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SERIOUS Mob Problem Folks!

avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
edited May 2013 in The Foundry
OK, I did the measurements, I built the Map, I set the story line, then discovered that you only get 50 "FIFTY!" encounters? What is with that, the map if you actually use any of the rooms and details covers 2000 square feet of space. Put 50 encounters in that area and it simply looks empty. Players would have to walk 5 minutes between encounters on an average alone.

Folks you need a Minimum, MINIMUM; of 90 to 100 encounters to work with an area that big and to make it seem populated to any extent as a viable ecosystem and structure.

My current project is at a total stand still due to this.
The ONLY other way to fix the space verses map problem at this point is to either put in a minimum of 100 encounters "Does not count the numbers of mobs in each encounter", OR, to make dual way map transitions so it looks fluid allowing players to move from one map to another and back to the first one with out the requirement of the map transition being in the story line.

So I wonder which would be the fastest and less time consuming way to accomplish this?

I would really like to get part 4 off the ground and published but under the current 50 mob cap it would make the entire crypt area seem, well empty of any undead or other mobs at all. And take the players into a walk of virtual empty oblivion to reach each set of boss mobs, in short this is a game killer for any well formulated and structured LARGE scale Foundry map folks.

Right now even with a 100 mob count I would not be able to set up an optional solo or group play trigger and fill the space so it looked realistic and not well, so EMPTY.

PLEASE; PLEASE; PLEASE Fix this ASAP, by simply allowing the use of up to 100 encounter per map. I would prefer the Dual Transition map option instead but I think that would require more work in production hours than the other fix would.

Avalean@Avaleean
Post edited by avalean on

Comments

  • pietro0815pietro0815 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Hi,

    first of, 50 encounters does not mean 50 mobs. An Encounter contains 1 to 4 or 5 mobs.
    Second, Try to not stack encounters, you should position encounters after each other with at least their aggro range between them. (except you want to do a group foundry).

    After this, if you still need 50+ encounters i would suggest duplicating your map N times and add a loadingscreen between the different parts of the map.

    Also if you run out of encounters for your map before you run out of "details" i think you doing something wrong.

    Just my thought from a foundry **** aswell :)

    Phil
  • umutcann123umutcann123 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Ok. Thanks MMMM
  • wuhsinwuhsin Banned Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    You can have your quest take place across multiple maps, perhaps have each map represent a deeper level of your dungeon. For each map you'll get another 50 encounters. Though I advise against making anything too long. Trust me, if your quest is much longer than 15 minutes or any shorter you WILL get flamed by people who only care about the daily.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • raphaeldisantoraphaeldisanto Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Sounds to me like your maps are too big.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Ok you are missing the entire point here. To allow full free movement with out being forced to follow a set story line NOR have to make one way map transitions.

    First, I am not over stacking mobs all are well out of 20 feet range of each set easy, some 40 even 80 feet apart.

    Second, Have you EVER used the full capacity of just a single map? Do you realize just how much unused space is on a single room area alone? maybe I just see things a bit differently or perhaps "Puffed up head" I am the first to use the full potential of the provided material, either way the facts are facts. If you use the full available space on just a single given map you can have well over 5000 square feet of space to populate. If given the right amount of encounters and NPCs you could make a doable free flowing scenario that dose not require forced one way map transitions, and due to not requiring the need of multiple duplicated maps it even saves data space and packet flow to boot.

    Third, the entire, I repeat "Entire" object of this project was to provide a free movement scenario where players could as in a REAL D&D Scenario come and go to anywhere in the quest at their leisure, pace, and desire and not get blocked from returning to a location WHEN THEY WANTED TOO; with out having it locked into a linear story where once you leave one building or room to have to transition to a different map then you can not go back to that building or room with out it having to be placed into the story line forcing the player to follow a set path.

    Instead it was to allow the player"s" to come and go at will anywhere in the region with out being forced to follow a set story path to move form one region to another. YES, there is a story line to follow and complete but you are not forced to have to make one way map transitions by accomplishing those objectives.

    So, again I state from experience, that IF a person uses the full space and content in a single map region to allow for full freedom of movement by the players, they need to either raise the mob encounters up to 100 OR provide for dual way map transitions like you have with portals.

    To place the proof in the pudding as it were, I have placed Just the BASIC map for part 4 to be available for any to go and see for themselves. Go run it, explore, then tell me even when I have mobs over 80 feet apart you will not need more encounters just to occupy a single well constructed map region. Heck so far i think there is only like 10 rooms in the entire map so far, I do not count the Lichs room as no mass encounters are to happen there until part 8.

