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A die hard CW begging on behalf of Guardians.

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  • mustgofartmustgofart Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    maiku217 wrote: »
    I keep aggro all the time in CN on my GF. Don't know what the complaints are about. :S

    Mine is with Block.
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  • bracer2bracer2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 566 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    The thing that makes warrior classes so good is the basic fact that AC IS hit or miss, and the critical ancient standard of attacks of opportunity. These two items are necessary to a melee unit in any D&D game. When you cant be hit most of the time because you are wearing +5 FP and a +5 shield, you have to be mobbed to be killed. Also when within 5ft. of any enemies, if they move, say to attack the cleric then you get a free attack on the enemy who is considered flatfooted. Which means it looses all DEX modifiers and dodge modifiers to AC. Thus creating a situation were warrior classes have to be fought as running from them will absolutely get you killed faster, obviously establishing excellent aggro for the melee unit.. Of course we all no that none of this exists and therefor renders melee classes useless. How sad is that? Bruenor Battlehammer, Wulfgar, would be kicked from groups in this game. Jeez that's awful.... incomprehensible to me.
  • codewizardcodewizard Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I just wanted to thank the contributors and OP and Dez for this thread. I was a victim of about 15 wipes in one DD session last night. We all knew that it was the aggro issue (as the Cleric, I could never cope with the ads, and the group could not manage to keep them off me. We all valiantly chatted between each wipe, and continued to try and learn from the experience, but it was too much for us in the end and we gave up after 2+ hours) that was causing our grief, but all of us love the gameplay so much we persisted. Nice to know that we are not alone, and that the problem is being worked on.
  • demattodematto Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    D&D has really nailed that concept pretty solidly in various iterations of the game. Part of the problem here is that this stuff doesn't translate terribly well to an active, immediate environment, despite how much some people say 4e is an mmo. If the game were turn-based, it'd be easier to code in free attacks for the fighters. But as it stands, I think we have to rely on the more traditional mmo-styled threat meters to represent such things.
  • kargisterkargister Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Fixing block and agro for GF's would be a very good start. Something else you may want to look at changing is their defense values, allow them to get more mitigation than other classes from the stat so they can take more damage. You know, like a tank. Right now theres not a whole lot of difference between my GF's plate mail and CW's cloth.

    Whatever happens, it was good to get an honest reply about whats going on. Thanks for the heads up.
  • itheryelitheryel Member Posts: 335 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Instead of giving them %defense heroic feats, wouldent %damage reduction feats be more powerfull overall? (for gf/gwf?)
    ore would this result in the same flat reduction as if it where defense%? i think the DR would be higher if they upped that with 25%?
    I mean imagine if they fixed the aggro problem tomorow, wouldent all GF/GWF just wipe instantly?
    (could they also not make threat count the defense? like damage/75%defense ore so calculated for thread? so max tanks could benefit from threat instead of having to go max dps just to hold some threat?)
    Petram Sacram - I am no devine cleric, i am a Gaurdian fighter in disguise with better threat and supportive spells -
  • blaumkerblaumker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 75
    edited May 2013
    dezstravus wrote: »
    Your perspective makes total sense and I definitely get where you are coming from. In this particular situation, there are many interconnected systems and any change along these lines requires some very delicate tuning and testing. It's on our list, though it may be some time before we are able to deploy a potential change and collect feedback on it. Sorry for the wait! Thanks for continuing to share your concerns and feedback. :)

    Have to agree here---on many occasions I can hold aggro with relative ease versus someone who is obviously outdamaging me, and at times against people outhealing my damage output. At other times, I simply cannot do a thing.

    For example, a couple of weeks ago, I had a skirmish boss that positively would not pull off of a TR. He stopped attacking and literally jumped circles around the boss with me furiously marking and hitting, hitting and marking, cleaving, jabbing, using high damage encounters, etc. It was a boss I'd done before, I know that threat works against it, but on this occasion it simply would not peel. The heals dumped into the TR didn't peel it either, despite the well known tendency for heal aggro to be extreme.

    I have no way of explaining how such a situation happens, it's just not as simple as a threat number bump. Something in the system is allowing targets to over prioritize or even fixate regardless of any base threat scale.

    Looking forward to seeing what comes of this!
  • cihuacoatlcihuacoatl Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dezstravus wrote: »
    Aggro is a more complex subject - I don't have a lot of info regarding that right now but I do know that that feedback regarding tanking/healing aggro is something the team is looking at. Right now there are no concrete plans regarding a specific change, but it is something that is being reviewed. Thanks for clarifying. :)

    Basically he is saying anyone that is playing a GF best just reroll.

