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Need a reality check.
ataranes
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 61
Here's the situation I am in as I see it.
I am a 60 GWF. I am around 9500 GS. I have declined some of the GS boosting feats. I am specced into Instigator and run mostly Arp, Recovery, Crit then Power. I am a good player, I play very conservatively when we have 1 DC and aggressively when we have 2 DCs. I am always on the right add, the right mob and work very well with whatever group I am in. I know the fights and watch videos. I just want to get that part out of the way.
Here's the problem. I am in a guild where we try to make all groups work. We really try not to exclude people who are willing to try. However, it seems that when you have a GWF in your group, you are dramatically limiting your success on many final bosses. Moreover, it really brings out the fact that there are alot of bad CWs, TRs, and DCs out there getting by simply by virtue of their classes strengths in the NW dungeons as they are designed.
Basically, it seems that with a GWF or a DPS GF in the group, you're either excluding an extra healer, a controller, or a single target DPS. Virtually every instance has a final boss which is difficult without doubling up on either CWs or DCs unless you simply overpower and overgear the instance.
Such as it is, it gives the appearance that the GWF is the weak link in the chain. That taking a GWF is too much work because the other classes need to carry them when I really don't think that is the case. What I really see is that everyone has to play at their peak to get the job done.
Now, my T2 experience is limited in this game because some of the more outspoken players in the guild insist on the ideal group comps (2CW, 2 DC, 1 TR) and pugging is horrific on a GWF. But case in point. Final boss Spider King. Either you have very strong single target DPS and burn through the bosses regen, or you need to burn down the adds (small spiders) before she can regen off them. In this case, you can get through it with mediocre CWs paired with a mediocre TR because he's doing so much ST DPS just facerolling and the CWs are doing an okay job with Adds but neither one reaches a critical mass. Throw me into the group instead of the TR and I can't do enough single target damage to overcome the CWs lack of skill dealing with adds. Is that my fault? Probably not, but it gives the impression that it is.
We did it with 2 DCs, 2 CWs and Me and we just couldn't make progress despite my best effort.
Is this just something to power through? Should I consider moving into another spec to boost single target and try to overcome?
I really like the class and want to make it work but I think short of a static group....
I am a 60 GWF. I am around 9500 GS. I have declined some of the GS boosting feats. I am specced into Instigator and run mostly Arp, Recovery, Crit then Power. I am a good player, I play very conservatively when we have 1 DC and aggressively when we have 2 DCs. I am always on the right add, the right mob and work very well with whatever group I am in. I know the fights and watch videos. I just want to get that part out of the way.
Here's the problem. I am in a guild where we try to make all groups work. We really try not to exclude people who are willing to try. However, it seems that when you have a GWF in your group, you are dramatically limiting your success on many final bosses. Moreover, it really brings out the fact that there are alot of bad CWs, TRs, and DCs out there getting by simply by virtue of their classes strengths in the NW dungeons as they are designed.
Basically, it seems that with a GWF or a DPS GF in the group, you're either excluding an extra healer, a controller, or a single target DPS. Virtually every instance has a final boss which is difficult without doubling up on either CWs or DCs unless you simply overpower and overgear the instance.
Such as it is, it gives the appearance that the GWF is the weak link in the chain. That taking a GWF is too much work because the other classes need to carry them when I really don't think that is the case. What I really see is that everyone has to play at their peak to get the job done.
Now, my T2 experience is limited in this game because some of the more outspoken players in the guild insist on the ideal group comps (2CW, 2 DC, 1 TR) and pugging is horrific on a GWF. But case in point. Final boss Spider King. Either you have very strong single target DPS and burn through the bosses regen, or you need to burn down the adds (small spiders) before she can regen off them. In this case, you can get through it with mediocre CWs paired with a mediocre TR because he's doing so much ST DPS just facerolling and the CWs are doing an okay job with Adds but neither one reaches a critical mass. Throw me into the group instead of the TR and I can't do enough single target damage to overcome the CWs lack of skill dealing with adds. Is that my fault? Probably not, but it gives the impression that it is.
We did it with 2 DCs, 2 CWs and Me and we just couldn't make progress despite my best effort.
Is this just something to power through? Should I consider moving into another spec to boost single target and try to overcome?
I really like the class and want to make it work but I think short of a static group....
Steelkat/Unfrozen Caveman - DCs
Guild Leader of MOPP4
MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
Guild Leader of MOPP4
MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
Post edited by ataranes on
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Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
I don't disagree with that. I think it can and obvously has been done, I just think that a group with a GF or GWF has much less margin for error so it requires other players to step up their game. The end result, when it doesn't go well, is that GWF or GF is seen as the weak link.
