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Guardian / Great Weapon Fight serve no effective function end-game
gruntpyre
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Preface:
I main a correctly specced Guardian, with close to 13k gear score, modeled off of Rokuthy's PvE hybrid tanking/dps build, am 4/4 Castle Never. I have a 60 TR, 34 wizard, 33 GWF, 28 cleric. Guardians/GWF CAN clear CN but that's irrelevant. The character's name is Xena am I play on the Dragon server. I will upload a ss of a successfully pugged Castle Never if people doubt the validity of my claims.
Argument: Guardians/GWFs have no unique role, and are currently less useful than any other class
DC / TR / CW sit comfortably at the top of the hierarchy for overall strength, ease of play, and ability to gear.
The test of whether a game is out of balance, or if classes are OP/UP isn't whether a great player can make a bad class functional, its whether certain classes excel regardless of the skill of the player, and are the classes seen as 'mandatory.'
In this game, with some of the best gear in the game, and extremely high player skill, I still would not take myself, or another comparable guardian over a rogue, 2nd dc, or CW. At best I simply bring a few stuns, high damage. I am a less efficient control wizard, a less efficient rogue, and suffer from an inability to heal making me not at all analogous to a DC.
The opposites are not true. Appropriately geared CW's can match or exceed damage and usefulness, the same is true for rogues (particularly on single target boss fights), and clerics can gear and stack blue circles with other clerics allowing them to tank and heal. All roles that I could possibly serve are better occupied by other classes.
The only exception to the above claim, and indeed the only scenario I would suggest taking a Guardian over another player is when the delta between gear+skill between the two players is so large that the Guardian is the better choice (and this has to be substantial).
Evidence? Go into Zone chat. Run CN as a Guardian and other classes. Run CN with groups that have Guardians/GWFs and run with groups consisting of the 2 DC / 2 CW / 1 TR composition you see spammed millions of times per day for CN/T2 instance speed clears.
I've recently decided to simply wait for the next patch to resume my Guardian main / GWF alt, and to continue gearing my 60 rogue, leveling my 34 wizard/33 cleric.
The only area of the game where Guardian shines is in twink PvP brackets, or solo leveling. Being able to rock an epic life-ruining tear-inducing grief set of full epics at level 38 is fantastic. I would recommend anyone currently playing Guardian to halt the leveling process at 38, buy epic weapons/Guardian gear sets, and engage in twink pvp (leaving each game before XP is awarded).
TLDR:
1) GF/GWF are underpowered and serve no purpose that can't be filled better by replacing them with 1 of the other 3 classes.
Suggestion for Improvements:
For Guardians, I suggest increasing single-target damage OR providing more group utility (group buff auras) or enemy debuff auras. Increase the effectiveness of taunt and make taunt apply a debuff that lasts longer than the initial taunt, that applies a debuff to the mobs damage reduction OR the mob's damage to players.
For GWFs: I suggest reducing survivability (to balance out the intended role of being a striker type, not defender type in this MMO), increasing aoe damage, and providing unique debuffs that provide a viable contrast to bringing a GWF instead of a CW.
General Recommendations to Group Content for PvE:
Reduce the threat generation of other classes, make ALL Epic enemies hit harder, increase the survivability of guardians to compensate for that, and to punish others for pulling agro.
Also, I'd suggest implementing shorter crowd control times in general, and completely eliminating mobs being able to be knocked to their deaths.
Lastly, I'd remove the ability for the BLUE CIRCLEs to be stacked, and instead make the cooldown longer. This will force players to make a tough choice (bring 2 clerics who then can alternate the blue circle, but not stack it, to have full uptime), but also I'd remove the self-healing debuff penalty that clerics currently possess to make single cleric healing viable end-game, or as an alternative, simply make the blue circle itself only provide extremely enhanced HP regeneration, NOT DR.
I main a correctly specced Guardian, with close to 13k gear score, modeled off of Rokuthy's PvE hybrid tanking/dps build, am 4/4 Castle Never. I have a 60 TR, 34 wizard, 33 GWF, 28 cleric. Guardians/GWF CAN clear CN but that's irrelevant. The character's name is Xena am I play on the Dragon server. I will upload a ss of a successfully pugged Castle Never if people doubt the validity of my claims.
Argument: Guardians/GWFs have no unique role, and are currently less useful than any other class
DC / TR / CW sit comfortably at the top of the hierarchy for overall strength, ease of play, and ability to gear.
The test of whether a game is out of balance, or if classes are OP/UP isn't whether a great player can make a bad class functional, its whether certain classes excel regardless of the skill of the player, and are the classes seen as 'mandatory.'
In this game, with some of the best gear in the game, and extremely high player skill, I still would not take myself, or another comparable guardian over a rogue, 2nd dc, or CW. At best I simply bring a few stuns, high damage. I am a less efficient control wizard, a less efficient rogue, and suffer from an inability to heal making me not at all analogous to a DC.
