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The Good Points of 4e D&D
bluedarky
Member Posts: 1,232 Arc User
I see a lot of people bashing 4e on the forums giving it unreserved hatred, so I decided to make some points as to some areas where 4e is better than 3.5
- Faster Character Creation
- Yes this is a point, the character creation in 4e is streamlined in comparision to 3.5e allowing for games to start faster.
- Several necessary Feats now as At Wills.
- This is most notable in the fact that most classes have at wills that use a relavant class stat for their attack bonus with their at-will power.
- Lower Barrier to entrance
- Trying to get new players into 3.5e games was an exercise in frustration due to the amount of skills and lack of knowledge of what feats were necessary and what was fluff. It's far easier to get players into 4e and then introduce them to 3.5e later on.
- Who cares?
- Seriously, not everyone hates 4e, I have friends who prefer it to any other version of D&D, it's a personal preference and if you're going to hate this game because it's based on 4e then why are you here in the first place?
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- Same archetypes, better balanced. Wizard isn't garbage at level 1 and the Fighter isn't useless at level 20.
- More suitable for heroic/epic campaigns.
- More polished skillset. Come on, let's face it. In 3.5 there are several skills only meant for the Rogue to spend points on. And the Warrior barely knows how to tie his shoes on.
- NO VANCIAN MAGIC. WOOOHOOOOOOO!
People who hate 4e are either those who didn't try it, are fearful of change, or think D&D 3.5 is the only tabletop RPG that exists in the world, and they wouldn't trade it for anything anyways.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Agreed, one of my favourite things about 4e is the simplified knowledge skills. Rather than several different knowledge skills they're simplified to 5 different skills so rather than "Knowledge - Religion - Kelmvor" you have simply "Religion" which encompasses general knowledge of gods and religion. DMs as always can inflict penalties/bonuses as they see fit (I don't penalise for knowledge outside of their chosen deity but do give a +5 bonus for obscure knowledge of their chosen deity for example.)
I did some roleplaying years ago, mostly Star Frontiers, Cyberpunk, Call of Cthulhu and Warhammer Fantasy, just missing one of the big D&D crazes which seems to circle around every several years. So I've heard about D&D and the Forgotten Realms for a long time now, but Neverwinter (this game) was my first introduction to the setting.
As a young PC gamer, I was raised up on the Ultima series of games and other CRPGs. Ultima online was my first MMORPG. I've been a nerdy fan of MMORPGs ever since.
Recently, I asked a D&D-experienced friend why everyone had such a long face about 4E. He's played every edition except 4th, saying that he merely picked up the rules at a friends one day and was disgusted by what he saw.
"What did you see?" I asked.
"Well it's like they designed it to feel like an MMORPG!" He exclaimed.
"Oh..." I said, while inwardly the nerd in me was like, "OH YEAH BABY!"
Ahem. Anyway, that was two nights ago. Since then, I've purchased a couple of books on the website linked above and have been learning all about 4E D&D and Forgotten Realms.
The End.
P.S. After I feel ready (and am not going nuts on Neverwinter so much), I might try to organize a game of 4E on Roleplaymarket.com, a site that makes it easy for busy people to play pen and paper games, even when they're not "all at the table" at the same time. I used to play on that site or just read along with other peoples campaigns.
I would like to do some experimental tie-ins with Neverwinter, like allowing players to port their Neverwinter characters, history, Foundry adventure tie-ins, mounts, companions, gear and so on into my campaign.
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
RP is the same, it doesn't matter the ruleset. Heck, the worst ruleset must be AD&D with its blasted THAC0 and it had the best lore. That's because lore doesn't depend on mechanic rules, it's just... you know, imagination.
AD&D settings with 4th ed rules? That would be... awesome!
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
1. Faster game start? If your doing a game session every week you don't worry about fast character creation. The only reason it is fast is because you have less option to customize your character.
2. Feats were never a problem. Feats are part of customize your character to their backstory.
3. Frustration? I have yet to play a d&d game where people are frustrated with game mechanics. Roll a d20 for hit. Roll a d6 for damage.
