In fact I've just had a cursory read through of my own copy of the 4e Dungeon Masters Guide and can't find anything anywhere that states that the rules are unbendable.
There is still Pathfinder and old 3rd ed books to play instead.
I'm not into pointless edition wars. 4th ed is not my problem.
As soon as 4th ed was complete I've simply put WotC and official DnD on /ignorelist and the whole case was closed to me forever. Everything's fine, 4th ed doesn't exist for me, neither is upcoming new one, no problem. The very existence of Pathinder means that 3.x. ruleset will not be outdated and still on the market and I really doubt if WoTC will ever regain popularity from their 3rd ed times. *shrug*
But the difference beetween 4th ed and previous editions is, that introduction of 4th ed made many players to ditch DnD franchise in general and move to the competition who offered them continuation of previous system. This is thing that killed popularity of WoTC DnD - they should end 3rd ed for good before introducing their own. ;>
Also, nope. NW is not DnD - but not because it's 4th ed, but because it is not based on any of DnD editions, save for lore setting.
This is pretty obvious that things like skill checks or save rolls aren't even present in this system and no mechanical check is made with "virtual" d20 (unlike it was in previous games from BG to NWN1 and 2).
Merely naming ability scores and skills, branding them with adequate icons and naming powers with longest cooldown as daily and shorter cooldown as encounter is not enough to pretend that it's a PnP adaptation.
Pretty much every player who played other Cryptic titles, especially Champions Online, can tell you that what you are playing IS indeed CO mechanic covered with different names and textures. Some skills and mechanics are nearly copypasted from CO with only cosmetic changes.
Minus all bugs and total lack of balance, it's still pretty good generic fantasy MMO, but certainly not a DnD adaptation, not even 4th edition one.
The hope is that we can drag this more towards the D&D flavour. Once the basic bugs are worked out if the players are still around, perhaps we push, cajole, drag this more in that direction.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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shadowboxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Every edition is going to have it's faults, every edition will have it's strong points, i just don't get why people feel the need to not only defend their edition but to verbally attack people for liking one more than "Their" edition, different strokes for different folks people.
And when it comes down to it none of the editions are much different, all of them can be retrofitted to whatever play style you like, not once do any of the books say you can't change rules or scrap things you don't like, and even if they did screw that, take things out you don't like who cares, all i hear when people say "I hate X edition" is i'm a nostalgic A-hole! it's like you all think you have Gary Gygax channeling into your fingers typing his every word and opinion onto these forums.
And i get it, you like your edition cause maybe it has been DM'd the best of any you've played so far, or maybe it just fits your style of play best, or maybe you just have fond memories of it, but why would you want to ruin other peoples experience simply cause you didn't enjoy it, you should be focusing on your common ground, like the fact that you both play D&D.
But the difference beetween 4th ed and previous editions is, that introduction of 4th ed made many players to ditch DnD franchise in general and move to the competition who offered them continuation of previous system. This is thing that killed popularity of WoTC DnD - they should end 3rd ed for good before introducing their own. ;>
Kind of a strange statement to make, you claim to speak for people you know nothing about, you may have done that but it doesn't imply other people did, i think what split D&D players between games was diversity, there are tons of different RPG games now compared to even 10 years ago, so don't go making statements that you have no way to backup, for all you know D&D is doing better now than any other point in history.
And to add some positivity to the thread in the manner requested i will add some things i like about 4E
-Melee classes aren't only basic attack rolls now, i like that a lot, also warriors and monks aren't totally garbage.
-Easier to teach people how to play without losing to much substance.
-You can create any kind of character you want mechanically and for RP
-The hybrid and multiclass system is very nice
-And last but not least casters don't start with like 4 hp, i literally made a sorcerer in 3.5 and had him die from a rat i found in a pile of rocks, it was hilarious but it also sucked.
so don't go making statements that you have no way to backup, for all you know D&D is doing better now than any other point in history.
For all I know? No. I don't know it. Better than at any point in history? Really? This statement is hardly believable and hardly has any backup. You may like 4th ed but to tell it's the most liked edition is strange statement.
Which edition before had spawned competition like Pathinder and d20 fans moving to other d20 game? There was negativity about 3rd ed but not to this point when new edition had to be defended in topics like this one. It's also very short lived. Didn't lasted for long and already have next edition incoming.
No. It's hardly as succesful as AD&D or 3rd ed.
Kind of a strange statement to make, you claim to speak for people you know nothing about, you may have done that but it doesn't imply other people did, i think what split D&D players between games was diversity.
Started playing RPG in 1995 and I can't recall if any game before received this amount of negativity not from outsiders (as many RPG players doesn't care about d20 at all playing other systems), but from d20 players (well, the only thing even close to this was reaction for tabletop oriented Warhammer roleplay edition, but WFRP never was popular compared to DnD, so...).
It speaks something when almost all groups you know stays with 3rd ed, moves to Pathinder, or uses 4th ed ruleset but totally ignores all new setting and plays Blood War and pre-Spellplague. Also, the very fact that Pathfinder had commercial success and its playerbase its mostly 3rd ed fans. 4th ed maybe had new people drawn into RPG (or rather fantasy skirmish tabletop games), but certainly it also lost players.
shadowboxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Started playing RPG in 1995 and I can't recall if any game before received this amount of negativity not from outsiders (as many RPG players doesn't care about d20 at all playing other systems), but from d20 players (well, the only thing even close to this was reaction for tabletop oriented Warhammer roleplay edition, but WFRP never was popular compared to DnD, so...).
It speaks something when almost all groups you know stays with 3rd ed, moves to Pathinder, or uses 4th ed ruleset but totally ignores all new setting and plays Blood War and pre-Spellplague. Also, the very fact that Pathfinder had commercial success and its playerbase its mostly 3rd ed fans. 4th ed maybe had new people drawn into RPG (or rather fantasy skirmish tabletop games), but certainly it also lost players.
I was never saying you were wrong, just saying that you have no way to backup what you are saying, there is no real evidence supporting either side of the argument, all i'm saying is that every new edition has received much negativity from the fans of the previous editions, also one thing to remember is that the upset people are always the most vocal, so even if the WOTC forums are filled with a few hundred people hating on the new edition there is no way to know how many people aren't on there that love the game, because they are off playing it while the diehards are getting mad on the forums.
Another thing to remember is that in the 90s D&D was less mainstream and online forums were much smaller generally speaking, so if people really hated an edition there was no way to really hear about it, so once again i'll make the argument that 4E could be the most loved edition so far cause there is really no way to know either way.
For all I know? No. I don't know it. Better than at any point in history? Really? This statement is hardly believable and hardly has any backup. You may like 4th ed but to tell it's the most liked edition is strange statement.
Which edition before had spawned competition like Pathinder and d20 fans moving to other d20 game? There was negativity about 3rd ed but not to this point when new edition had to be defended in topics like this one. It's also very short lived. Didn't lasted for long and already have next edition incoming.
No. It's hardly as succesful as AD&D or 3rd ed.
Also a strange thing to say, you seem to think i'm actually saying 4E is the best, and that is quite the contrary, i'm saying you have no evidence to support your claims cause none exists, you make statements like you KNOW for a fact what edition is the most loved and played, you cannot claim to know these things cause no one does, you are attaching your personal opinion to something that is completely subjective, try looking at things more objectively it will help you look less opinionated.
Fourth Edition also places a larger emphasis on movement, further incorporating push/pull mechanics, which is cool if you like using miniatures and visualizing combat on a map as part of your RP.
I was never saying you were wrong, just saying that you have no way to backup what you are saying, there is no real evidence supporting either side of the argument, all i'm saying is that every new edition has received much negativity from the fans of the previous editions, also one thing to remember is that the upset people are always the most vocal, so even if the WOTC forums are filled with a few hundred people hating on the new edition there is no way to know how many people aren't on there that love the game, because they are off playing it while the diehards are getting mad on the forums.
