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Chat banned again...

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  • clcmercyclcmercy Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 308 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    shahualing wrote: »
    Yep, you got chat banned for spamming trade in zone chat. It's going to happen whether you like it or not. See my signature, thank you!

    And see MINE for the game DEVELOPERS intended usage for the report spam function. RMT only. Any other use is abuse, so quit exploiting a broken game feature. Good day.

    Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
  • kissell19kissell19 Member Posts: 57
    edited June 2013
    bamzilla16 wrote: »
    I just got silenced while - just like everyone else - posting LFG for dungeon delves pre-clear group. Guess I was posting too fast, though I didn't think so... Sigh. Annoying as hell.

    They need to sort the chat system, and I don't mean remove the silence function but certainly make more chat threads. If I was posting in a dedicated LFG chat, I wouldn't have been silenced.

    See you tomorrow, Neverwinter!

    Pre clearing for dungeon delves, Im almost positive, is an exploit. So just be happy that is was only a chat spam ban.
  • demattodematto Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    For what it's worth clcmercy, the extended FAQ for neverwinter differs a bit. Direct quote.
    SECTION VII - SUPPORT

    How does the automatic chat mute system work and what should I do if I am muted?

    The goal of this technology is to minimize the amount of "gold spam" and other forms of inappropriate chat.
    Then again, the same source also says "Our team actively monitors for these occurrences" and "In the event that your account is muted, the best action to take is to wait for the mute to expire."
  • bamzilla16bamzilla16 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kissell19 wrote: »
    Pre clearing for dungeon delves, Im almost positive, is an exploit. So just be happy that is was only a chat spam ban.

    Just be happy?? They will have to ban the entire community then!!! EVERYONE DOES IT. And when everyone does it, no one can get banned. So thanks for your input.
  • demattodematto Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bamzilla16 wrote: »
    when everyone does it, no one can get banned.

    Caturday says hi.
  • bamzilla16bamzilla16 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    dematto wrote: »
    Caturday says hi.

    A very few people made out with a whole lot of $$$. They only banned the people who profitted significantly. And that's a horrible comparison. DD preclear does not even begin to compare.
  • terradraconisterradraconis Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bamzilla16 wrote: »
    Just be happy?? They will have to ban the entire community then!!! EVERYONE DOES IT. And when everyone does it, no one can get banned. So thanks for your input.

    Ah yes. Just tell that to everyone else who got banned for doing "what everyone else was doing."

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • terradraconisterradraconis Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bamzilla16 wrote: »
    A very few people made out with a whole lot of $$$. They only banned the people who profitted significantly. And that's a horrible comparison. DD preclear does not even begin to compare.

    sure it does. It is clearly an exploit designed to take advantage of a game mechanic. A mechanic that is setup for you to start and end the dungeon during the designated hour. I suppose that as a fix they could set it up so that if a dungeon is cleared within the first 30 minutes of an hour it awards nothing. That would be fair ... right?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bamzilla16bamzilla16 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Ah yes. Just tell that to everyone else who got banned for doing "what everyone else was doing."

    Honestly, I'm appalled. "what everyone else was doing" is not jumping off a bridge because my friend did it. "What everyone else was doing" is a comment on significant issues that dev's overlook - or are too slow to fix.
  • bamzilla16bamzilla16 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    sure it does. It is clearly an exploit designed to take advantage of a game mechanic. A mechanic that is setup for you to start and end the dungeon during the designated hour. I suppose that as a fix they could set it up so that if a dungeon is cleared within the first 30 minutes of an hour it awards nothing. That would be fair ... right?

    Yes it would be fair. I am not aruging FOR the exploit. I am arguing that everyone can't be banned because it is a clear problem. And it has a domino effect down to the chat ban (my initial complaint).
  • terradraconisterradraconis Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bamzilla16 wrote: »
    Yes it would be fair. I am not aruging FOR the exploit. I am arguing that everyone can't be banned because it is a clear problem. And it has a domino effect down to the chat ban (my initial complaint).

    Sure they can ban everyone using it. Cryptic has done it before.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • kissell19kissell19 Member Posts: 57
    edited June 2013
    It takes 21 people hitting the spam report before you receive a ban. People complaining about this were spamming period. If you weren't then 21 people wouldn't have reported you!
  • bamzilla16bamzilla16 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Sure they can ban everyone using it. Cryptic has done it before.

    That would be pretty lame, imho. You have to look at the whole picture, right? If 95% (arbitrary number but it serves the purpose of an undoubted majority) of the gaming community are using the DD event in this manner, then the DD event needs to be changed. But to punish the 95% for such a blatant issue? Not so clear cut to me.
  • bamzilla16bamzilla16 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kissell19 wrote: »
    It takes 21 people hitting the spam report before you receive a ban. People complaining about this were spamming period. If you weren't then 21 people wouldn't have reported you!