4. Serious d&d players care because it took d&d to another direction. It turned the game to a dumb down fight system like world of warcraft to streamline everything where a caveman could play it. When everyone can heal every battle and during battle it take away from the diffuculty. It makes it a streamed mmo where hp/mp regens so you don't use strategies to converve spells.
- Your constitution doesn't matter at all against poisons. If they hit, you are poisoned and the save is a 10+ roll.
- Powers that slide your enemies all over the place.
- Even physical classes feel like they have supernatural powers.
There only seems too be less to customise, yet there is just as much customisation in 4e as there is in 3.5e. Also the streamlined character creation does help when 2 of your players don't show up so you can pull out a generic dungeon and everyone can roll new characters quickly so you can at least play some D&D that week.
Sure they are, and having to waste a feat on a bard so I can get a decent attack bonus wasn't a problem with the system, it was a problem with me choosing to play a bard.
Yes, once you get playing it's simple, but many people I tried to get to play 3.5e were turned off by half a page of your character sheets being devoted to skills, "Is climb more useful than balance?" "What does Tumble actually do?" and "Should I bother putting points into perform skills?" were common questions I heard from new players if I managed to get them past looking at the skills section and deciding they didn't have the time.
I find that the "serious D&D players" you're talking about are the ones who don't want new players in their groups anyway, like I said, several of the old time D&D players I know prefer 4e over 3.5e.
I've played 4e many time (own most of the books too) and like it.
But for me, nothing beats 2nd Edition. Those were the days!
Precisely, with DnD editions, as with many other things, YMMV applies.
Just because you hate it doesn't mean that every "true" D&D player hates it.
Tank, Healer, DPS .... come on, you didn't get the spirit of the game, there is nothing like that in D&D. It's crasy to see how wizard of the cost destroyed this game to please their customers with something that has in this end nothing to do with the creation of gary gygax.
ADD was the best, but i anderstand that it could be too difficult for people like you
The spirit of the game is where people can get together around a table and have fun, 4e D&D is fun to play in my opinion and if all's you can do is invoke Gary Gygax's name without evidence that he'd have shared your opinion and insult people for liking 4e then please stay out of this discussion.
The rest seems to be more designed to cater to a video game player or a card player like a Pokemon or Magic the Gathering than a Role Player.
I can't say I blame them though, people these days have the attention span of a chicken and would quickly move on to something else if it wasn't simplified.
It begin with chainmail a miniature wargame, gary gygax and arneson create some rules to help for small scale fighting like 1vs1 for their heroes on the battlefield then they went further and create the role playing game D&D to live epic adventures with their heroes.
You can't reduce D&D to a simply wargaming fightn, it's a Roleplaying game, you play the role of a character as in fantasy novel, there is no such thing as tank, Healer, DPS.
Is Elric a tank ? Is Gandalf a DPS ? has Conan forgetten to bring his healer on the way to the throne ? No they are heroes, that's all, there's no need to give that type of restrictive aspect for your character.
Sorry that you felt insulted by my sentence you should have better opinion of yourself, i just wanted to say that the rules in ADD was messy and numerous, so i anderstand that people who wanted fast and easy start couldn't go well with it.
My last D&D character was a Dragonborn Paladin, a follower of Bahamut who fought against any form of injustice in the world and was an accomplished Diplomat as well as a holy warrior. He would try and get the party to do what was right within the Law and got screwed over by his teammates constantly because he put rewards as a secondary thing after upholding law and order. His holy symbol was a piece of metallic dragon eggshell with the mark of Bahamut inscribed on it, the only thing he had taken from his home village when he left it to begin training as a Paladin.
This was in fourth edition, he was only a Defender in the terms of the combat rules, the combat rules don't dictate how I roleplay my character.