    I am rolling a Cleric so I can tank.

    What are you guys going to be?
  • bracer2bracer2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 566 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    blaumker wrote: »
    Have to agree here---on many occasions I can hold aggro with relative ease versus someone who is obviously outdamaging me, and at times against people outhealing my damage output. At other times, I simply cannot do a thing.

    For example, a couple of weeks ago, I had a skirmish boss that positively would not pull off of a TR. He stopped attacking and literally jumped circles around the boss with me furiously marking and hitting, hitting and marking, cleaving, jabbing, using high damage encounters, etc. It was a boss I'd done before, I know that threat works against it, but on this occasion it simply would not peel. The heals dumped into the TR didn't peel it either, despite the well known tendency for heal aggro to be extreme.

    I have no way of explaining how such a situation happens, it's just not as simple as a threat number bump. Something in the system is allowing targets to over prioritize or even fixate regardless of any base threat scale.

    Looking forward to seeing what comes of this!

    Ive encountered the same thing on a consistent bases. Holding aggro, holding aggro for the whole fight. The next day, same boss same same GF. Not holding any aggro not holding any aggro. Can someone please refer me to an actual list of rules based on factual numbers that determine aggro for this game. Actually i would very much like to see a rulebook regarding all the mechanics of this game in general. Plz dont say 4.0. I already have that and nothing there matches.
  • cetra07cetra07 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    nam19772 wrote: »
    We're still in beta, I suppose it would be nice to have such things as aggro fine tuned for release.

    lol anyone can play neverwinter and the zen store and astral diamonds are in. Real money is being made.

    Is there really a fricking difference between beta or release? You can even call it open alpha, open charlie, open deta if you want. Its just a term.

    Cryptic can hide behind the beta curtain while taking in 100% revenue from he game.

    One month since "open beta" THERE HAS BEEN ZERO FIXES AND IMPROVEMENTS TO THE CORE GAME. Its all about fixing exploits that impact their profits.

    Good business. Ppl paying for a half finished game while the devs took their own sweet time to fix the game. Its open beta. ROFL.
  • bracer2bracer2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 566 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Well, they say there working on it so its what we got. Just to be clear though. The issue isn't this block thing which i don't even notice, my block works great. I think what the OP is saying is that melee units need to be a group asset and an integral part of the game. Fixing not fixing block is of no consequence. GFs will not be essential to groups no matter what happens with block.
  • millertime197933millertime197933 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 124 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Simple solution...make the GF a paladin and give them a heal spell. They will then hold agro.....
  • mievhmievh Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 106 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    dezstravus wrote: »
    Aggro is a more complex subject - I don't have a lot of info regarding that right now but I do know that that feedback regarding tanking/healing aggro is something the team is looking at. Right now there are no concrete plans regarding a specific change, but it is something that is being reviewed. Thanks for clarifying. :)

    So you say the team doesn't really care about players, and no plans are set for fixing something that's been around for months.

    Did you even tested the game yourself?

    How are we supposed to play Guardian Fighters and Divine Clerics, then, if threat-related powers and talents don't work?

    Are you going to gift me a free Respec Coupon, for all the points I've wasted, or do you want me to pay you money for them?
    Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality.
  • aladnisaladnis Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dezstravus wrote: »
    Aggro is a more complex subject - I don't have a lot of info regarding that right now but I do know that that feedback regarding tanking/healing aggro is something the team is looking at. Right now there are no concrete plans regarding a specific change, but it is something that is being reviewed. Thanks for clarifying. :)
    Well... with that being said, I am done with this game.

    It's a game breaking problem for most clerics (unless you have well organized groups) and it makes the role of healing so difficult to enjoy that I'd rather an hero at this point than to continue to play this travesty of a game. It probably wouldn't be this bad if the group making tool didn't stack groups with 700 rogues, 1 cleric and a CW who never heard of 90% of their spells.

    There will be other f2p MMOs around the corner soon. Hopefully, none of them will have the dismissive attitude that you guys have exhibited toward the community thus far, and this is only considered an "open beta" at this point.

    No concrete plans, indeed. The most ridiculous thing I've ever heard concerning game-breaking bugs.

    Glad I only spent very little money on Zen in order to support development. Sadly, it seems development doesn't give a darn at all.