    Yes I get all that and I understand and I've done my share of reporting spammers. My point is if I was posting the same way as I was in a dedicated LFG chat, odds are fairly high that this wouldn't have happened. That's all I'm saying.

    And I do a lot of posting in Zone chat...for LFG and trades. And I am not a spammer. This was very surprising for me. I admit I must have been posting a bit too fast, but I'm not like those "Buy gold for $" sites that post 10 times in a row in rainbow colours.
  • merinormerinor Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    no offense but it's wrong to outright ban someone for advertising. Once every 20 minutes from some guy in one of the desolate zones is better than a unfriendly atmosphere where nothing communicates except for the nearby orcs.

    You can't just up and cut someone's head off because he's yelling about his cheap beer at a beach front, just because you own a liquor store.
  • clcmercyclcmercy Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 308 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    kerlaa wrote: »
    A simple solution to prevent this in the future.

    Get out of Protecter's Enclave. That's where all the supposed chat spam occurs.

    If we all just get out of the zone, then this would not happen again.

    There. Fixed for truth. I've been in the game since open beta launch, and yes. Protecter's Enclave is indeed, the ONLY zone sales occur in. Head to a gate and zone to any one of the other instances in the game and blessed silence.

    So, all these people that are complaining are just too lazy to make their own channel to talk in(but they sure do want someone else to make their own channel to trade in), too lazy to move out of the zone(read: like to grief using a broken chat feature), and can't be bothered to remove zone from chat tabs. Y'know....all the easy solutions.

    Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
  • faeriestormfaeriestorm Member Posts: 460 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    vikkus wrote: »
    Perhaps a Global Trade channel should be put into place. Like every other MMO out there.
    This is a much needed feature. Also, please fix the bug where guild officer chat is only sometimes available..
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • blaumkerblaumker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 75
    edited June 2013
    verdonix1 wrote: »
    You are much to broad here... If you get a Viagra email in your inbox you flag that sender as spam and YOU never see it again..... you do not effect the other people who do, as it should be. There may be people who would order from that mailing and NOT find it spam.... what makes you think YOU should dictate to THEM what they can see or not??? I see no problem with selling in Zone chat, that it what it is there for, and I challenge ANTONE to show me in writing from Cryptic/PWE where it says different, yes I realize it does not say it is either, that is my point!!

    It's spam, it's not really a matter of opinion. If for some reason a person receives spam and says "oh goody, I got spam that I'm real interested in!!".........it's still spam. It's universally recognized by the filter as spam, because it is the sort of thing that a great many have stated they do not want a mass communicated attempt to sell unwanted merchandise by an unsolicited merchant in their inbox. ANYTHING that fits that criteria winds up there.

    If a couple guys are real interested in bargain basement viagra, well, sorry guys. The other twenty thousand people that got the same message aren't, so it's going to continue to wind up in your spam filter.

    It's the same here. A great many do not want the garbage merchants in their zone. The players are the filter. It filters it from you(puts it in your recycle bin, if you will) if you report spam, and you don't have to see it anymore. If enough people do the very same thing, the person gets muted because there is a large enough consensus that what you are doing is, indeed, spam that the kind folks making the game feel that it's just better to not have you communicating with anyone.

    And again, same thing here. Just because a couple of guys want to buy things from here doesn't mean the other thousand want to see it.

    As best I can tell, none of this is just my opinion. It is the actual functionality of how the entire system works both in your e-mail AND in this game.

    As an aside, I only report things that I personally perceive as spam. For me personally, it is anything I see too often, or in all caps, containing language inappropriate to be shouted to a crowd(essentially what a /zone chat is), or containing "flash" such as a line of asterisks to draw attention to the carny hawking his wares. I also report gold sellers as a matter of course, and I doubt anyone would disagree with that action despite that fact that somebody, somewhere, actually uses their services.


    I'm not saying it's a perfect system. There is a ton of room for abuse, and the primary abuse I see as a possibility is butthurt spam merchants abusing the system on innocents as an act of revenge. The same thing also seems like a natural progression of poor sportsmanship stemming from PvP activities or loot disagreements.

    The fact that spam reports don't roll away over time is extremely shortsighted. I can't see a good way to justify this. Some level of roll-off must surely be appropriate.

    There is no excuse for a game made in 2013 lacking a trade channel that is apart from the main zone chat. For real, it's pretty irresponsible of a game maker to put four forms of currency in a game, one form on the AH, and no proper venue to utilize the others in the player economy. It basically begs for the poor behavior that the spam report is designed to curtail. I'm not entirely unsympathetic.
  • clcmercyclcmercy Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 308 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    blaumker wrote: »
    *A bunch of completely useless drivel.*

    The only developer approved usage of the report spam function is linked in my signature. By applying one's PERSONAL definitions, one becomes a griefer, and therefore part of the problem.