But again I reiterate my point, the essence of D&D is getting around a table and having fun with your friends in an imaginary setting, I've had several sessions both as a player and a DM where the combat rules were rarely brought out and we played through tales of political intrigue and treachery, sometimes only entering combat at the end of the night to confront the villain.
The bulk of the rulesets is combat rules, and most other things and barely changed since AD&D after all, if you feel you can't roleplay in 4e because it has a different combat system to 3.5e then I feel sorry for you.
1) well yes, dumbed down rules are easier. Calling that a bonus seems weak though.
2) But the other classes can no longer take them as feats, which limits the classes and builds to just a few really. Here again, you call a simple system that limits choices better.
3) of some merit. Honestly though, if you want non gamers to play a dumbed down game, go buy the board game talisman and a couple of the expansions for it. Hard core gamers need more depth.
4) I do not hate it, I just like the older stuff better. I think it works pretty well in this MMO because of the hack and slash action design. But this isnt a MMORPG. The RP was removed. The customization is nonexistent. Its like calling diablo role playing.
* BTW I love talisman, but its not a RPG and its very casual.
I grew up with first edition, and I loved it. When I looked through the 4E books, I loved it as well. It is the best edition since first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRZ1CYYIsCg
The FINAL word on the edition wars! I love the DB
The thing is, I had a masterful DM for 4th Edition, so those who pick at the system or call it broken likely suffered from a DM that only knew how to do "hack and slash." I experienced a great deal of roleplay and encounters that were much more than just combat. We ran through the streets full of enemies while chased by a massive ogre, got thrown off rooftops by impaling-happy gargoyles, and swarmed by evil, evil swarms of rats. Between the epic encounters, we had our share of chat and character play, so to those that say 4th Edition has less roleplay, I say, "Then you're not playing it right!"
The system is arguably more balanced than 3.5, too. As someone commented earlier, the power between classes is more balanced out while keeping each one unique. A wizard still has powerful control spells, but you don't leave the melee classes green with spell envy when he drops a fireball. As someone that's played a rogue (among many other classes), I've found myself much more happy on the field of combat strategizing with my various encounter, daily, and at-wills to gain combat advantage and deal good amounts of damage rather than the ol', "I hit him with my sword. I hit him with my sword again. I hit him with my sword again. Guess what! I hit him with my sword!" My turns are understandably much shorter for me than my brother in the other versions, who plays a wizard with more than 20 spells available for his use that he has to read up on. I'm not even going to mention the broken magic missile wands.
General skills are also a blessing as far as I'm concerned. Acrobatics covers the ol' balance, acrobatic perform, and other such skills instead of spreading them out so far that only a rogue (aka skill junkie) can keep up. The hefty bonuses also make more sense to me--a character that spends their whole life training for jumping and other such abilities should find it really hard to fail a simple jump. Similarly, a wizard that can't remember their own name due to an awful roll is pretty... sad. Solid skill bonuses you find in 4th Edition keep things sensible without you having to sort through a page of them every time you want to do something non-combat oriented.
There also isn't a lack of classes. People who make this accusation must not realize how many player option books have been released. You can play a good deal of classes, then you can sub-class and even hybrid, after that going paragon (People, this makes for at least 40 different classes to choose from). There's also whole other sections of backgrounds (based on lore) that exist for every race, class, and homeland. You can customize a character's personality and the reason for their being what they are quite extensively with the resources provided. It's complex, just not in the wrong ways, as I feel 3.5 often is. You shouldn't have to have a headache trying to figure out a blast area or spend twenty minutes figuring out what your spell save check is.
4th Edition in my opinion is hardly simplified, simply organized in a way that promotes more concrete rules for combat and interactions. It presents every player with unique abilities that do more than "swing my sword," which in turn allows for more group strategy (hence better use of hiding or flanking or marking/taunting). Finally, like all other RPG's in the universe, it allows all participants to become as involved as they want in the fantasy world and their characters, as well as making an excuse to have a pizza night.
Anyways, that's my spiel. Go 4th Edition!
Yes, of course. Priest, Healer, Thief, Meatshield, Mage...