    Thanks for nothing.
    Fletchette F. Fletch
    newbie rogue extraordinaire
  • simkinfoolsimkinfool Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    One of my primary concerns is the bugs with Knight's Valor, KV is basically GFs version of Astral Shield (redirects 50% of party members incoming damage to themselves, and it's supposed to increase their threat vs the target that dealt damage accordingly).

    To me this seems like it should be a huge core tanking skill.

    There are however 3 problems with it at the moment. Well two bugs and one maybe bug/maybe miscommunication.

    1) This is the big one, it's a bug that after you have used the skill a couple times in a dungeon/mission/whatever appears to randomly completely disable the skill. The only way to get it to work again is to zone or relog.

    2) The skill randomly decides to not protect a target, they can be standing on your head and it simply refuses to apply the buff to them.

    3) This is the confusing one, the skill has a listed cool down of 12 seconds and a duration of 6/8/10 seconds. The confusing part is that it cools down twice. After using the skill it will be lit up and cooling down. When it finishes cooling down it will be greyed out and cool down a second time.

    The reason #3 is confusing is this, it might be possible this is the intended function and perhaps when it's in use you should be able to hit it again to shut it off (you cannot). If that's the plan the bug is that you cannot hit it again to shut it off and the miscommunication is that the tooltip doesn't mention that it will not cool down while active (unlike every single other spell in the game). Or perhaps the bug is that it's not intended to cool down twice.

    This one single skill alone stacks and scales better with AS than another AS ever could. Which is probably the intended design, however since it's currently broken beyond use....
  • comaetilicocomaetilico Member Posts: 69
    edited May 2013
    simkinfool wrote: »
    One of my primary concerns is the bugs with Knight's Valor, KV is basically GFs version of Astral Shield (redirects 50% of party members incoming damage to themselves, and it's supposed to increase their threat vs the target that dealt damage accordingly).

    To me this seems like it should be a huge core tanking skill.

    There are however 3 problems with it at the moment. Well two bugs and one maybe bug/maybe miscommunication.

    1) This is the big one, it's a bug that after you have used the skill a couple times in a dungeon/mission/whatever appears to randomly completely disable the skill. The only way to get it to work again is to zone or relog.

    2) The skill randomly decides to not protect a target, they can be standing on your head and it simply refuses to apply the buff to them.

    3) This is the confusing one, the skill has a listed cool down of 12 seconds and a duration of 6/8/10 seconds. The confusing part is that it cools down twice. After using the skill it will be lit up and cooling down. When it finishes cooling down it will be greyed out and cool down a second time.

    The reason #3 is confusing is this, it might be possible this is the intended function and perhaps when it's in use you should be able to hit it again to shut it off (you cannot). If that's the plan the bug is that you cannot hit it again to shut it off and the miscommunication is that the tooltip doesn't mention that it will not cool down while active (unlike every single other spell in the game). Or perhaps the bug is that it's not intended to cool down twice.

    This one single skill alone stacks and scales better with AS than another AS ever could. Which is probably the intended design, however since it's currently broken beyond use....

    a little addition to the bug list of KV... the buff end as soon as u get CCed... just a little push and KV buff is lost...-_-' it make it of limited use in PVE (where most add in a boss fight tunr the field into a carpet of CC...) and totally useless in PvP where CC fly out all the time (between CW, TR smoke bomb and other random CC...)
  • admanteadmante Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dezstravus wrote: »
    Aggro is a more complex subject - I don't have a lot of info regarding that right now but I do know that that feedback regarding tanking/healing aggro is something the team is looking at. Right now there are no concrete plans regarding a specific change, but it is something that is being reviewed. Thanks for clarifying. :)

    What do you guys see the role of GF's to be? Currently they do comparable or less damage than CW's while providing less control and a lot more chasing after mobs. Without the ability to properly aggro, I really don't understand what you guys expect GF's to accomplish within a team. I as well as many others believe this is a rather high priority issue even if complex.
  • dystarrdystarr Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    simkinfool wrote: »
    One of my primary concerns is the bugs with Knight's Valor, KV is basically GFs version of Astral Shield (redirects 50% of party members incoming damage to themselves, and it's supposed to increase their threat vs the target that dealt damage accordingly).

    To me this seems like it should be a huge core tanking skill.

    There are however 3 problems with it at the moment. Well two bugs and one maybe bug/maybe miscommunication.