The opposites are not true. Appropriately geared CW's can match or exceed damage and usefulness, the same is true for rogues (particularly on single target boss fights), and clerics can gear and stack blue circles with other clerics allowing them to tank and heal. All roles that I could possibly serve are better occupied by other classes.
The only exception to the above claim, and indeed the only scenario I would suggest taking a Guardian over another player is when the delta between gear+skill between the two players is so large that the Guardian is the better choice (and this has to be substantial).
Evidence? Go into Zone chat. Run CN as a Guardian and other classes. Run CN with groups that have Guardians/GWFs and run with groups consisting of the 2 DC / 2 CW / 1 TR composition you see spammed millions of times per day for CN/T2 instance speed clears.
I've recently decided to simply wait for the next patch to resume my Guardian main / GWF alt, and to continue gearing my 60 rogue, leveling my 34 wizard/33 cleric.
The only area of the game where Guardian shines is in twink PvP brackets, or solo leveling. Being able to rock an epic life-ruining tear-inducing grief set of full epics at level 38 is fantastic. I would recommend anyone currently playing Guardian to halt the leveling process at 38, buy epic weapons/Guardian gear sets, and engage in twink pvp (leaving each game before XP is awarded).
TLDR:
1) GF/GWF are underpowered and serve no purpose that can't be filled better by replacing them with 1 of the other 3 classes.
Suggestion for Improvements:
For Guardians, I suggest increasing single-target damage OR providing more group utility (group buff auras) or enemy debuff auras. Increase the effectiveness of taunt and make taunt apply a debuff that lasts longer than the initial taunt, that applies a debuff to the mobs damage reduction OR the mob's damage to players.
For GWFs: I suggest reducing survivability (to balance out the intended role of being a striker type, not defender type in this MMO), increasing aoe damage, and providing unique debuffs that provide a viable contrast to bringing a GWF instead of a CW.
General Recommendations to Group Content for PvE:
Reduce the threat generation of other classes, make ALL Epic enemies hit harder, increase the survivability of guardians to compensate for that, and to punish others for pulling agro.
Also, I'd suggest implementing shorter crowd control times in general, and completely eliminating mobs being able to be knocked to their deaths.
Lastly, I'd remove the ability for the BLUE CIRCLEs to be stacked, and instead make the cooldown longer. This will force players to make a tough choice (bring 2 clerics who then can alternate the blue circle, but not stack it, to have full uptime), but also I'd remove the self-healing debuff penalty that clerics currently possess to make single cleric healing viable end-game, or as an alternative, simply make the blue circle itself only provide extremely enhanced HP regeneration, NOT DR.
Post edited by gruntpyre on
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Comments
Well for me in particular, I've already done that. I have 2 60s, 3 30s'ish. However, rerolling won't fix the issue that this game has 2 classes that are inferior to 3 other classes and are irrelevant right now in the structure of group play. I want that issue fixed.
I don't mind rerolling and leveling to 60. I, however, enjoy games that promote tough choices, and do not have a rock-paper-scissors-everyoneelsebad mentality.
That's a fantastic way to state the crux of the power of the cleric.
I'm not sure the power level of the Guardian is out of whack, nor GWF (although GWF should probably do more damage overall), its more of a utility factor, and the fact that defensive utility is irrelevant when Clerics make it so that no one can effectively die, and the control factor from CWs is out of whack with their high damage.
Great post.
I agree with the last part of what you wrote. If mobs did more CC, or hit harder, and if the mechanics I wrote about with healing were adjusted, players would be forced to play better and the instances could be more easily balanced for a group composition of roughly 1 from each class.
I think if you ignore all meters currently, and only monitor group composition success rates as well as clearing times, average success rate/clear time is highest with 2 CW/2DC/1TR.
Thank you for your comments. How would you suggest threat mechanics be tweaked? Anything specific? Are you referring to Guardian threat generation, hard taunts, cleric threat generation?
GWF does tank better with skill players.
Is that a joke ? I do a lot of PU dungeon and so i'm the often the only one cleric ! Yet i have finished Frozen Heart and Spellplague with 4 ppls often the 5th just leave or die pretty fast. And what save my life a LOT of time me and my party is my "Blue circle" aka Astral Shield and if it need a more cooldown just how is it possible to finish a T2 dungeon ?
Since we got this -40% Healing for ourself !!
You seriously want to kill the DC huh ?
IMO i don't think any class need to be nerfed maybe just a little readjustment. And people mentality also need to be changed.
If i got the lead and if it's not a full party of CW or TR i personally don't kick any one until we give a try.
I also got a gwf and i know this is frustrating when you try to go in T2 dungeon and when it come after a long period of queue you got insta kicked out.
The only thing to resolve this, at least to try is to change the queue system and the lead system. Since when you try to do a dungeon in PUG you need to wait so long people feel like just not wasting their time and so are more elitist and strict with the composition.
PS: sorry for my english i'm trying my best...