    The.
    Only.
    Acceptable.
    Use.
    Of.
    The.
    Report.
    Spam.
    Feature.
    Is.
    To.
    Use.
    It.
    On.
    Real Money Traders.

    If you're using it on anyone else, you're griefing. Period. The main problem with the whole chat ban thing is that IGNORE also mutes if enough people ignore you. THAT needs to disappear. Permanently. Leave the rest of it and start punishing the idjits misusing report spam.

    Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
  • bamzilla16bamzilla16 Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    clcmercy wrote: »
    The only developer approved usage of the report spam function is linked in my signature. By applying one's PERSONAL definitions, one becomes a griefer, and therefore part of the problem.

    The.
    Only.
    Acceptable.
    Use.
    Of.
    The.
    Report.
    Spam.
    Feature.
    Is.
    To.
    Use.
    It.
    On.
    Real Money Traders.

    If you're using it on anyone else, you're griefing. Period. The main problem with the whole chat ban thing is that IGNORE also mutes if enough people ignore you. THAT needs to disappear. Permanently. Leave the rest of it and start punishing the idjits misusing report spam.

    What he said. :D
  • demattodematto Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    It's sad the way we go round and round on this. People keep bringing up the same arguments to try and say the system is fair, and they keep getting shut down.

    The spam analogy comes up, and it's a fair point. It might be acceptable. But what's the responsible cut-off ratio? Because in Neverwinter it's 20 people. 1-2% of the population of the enclave, depending on when you log in.

    So for the spam analogy, that's 1 person holding 99 people hostage. He's not consulting their beliefs. This is not a "majority rules". It's not even a silent majority. He's not even ASKING them. Doesn't have to. What they want doesn't matter. Do they agree with him? Tough ****. Do they disagree? See Previous Entry. Every single thought, belief, hope or dream held by the other 99 people is completely, totally irrelevent. It's spam to him, therefore nobody gets to see it.
  • mchaywiremchaywire Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I hate to see chat spammed by folk trying to sell things. Use the auction house like everyone else. And yes, once every 30s is spamming!
  • ashensnowashensnow Member Posts: 2,215 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    blaumker wrote: »
    It's spam, it's not really a matter of opinion. If for some reason a person receives spam and says "oh goody, I got spam that I'm real interested in!!".........it's still spam.

    blaumker wrote: »
    attempt to sell unwanted merchandise by an unsolicited merchant in their inbox. ANYTHING that fits that criteria winds up there.

    Those two statements contradict each other. If the solicited product is something that the person is interested in, then it does not fit your definition of spam as solicitation of, "unwanted merchandise."

    The point is moot as Cryptic has stated that report spam is intended for real money trade spam only.

    The reality is that people ignoring the OP (as is perfectly reasonable) because they don't wish to see traders' messages can lead to the chatban. It is entirely possible that no one used report spam on the OP. He may have been banned by ignores.

    The problem is with a system wherein player A deciding that he doesn't want to see the OP trying to sell an in game item means that I and other players are not allowed to see the message either.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • mamatankmamatank Member Posts: 52
    edited June 2013
    The bottom line is that as long as the developers are willing to give me a moderation tool, I'm going to use it as I see fit.

    I'm not terribly interested in having a debate about why they gave me that tool or how they intend me to use it. I care about how it works and how I can use it to do what I want it to do.

    In this case, I want a zone chat free of advertisements and I'm going to use the tools in my toolbox to get that. Anyone who doesn't like it really doesn't have much recourse.

    Now, if the developers want to actually intervene and start controlling how that moderation tool is implemented, that's a different story. As of now, it's just a very useful tool that I can use to make zone chat readable and I'm going to keep using it.

    I get that some people don't like it. I just don't care.
  • ashensnowashensnow Member Posts: 2,215 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    mamatank wrote: »
    The bottom line is that as long as the developers are willing to give me a moderation tool, I'm going to use it as I see fit.

    I'm not terribly interested in having a debate about why they gave me that tool or how they intend me to use it. I care about how it works and how I can use it to do what I want it to do.

    In this case, I want a zone chat free of advertisements and I'm going to use the tools in my toolbox to get that. Anyone who doesn't like it really doesn't have much recourse.

    Now, if the developers want to actually intervene and start controlling how that moderation tool is implemented, that's a different story. As of now, it's just a very useful tool that I can use to make zone chat readable and I'm going to keep using it.

    I get that some people don't like it. I just don't care.