    1) This is the big one, it's a bug that after you have used the skill a couple times in a dungeon/mission/whatever appears to randomly completely disable the skill. The only way to get it to work again is to zone or relog.

    2) The skill randomly decides to not protect a target, they can be standing on your head and it simply refuses to apply the buff to them.

    3) This is the confusing one, the skill has a listed cool down of 12 seconds and a duration of 6/8/10 seconds. The confusing part is that it cools down twice. After using the skill it will be lit up and cooling down. When it finishes cooling down it will be greyed out and cool down a second time.

    The reason #3 is confusing is this, it might be possible this is the intended function and perhaps when it's in use you should be able to hit it again to shut it off (you cannot). If that's the plan the bug is that you cannot hit it again to shut it off and the miscommunication is that the tooltip doesn't mention that it will not cool down while active (unlike every single other spell in the game). Or perhaps the bug is that it's not intended to cool down twice.

    This one single skill alone stacks and scales better with AS than another AS ever could. Which is probably the intended design, however since it's currently broken beyond use....

    I agree. In fact a good fix would be to not only make this skill absorb damage, but also threat. If you are able to keep up a threat stealing aoe for 10/12 seconds, during astral shield or whatever, then that should greatly enhance the guardians ability to keep mobs off the DC.
  • comaetilicocomaetilico Member Posts: 69
    edited May 2013
    admante wrote: »
    What do you guys see the role of GF's to be? Currently they do comparable or less damage than CW's while providing less control and a lot more chasing after mobs. Without the ability to properly aggro, I really don't understand what you guys expect GF's to accomplish within a team. I as well as many others believe this is a rather high priority issue even if complex.

    can u really expect a fix of a COMPLEX problem by a team that can't fix (and as already declared twice to have done so... and this mean that the "they have more urgent and important thigs to work on" is not a valid argument -_-') the sorting of the AH? hell... it is just a query... and it is also working in their external interface (the gataway) -_-'
  • aladnisaladnis Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    can u really expect a fix of a COMPLEX problem by a team that can't fix (and as already declared twice to have done so... and this mean that the "they have more urgent and important thigs to work on" is not a valid argument -_-') the sorting of the AH? hell... it is just a query... and it is also working in their external interface (the gataway) -_-'
    Sadly, everything you've said is pure fact.

    They only seem to be able to fix things when it threatens real money. When it threatens the Zen market. When it is players exploiting anything having to do with Astral Diamonds, Gold, Item Duplication and Zen. Why? Because all of that stuff helps to create the buzz to drive people to the Zen store.

    Sadly, this game is going to die a slow and agonizing death because of this. It's sad, really, because the game is fun until you get into tier2 and such and you have to do nothing more than die repeatedly because even death won't wipe the aggro from your chosen class (Devoted Cleric in my case).

    R.I.P. Neverwinter 2013
    Fletchette F. Fletch
    newbie rogue extraordinaire
  • karaadkaraad Member Posts: 89
    edited May 2013
    dezstravus wrote: »
    Aggro is a more complex subject - I don't have a lot of info regarding that right now but I do know that that feedback regarding tanking/healing aggro is something the team is looking at. Right now there are no concrete plans regarding a specific change, but it is something that is being reviewed. Thanks for clarifying. :)

    You kidding me? Aggro is a complex mechanic? Bullocks, complete and utter bullocks.

    I guarantee the way your 'aggro' works(if you even call it aggro) is that, DC's come before anything, no matter what. They generate threat just by STANDING around an enemy.

    Want to know a fix? Separate your healing and damage dealing threats, make threat per mob and not an encounter, stop pushing DC's and all other classes priorities up so high. I can deal 75% dmg, SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT DAMAGE to any monster and a DC can heal me one time for like 300 damage and the mob will instantly go to the DC. That is NOT a threat mechanic, that's BS.

    2 points of damage = 1 point of threat
    1 point of healing = 1 point of threat

    Look at any other MMO out there with a tank class, most of them have no issues.

    For Neverembers sake, model your threat system after EQ2, there is ZERO(0) confusion in the threat system they have. They even have a HUGE FREAKIN UI BUBBLE to tell you when YOU have all of the hate and WHERE others are at on the list.

    Please, don't act like threat management in an MMO is some big complicated issue, this is 2013, several other mmo's out there have it down pat, your just lazy.
  • dahkohtlewdahkohtlew Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Hey NW devs , leave out anything about aggro , I get that's too complex for you to get to and fix. How about a word on that guardian fix for block.