I actually understand how to play AD&D, if you're suggesting I'm dumb or something. I started RPing with Rolemaster tables, so AD&D isn't that hard. But it's an arguably sad excuse to justify anything than melancholy for childhood years or some sort of pedantic elitism to say the former editions were better because they were more obnoxiously structured.
But feel free to bash on other people using poor arguments like recurring to some sort of "intelectual" superiority when you're just defending your right of not wanting to keep on with the times. Would be similar like saying that people who use internet are "dumb" and those who stick to radios and headsets are superior minds, unlike the "scrubbies" of nowadays.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
What I like about 4e is that although the characters' power in combat generally scales by the numbers on the sheet instead of scope of capability, they feel like their class from level 1, rather than most taking several levels to get into gear. You can finally have an effective magical swordsman from the first level, and low level Paladins are different from Fighters for more than just one swing a day.
- Rules don't dictate how you roleplay: this is correct. Also, 4E sessions don't have to be combat-oriented all the time. Most published modules were, and that was a huge mistake -and the guy guilty of that is now lead designer of 5E, just so you know-.
- Skill challenges were a mistake and a lot of 4E players and DM are aware of that. But they can be thrown out the window and all is fine in the world.
- Roleplaying can be as satisfying as in any previous edition. I've had my players spend a whole night searching for clues to catch a ritual murderer in Fallcrest, enjoying chatting with NPC all over the place. My wife has a Deva Paladin and she takes her very seriously. One of our best roleplayers used to have a halfling rogue who was the ultimate survivor, even when it meant he had to betray his comrades to lord Dagult Neverember, only to have them find out and the three women in the group -my wife, her best friend and the rogue player's real-life girlfriend- murder him in a back alley.
It all comes to having a good DM and players actually interested in roleplaying beyond rollplaying.
I also am amazed that rogues are not the garbage class anymore (what else can you play when all your charateristic rolls are 3)?
Paladins can be other alignments in accordance with their diety, and are not restricted to lawful stupid.
1") That is where fortitude as a DEFENSE stat comes in (sorely lacking from NW).. High Con/str makes you highly immune to poison/acid
2) in heroic maybe, that is HIGHLY changed by feats and class abilities later on (near immunity for several classes at epic levels)
3) actually most martial classes and powers are well explained with swashbuckling flare... once you accept that healing has become half injury and half the "will to go on"...
Fort, Will, Reflex are treated on the to-hit side of the equation .. that is why saves are 55% most of the time... tank classes get buffs on that later, leaders get lots of abilities to allow saves earlier, etc... The ability to fend off explosions (reflex) , mental control (will), poison/mind erosion/acid (fortitude) is used instead of AC as the defense for the effect.... IT ADDS TONS of strategic options, since some powers are against different defenses...
People complained when AD&D was released to replace the original ruleset.
People complained when 2e was released to replace AD&D.
People complained when 3e was released to replace 2e.
People complained when 3.5e was released to replace 3e.
People complained when 4e was released to replace 3.5e.
People are complaining about 5e which is set to replace 4e.
People will complain when the inevitable 6e is released to replace 5e.
Ad infinitum.
At the end of the day people should play the edition they prefer, but being close minded and not even giving an edition a fair shakedown isn't going to help things. (How many people here complaining about 4e have actually played 4e rather than looking at the rules and going, "This looks too much like an MMORPG, I'm going to go back to 3.5e!")
I will say I don't blame people for reading the rules and deciding not to play it. If you don't like the rules why would you bother to use them. It's like anything else, if you look at something and don't like it why are you going to try it?
Ok, carry on.
-k
dm's and players have different situations when it comes to 3.5 vs 4.0
3.5--
a) it was stated in DMG and player's handbook, that the rules were just guidelines and that it was the dm's choice how much to use and what to change. the #1 rule was: "the DM has the end all decision". the dm is the director, and the players are the actors.
b) it had a huge amount of customization. players could literally play as any playstyle they desired, and still be able to make it viable for the role they wanted.
c) it required alot of knowledge and planning on the dm's part to make an enjoyable long lasting campaign
d) it taught and required a higher level of usalble real-world knowledge and skills (it has the potential to be the most efficient learning tool of real-word application of skills in america) (in the right hands, it can be used to reliably teach current curriculum in american schools and more and have a much higher retention rate (it has math of several varieties, geography, econimics, different societies and political structiures (almost everything about societies and politics in 3.5 is based on one in the real world or in realworld history),it also teaches social skills and problem solving, gives insights to cause and effect, lets us make decisions and forces us to live with the consequeses (which increases our decision making abilities), and much much more)
4.0--
a) its stated in DMG and players handbook that the rules are unbendable, and that if a player finds a written ruling on any particular situation, that the dm has to abide by that rule, aka "the player has the end all decision" or "the player is always right" the players become the director and the actors, and the dm becomes the software tech.
b) it has very little customization, and the players are forced into predetermined playstyles. also if you dont build around that predetermined playstyle, your viability goes through the floor. (i.e. a barbarian tank = less survivability and slightly more dmg than an official tank and slightly more survivability and much less dps than an official dps (which is way more of a detriment then having an official tank and an official dps)
c) it is alot easier for the dm to plan but the dm can never introduce any original ideas, because there isnt any base groundwork to start at. which means that is is a hell of alot more work to make something new and fun while having it balanced than in 3.5
d) it has been dumbed down and streamlined SIGNIFICANTLY. while yes its simplicity encourages new ppl to join and stay, it also pushes away any1 that was raised on 3.5 or earlier. it requires no knowledge of how anything works irl nor does it really teach you anything except basic math that most 10 year olds would already know. it's "fun factor" is based around empowering the players and letting them compare their pnp "epeens". it doesnt actually even require much teamwork in the grand scheme of things. a well built dps of any class can kill almost any "solo" catagory enemies up to 2 lvls higher then them fairly easily. ive even seen a single "brawler-style" fighter kill an aspect of orcus, which was 1 lvl above, single hanedly with no interference from any1, including the healer.
these are the main reasons that most players that didnt originally start on 4.0, have moved on to pathfinder, which has the 3.5 basic ruleset with alot of loophole fixes and incorporates some of the better qualities of 1st and 2nd edition and even a little of the game chainmail (dnd's original name when 1st released, and is the true "1st edition")
and as far as 5.0 is concerned.
i am looking forward to seeing the specifics on this, as they are going back to the pre-4.0 type systems, incorporating many features from all editions pre-4.0
they are doing this because of a huge loss in buisness stemming from: the low opinions about 4.0 and the loss of loyal customers to paiso's pathfinder (which took more than 75% of their pre-4.0 customer base)
the most played pnp games when u look at dnd and pathfinder:
pathfinder > dnd 3.5 > dnd 4.0 > dnd 2e/1e (which 4.0 and 2e/1e groups are very close in numbers)
me personally, i started on 3.5 when it was still 3.0 and fairly new, best pnp times of my life were in these. i played 4.0 for about 3 years (mostly due to the lack of availiable 3.5 dm's in my area (or lack of players in general). 4.0 was enjoyable, but it wasnt even close to as enjoyable as my 3.5 years. i have played pathfinder for about 1.5 years. it ranks between 3.5 and 4.0 and is very close to beating 3.5. but i had the onforunate situation of my group breaking apart due to lack of communication and or choosing to spend all their free time drinking with randoms at bars than with friends (they didnt even go looking to get laid, only for the randoms who were "your buddies while they were drunk and in the bar")
there was 1 player that had a problem with both. and we had the unfortunate problem of him being our tank
eventually me and my roomate gave up
both me and my roommate are currently looking for a group, and are willing to try the online version.
preferences: pathfinder > 3.5 > 4.0
anyway that's my take on things.
hope its been informative!
P.S. any takers on the group can pm me here on forums for group compatability info
sorry about that