    A very well reasoned and presented position. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to provide it.

    The use of exploits is a violation of the TOS. The report spam function's intended use is for assisting in the control of real money trading. In order to get what you want out of the game you seem to support using a game feature in contradiction of its intended use. In other words exploiting.

    What other forms of exploiting for personal benefit do you support ?

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • planartardsplanartards Member Posts: 40
    edited June 2013
    At first I was only using report spam if people posted multiple messages within too short a time but lately I just use it for pretty much anything that annoys me or is borderline spam. If someone posts one simple line saying they WTB or WTS something that's cool, but multiple messages or too many items and I just report. I don't report anything that I don't agree with such as opinions, that would be ******y, just anything that constitutes spam of any kind. It really does clean chat right up and helps move us towards a better /zone. It's going to take a while but I think we can do it :o
    Join responsible gamers and boycott the Xbox One
    Don't be a fool, Open Beta with working cash shop=Live Release
  • holt3holt3 Member Posts: 333 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Stop spamming junk in Zone.
  • blaumkerblaumker Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 75
    edited June 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    Those two statements contradict each other. If the solicited product is something that the person is interested in, then it does not fit your definition of spam as solicitation of, "unwanted merchandise."

    The point is moot as Cryptic has stated that report spam is intended for real money trade spam only.

    The reality is that people ignoring the OP (as is perfectly reasonable) because they don't wish to see traders' messages can lead to the chatban. It is entirely possible that no one used report spam on the OP. He may have been banned by ignores.

    The problem is with a system wherein player A deciding that he doesn't want to see the OP trying to sell an in game item means that I and other players are not allowed to see the message either.

    You may want to bother taking me in context(contradicting statements happening within a hypothetical statement in quotation marks versus a direct statement? Really?) before refuting. My only intention was, as best as I possibly could, to illustrate the actual internet definition of spam while simultaneously demonstrating that it does not require a one hundred percent consensus to be recognized as such.

    That said, I agree that they seem to have made some attempt at a clarification, albeit an obscure post from three years ago in a forum that is not even this game. I do think that a more current and visible statement of this nature would be needed if you've any hope of continuing your spam activity. I also think it will have to be coupled with a renaming of the key to "report gold seller".

    In fact, I played a game, once upon a time, that had a report gold seller key(I forget which one it was). It never even crossed my mind to use it on folks engaging in any other activity. The clarity was there that was needed to have no doubt as to who it was targeted at.

    Their inaction FOR THREE YEARS suggests that this post is quite obsolete and that they are, in fact, satisfied with the side effect of reducing other types of unwanted spam in their games. I truly doubt that my willingness to agree that you've found evidence that using it against "merchants" will help, but more power to you.
  • mamatankmamatank Member Posts: 52
    edited June 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    A very well reasoned and presented position. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to provide it.

    The use of exploits is a violation of the TOS. The report spam function's intended use is for assisting in the control of real money trading. In order to get what you want out of the game you seem to support using a game feature in contradiction of its intended use. In other words exploiting.

    What other forms of exploiting for personal benefit do you support ?

    You're entitled to your opinion of what the report spam button's intended function is. I've considered what purpose it serves and arrived at a different opinion than yours.

    I have no incentive to convince you that my opinion is correct. Certainly, the developers gave us that power for a reason and certainly they know what that reason is. Simply, which one of us is right isn't a debate that interests me. The only thing that matters is that they've given me a tool that I find valuable and I'm going to use it.

    If I thought I was exploiting their moderation tool for personal gain, then I wouldn't do that. I don't think that I'm exploiting anything. I think they gave the community a tool so that we can shape zone chat how we want. Personally, I think the wikipedia model of community moderation can be valuable and I see the 24 hour mute function in this game as an application of that philosophy.

    You obviously disagree with me and that's your right, but it's not going to stop me from voting with my mouse every time the advertisers come to zone chat.
  • lilmonkey222lilmonkey222 Banned Users Posts: 296 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    mamatank wrote: »
    The bottom line is that as long as the developers are willing to give me a moderation tool, I'm going to use it as I see fit.

    I'm not terribly interested in having a debate about why they gave me that tool or how they intend me to use it. I care about how it works and how I can use it to do what I want it to do.

    In this case, I want a zone chat free of advertisements and I'm going to use the tools in my toolbox to get that. Anyone who doesn't like it really doesn't have much recourse.

    Now, if the developers want to actually intervene and start controlling how that moderation tool is implemented, that's a different story. As of now, it's just a very useful tool that I can use to make zone chat readable and I'm going to keep using it.

    I get that some people don't like it. I just don't care.

    That shows what kind of person you are very well. I pity you.
This discussion has been closed.