    You broke it last weekend-ish , just let us know if it's done and you can't/won't at least fix it back to where it was working before , the continued silence is just another slap in the face.

    For once , man up and just say it's not going to be fixed or something.
  • mavalonmavalon Member Posts: 88
    edited May 2013
    dahkohtlew wrote: »
    Hey NW devs , leave out anything about aggro , I get that's too complex for you to get to and fix. How about a word on that guardian fix for block.

    You broke it last weekend-ish , just let us know if it's done and you can't/won't at least fix it back to where it was working before , the continued silence is just another slap in the face.

    For once , man up and just say it's not going to be fixed or something.

    Yes please, we are looking into it is kinda vague.
    Before module 1?
    In module 1?
    Long term?

    Can it be fixed to like it was before?
    Are there plans to make it function completely different?
  • miguksarammiguksaram Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dezstravus wrote: »
    Your perspective makes total sense and I definitely get where you are coming from. In this particular situation, there are many interconnected systems and any change along these lines requires some very delicate tuning and testing. It's on our list, though it may be some time before we are able to deploy a potential change and collect feedback on it. Sorry for the wait! Thanks for continuing to share your concerns and feedback. :)

    Dez your response to the above is appreciated, thank you. Most of us come from a typical trinity-based MMO background and thus have a preconceived notion of what we think the threat system in Neverwinter should be. Perhaps the issue is that was never intended to be the system used in Neverwinter given it's more action oriented playstyle and the fact all classes have at least someway to avoid or absorb damage. So with that said could you please expound upon the developers vision on how they feel threat is intended be handled in Neverwinter?
  • bracer2bracer2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 566 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    dahkohtlew wrote: »
    Hey NW devs , leave out anything about aggro , I get that's too complex for you to get to and fix. How about a word on that guardian fix for block.

    You broke it last weekend-ish , just let us know if it's done and you can't/won't at least fix it back to where it was working before , the continued silence is just another slap in the face.

    For once , man up and just say it's not going to be fixed or something.

    Well aggro is touching on the issue for sure as melee units currently cannot assist a high lvl group. The shield thing is of zero consequence as all that does is take the focus off the real issue. Which is of course melee units not being able to consistently access end game content and there role, and functionality in a high lvl party. Its there role in a party that needs addressing. No matter what is done with block that wont make a GF "fit" any better or be more desirable to a T2 group.
  • pednickpednick Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Yeah my main is GF, my only character so far, I'm level 54 now, right now I just use block when it's absolutely necessary, doing alot of running around instead, LOL.
    Be a Leet D00D, can't think of something smart? Always blame the economy.
  • sweetjersweetjer Member Posts: 33
    edited May 2013
    dezstravus wrote: »
    Hey Dystarr-

    We are looking into the issue regarding Guardian Fighter Block and hope to have more info soon. Thanks for voicing your concerns!

    Thank you so much for the appropriate and customer service-oriented response! I truly appreciate it as convincing the forum that there is an issue here has been a pretty uphill battle (this is, to my count, the fifth thread regarding it, and the first prompt and appropriate reply). I'm wondering, though, where we should be looking for updates on this? I know a lot of these kinds of fixes don't get included patchnotes for some reason. Is there any kind of timeline? I know we've been patched at least twice since I started seeing the issue.
  • bracer2bracer2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 566 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    pednick wrote: »
    Yeah my main is GF, my only character so far, I'm level 54 now, right now I just use block when it's absolutely necessary, doing alot of running around instead, LOL.

    Enjoy your next 6 lvls and T1 dungeons mate. After that unless there's a major threat/aggro change you'll be scratching your head as any decent rogue can currently replace your skill set and do a better job at it.
  • bracer2bracer2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 566 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    The blocks a non-issue. Mine works fine, no problems. Gfs have no role in the game is the issue....nor do GWFs. The block is nothing.. jeez.
  • sweetjersweetjer Member Posts: 33
    edited May 2013
    bracer, you are wrong. just. plain. wrong. also, not helpful. sign it if you're having the problem, not if you don't notice it. smh. so because you can't replicate a widely reported problem means that it's not there? lolol. all your contribution does it possibly decrease the urgency of the fix for an actual problem. grats. you must be the most epic GF on your shard. by that of course I mean that you're terrible at replicating/observation and probably have a horribly built gf. gg.
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