On Dracolich, at final boss I was 5MM total damage behind one of our TRs (who think's he's the man), but he just couldn't stay alive out there on his own against the Dracolich, but I was doing just fine.
We wiped, and now he doesn't want to run it anymore without the 2/2/1 crowd pleaser. He's not alone.
Guild Leader of MOPP4
MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
In case your ego was blocking the monitor like I know it is oft to do...
A player asking for help. Yes, yes... let's call him a bad and then tell him to lrn2play instead of helping the guy out.
Opinion is not fact!
Sounds more like bad players than class problems.
The problem is a large portion of the community are sheep and expect to be lead by their masters. While the rest of us think for ourselves and find out what works. Stop listening to the community and go see what works for you and your group.
I prefer to run double DPS GF & 1 DC as it makes all trash/adds nothing to worry about. But others in my guild like Double DC or will go 1 DC & 1 GF or take who ever wants to go and beat the dungeons np. The reason why is they are all experienced players and you really only need 1 healer to down any of the bosses.
Also, I'm assuming 5m damage behind is due to multiple attempts in which case he's pretty **** tier. Dying a lot and not having the skills to tank it properly means he doesn't have bleed stacks up full time (or good ones at that) and if he doesn't have those then his single target dps is reduced by 40-50%.
That said.
A GWF does make it harder for the rest of the group. You're also not being very intelligent if you do things with a group makeup such as DC DC CW CW GWF but that's besides the point.
A GWF means you're losing 1 important job, and usually it's easier (at least as far as CN goes) to lose a CW but that means the remaining CW needs to be pro status or you have no chance. The rest of the dungeons are HAMSTER easy if you run DC CW CW GWF TR but again, take into account that if those 2xCW aren't on voice then they are likely going to make a GWF pretty useless because they do way more damage knocking stuff around than they do balling it up real nicely for someone who does less damage than them.
Castle Never is also doable DC CW CW GWF TR but with the lack of the Fig8 healing area to kite the other CW has to be pro status too. Basically, the one CW will be in charge of the adds but the other will need to be pulling adds, debuffing the boss, and ready to mass CC at a moments notice in the case of a failed knockout or people going down.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?173021-ExtinctioN-style-GWF-Initiator-leave-them-all-bloody
This is a pretty darn good guide to the Instigator build, including suggestions on gearing and relative worth of different stats.
At first blush, I would suggest putting power a little higher on your stat priority than dead last. ArP should probably be around 2200 or so judging from the forums, although I'll be really honest I prefer Power > Crit > Recovery > ArP on my Destroyer.
Last thing, it sounds like your guild is full of either exploiters or jerks. If they won't include you, and it sounds like they're moving that way, change guilds. All the content is 100% clearable with a balanced party, but the caveat to that is that it will be slightly harder. Not everyone is adverse to difficulty, and if all the players are reasonably skilled it's probably more fun. TBH the only real reason to run the 'optimal' configuration is because you don't want to try hard and want to clear it faster. I admit that's probably 95% of gamers right there, but I wish you luck in your endeavor to find a better guild.
The first time I did spider queue my team had 2 TRs on boss with me tanking add's and CW helping me trash. We had major issues too because the TR's DPS were **** and bleed doesn't stack.
Many MMOs have DPS race bosses and if you can't do the DPS you can't beat the boss. So don't worry about it and move on.
Generally speaking a GWF increases group dps by a lot just from Student of the Sword and if you're instigator, from those combat advantage feats. Running spider without a TR is probably impossible, I've done it with double cleric CW, TR, and myself- CW on adds, myself and rogue on the boss. I was supporting the rogue while doing respectable dps (thanks to focused destroyer, reaping strike+ feat and student of the sword) and with the CW not being terrible we killed her in no time at all. Enfeeble + SoTS really amps up (rogue) damage by a ton.
I honestly think destroyer is the way to go unless you have people that are good enough to take advantage of all the combat advantage you're giving them. Gear is also a factor- no matter how good you are if you don't have the numbers behind it you're probably going to fail. It's something that happens in MMOs.
11.6k GS here with arp cap thanks to ioun, although I can hit it without it thanks to disciple of war. I've done T2s, cleared castle never up to dracolich with TR, GWF, 2x DC (double shield 2strong) CW. If our clerics have been better geared I think we would've cleared it.
Guild Leader of MOPP4
MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
Guild Leader of MOPP4
MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
Can safely ignore his comments as he doesn't even play GWF.