I know a good portion of the test groups and I can say for certain that 4e received more negative feedback from them than any other edition. Why? It took players and DMs out of their comfort zones by being the first edition to discard most of the rules of the previous editions in attempt to be revolutionary rather than evolutionary. Whether this was good or not is matter of opinion, but the negative feedback amount that 4e generated is matter of fact. Why? Because they handed it to a bunch of old schoolers rather than testing it with the desired market audience.
When I provided my summary feedback after all testing I remember literally saying it looks like they are trying to market the newest edition to this current generation of MMO gamers by making a game that plays on paper more similarly to an MMO than any other edition of D&D - and I remember how the marketing peoples eyes lit up when I said that. It was the entire idea all along. Why would they NOT try to tap that market, with tens of millions of potential customers.
Note that for D&D next, they basically handed it out to everyone for testing, as they want different crowds feedback, and not just us die hards up here in Wisconsin who are associated with specific groups. This gives a far more realistic picture of what is liked/disliked by all who play rather than listening to one specific group of over experienced and possibly jaded old timers who cling to our death spells and huge melee criticals, shaking our fists screaming "get off mah lawn!!!"
Rule-wise 4th ed isn't that bad. I dislike ditching of Vancian spell system, but this is something that was started in 3rd ed with Arcana Unearthed and spell points. 4th ed was mostly attacked because it was introduced as D&D game to people familiar with older editions.
If it was made as an unrelated game merely set in the same lore and advertised as, let's say "d20 next" or under any other name and advertised mostly to new people, less people would be upset.
Comments
Where does it state this?
Good question, something I wanted to ask as well.
In fact I've just had a cursory read through of my own copy of the 4e Dungeon Masters Guide and can't find anything anywhere that states that the rules are unbendable.
There is still Pathfinder and old 3rd ed books to play instead.
I'm not into pointless edition wars. 4th ed is not my problem.
As soon as 4th ed was complete I've simply put WotC and official DnD on /ignorelist and the whole case was closed to me forever. Everything's fine, 4th ed doesn't exist for me, neither is upcoming new one, no problem. The very existence of Pathinder means that 3.x. ruleset will not be outdated and still on the market and I really doubt if WoTC will ever regain popularity from their 3rd ed times. *shrug*
But the difference beetween 4th ed and previous editions is, that introduction of 4th ed made many players to ditch DnD franchise in general and move to the competition who offered them continuation of previous system. This is thing that killed popularity of WoTC DnD - they should end 3rd ed for good before introducing their own. ;>
Also, nope. NW is not DnD - but not because it's 4th ed, but because it is not based on any of DnD editions, save for lore setting.
This is pretty obvious that things like skill checks or save rolls aren't even present in this system and no mechanical check is made with "virtual" d20 (unlike it was in previous games from BG to NWN1 and 2).
Merely naming ability scores and skills, branding them with adequate icons and naming powers with longest cooldown as daily and shorter cooldown as encounter is not enough to pretend that it's a PnP adaptation.
Pretty much every player who played other Cryptic titles, especially Champions Online, can tell you that what you are playing IS indeed CO mechanic covered with different names and textures. Some skills and mechanics are nearly copypasted from CO with only cosmetic changes.
Minus all bugs and total lack of balance, it's still pretty good generic fantasy MMO, but certainly not a DnD adaptation, not even 4th edition one.
And when it comes down to it none of the editions are much different, all of them can be retrofitted to whatever play style you like, not once do any of the books say you can't change rules or scrap things you don't like, and even if they did screw that, take things out you don't like who cares, all i hear when people say "I hate X edition" is i'm a nostalgic A-hole! it's like you all think you have Gary Gygax channeling into your fingers typing his every word and opinion onto these forums.
And i get it, you like your edition cause maybe it has been DM'd the best of any you've played so far, or maybe it just fits your style of play best, or maybe you just have fond memories of it, but why would you want to ruin other peoples experience simply cause you didn't enjoy it, you should be focusing on your common ground, like the fact that you both play D&D.
Kind of a strange statement to make, you claim to speak for people you know nothing about, you may have done that but it doesn't imply other people did, i think what split D&D players between games was diversity, there are tons of different RPG games now compared to even 10 years ago, so don't go making statements that you have no way to backup, for all you know D&D is doing better now than any other point in history.
