is rubbish. There is an age old formula for classes in pvp that works like paper rock scissors paper.
Glass Cannon>Endurance>Tanks>Glass Cannon.
In this game according to the formula the tank should have advantage over the rogue. I have NEVER seen such a screwed up game where the glass cannons make the tanks go SPLAT.
I watch the guardian fighters in pvp constantly get wasted by rogues.
I see clerics astral shield makes any tank role worthless.
I see SOOO often a GF with 100% health run into any other class with 10% health and not win the fight.
I see GF's holding up shields to defend a point with full health vs 3 enemies and they splat in 2 seconds.
I see clerics and rogues solo defending points vs 4 enemies for 10 to 15 seconds and still escape alive. (GF has no escapes)
Obviously most of this translates into GF having no role in a PVE team also.
If the devs fixed the guard and DOUBLED the meter it would not be enough.
Make the guard reflect 25% damage and maybe......just maybe, they could be a viable option.
Heck in pvp I've seen GF's attacking clerics and rogues while they literally stand there and use taunt emotes and ignore the attacks. That is how unthreatening the GF is. You can laugh while they are beating on you.
Now perhaps if you dump 600 dollars into gear and enchantments at level 60 you could be as effective as any other class at level 30.
I'd prefer this game to embrace that difference and work to develop content around it, rather than just give tanks tons of snap threat and super high aggro abilities like they do in other games.
One thing that I think would be nice is if I had a bigger daily ability self heal. A responsible healer lets me chug some potions while I generate threat on adds after they first show up. It would be nice if the game had a mechanic that allowed some limited healing (on a cooldown) so that I could supply that time to the healer without using a consumable.
This is absolutely correct. I have to call BS on the "aggro is a really complex issue" statement. First of all, if aggro calculations really ARE integrated into many other systems, then that's YOUR fault for creating complexity. Second, if you think you can only make minor tweaks to the system and all will be well, then you are looking at the problem too closely and need to step back.
Today, I ran two dungeons as a Control Wizard. Several times I would follow our GF into a room and stop at the doorway while he leapt into battle with multiple mobs well before I even decided which spell to start off with and for no apparent reason, one or two of the mobs would run straight for me even thought the GF was CLEARLY closer and had engaged their friends. How the hell am I getting aggro from doing absolutely nothing while our tank is well within aggro range? Sounds broken to me.
After a week of reading these posts and hoping for some understanding from a dev or, god forbid, a patch to at least put a band-aid on the problem, and then the quagmire that is the blocking issue that took several threads to FINALLY get a "we're looking into it" response, I think the damage is done. Every day that the blocking issue and aggro issue aren't addressed just encourages more players to abandon their GFs. For God's sake, what could be the harm in temporarily "tweaking" a GF's threat generation way up until you either implement a better system, or work out the bugs with it so it works properly? At least then GFs will actually be able to do what they were meant to even if a player sucks at it! As it is right now, even WHEN you go live, GFs will continue to be plagued with the 'broken' stigma. And the bottom line is, if the general perception is that one class is broken in at least one major way, then that will turn away potential players and, ultimately, lose you money.
-Gil102
So you agree that anecdotal 'evidence' from PvP is actually quite useless because you're not able to compare gear-scores.
From my experiences, the agro system is not broken, it's just not stupid. Adds aren't mindless drones that when they pop up unanimously decided to gangbang that one guy with a huge shield. Some actually decide that squishier targets, the one in a dress and the one healing for instance, are the ones to pounce on.
I will be moving on to another game, one in which the classes work. If GF is ever fixed I may come back. I doubt it though as I rarely return to a game once I have left it.
As a GWF and 3 GFs person I burst out laughing, then I got sad. 3 GFs because I didn't want to pay or farm the annoying PVP to respec. I hear people make a lot of diamonds in dungeons. Sounds nice. I actually like GF and GWF a ton, all I do is solo though. Try and kick me from my sol... **Server disconnect** oh.
Its nice to see someone respond to questions finally. When are we going to get a forum area to post the issues on then we can clear up the general area for general concerns. We need a spot to post about issues and such. Then you can make stickies on that part of the forum for each main issues. With your responces and any updates that come up.
Why are we the users explaining to you guys who to run a better forum. Should you guys done just alittle research first.
I have some other questions i would like answered. For one WHY was exploits from the CLOSED beta let into the OPenBeta there was like 10 - 12 known expoloits why werent they fixed first. And dont say you didnt know about them, because any idiot that could add and type could of searched expiolts on the net.
The issue seems to be front and center now at least and understood which is all we can do as a community. Just once more though. Melee units in this game currently have zero role in high lvl PvE group. I cant speak for PvP as i don't like the model and never use it. This major issue of not having an essential role in high lvl parties is simply driving players away.
There will be no GF willing to tank since block is still bugged.
But its broken and took all the fun out off the class for me.
Its no longer reactive but instead your thinking wait.. wait.. ok now it wont bug.
omg, funniest post on these forums!.
Blizz is that you ??? Silly Jawas..
edit: is this game really out of closed beta ? LOL. Another 3months and things would have been smoother. Guess we'll see who's left in 3 or 4 months. Least it's 100% free and those like me who truly like it may see a good steady flow of new players to fill the gaps of those who lose hope.
I don't think this game is out of alpha with all the issues it has