    Of course once again I state, "IF the map is used to its fullest potential". And remember the objective is NO forced one way map transitions.

    Part 4 "The Lich Lord"
    NW-DNJGGTTIB

    So before you make any more such comments please go look at the construction, THEN you will see for yourself Oh and I still have close to 300 details left to use just for cosmetics.

    Avalean@avaleean
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Yes but the entire reasoning was to totally avoid any forced map transitions. And since map transitions are only one way that is not an option. Read my latest post, check out the current construction, Only 10 or 11 rooms, over 3000 feet of space, now try to populate that with only 50 mobs even placed 80 feet apart it is simply empty. But it does allow for full freedom of movement by the player to come, go, come back, leave, return what ever they wish with out being forced to follow a set story line just to get from one place to another. Mind you I have not even started calculating what it would be to populate it with just the "Staff" NPC mobs to flush out the settings alone. I figure about 150 is a good number to start with. People just have not used the full potential of a single map while forcing players into the same cookie cutter follow the leader story line mode.

    I personally see much more potential than that here, but we need to be given the resources to accomplish that objective. Part 4 is in total beta it has only 1 room fully flushed out with encounters and just as a minimum that took 11 slots to do. so a minimum of 11 encounters for one room, 10 rooms being used that is what 110 encounters? And no over stacking, even with those numbers I would not be able to fully flush out and populate properly as is, let alone formulate for a group trigger option.

    Part 4 "The Lich Lord"
    NW-DNJGGTTIB
    by Avaleean
  • anrix2anrix2 Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    You can split encounter groups up to cover a greater distance under the detail view of the map. The layout view will be offset by their average location relative to where the encounter was originally placed. That should help you cover more of your map. Essentially you can take a group that has 5 or 6 easy encounters and spread them out so they can cover 100x100 area. You would be challenging the player through attrition and they won't even realize where all their health has gone by the time they hit one of the tougher encounters.
    A solo or group hack-n-slash: Mage Masher

    A short solo hack-n-slash: The Dirty Dwarf
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Sounds to me like your maps are too big.

    As I Said currently only using 10 rooms to do this, Just using the full potential of those rooms is all.
    And why say it is too big when they give you a 2000 square foot map area and 50 rooms per map? Nope even by their provided standards 50 mobs is only 1 mob per room and so you say 10 rooms is too big of a map?
  • kamaliiciouskamaliicious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    avalean wrote: »
    So before you make any more such comments please go look at the construction, THEN you will see for yourself Oh and I still have close to 300 details left to use just for cosmetics.
    It looks like you made a long and complicated path just to get tripped up by the invisible walls that are built in to the royal crypt rooms that prevent jumping over the 3 foot railing, as I reached the door to the Lich but can't jump over the railing.
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    LOL Try the provided teleports all over the place it is multi leveled and mazed but you can reach every part in all four floors in some cases. IF you take the north teleport in the spawn room and work your way to the top level of the north west corner section all three levels there are basically populated with encounters. you will see nothing is over stacked too closely and still took 11 encounters for that alone.
  • runis12runis12 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'm using an extra large outdoor map with monsters placed in the relevant main-quest paths, and non-relevant main-quest paths (monster encounters guarding secret items, inhabiting areas where the player lands if he falls off a bridge or waterfall, or encounters just there to make their areas not look so empty). I'm using up 323/500 "encounters". So I guess I could see where you're coming from. But it sounds like a war-zone in Avalean Land! Haha :) All I can suggest is to try and stretch encounters, like anrix said.