Now, now this just isn’t so. You are saying clerics die faster than GWF? Do Rogues? Well, okay, yes they do but lets look at it in context.
Let’s use a wipe to figure out who is doing what, shall we?
Lets all agree that a wipe is a wipe, everyone dies. It doesn’t matter who is left standing and then dies. The sum total is everyone dies in a wipe. So let’s get that silliness off the radar.
So let’s look at contribution before the wipe.
Guardian Fighter? Well he is defending and hitting things. No big damage but that’s not really his thing and everyone knows it. He can’t seem to get aggro and that is his thing, but it’s not something he is doing wrong. The class is just botched that way. If we imagine that fixed then he would be doing fine even though the wipe would have to start with him. Poor guy, sorry ‘bout that.
Cleric? Well he is healing people and laying down some interesting AOE damage. His heals aren’t enough to sustain people in the real thick of things but if the GF could get some aggro, the rest of the party would be doing great. Unfortunately we all know about the aggro bug and its love of sweet cleric flesh. In this model the cleric gets trampled and eaten immediately but he was doing just exactly what he was supposed to be doing and in absence of the bug would have been keeping the DPS toons rolling like a donut vender at the policeman’s ball.
Control wizard? He is doing pretty well. The control part of his name is really only any good for minions but that counts. He still does great damage and even though he dies ignominiously in this wipe, there is no doubt that he is doing what he is supposed to be doing and if the cleric could have stayed in the realm of the living, the CW could have been pumping out damage from the back while whistling Ride of the Valkyrie with impunity pausing only occasionally for a cackle of pure vicious laughter.
Rogue? He is a killing machine, a murder factory in snazzy boots. Sure being melee has its limitations but with the heals coming and all the mobs chewing on either the GF or the cleric it’s just a barrel-bound duck shoot in here. He can see the wipe coming but that just makes him want to kill more and faster. Take as many with you as you can, death and blades are the coins of the rogue, and he wants to be generous. Of all the deaths his is the most frustrating because he could have taken them, he could have taken them all!
The GWF? Well, no one is very certain what he is doing. He is zipping around to stay out of the red circles and hitting lots of mobs. If cleric aggro is ever fixed he will be eating facefulls of hate but at the moment he just gets to swing away and no one really notices. The Rogue is blazing down bosses and swatting minions on accident, the CW is dropping implosion bombs and shooting lazers and snatching up hapless mini-bosses , the cleric is giving out the green and calling down the fire and even the GF is huddled down taking his appointed beating.
But what is the GWF doing? Debuffing? Crowd Control? Damage? Is there any function that someone else isn’t doing better, much, much better? In what way would a party be better with a GWF than without one? Damage is what he has to work with. Calling his knock-down utility is like calling the GF’s charge a movement power. His choices are, hit them, hit them again and hit them some more. And the final quotient will be not that he was doing his job but did it matter.
In this scenario, when the GWF dies he will likely die last because none of the mobs noticed he was hitting them until everyone else was dead. And when they take the sword away from him and hide it in the dark, the GWF will know that he never could have taken them, never could have controlled them, couldn’t compete with anyone else in any part of the party dynamic.
And he will likely appreciate the rest.
So I think the gist is for Cryptic to change this dynamic. Make the GWF useful or alternately give them a nice singing voice so they can entertain the party during those dark times when the mobs come flooding down the hallway and things look bleak.
Since they will be the last to die let that TROLOLOL LA LA LOL LA LA LOL ring out and keep those spirits up.
Don’t worry you guys will get ‘em next time.
Greatweapon Cheerleaders for life!
That's pretty much it, everything can be dodged or soaked by any class if the party comp has few specific ability on the bar. Every group can patch the lack of tank, while tank doesn't bring either damage, control, protection, heal or combination of those in required amount to actually compensate for the lack of a Rogue, cleric or wizard. GF is master of nothing, he brings something on the table that's not needed in the current dungeons mechanics, the same way we would feel CW is useless if there was no single adds in the entire instance and pits to knock off mob into.
Dungeons mechanics need to make GF more desirable, rather than GF need a buff to be desired in Dungeons. Before balancing him, remodel him or buff him, i would try to find an answer to: "What should be the GF role in instance? and how Dungeons should be designed to make him as useful as the other classes/roles"
I might be out of the loop but what did they change besides your unintended immortality? Or are you thinking it was working as designed?
Class balance requires buffing and nerfing, every MMO does this. I'll just be honest and say that cleric needs a nerf and a buff. Blue circle needs nerfed and changed. Cleric needs a self-healing buff.
Oh wait so Astral shield isn't op as enough
Aren't rogue damage over top and the throw they got kills me alot while im a plate user lolz
Cws cc and other abilities are godlikes they are demi-gods
All i can say either revert fix or bring us up to the lvl enough to acually 1-2 hit people like the rest
Crazy gotta be crazy.
Thoughts on that? To restate; buff GWF's damage against more heavily armored foes or penalize rogues against heavily armored foes. Add more heavily armored foes to game.