And to add some positivity to the thread in the manner requested i will add some things i like about 4E
-Melee classes aren't only basic attack rolls now, i like that a lot, also warriors and monks aren't totally garbage.
-Easier to teach people how to play without losing to much substance.
-You can create any kind of character you want mechanically and for RP
-The hybrid and multiclass system is very nice
-And last but not least casters don't start with like 4 hp, i literally made a sorcerer in 3.5 and had him die from a rat i found in a pile of rocks, it was hilarious but it also sucked.
Which edition before had spawned competition like Pathinder and d20 fans moving to other d20 game? There was negativity about 3rd ed but not to this point when new edition had to be defended in topics like this one. It's also very short lived. Didn't lasted for long and already have next edition incoming.
No. It's hardly as succesful as AD&D or 3rd ed. Started playing RPG in 1995 and I can't recall if any game before received this amount of negativity not from outsiders (as many RPG players doesn't care about d20 at all playing other systems), but from d20 players (well, the only thing even close to this was reaction for tabletop oriented Warhammer roleplay edition, but WFRP never was popular compared to DnD, so...).
It speaks something when almost all groups you know stays with 3rd ed, moves to Pathinder, or uses 4th ed ruleset but totally ignores all new setting and plays Blood War and pre-Spellplague. Also, the very fact that Pathfinder had commercial success and its playerbase its mostly 3rd ed fans. 4th ed maybe had new people drawn into RPG (or rather fantasy skirmish tabletop games), but certainly it also lost players.
I was never saying you were wrong, just saying that you have no way to backup what you are saying, there is no real evidence supporting either side of the argument, all i'm saying is that every new edition has received much negativity from the fans of the previous editions, also one thing to remember is that the upset people are always the most vocal, so even if the WOTC forums are filled with a few hundred people hating on the new edition there is no way to know how many people aren't on there that love the game, because they are off playing it while the diehards are getting mad on the forums.
Another thing to remember is that in the 90s D&D was less mainstream and online forums were much smaller generally speaking, so if people really hated an edition there was no way to really hear about it, so once again i'll make the argument that 4E could be the most loved edition so far cause there is really no way to know either way.
Also a strange thing to say, you seem to think i'm actually saying 4E is the best, and that is quite the contrary, i'm saying you have no evidence to support your claims cause none exists, you make statements like you KNOW for a fact what edition is the most loved and played, you cannot claim to know these things cause no one does, you are attaching your personal opinion to something that is completely subjective, try looking at things more objectively it will help you look less opinionated.
I know a good portion of the test groups and I can say for certain that 4e received more negative feedback from them than any other edition. Why? It took players and DMs out of their comfort zones by being the first edition to discard most of the rules of the previous editions in attempt to be revolutionary rather than evolutionary. Whether this was good or not is matter of opinion, but the negative feedback amount that 4e generated is matter of fact. Why? Because they handed it to a bunch of old schoolers rather than testing it with the desired market audience.
When I provided my summary feedback after all testing I remember literally saying it looks like they are trying to market the newest edition to this current generation of MMO gamers by making a game that plays on paper more similarly to an MMO than any other edition of D&D - and I remember how the marketing peoples eyes lit up when I said that. It was the entire idea all along. Why would they NOT try to tap that market, with tens of millions of potential customers.
Note that for D&D next, they basically handed it out to everyone for testing, as they want different crowds feedback, and not just us die hards up here in Wisconsin who are associated with specific groups. This gives a far more realistic picture of what is liked/disliked by all who play rather than listening to one specific group of over experienced and possibly jaded old timers who cling to our death spells and huge melee criticals, shaking our fists screaming "get off mah lawn!!!"
If it weren't fer these rickets.....
4e is rubbish , 3.5 was bearable , and 2 indeed those were the days.
If it was made as an unrelated game merely set in the same lore and advertised as, let's say "d20 next" or under any other name and advertised mostly to new people, less people would be upset.
Sure, a DM can make some great things with 4e, but where are the DM's for this game?
How would you have a DM in an MMO?