    Edit: P.S. I can bish about the detail resource limit all day ;_; 1500 is not enough.
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I will be in game for a while and in foundry chat, if anyone is interested in a direct walk through feel free to grab me there and ask. So here is the proof of the pudding as it were, your chance to say I told you so it will not work or to say I am sorry it will work and you will need more encounters.
    I am on Mindflayer just ask for Avalean or Suemunlee in foundry chat I will see it.
  • kamaliiciouskamaliicious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    avalean wrote: »
    LOL Try the provided teleports all over the place it is multi leveled
    Just telling you right now some people are going to be really annoyed they can't jump over the 3 foot railing when their character can jump well over that.
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well I can do nadda about that my concern was the number of encounters available, that is why they provided teleports I figure.
  • shorlongshorlong Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 286 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Wow. Is this Wushin in disguise? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I ran around for about 20 minutes before finding anything to fight. I'm all for exploration maps, but this is just a long, complicated path for no reason than to be long and complicated. It is the MOST convoluted map I have ever seen. Exploration is great, but there still has to be some sense of direction. I didn't know which teleporter to go through, so I went through one. Turns out I ran around looking at the same rock structures and floating pillars over and over again, only to be held up by a 3-foot wall, then go in and meet up with the lich king, who I am assuming I shouldn't even be at yet, then realizing I have to walk back through this really uninspired and drab area (I see where your budget went....PILLARS PILLARS PILLARS!!!!!!!) for a good five minutes, climbing over things that make no sense to be there, then going underneath rocks that I can now see through as they are above me and have no textures on the bottom of them, I decided to just /killme so I can go back to the beginning and try the other path...which was pretty much the same thing with even less sense of what exactly I should be doing.

    See, here is the thing a lot of you guys don't seem to grasp. A great, big, open exploration zone is awesome! IF, and only if, we have a sense of why we are there and what we are doing. Unfortunately, the common theme I am seeing in these maps is throw a bunch of big empty rooms, make them hard to navigate, hide the elements that are important to the story, and wish the players luck. NO ONE WANTS THAT! Not even fans of exploration. We want a well designed large map, with one clear path, or at least a clear idea of what to do, and then we want a captivating large area to see what else there is.

    Want to see a large map put to good use for exploration that has a good balance of mobs with good consistency, great looking environments and allows for lots of exploration?! Look at From Whence the Thunder Comes by @ellindar. HUGE map with lots of baddies to fight, evenly spaced so as to not be boring, with other things to do aside from fighting.

    Another thing you can do, is instead of whining that the system has these limitations, work within those limitations. Yeah, a large map split into sections may NOT give you that overall freedom you desire, however, if you work within this limitations, you will get four still quite large exploration areas that give a clear goal on what to do and have more mobs, details, decorations and everything else per map. Want to be able to go back to the other maps? No problem, go ahead and do so. Just make the copies and boom, your done. If, however, you DON'T want to work within those limitations and instead want to make giant rooms with nothing unique, creative or even discerning about them, not take into consideration the positives of splitting it into multiple maps, such as more detailed environments, more encounters and more freedoms, then do not come and complain that you can't do what you want and no one wants to play it....
    My quest was deleted in July of 2013. There were no issues, it had not violated any rules. Was deemed a bug. That quest is still missing.

    RIP - Dirty Politics May 21st, 2013 - July 30th, 2013
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    As I said not enough Encounters available is the problem and that is beta only one room is populated right now I said that before in previous post people.
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The ENTIRE thread here was simply stating that IF you use the full potential of the available maps provided, then you will need more than 50 encounters to properly flush it out. OR to allow dual way map transfers like with portals not tied directly to the story line. I Figured the first option of adding more encounters available would take less time, effort and money by the company to provide is all.

    I ALSO Stated that there currently is not a set story line it is story boarded but not in place yet so later yes more mobs and directionals, which is already there, simply follow the glowing lights. but as for a set linear story line of go here to here to here then done nope not in place yet this is simply the structure because people said 50 encounters for 10 rooms was more than enough and would cause overflow stacking.

    So if you wandered forever and never even found the one section populated by the 11 encounters in one of the 10 rooms, I guess my point is proven.
  • avaleanavalean Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    PS I did not place the floating pillars nor partial stalagtites in there it is not part of the used details. That is set in the room map as is and can not be changed so not my doing, OH guess you will have to deal with the limitations right? :-)
  • kamaliiciouskamaliicious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    avalean wrote: »
    The ENTIRE thread here was simply stating that IF you use the full potential of the available maps provided, then you will need more than 50 encounters to properly flush it out.
    The flat maps such as ocean expanse have 1000 foot ceilings. Theoretically I could make a map using those that was 20 giant rooms, each room the size of the map and stacked on top of each other with a 45-50 foot ceiling height.

    In closed beta, one of the very last Foundry updates made the budget what you see today. The budget was very sharply cut, and caused at least one highly visible person [hint: he wrote the Foundry manual that's stickied] to publicly quit. The budget cut uproar caused an extensive explanation of why they did it directly from the devs and chock full of technical details, so the likelihood of it getting changed any time soon is close to zero.

    In short, you need to rework your map to fit what the Foundry will do.
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