You're probably doing fine. The thing is it's really hard to directly measure the effects of damage boosts to your team. Every run at a dungeon will be slightly different even with the same group and characters. The people you run with can try and see if they do more or less damage with you around, but how do you weigh that against increased control and damage from a second CW versus a GWF? You would need five people that are willing to crunch numbers instead of play for at least a day or two.
I think that running with a like-minded CW is probably the best way to ensure you maximize your potential. Arcane Singularity is a GWF's best friend, yet I see roughly half the CW I team with never use it in favor of presumably higher damage done by their knockbacks. Those CW are the one's I wish to choke with my mind and throw into a bulkhead. If that's the playstyle that maximizes their DPS I can see why CW do not want GWF on their team. With their rotation, no GWF would ever do decent damage in a team with them.
In all fairness, they kill my rogue outright. A big knockback off a cliff at the wrong time and Duelists Fury happily drags me with them.
I do well with a few of the CWs who place their singularities right on me to make my life peachy keen. We absolutely shred trash in CN and I love it. Just no luck on Dracolich yet.
My current stats, fwiw,
GS: 9677
Power 3314
Crit 1371
Arp 1013
Rec 2314
Def 2177
Life 706
Using Reaver's Edge at the moment.
My stats are in flux as I slowly convert from pure power/recovery to arp/crit/power which is where I think I will do well with the instigator build.
Unstoppable 5/5
Disciple of Strength 3/3
Armor Spec 3/3
Con Focus 1/3
Weapon Mastery 2/3
Criticial Bonus 3/3
5/5 Deep Gash
5/5 Student of the Sword
5/5 Unstoppable Recovery
5/5 Vicious Advantage
5/5 Allied Opportunity
5/5 Group Assault
1/1 Instigator Capstone
Guild Leader of MOPP4
MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
I sure don't play GWF.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
It's funny... because that's the comment you chose to reply to. /shakeshead
I'll never understand internet egos.
Reaver's edge is garbage, take Ice Axe if you need something cheap or get the drake greatsword (recommended), it has superior DPS stats.
Are you running full bladestorm? You should double dip t1 set bonuses since your critical strike seems lacking. Crit is a huge part of GWF dps, I'd recommend at least 30% unbuffed for SoTS.
Also I do not understand Envy's picture. Is a GWF wearing T1/pvp gear something to brag about?
I don't even care that he was doing it, but he was caught doing it and denied it. lulzy.
Depends on the build really. But I agree. Unless you're taking instigator cap I wouldn't go for it.
Envy/BieberBoy is a well known sploiter, not really news, but he does have good info from time to time. That is if he can take the time to stop being jerky to people. This is what happens when you write a "guide" and a few people watch some YouTube videos. Suddenly you think you're Phillip Defranco and just start talking down to anyone with any questions on the internets.
Funny thing is he'd probably be a lot more popular and get the "fame" he wants if he just stopped trying to be a tough guy in-game and on the forums. He's got the info. He's got the friends. He's got the leg up on GF experience.
Who doesn't reply to comments directed towards them. It'd be rude not to.~
Yeah it sucks that I got banned for doing that. Oh wait, I didn't get banned because I didn't do it. Funny how things work out.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
I don't care that people know of me. The only reason I made the guide was to shut people up crying about how awful they think their class is. I ought to write one for GWF to shut the new waves of complainers up. Fortunately, rogues arent whining so I can continue to let mine gather dust.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
Have you ever used it while parsing? It accounts for about 8% total damage in the testing I have done and that was with a lower crit. As for crit, my crit rate us still 28.5%, it's not horrible, just not as high as it could be. GWF would be a 10% bonus on at-wills which probably means somewhere in the high 9% area towards total damage when you account for slam, encounters, etc. Deep gash probably does fall behind GWF then, but it's still a good feat. In fact, both feats together are so good I hate to not have them both and go Destroyer because SoTS is a must have obviously and no point being instigator without the capstone.
Guild Leader of MOPP4
MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
I didn't want to see further testing after I saw that so I just immediately specced out of it and put my points elsewhere. My damage didn't really suffer at all as a result since I was doing fine without having specced into the bleed before.
For GWF, there's also the fact that the 10% is extremely consistent, scales with unstoppable really well, and gets better as you gain more power/arp/crit/weapon damage.
Most likely played vs. me.
I've destroyed Wrath the GWF many times in PvP.
What's your IGN? I've only lost 4 matches on my GWF and they were all matches where I got stuck with bots.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah